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Jonnyb

Demonology, correct use of procs?

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I've been pushing top 20-50 parses as Demonology in very limited normal and LFR runs...I would have pushed the number 7 Demo parse on Heroic Protectors last night if I hadn't switched to Affliction to try to make up for mistakes made and missing the berserk timer (DPS letting stacks fall off, getting hit by Lightning Storm, etc.) That said, here's how I find doing maximum DPS viable as Demonology.

Opener: Curse of Elements, Dark Soul, Corruption, Hand of Guldan, Grimoire of Service, Hand of Guldan, Meta, Doom, Touch of Chaos, Doom, cancel Meta, Soulfire to use up Molten Core procs (between 2 and 3), then default back to basic rotation.

The rotation is much more dynamic than one might originally think. Using Shadowbolt as a "filler" won't happen nearly as often as you think with proper use of Molten Core procs. You basically want to be spamming Soulfire as long as you have Molten Core charges. Here are some notes that I feel should be noted:

1) Always use Soulfire when you have procs in caster form, not in Meta form. Your Demonic Fury is too valuable to be using on Soulfire.

2) Use Hand of Guldan when you have 1 charge of it and the 2nd charge coming in about 3 seconds. The way I get my two stack of Shadowflame is to use Hand of Guldan, Soulfire, Soulfire, Hand of Guldan, Meta. This allows me to empower the 2nd Hand of Guldan and its subsequent Shadowflame while using two charges of Molten Core for faster Soulfires. With my haste level, Soulfire's MC cast time is 1.7 seconds giving me sufficient time to clip the first Shadowflame and make the 2nd stack last as long as possible.

3) Always use Metamorphosis to reapply Corruption. When Corruption is below 12 seconds and you notice a spell power increase (use Affdots for Demo, too), pop into Meta and use Touch of Chaos three times. This will serve two purposes: reapply Corruption with increased spell power and dump your likely close to capping Demonic Fury.

4) Never ever sit at 1000 Demonic Fury. As you approach 850-900, think about popping into Meta for a couple of uses of Touch of Chaos. With Dark Soul up and Touch of Chaos spam with an applicatinon or two of Doom, you really only need about 650 Demonic Fury for that burn phase. Plan accordingly as you notice Dark Soul coming off cooldown

5) I'm finding Glyph of Imp Swarm to be an overall DPS loss. The penalties ensued by glyphing it are a bit harsh. Keep the glyph for PvP, but leave it at home for PvE.

I'm finding Demo to be incredibly fun to play...the AoE components are astounding. On Windlord, having Doom up on all 7 of your targets creates a lot of Imps as well as high DF generation. Properly clipping Shadowflame and using Molten Core procs are as important as managing the spell power of your DoTs as Affliction. Having empowered Doom up is a huge buff as well. More will come on specific encounters in 5.2 as I dive into them.

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5) I'm finding Glyph of Imp Swarm to be an overall DPS loss. The penalties ensued by glyphing it are a bit harsh. Keep the glyph for PvP, but leave it at home for PvE.

I'm having a hard time believing that a glyph that allows to us take advantage the most of our DS burst phases would be a DPS loss. Is the bonus damage our imps gain from procs/DS not that huge?

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I'm having a hard time believing that a glyph that allows to us take advantage the most of our DS burst phases would be a DPS loss. Is the bonus damage our imps gain from procs/DS not that huge?

Imp Swarm pulls 5 Imps out at one time. They all shoot their lazers 10 times then despawn and you have no Imps for about a minute and a half. Haste affects the 2 minute cooldown (I think mine is 1.74 minutes) and makes it so unless you use it on CD, you're wasting uptime. If you choose to simply use it for burn phases, the cooldown of Demonic Calling is increased by 4 seconds after the CD from the actual glyph passes. The burst in Meta form with Dark Soul does not require the extra emphasis of Imp Swarm. They generate more DF during your burn phase, but they actually create too much. Using the glyph also stunts your Demonic Fury growth during non burn phases decreasing your overall Meta uptime. Without it glyphed, Wild Imps: Firebolt is usually my third or fourth highest damage source. Testing it Simcraft shows about a 1.5k DPS loss glyphing Imp Swarm. This is a similar effect if you choose Grimoire of Service over Grimoire of Supremacy. Supremacy is nice if you don't want to have to worry about another CD...similar to not glyphing Imp Swarm. If there is a part of a fight where increased damage happens (I'm looking at you, Heroic Windlord Mel'jarak), then glyphing Imp Swarm may be a net DPS gain. In a Patchwerk type fight, you won't see Imp Swarm do you any favors.

http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/mal'ganis/zagam/ Listing of all my Demo logs recently. You can see here how much damage the Imps do continuously.

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U think use Supremacy - besides fights with extra dmg phase - it's just a small dps loss? Because if the increase of Dps with Service be less then 1% I'd like to go Supremacy and have one less thing to worry about.

And The Imp Swarm Glyph it's just a DPS Gain if u wait 1 imp to summon b4 use the CD, if u use on CD, it's a dps loss indead, besides the "extra dmg phase fight" case.

Edited by JvChequer

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If there is a part of a fight where increased damage happens (I'm looking at you, Heroic Windlord Mel'jarak), then glyphing Imp Swarm may be a net DPS gain. In a Patchwerk type fight, you won't see Imp Swarm do you any favors.

http://raidbots.com/...39;ganis/zagam/ Listing of all my Demo logs recently. You can see here how much damage the Imps do continuously.

Hmm, interesting. I just always assumed that 5-6 super powered imps would trump more consistent, less powerful imps.

I do hear you on the time wasted waiting for DS to come back up while Imp Swarm is off CD, but what about Service? How is that lining up for you? Are you only using it with DS or on CD?

Edited by Omaric

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Service and Supremacy currently are VERY close as in less than 1%. Hard to say if that'll change. For fights with increased damage time, Service will take over by a larger amount.

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Hmm, interesting. I just always assumed that 5-6 super powered imps would trump more consistent, less powerful imps.

I do hear you on the time wasted waiting for DS to come back up and not using imps. I realize that's definitely a waste, but what about Service. How is that lining up for you? Are you only using it with DS or on CD?

The thing to remember about Demonology is Mastery scales like this...

1% in caster form

1% for pets

3% for Metamorphosis form

So Mastery scales 3x more for your personal damage in Metamorphosis. Your pets don't really see as much of an increase during Dark Soul due to the different scaling. As for Service usage, it depends on fight mechanics. As you can see from my logs, I've had barely 2 weeks to play around with Demonology. However, I can see particular uses being better than on cooldown use simply due to fight mechanics. With an 80 second Dark Soul CD, Dark Soul will only line up with every 3rd Grimoire of Service use, and it's DEFINITELY not worth delaying for 40 seconds every 2 minutes.

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Speaking of demonology, what is/will be the best secondary stat priority for now/5.2. I remeber Zagam said haste=mastery> crit because crit scaling was awful, I was searching a while ago and I found out mastery=crit>haste. I know haste is bad for demo because ToC spam doesn't scale with haste so if crit scaling is bad I would expect mastery>haste>crit. I'm really confused about secondary stats right now as you see. With the last nerf to affliction I'm considering to gem for demo(I always reforge when I try) and learn but I need some help and I would appreciate any help.

I never said that Haste = Mastery > Crit for Demonology. I said that I would be USING that reforge because of the cost and misery to constant reforging. I dislike Crit, so even if the stat weights change, I'll still prefer Haste over Crit even if everyone else blindly follows stat weights. Remember, and I don't know how many times I've said it, but your secondary stats are such a small amount of DPS variance that you really should be focused on mechanics.

DPS = 90% mechanics, 10% secondary stats

Community concern = 90% secondary stats, 10% mechanics

THIS IS THE ISSUE WITH MANY PEOPLES' DPS!!!

I'll reiterate an earlier calculation I made to show you why focusing on secondary stats isn't worth the time it took you to read this statement.

Right now, Demo's stat weights for a 500 ilvl Warlock is Mastery = 1.92, Crit = 1.91, Haste = 1.60. Let's say I prefer to keep my 6600 Haste and 1200 Crit instead of shoving 3k of it into Crit. You could see it like this...

Crit = 1290 x 1.92 = 2476.8

Haste = 6600 x 1.60 = 10560

Total = 13036.8 DPS

Crit = 4290 x 1.92 = 8236.8

Haste = 3600 x 1.60 = 5760

Total = 13996.8 DPS

Total Difference = <1,000. For numbers purpose, should be doing at least 110k DPS at 500 ilvl, so your theoretical change here is less than 1%. Therefore, your stat weights are not critical enough to worry about. You are allowed to focus on PLAYSTYLE. My preferred playstyle is Haste, so I take Haste and Mastery over Crit and Mastery. Haste has added benefits like being able to use 2 Soulfires in between Hand of Guldan casts that allow for near perfect clipping and optimizing that DPS.

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Total Difference = <1,000. For numbers purpose, should be doing at least 110k DPS at 500 ilvl, so your theoretical change here is less than 1%. Therefore, your stat weights are not critical enough to worry about. You are allowed to focus on PLAYSTYLE. My preferred playstyle is Haste, so I take Haste and Mastery over Crit and Mastery. Haste has added benefits like being able to use 2 Soulfires in between Hand of Guldan casts that allow for near perfect clipping and optimizing that DPS.

With the haste you're rocking you can fit a Shadowbolt and Soulfire between HoG casts. I know I can with less haste. That ensures that you get as much Shadowflame uptime as possible. It's also nice if you only have 1 Molten Core proc available. Maybe you already do this, but just in case. =)

Also, there are threads devoted to stat weights all over the internet. You have one as well in these forums. I think it gives a lot of people the wrong impression on what should be important. Obviously, in a perfect world, people would look shit up for themselves, but who has time to improve!? =P

Edited by Omaric

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Stat weights ARE a good way to find out how well certain stats stack for classes. However, they're all tied with talents and playstyle. Haste caps don't mean much to players who play Affliction perfectly. If you let stacks run their duration and clip them like Shadow Priests do, then Haste caps are mega important. Certain classes have a really high dependency on secondary stats (Fire Mage) but in the case of Warlocks, I don't see that being too strong of a claim.

And yeah, I can fit two casts in regardless of what they are. One of the things I noticed I failed at was getting Hand of Guldan to put Shadowflame on the charges in LFR...not sure if Hand won't reach them, if my timing was off, or if I needed to have Mannoroth's Fury to make it happen. Good thing it won't matter in two weeks...haha

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Depends on the fight. For a fight like Wind Lord, I spend time putting Corruption on each mob and use Void Ray to refresh it. Void Ray is my typical dump once Immolation Aura is up and running...unless the adds will be alive for some time, then I'll apply Doom to each one. I never use Chaos Wave as I find the DF gain and damage of Hand of Guldan + Shadowflame to be too good. Single target, I spend a majority of my time in Meta using Touch of Chaos. I think single target damage parses should have ToC coming out as your best damage source.

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Starting to think this spec isn't for me.

I just feel like it has no burst, like if I switch onto a mob that has low health I have nothing to do at all.

Multi dotting is horrible, my opinion my change on boss fights but corruption just feels so hard to manage on trash pulls, too many mobs, having to maintain doom, having to use HoG to get 2 stacks as often as I can.

There really is too much going on, facerolling GoSac is far easier than this!

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Starting to think this spec isn't for me.

I just feel like it has no burst, like if I switch onto a mob that has low health I have nothing to do at all.

Multi dotting is horrible, my opinion my change on boss fights but corruption just feels so hard to manage on trash pulls, too many mobs, having to maintain doom, having to use HoG to get 2 stacks as often as I can.

There really is too much going on, facerolling GoSac is far easier than this!

This is almost verbatim what I expect from the Warlock community. Nothing against your playstyle or skill, but I fear that many players won't dive into Demonology and will continue playing what they already know. The result will be what you already see on the forums...massive amounts of tears filling bucket after bucket crying that we aren't viable anymore. Couldn't be further from the truth, but you can never make people believe anything.

I love Demonology BECAUSE of all the stuff you have to think about. You still have to manage Demonic Fury on top of everything else...you always have burst in terms of swapping into Meta and delivering instant Shadowbolts in the form of Touch of Chaos. Your AoE is the highest in the game if done properly. Sure you'll see Frost DKs doing just as much with far fewer buttons...but they can't touch your sustained AoE over time. You have to keep track of so many CDs and resources while maintaining uptime on 2 DoTs while casting the correct filler. I feel that optimized Demonology Warlocks will be very competitive next tier. Affliction is just that it's too easy to play once you get Affdots. This is why Afflictions numbers are astronomically high...Blizz never intended for you to be able to see that sort of information on the fly. It removes all micromanagement and just essentially tells you what to do and when to do it. Demonology will be all player resources aside from your Doom application.

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I see your point, i'm pulling stupidly high numbers as affliction as i've got it town to a T, not to imply that it was a challenging thing to do.

I can't ever remember struggling with affliction ever though, and demo has totally done one over on me,.

This is purely my opinion but managing corr/doom on all targets is really horrible to do, it feels so much more streamline with affi, void ray is extremely unreliable too, really selective in what it targets, demo needs something to get corr on everything, it would get the ball rolling much faster.

Pretty subjective rant this has been, but hey-ho, I always feel like there is something I can be doing as affi, and demo just doesn't have that, I find myself staring at my hotbar for a second or 2, and i'm not even using GoServ/impswarm as i'd rather I had sustained dps as opposed to burst as trinket procs are a harsh mistress.

*Edit* Should really re-read by previous posts to stop repeating myself and sounding like a silly goose

Edited by Jonnyb

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hahaha, no need to re-read. That's what I enjoy about Warlocks...chaos within our rotations! If Demo were given an ability to instantly apply Corruption, it's AoE would get instantly out of hand. Trinket procs are just a bonus with Demo...you don't manage Corruption as Touch of Chaos does that for you and Doom should only be cared about once every 90 seconds. Affliction is easy to master...it's only got what, 6 buttons to worry about? Demo is much more intricate...we'll see how the parsing comes. I'm horrible in C++ language, so I'm waiting on the boys at Simcraft to finish building the new gear into the models. I don't care about their stat weights and such...I want to come up with those. Mine are always different than theirs anyways.

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I see your point, i'm pulling stupidly high numbers as affliction as i've got it town to a T, not to imply that it was a challenging thing to do.

I can't ever remember struggling with affliction ever though, and demo has totally done one over on me,.

This is purely my opinion but managing corr/doom on all targets is really horrible to do, it feels so much more streamline with affi, void ray is extremely unreliable too, really selective in what it targets, demo needs something to get corr on everything, it would get the ball rolling much faster.

Pretty subjective rant this has been, but hey-ho, I always feel like there is something I can be doing as affi, and demo just doesn't have that, I find myself staring at my hotbar for a second or 2, and i'm not even using GoServ/impswarm as i'd rather I had sustained dps as opposed to burst as trinket procs are a harsh mistress.

*Edit* Should really re-read by previous posts to stop repeating myself and sounding like a silly goose

you don't HAVE to do all that. I put Corr on like 3 targets, don't use Doom at all, and use Immo Aura + Harvest Life... couple that with HoG when I have it and pet AoE.... I pull top AoE numbers while yawning.... If I actually TRIED (using Doom, putting Corr on more targets, using Void Ray)... it'd be DUMB.

I've personally always loved Warlock because it was a skill based class more so than a lot of others. Lots of managing DoTs and pets, creating macros and what not... It's been fun. I am happy that Demo is so not straight forward. It's keeping me thinking and makes me know I can always be better! Hell I'm pulling like 70k now in crap gear (I only LFR... don't feel like giving up my life for raiding anymore) and the warlock in my guild I often run with is only pulling 76k as affliction in WAY better gear than me (he has a weekly raid, uses flasks and double pots of which I refuse to do in LFR). Granted... he should be doing more, I don't know what he's doing wrong. But it makes me feel good that I tend to sit near the top of the meters in a spec everyone says is shit now. With 5.2 I'll get to laugh in all their faces :P my hard work will pay off!

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hahaha, no need to re-read. That's what I enjoy about Warlocks...chaos within our rotations! If Demo were given an ability to instantly apply Corruption, it's AoE would get instantly out of hand. Trinket procs are just a bonus with Demo...you don't manage Corruption as Touch of Chaos does that for you and Doom should only be cared about once every 90 seconds. Affliction is easy to master...it's only got what, 6 buttons to worry about? Demo is much more intricate...we'll see how the parsing comes. I'm horrible in C++ language, so I'm waiting on the boys at Simcraft to finish building the new gear into the models. I don't care about their stat weights and such...I want to come up with those. Mine are always different than theirs anyways.

I totally agree with you on the corruption thing, it would be functional, but out of hand,

After tonights raid I think I got it slightly better, just need to get used to it.

One thing I found was that I was holding back using HoG if I had dark soul coming up in 30 secs, unsure if this is the right thing to do.

I was also using Meta whenever I used my 2nd HoG, which left me never ever having this 700-800 DF phase that is expressed in most guides.

That being said when I used meta on my 2nd HoG I think I was dumping all my DF.

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I love Demonology BECAUSE of all the stuff you have to think about. You still have to manage Demonic Fury on top of everything else...you always have burst in terms of swapping into Meta and delivering instant Shadowbolts in the form of Touch of Chaos. Your AoE is the highest in the game if done properly. Sure you'll see Frost DKs doing just as much with far fewer buttons...but they can't touch your sustained AoE over time. You have to keep track of so many CDs and resources while maintaining uptime on 2 DoTs while casting the correct filler. I feel that optimized Demonology Warlocks will be very competitive next tier. Affliction is just that it's too easy to play once you get Affdots. This is why Afflictions numbers are astronomically high...Blizz never intended for you to be able to see that sort of information on the fly. It removes all micromanagement and just essentially tells you what to do and when to do it. Demonology will be all player resources aside from your Doom application.

I guess I don't read any other forums besides looking at MMO-C's blue tracker so I haven't seen a lot of QQ going on, but I can definitely imagine that it's there in full force. I don't mind not using GoSac. It definitely made life a lot easier and I've always liked the idea of me bringing the damage and not my pet, but in the end it doesn't matter.

I've been running Demo as much as I can here in 5mans and LFRs and a random Sha group or two. Its fun! I'll have to agree with someone who posted earlier that I'll find myself sitting there not knowing what to do at times, but I'll chalk that up to not being accustomed to the spec yet.

My current playstyle concerns:

1) I'm worried that I'm doing things that maybe I shouldn't be. I'm not 100% sure on that yet, but I'm doing things like switching to Meta after casting a 2nd HoG and refreshing Corr with ToC then popping out. Every minute my procs line up and I'll jump in to meta to burn DF and ToC spam while they're active. Often I'll get to a DS phase with 500-600 DF which is definitely a fair amount that can last me for most of the duration, but its just not optimal and I'll have to Meta dance at the end to ensure I can apply Doom before DS wears off.

2) I still don't have a 4pc so my Doom runs out at an awkward time before DS comes off CD, forcing me to jump in to Meta and reapply 10-15 seconds before DS is ready. This is something that most people will be facing as they drop their t14 4pc in 5.2 so I'm sure strategies will come out to handle that better. Is it okay to let Doom drop form your target for the 4-5 seconds it would take to set up your burst phase?

3) Ending a DF burn phase can be awkward in that I'm never 100% sure when I'm going to be out of DF. I'll be spamming ToC then be forced out of Meta in to a shadowbolt cast when I should probably be casting a soulfire to use up a MC proc. Are you guys manually exiting Meta once you get low or are you waiting to get kicked out? Would it be worth it to throw a cancelaura macro on to Soulfire to help with this?

Again these aren't complaints, just hitches in the playstyle that I haven't figured out yet.

Overall Its definitely a high performing spec and Its probably not something people should be judging until they get their buffs. Players seem to be worried about how they're performing, or that they don't have burst, but they forget that they'll be getting a huge boost in 5.2 which is why we're practicing now. I'm more concerned about getting the mechanics/fundamentals down before 5.2 hits so I can properly judge how the changes feel to me personally once the patch goes live. If it turns out that I'm still way better at playing Aff than Demo, to a point where my damage output is noticeably better in Aff, I'll probably stick with it. I want to make sure I'm playing Demo at a competent level to be able to make that call though.

Edited by Cruzan

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