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Damien

Heroes of the Storm Gall

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This thread is for comments about our Gall build guide for Heroes of the Storm.

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So I heavily disagree with Twisting Neather being outright dismissed as an option. Shadowfury is an amazing heroic for taking down structures and does a great deal of single target damage when it hits, but it can be unreliable and has some pretty significant anti-synergy with upheaval (which throws all targets behind Cho). Twisting Neather does much less single target damage, but when combined with upheaval it can literally wipe entire teams. The fact that it has a built in wombo combo with upheaval is more then enough to warrant consideration. It's also a respectable AOE on it's own, but given it has a longer CD then upheaval, the two should pretty much always be used in conjunction. I will grant that twisting neather is pointless if Cho goes with the stun hammer.

 

Shove is another talent that deserves a second look. You know Vault, right? That Valla ability that instantly repositions you? Well Shove is basically that. It instantly repositions Cho'Gall wherever you want. This can be used to avoid skill shots, run away, as a secondary gap closer, and is all around extremely versatile in it's application. Granted, positioning is less important to Cho'Gall then it is to Valla, but the usefulness of giving them an instant dash should not be underestimated. It's especially useful at avoiding aoes like Johanna's circle and Jaina's Blizzard.

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So I heavily disagree with Twisting Neather being outright dismissed as an option. Shadowfury is an amazing heroic for taking down structures and does a great deal of single target damage when it hits, but it can be unreliable and has some pretty significant anti-synergy with upheaval (which throws all targets behind Cho). Twisting Neather does much less single target damage, but when combined with upheaval it can literally wipe entire teams. The fact that it has a built in wombo combo with upheaval is more then enough to warrant consideration. It's also a respectable AOE on it's own, but given it has a longer CD then upheaval, the two should pretty much always be used in conjunction. I will grant that twisting neather is pointless if Cho goes with the stun hammer.

 

Shove is another talent that deserves a second look. You know Vault, right? That Valla ability that instantly repositions you? Well Shove is basically that. It instantly repositions Cho'Gall wherever you want. This can be used to avoid skill shots, run away, as a secondary gap closer, and is all around extremely versatile in it's application. Granted, positioning is less important to Cho'Gall then it is to Valla, but the usefulness of giving them an instant dash should not be underestimated. It's especially useful at avoiding aoes like Johanna's circle and Jaina's Blizzard.

 

Good insight. After playing more, I've come to the same conclusion as you on both points. I'll be updating the guide shortly.

Here's a short clip featuring myself and Shove (and why I actually like the talent now): 

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Nice play on that Kerrigan there. As I mentioned in the Cho guide, Shove -> Z basically takes the place of Q as your dedicated escape, allowing for more offensive use of Q (I try to keep positioning related stuff in the Cho guide because it makes more sense). A couple other notes on Gall talents though.

 

For level 7, consider taking Dark Descent. 20% extra damage on Runic Blast is no joke and when combined with Runic Gauntlet it gives Cho'Gall patently ludicrous amounts of burst. Dark Descent is much stronger then your average snowball talent because getting 4 takedowns is trivial and will likely happen in your average teamfight. Cho'Gall is the perfect user of such an ability too, as your huge healthpool combined with your deceptive mobility options means that you simply should not be dieing, ever, so losing stacks is unlikely and rare.

 

As for level 4 talents, you have sold me on the joys of double back, however I will note that taking it does mean that your blobs won't go as far, which is a disadvantage if you want to play the long range poke game. Since Runic Persistence is an unadulterated piece of garbage, that leaves bomb's away, which gives your bombs a rather significant range upgrade. I'd say in most situations, double back is still probably better, but there is merit to playing the long range poke game (like trying to not die to leoric for instance).

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Nice play on that Kerrigan there. As I mentioned in the Cho guide, Shove -> Z basically takes the place of Q as your dedicated escape, allowing for more offensive use of Q (I try to keep positioning related stuff in the Cho guide because it makes more sense). A couple other notes on Gall talents though.

 

For level 7, consider taking Dark Descent. 20% extra damage on Runic Blast is no joke and when combined with Runic Gauntlet it gives Cho'Gall patently ludicrous amounts of burst. Dark Descent is much stronger then your average snowball talent because getting 4 takedowns is trivial and will likely happen in your average teamfight. Cho'Gall is the perfect user of such an ability too, as your huge healthpool combined with your deceptive mobility options means that you simply should not be dieing, ever, so losing stacks is unlikely and rare.

 

As for level 4 talents, you have sold me on the joys of double back, however I will note that taking it does mean that your blobs won't go as far, which is a disadvantage if you want to play the long range poke game. Since Runic Persistence is an unadulterated piece of garbage, that leaves bomb's away, which gives your bombs a rather significant range upgrade. I'd say in most situations, double back is still probably better, but there is merit to playing the long range poke game (like trying to not die to leoric for instance).

 

Yup, we've also started running Dark Descent, partly because it's easier to stay alive, and partly because we're just better at the hero. The Cho'gall buffs really helped his build diversity. I'll consign all of this in time.

 

I'm glad you started to appreciate Double Back. That thing is completely underrated, and I can understand why it seems like a poor choice at a first glance.

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So new patch brought good news and bad news. Good news is that bans are now a thing making it harder to counterpick Cho'Gall in ranked. Bad news is that reworked Tychus has level 1 Giant Slayer and is actually pretty hard to blow up, making him one of the few legitimate Cho'Gall counters. The worst news is that Cho'Gall is now bugged so that you cannot detonate rune bomb while using shadowbolt fury, pretty much eliminating his teamfight potential should you choose that ult (I'm personally partial to upheaval/neather, but the removal of a previously viable ulti is a nerf that cannot be understated)

 

imo these are the things that hard counter Cho Gall

 

1. Leoric: tanky, %health damage, and entomb all work to make this guy a nightmare to fight against as Cho'Gall, avoid at all costs.

 

2. Anub'arak: Cacoon takes Cho'Gall out of the fight for an unacceptable amount of time and is nearly impossible to avoid. Zagara is similarly troublesome, but unlike anub, she has no real mobility and is squishy, making her a fairly easy target for upheaval/neather. Anub has enough mobility and tankyness to avoid being bursted in this manner.

 

3. Tychus?: I need to play more games against reworked Tychus to be certain, but level 1 giant slayer + tankyness + self peel really harms Cho's ability to bully him in the early game.

 

 

I do not consider Rayner to be a counter to Cho'Gall simply because prior to level 10 you can literally walk all over him and he can't do much about it while later in the game he has no real way to avoid upheaval, bringing him into your team to get blown up before giant slayer becomes a factor. I actually consider him a rather poor choice to fight Cho'Gall.

 

I do not consider Butcher or Illidan to be counters because literally everyone loses 1v1 to them post 10 and Cho'Gall has plenty of tools to avoid being in a 1v1 situation with either of these foes. Cho'Gall has enough health to survive any burst these foes can bring against him and enough mobility to escape to wherever he needs to. Not to mention that auto attacks spent on Cho'Gall are auto attacks not being spent on your squishies, so getting focuesed by either of these heroes in teamfights is usually a recipe for victory (unless they are super ahead, in which case you just need to pray for a solid ambush to take them by surprise)

 

Hopefully Blizz will fix the ulti bug soon so that I can get back to stomping ranked with Cho'Gall.

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So new patch brought good news and bad news. Good news is that bans are now a thing making it harder to counterpick Cho'Gall in ranked. Bad news is that reworked Tychus has level 1 Giant Slayer and is actually pretty hard to blow up, making him one of the few legitimate Cho'Gall counters. The worst news is that Cho'Gall is now bugged so that you cannot detonate rune bomb while using shadowbolt fury, pretty much eliminating his teamfight potential should you choose that ult (I'm personally partial to upheaval/neather, but the removal of a previously viable ulti is a nerf that cannot be understated)

 

imo these are the things that hard counter Cho Gall

 

1. Leoric: tanky, %health damage, and entomb all work to make this guy a nightmare to fight against as Cho'Gall, avoid at all costs.

 

2. Anub'arak: Cacoon takes Cho'Gall out of the fight for an unacceptable amount of time and is nearly impossible to avoid. Zagara is similarly troublesome, but unlike anub, she has no real mobility and is squishy, making her a fairly easy target for upheaval/neather. Anub has enough mobility and tankyness to avoid being bursted in this manner.

 

3. Tychus?: I need to play more games against reworked Tychus to be certain, but level 1 giant slayer + tankyness + self peel really harms Cho's ability to bully him in the early game.

 

 

I do not consider Rayner to be a counter to Cho'Gall simply because prior to level 10 you can literally walk all over him and he can't do much about it while later in the game he has no real way to avoid upheaval, bringing him into your team to get blown up before giant slayer becomes a factor. I actually consider him a rather poor choice to fight Cho'Gall.

 

I do not consider Butcher or Illidan to be counters because literally everyone loses 1v1 to them post 10 and Cho'Gall has plenty of tools to avoid being in a 1v1 situation with either of these foes. Cho'Gall has enough health to survive any burst these foes can bring against him and enough mobility to escape to wherever he needs to. Not to mention that auto attacks spent on Cho'Gall are auto attacks not being spent on your squishies, so getting focuesed by either of these heroes in teamfights is usually a recipe for victory (unless they are super ahead, in which case you just need to pray for a solid ambush to take them by surprise)

 

Hopefully Blizz will fix the ulti bug soon so that I can get back to stomping ranked with Cho'Gall.

 

I've come to similar conclusions and will be updating the guide within the next few weeks. Thanks for the post - I more or less agree with most of it. I don't believe Tychus to be good against him, despite the true damage; that requires sustaining attacks, and with his short range, that's asking to get poked to the grave.

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So I want to ask for your advice on something, what kinds of teamcomps does Cho'Gall like to play with and against? I've been playing more Cho'Gall then before thanks to bans + bug fix and I've notice that games generally come down to team comp/team cohesion more then anything else.

 

From my experiences, he can do well in 2 comps. First is the dive comp, just because he can Q in, hammer people around to disrupt their formation, and mop up the most out of position enemy. The other is the wombo comp, where he upheaval-neathers a large portion of the enemy team into himself and the rest of the team follows up for an easy wipe. I've found that he pairs extremely well with rehgar due to his burst heals, but he does not do so well with dedicated tanks like Johanna (just not enough damage). He's not great at being solo melee, so I feel like he needs a bruiser to help peel for the squishies.

 

The main guys I've had particular success with are Rehgar, Xul(Poison Nova has nice synergy with upheaval-neather and can make it difficult for the enemy team to recover. Also Bruiser with hard CC), Jaina, Medic, and KT.

 

As for bad games, generally he doesn't do so well against teams with multiple bruisers. Cho'Gall relies heavily on their abilities to deal damage and damage output decreases significantly when CDs are down. I wonder if there are playstyle adjustments to be made for different teamcomps. As mentioned before he doesn't like being the only tank very much, but if you have a hard tank like Johanna or Chen I've found the team just doesn't do enough damage.

 

What have your experiences with him been like as far as fitting him into teams go?

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I hope Blizzard give him a rework someday. All builds are the same bread and butter, he lacks diversity and the right tools to be a real threat. While he has great stage presence, having one less Hero on the team should make Cho'gall stronger as two heroes combined; yet he fails to deliver that. I love playing as Gall and I have a good friend who is an awesome Cho, but he doesn't have much presence in the meta and is so easily countered. That saddens me.

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On 5/14/2016 at 10:08 PM, WebBowser said:

So I want to ask for your advice on something, what kinds of teamcomps does Cho'Gall like to play with and against? I've been playing more Cho'Gall then before thanks to bans + bug fix and I've notice that games generally come down to team comp/team cohesion more then anything else.

 

From my experiences, he can do well in 2 comps. First is the dive comp, just because he can Q in, hammer people around to disrupt their formation, and mop up the most out of position enemy. The other is the wombo comp, where he upheaval-neathers a large portion of the enemy team into himself and the rest of the team follows up for an easy wipe. I've found that he pairs extremely well with rehgar due to his burst heals, but he does not do so well with dedicated tanks like Johanna (just not enough damage). He's not great at being solo melee, so I feel like he needs a bruiser to help peel for the squishies.

 

The main guys I've had particular success with are Rehgar, Xul(Poison Nova has nice synergy with upheaval-neather and can make it difficult for the enemy team to recover. Also Bruiser with hard CC), Jaina, Medic, and KT.

 

As for bad games, generally he doesn't do so well against teams with multiple bruisers. Cho'Gall relies heavily on their abilities to deal damage and damage output decreases significantly when CDs are down. I wonder if there are playstyle adjustments to be made for different teamcomps. As mentioned before he doesn't like being the only tank very much, but if you have a hard tank like Johanna or Chen I've found the team just doesn't do enough damage.

 

What have your experiences with him been like as far as fitting him into teams go?

Surprisingly enough, I find that Cho'gall works with and against most team compositions. I will, however, go ahead and (pompously) say that my typical partner and I play an excessively... solid Cho'gall. In a lot of cases, our win condition has quite literally been in getting a lot of value out of our heroic abilities (i.e. ripping 1-2 kills away), or reaching level 20 with Gift of C'thun. They're definitely key in winning with Cho'gall.

On 12/6/2016 at 6:06 PM, Valhalen said:

I hope Blizzard give him a rework someday. All builds are the same bread and butter, he lacks diversity and the right tools to be a real threat. While he has great stage presence, having one less Hero on the team should make Cho'gall stronger as two heroes combined; yet he fails to deliver that. I love playing as Gall and I have a good friend who is an awesome Cho, but he doesn't have much presence in the meta and is so easily countered. That saddens me.

One thing I find excessively important on Cho'gall is applying constant map pressure. As I see it, it generally takes two heroes to counter his pushing; play aggressively versus one hero, and get your poking game on point.

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Posted (edited)

Hey Oxygen, just took a look at your new guide. I have a few points of contention:

 

1. I'm shocked, shocked I say, that you have not seen the potential of the twilight nova + lead orb combo. Yes, it comes up late in the game, yes it requires you to give up multiple shadowflame talents, but it practically gives you apocalypse on a 6 second cooldown. Ok, that's a tiny exaggeration due to the shorter stun length, but the disruptiveness of a massive, nigh impossible to avoid aoe stun on a 6 second cd should not be underestimated.

2. I think you're underselling Ogre Rampage just a tiny bit. From my experience, it is not uncommon for cho'gall to come under focus fire at some point during a teamfight. However, just because you are under fire does not mean Gall should stop casting spells (obviously). Ogre Rampage allows Gall to continue dealing good damage even while Cho'Gall is being focused (also has nice synergy with the lead nova combo above).

3. Psychotic Break does have an application, largely the same one as it did before. If you're absolutely convinced that the game is going to end in approximately 60 seconds, then this talent is probably better then upgraded neather (debatable better then shadowbolt fury, but I don't think so). Being able to get in that extra 10 seconds of damage during the final teamfight can easily mean the difference between winning and losing.

4. Will of Cho/Will of Gall have one and only one application: If you're level 20, have not chosen shadowbolt volley, and have a reasonable suspicion that the next teamfight will not decide the game(generally this means neither side has lost a keep by level 20). In this scenario, you can increase your damage by a good 8 to 10 percent by the time you hit your next teamfight, which is probably better then the teleport talent (I only take neather with upheavel, so I haven't found the blink to be useful). Is this niche enough to elevate it to "situational"? Probably not, especially at higher levels, but it has a place.

 

Overall great guide. I've been using Double Back lately, but I should probably give runic persistence a try vs less melee heavy teams.

Edited by WebBowser

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21 hours ago, WebBowser said:

1. I'm shocked, shocked I say, that you have not seen the potential of the twilight nova + lead orb combo. Yes, it comes up late in the game, yes it requires you to give up multiple shadowflame talents, but it practically gives you apocalypse on a 6 second cooldown. Ok, that's a tiny exaggeration due to the shorter stun length, but the disruptiveness of a massive, nigh impossible to avoid aoe stun on a 6 second cd should not be underestimated.

Given the low duration of the stun, it feels like a channel cancelling ability more than anything. Besides, ShadowsnareShadowsnare provides stronger CC, which is why picking it over Leaden OrbLeaden Orb is recommended.

21 hours ago, WebBowser said:

2. I think you're underselling Ogre Rampage just a tiny bit. From my experience, it is not uncommon for cho'gall to come under focus fire at some point during a teamfight. However, just because you are under fire does not mean Gall should stop casting spells (obviously). Ogre Rampage allows Gall to continue dealing good damage even while Cho'Gall is being focused (also has nice synergy with the lead nova combo above).

It forces you to spam the trait, which can be difficult at times, and puts even more emphasis on the communication between Cho and Gall players. Even though Double TroubleDouble Trouble suffers from the same issue, it is much less significant and does not affect the damage output or defences by forcing you to spam the trait.

21 hours ago, WebBowser said:

3. Psychotic Break does have an application, largely the same one as it did before. If you're absolutely convinced that the game is going to end in approximately 60 seconds, then this talent is probably better then upgraded neather (debatable better then shadowbolt fury, but I don't think so). Being able to get in that extra 10 seconds of damage during the final teamfight can easily mean the difference between winning and losing.

Aside from sieging power, it has little use. And how often does the game end with only a few % left on the Core of one team? Very rarely, from my experience. This means you should go for the massive damage output of ShadowfuryShadowfury, especially if it helps with pushing core as well, as you can both defend your teammates from the opponent team saving core, while also being able to deal massive damage to the core at the same time.

22 hours ago, WebBowser said:

4. Will of Cho/Will of Gall have one and only one application: If you're level 20, have not chosen shadowbolt volley, and have a reasonable suspicion that the next teamfight will not decide the game(generally this means neither side has lost a keep by level 20). In this scenario, you can increase your damage by a good 8 to 10 percent by the time you hit your next teamfight, which is probably better then the teleport talent (I only take neather with upheavel, so I haven't found the blink to be useful). Is this niche enough to elevate it to "situational"? Probably not, especially at higher levels, but it has a place.

Not only it is a somewhat rare sight, but as every kill counts, as having 5v4 is often enough to push at least one keep. More importantly, once a teamfight happens, the ShadowfuryShadowfury allows you to win the teamfight somewhat easily, provided it doesn't go to waste, which can be sufficient to push all the way to core, given how long the respawn times are during the late-game.

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1 hour ago, positiv2 said:

Given the low duration of the stun, it feels like a channel cancelling ability more than anything. Besides, ShadowsnareShadowsnare provides stronger CC, which is why picking it over Leaden OrbLeaden Orb is recommended.

Since when was a 10-30% slow that hits 1 or 2 targets make for better CC then stunning the entire team for .5 seconds? When combined with Twilight Nova, it becomes very easy to consistently hit the entire team with the orb, and on a 6 second cooldown you can do this multiple times per fight. .5 seconds isn't oppressive, but in the world of stuns it's by no means short, and the fact you can hit the entire team with it easily and consistently is not something you can ignore.

It forces you to spam the trait, which can be difficult at times, and puts even more emphasis on the communication between Cho and Gall players. Even though Double TroubleDouble Trouble suffers from the same issue, it is much less significant and does not affect the damage output or defences by forcing you to spam the trait.

I think you're overestimating how long fights last. Let's make a few assumptions, shall we?

1. If Cho'Gall is not under heavy fire, then Ogre Rage will be active

2. Cho'Gall is generally not under heavy fire until after the enemy team has hard committed to the fight

3. Once the enemy team has hard committed to the fight, the fight will generally be over in about 10-15 seconds.

Under these assumptions, it's reasonable to suggest that during a teamfight, Cho'Gall will switch traits exactly once(due to the 5 second cooldown), which is when he comes under heavy fire. This is something Cho should be doing anyway, regardless of what talent Gall happened to have picked. It is unlikely that Ogre Rampage will require Cho'Gall to swap any more often then they do, because they really can't. The ability for Gall to continue outputting strong damage while under heavy fire, even for just a few seconds, is valuable (because teamfights generally only last a few seconds anyway).

Aside from sieging power, it has little use. And how often does the game end with only a few % left on the Core of one team? Very rarely, from my experience. This means you should go for the massive damage output of ShadowfuryShadowfury, especially if it helps with pushing core as well, as you can both defend your teammates from the opponent team saving core, while also being able to deal massive damage to the core at the same time.

Shadowfury is pretty much always optimal (unless you're literally on top the enemy core and ult is on CD). However, this talent is only available to those who pick shadowbolt volley at 10, meaning people with Twisting Nether will have to pick something else (none of the above is obviously not viable). The twisting nether upgrade is significantly weaker then the shadowbolt volley upgrade, which gives us reason to debate the value of the other two talents. Furthermore, sometimes you hit level 20 and you are quite literally on top of the opponent's core, which makes this talent much more attractive. Remember, you do not have to pick your level 20 talent before the game starts.

Not only it is a somewhat rare sight, but as every kill counts, as having 5v4 is often enough to push at least one keep. More importantly, once a teamfight happens, the ShadowfuryShadowfury allows you to win the teamfight somewhat easily, provided it doesn't go to waste, which can be sufficient to push all the way to core, given how long the respawn times are during the late-game.

If the game lasts for more then 1 teamfight, I'd argue that this is worth it over upgraded nether (I simply do not value having a teleport on your ultimate when upheaval should be doing the positioning for you and nether should never be taken with hammer). I agree that Shadowfury is better then this talent literally every time though.

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7 hours ago, WebBowser said:

Since when was a 10-30% slow that hits 1 or 2 targets make for better CC then stunning the entire team for .5 seconds? When combined with Twilight Nova, it becomes very easy to consistently hit the entire team with the orb, and on a 6 second cooldown you can do this multiple times per fight. .5 seconds isn't oppressive, but in the world of stuns it's by no means short, and the fact you can hit the entire team with it easily and consistently is not something you can ignore.

It's harder to evade, so you are guaranteed to get the slow, while withe the 0.5s stun, it can be somewhat easily avoided by more skillful players. So, a guaranteed 10-30% slow is indeed better than a coinflip 0.5s stun (so, not really "easily and consistently"), even with Twilight NovaTwilight Nova, which is something you should not take over the massive damage output of Searing ShadowsSearing Shadows.

And to quote the guide's description of Dread OrbDread Orb - "Any more than one such hit falls within the realm of luck or otherwise bad play from an opponent's part." So, Leaden OrbLeaden Orb might be a somewhat good pick in lower leagues and in Quick Match, as the skill is often quite low, it's not a consistent CC in higher leagues or against teams in QM that are playing to win.

Additionally, with Double TroubleDouble Trouble the slow gets applied much more quickly.

7 hours ago, WebBowser said:

I think you're overestimating how long fights last. Let's make a few assumptions, shall we?

1. If Cho'Gall is not under heavy fire, then Ogre Rage will be active

2. Cho'Gall is generally not under heavy fire until after the enemy team has hard committed to the fight

3. Once the enemy team has hard committed to the fight, the fight will generally be over in about 10-15 seconds.

Under these assumptions, it's reasonable to suggest that during a teamfight, Cho'Gall will switch traits exactly once(due to the 5 second cooldown), which is when he comes under heavy fire. This is something Cho should be doing anyway, regardless of what talent Gall happened to have picked. It is unlikely that Ogre Rampage will require Cho'Gall to swap any more often then they do, because they really can't. The ability for Gall to continue outputting strong damage while under heavy fire, even for just a few seconds, is valuable (because teamfights generally only last a few seconds anyway).

When Cho'Gall is under heavy fire, he usually is attacked in melee range as well. This means Cho usually uses Consuming BlazeConsuming Blaze, which means that you will be benefitting from Double TroubleDouble Trouble as well. 

However, when Cho'Gall is not under heavy fire, it's good to have Ogre RageOgre Rage up, which obviously makes Ogre RampageOgre Rampage a dead pick. However, if you are able to get the cooldown reduction bonus of Double TroubleDouble Trouble, especially if you have completed it, the damage output is about the same, but can be obtained without having to switch to Ogre HideOgre Hide, which helps if you want to use Shadow Bolt VolleyShadow Bolt Volley during the fight. 

Let's also not forget that Cho'Gall might not be under attack until the end of the fight, with the other heroes on your team dead, in which case Ogre RampageOgre Rampage isn't of much use anyway.

7 hours ago, WebBowser said:

Shadowfury is pretty much always optimal (unless you're literally on top the enemy core and ult is on CD). However, this talent is only available to those who pick shadowbolt volley at 10, meaning people with Twisting Nether will have to pick something else (none of the above is obviously not viable). The twisting nether upgrade is significantly weaker then the shadowbolt volley upgrade, which gives us reason to debate the value of the other two talents. Furthermore, sometimes you hit level 20 and you are quite literally on top of the opponent's core, which makes this talent much more attractive. Remember, you do not have to pick your level 20 talent before the game starts.

Well, the case you describe, it does indeed seem better to take Psychotic BreakPsychotic Break, but let's be honest - it's not exactly a common situation. Shifting NetherShifting Nether allows you to win teamfight somewhat more easily, as you don't give the opposing heroes (that get countered by CC) enough time to run, allowing your team's diver to take the kills, significantly reducing the damage dealt by the opposing team, because the heroes that get countered by CC are usually assassins. This gives you more time or more heroes to push the core, resulting in a similar situation, though with a few differences - the power during fights is higher, but you are less likely to get to the core and push it like you would be with Psychotic BreakPsychotic Break, but the question is - how much less likely are you?

7 hours ago, WebBowser said:

If the game lasts for more then 1 teamfight, I'd argue that this is worth it over upgraded nether (I simply do not value having a teleport on your ultimate when upheaval should be doing the positioning for you and nether should never be taken with hammer). I agree that Shadowfury is better then this talent literally every time though.

If the Cho'Gall chose Twisting NetherTwisting Nether, but the power has shifted from assassins to tanks (early-game-focused assassins, late-game-focused tanks), and the game is not nearing end, then The Will of GallThe Will of Gall seems like a solid choice, but again, it is not exactly a common sight to have pushed no keeps by level 20, or at least not in my games.

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16 hours ago, positiv2 said:

It's harder to evade, so you are guaranteed to get the slow, while withe the 0.5s stun, it can be somewhat easily avoided by more skillful players. So, a guaranteed 10-30% slow is indeed better than a coinflip 0.5s stun (so, not really "easily and consistently"), even with Twilight NovaTwilight Nova, which is something you should not take over the massive damage output of Searing ShadowsSearing Shadows.

And to quote the guide's description of Dread OrbDread Orb - "Any more than one such hit falls within the realm of luck or otherwise bad play from an opponent's part." So, Leaden OrbLeaden Orb might be a somewhat good pick in lower leagues and in Quick Match, as the skill is often quite low, it's not a consistent CC in higher leagues or against teams in QM that are playing to win.

Additionally, with Double TroubleDouble Trouble the slow gets applied much more quickly.

I agree that you are giving up a lot of single target damage by going Twilight Nova over Searing Shadows, however in terms of AoE damage the two builds are actually pretty comparable. Granted, generally it's better to deal 75% of a single hero's health then it is to set the entire team to 50%, but throw in a large, difficult to avoid stun just 3 levels later and suddenly the AoE build starts having some serious application. From experience I can say that a twilight nova powered dread orb is very difficult to avoid during a teamfight, just because of the wide spread it covers, and is pretty much guaranteed to hit multiple heroes, if not the entire team. I would not recommend Leaden Orb if you do not have Twilight Nova though.

When Cho'Gall is under heavy fire, he usually is attacked in melee range as well. This means Cho usually uses Consuming BlazeConsuming Blaze, which means that you will be benefitting from Double TroubleDouble Trouble as well. 

However, when Cho'Gall is not under heavy fire, it's good to have Ogre RageOgre Rage up, which obviously makes Ogre RampageOgre Rampage a dead pick. However, if you are able to get the cooldown reduction bonus of Double TroubleDouble Trouble, especially if you have completed it, the damage output is about the same, but can be obtained without having to switch to Ogre HideOgre Hide, which helps if you want to use Shadow Bolt VolleyShadow Bolt Volley during the fight.

So fun fact, a skill's damage is actually calculated right when the ability is cast, and will not change even if Gall were to suffer from an ability power reduction while the skill is still out. What this means in practice is that as long as you cast your orbs and shadowbolt volley/twisting nether before cho activates ogre hide, you still get the full benefit of ogre rage. Since Shadowbolt Volley is optimally cast before everyone is on top of you (the closer people are, the easier it is for them to dodge the laser), this is fairly easy to accomplish. If a teamfight lasts long enough for you to swap from Ogre Rage to Ogre Hide and back to Ogre Rage, then you probably are winning because this would mean that you came under heavy fire but did not die. I still maintain that picking Ogre Rampage should not change how Cho'Gall utilizes their talent.

Let's also not forget that Cho'Gall might not be under attack until the end of the fight, with the other heroes on your team dead, in which case Ogre RampageOgre Rampage isn't of much use anyway.

This, however, is a fair knock against Ogre Rampage. If you find yourself not switching to Ogre Hide during teamfights for whatever reason, then this talent is bad.

Well, the case you describe, it does indeed seem better to take Psychotic BreakPsychotic Break, but let's be honest - it's not exactly a common situation. Shifting NetherShifting Nether allows you to win teamfight somewhat more easily, as you don't give the opposing heroes (that get countered by CC) enough time to run, allowing your team's diver to take the kills, significantly reducing the damage dealt by the opposing team, because the heroes that get countered by CC are usually assassins. This gives you more time or more heroes to push the core, resulting in a similar situation, though with a few differences - the power during fights is higher, but you are less likely to get to the core and push it like you would be with Psychotic BreakPsychotic Break, but the question is - how much less likely are you?

If the Cho'Gall chose Twisting NetherTwisting Nether, but the power has shifted from assassins to tanks (early-game-focused assassins, late-game-focused tanks), and the game is not nearing end, then The Will of GallThe Will of Gall seems like a solid choice, but again, it is not exactly a common sight to have pushed no keeps by level 20, or at least not in my games.

What exactly is Shifting Nether giving you that Upheaval, a talent Cho probably took 10 levels earlier, is not? All Shifting Nether does is position yourself into the middle of the enemy team for optimal ult damage, but Upheaval already does that, and does a better job at it too (it's safer, goes out further, and puts your teammates in position as to unload as well). I earnestly consider Shifting Nether to be a worthless talent, which is why I'm bringing up these two exceedingly situational talents at all, and before you mention that Cho might pick hammer... no, just no. If Cho picks hammer, you should not be running nether because it then becomes nearly impossible to get a good nether until 20, and you simply cannot go 10 levels with a useless ult and expect to win.

 

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15 hours ago, WebBowser said:

I agree that you are giving up a lot of single target damage by going Twilight Nova over Searing Shadows, however in terms of AoE damage the two builds are actually pretty comparable. Granted, generally it's better to deal 75% of a single hero's health then it is to set the entire team to 50%, but throw in a large, difficult to avoid stun just 3 levels later and suddenly the AoE build starts having some serious application. From experience I can say that a twilight nova powered dread orb is very difficult to avoid during a teamfight, just because of the wide spread it covers, and is pretty much guaranteed to hit multiple heroes, if not the entire team. I would not recommend Leaden Orb if you do not have Twilight Nova though.

I happened to play a game against Cho'Gall with the 2 core abilities you are advocating - Leaden OrbLeaden Orb and Twilight NovaTwilight Nova, and I managed to get one time by the stun (was playing Gul'dan), and my friend playing Dehaka got stunned by the Leaden OrbLeaden Orb about 3 times total, which is, out of 22-level-long game, quite insignificant, and is the biggest reason not to pick it - it is hard to land, even in teamfights, as I had the opportunity to experience. It's good as a waveclear, but that's not why Cho'Gall should be picked. 

Yeah, the synergy between the two talents is good, so much that I do feel they are tied together - one should never pick one of the two talents without picking the other, indeed.

Then again, I had a good team that was able to evade most of the skillshots, not only Gall's Dread OrbDread Orb, so maybe the build works in lower skill brackets where the players don't really have the idea what they're supposed (not) to do. Does it?

15 hours ago, WebBowser said:

So fun fact, a skill's damage is actually calculated right when the ability is cast, and will not change even if Gall were to suffer from an ability power reduction while the skill is still out. What this means in practice is that as long as you cast your orbs and shadowbolt volley/twisting nether before cho activates ogre hide, you still get the full benefit of ogre rage. Since Shadowbolt Volley is optimally cast before everyone is on top of you (the closer people are, the easier it is for them to dodge the laser), this is fairly easy to accomplish. If a teamfight lasts long enough for you to swap from Ogre Rage to Ogre Hide and back to Ogre Rage, then you probably are winning because this would mean that you came under heavy fire but did not die. I still maintain that picking Ogre Rampage should not change how Cho'Gall utilizes their talent.

That's something I actually did not know. Thanks!

From experience, past lvl-20 with ShadowfuryShadowfury, Shadow Bolt VolleyShadow Bolt Volley is incredibly strong if you lose a teamfight and the opponent are nearing you while you move slowly away, forcing your opponents to go into some kind of cone or a line as they try to chase you, giving you the highest and easiest damage. In this case, switching the trait doesn't do much either, as the opponents will often die or run away, not letting you to take advantage of the reduced cooldowns.

If Cho is unable to switch traits when stunned or silenced, it adds another danger and lowers the quality of the talent.

15 hours ago, WebBowser said:

What exactly is Shifting Nether giving you that Upheaval, a talent Cho probably took 10 levels earlier, is not? All Shifting Nether does is position yourself into the middle of the enemy team for optimal ult damage, but Upheaval already does that, and does a better job at it too (it's safer, goes out further, and puts your teammates in position as to unload as well). I earnestly consider Shifting Nether to be a worthless talent, which is why I'm bringing up these two exceedingly situational talents at all, and before you mention that Cho might pick hammer... no, just no. If Cho picks hammer, you should not be running nether because it then becomes nearly impossible to get a good nether until 20, and you simply cannot go 10 levels with a useless ult and expect to win.

It's not about in what way the talents are different, but how they work together - you port over to the enemy team and pull all of them to you with the UpheavalUpheaval, resulting in massive CC with a very good accuracy, allowing your team to pick of any of CC-sensitive heroes, and given the Twisting NetherTwisting Nether is not a trash talent only if the opposing team has a considerable amount of CC-sensitive heroes, you will often win the teamfight with this combo.

Twisting NetherTwisting Nether can also be picked as a follow-up to other AoE stuns or CCs, like Mosh PitMosh Pit, allowing you to stop the enemies for a very long time, while also allowing Cho to pick Hammer of TwilightHammer of Twilight, as you will be able to hit the Twisting NetherTwisting Nether without UpheavalUpheaval. Obviously there won't be any synergy between Cho's and Gall's ultimate abilities, and they  will have to be used separately, but with the two talents being strong in different situations, I do not think it is that bad.
It's fairly situational, as there aren't that many abilities that propagate the use of Twisting NetherTwisting Nether more than the use of Shadow Bolt VolleyShadow Bolt Volley

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, positiv2 said:

I happened to play a game against Cho'Gall with the 2 core abilities you are advocating - Leaden OrbLeaden Orb and Twilight NovaTwilight Nova, and I managed to get one time by the stun (was playing Gul'dan), and my friend playing Dehaka got stunned by the Leaden OrbLeaden Orb about 3 times total, which is, out of 22-level-long game, quite insignificant, and is the biggest reason not to pick it - it is hard to land, even in teamfights, as I had the opportunity to experience. It's good as a waveclear, but that's not why Cho'Gall should be picked. 

Yeah, the synergy between the two talents is good, so much that I do feel they are tied together - one should never pick one of the two talents without picking the other, indeed.

Then again, I had a good team that was able to evade most of the skillshots, not only Gall's Dread OrbDread Orb, so maybe the build works in lower skill brackets where the players don't really have the idea what they're supposed (not) to do. Does it?

 

hmmm, must be a skill bracket thing. In my bracket, you can fire off an apocalypse after the enemy hard engages, and most of them  will either fail to or be unable to dodge the runes before they go off. I do not know how frequently that happens in practice at your level of play, but perhaps something similar is happening here (I'll admit I'm not the world's most skilled player).  If it's that difficult to consistently land even with the two talents together, then it's probably only good as a wombo follow up similar to Diablo's apoc.

8 hours ago, positiv2 said:

That's something I actually did not know. Thanks!

That was literally the first thing I tested when the rework dropped because I misread the passive cd as .5 seconds and wanted to see how much I could abuse it (turns out the 5 second cd is very relevant)

8 hours ago, positiv2 said:

From experience, past lvl-20 with ShadowfuryShadowfury, Shadow Bolt VolleyShadow Bolt Volley is incredibly strong if you lose a teamfight and the opponent are nearing you while you move slowly away, forcing your opponents to go into some kind of cone or a line as they try to chase you, giving you the highest and easiest damage. In this case, switching the trait doesn't do much either, as the opponents will often die or run away, not letting you to take advantage of the reduced cooldowns.

That's a fair, if not rather specific situation. Personally, I think that situation comes up due to matchup inexperience then anything, as you should not be chasing Cho'Gall while shadowbolt volley is up. Honestly, if the shadowbolt build is in fact the optimal build (which at this point it may very well be), then this talent has little use not because it's a bad talent but because it conflicts with double trouble.

8 hours ago, positiv2 said:

If Cho is unable to switch traits when stunned or silenced, it adds another danger and lowers the quality of the talent.

I earnestly have no idea whether or not this is the case. This is actually kinda friggen important as there are several initiation abilities that do one of those two things (sylv ult, muradin hammer, Malf ult, Tyrande stun, Diablo's grab, ETC slide/ult, etc), and as a cho player I definitely want to know if I need to ogre hide before I get stunned or if I can do it whenever.

8 hours ago, positiv2 said:

It's not about in what way the talents are different, but how they work together - you port over to the enemy team and pull all of them to you with the UpheavalUpheaval, resulting in massive CC with a very good accuracy, allowing your team to pick of any of CC-sensitive heroes, and given the Twisting NetherTwisting Nether is not a trash talent only if the opposing team has a considerable amount of CC-sensitive heroes, you will often win the teamfight with this combo.

Twisting NetherTwisting Nether can also be picked as a follow-up to other AoE stuns or CCs, like Mosh PitMosh Pit, allowing you to stop the enemies for a very long time, while also allowing Cho to pick Hammer of TwilightHammer of Twilight, as you will be able to hit the Twisting NetherTwisting Nether without UpheavalUpheaval. Obviously there won't be any synergy between Cho's and Gall's ultimate abilities, and they  will have to be used separately, but with the two talents being strong in different situations, I do not think it is that bad.
It's fairly situational, as there aren't that many abilities that propagate the use of Twisting NetherTwisting Nether more than the use of Shadow Bolt VolleyShadow Bolt Volley

Both excellent points that I have not previously considered. Out of curiosity, what is your definition of a "CC sensitive hero?" I have found the upheaval/nether combo to be really strong if the enemy has multiple backline squishies that want to stay as far away from the fight as possible and want absolutely nothing to do with being in the middle of your team (hammer, tyrande, morales, rayner, etcetera). Are those whom you are referring to?

 

Thanks for discussing this with me, I learned a lot from talking to you.

Edited by WebBowser
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19 hours ago, WebBowser said:

hmmm, must be a skill bracket thing. In my bracket, you can fire off an apocalypse after the enemy hard engages, and most of them  will either fail to or be unable to dodge the runes before they go off. I do not know how frequently that happens in practice at your level of play, but perhaps something similar is happening here (I'll admit I'm not the world's most skilled player).  If it's that difficult to consistently land even with the two talents together, then it's probably only good as a wombo follow up similar to Diablo's apoc.

I decided to test the build with two friends of mine on Asian server, where we have very low levels, and it really works fine against unskilled opponents - they kept standing in the hitzones and kept getting stunned, and since we had Greymane with ExecutionerExecutioner, the damage output was really good. So, even though it was only one game, I think I can say that it does work well in lower skill levels, as the opponents had no clue what kept stunning them, apparently. However, since these builds need to work at higher levels/leagues, it was decided to mark both of the abilities "Not Recommended".

20 hours ago, WebBowser said:

you should not be chasing Cho'Gall while shadowbolt volley is up.

That's why they run away most of the time. However, if the fight was taking place in a corridor, the opponents sometimes do not have the opportunity to run away, in which case they don't even need to start chasing you.

21 hours ago, WebBowser said:

Out of curiosity, what is your definition of a "CC sensitive hero?"

Heroes that are pretty much dead when hit by strong CC (usually roots, stuns and slows) - hypersensitive to Crowd Control. Examples of these heroes are Falstad or Sgt. Hammer. 

21 hours ago, WebBowser said:

Are those whom you are referring to?

Yes, exactly that kind of heroes.

21 hours ago, WebBowser said:

Thanks for discussing this with me, I learned a lot from talking to you.

Thanks to you too! It's always exciting to see a knowledgeable player like yourself discussing aspects of the build in a constructive manner.
I learned a lot from you too, thanks!

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Just a typo fyi: in the abilities section, it says that Ogre Rage turns off Cho's Ogre Rage [sic]. I'm pretty sure you meant Ogre Hide.

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45 minutes ago, Guest payprplayn said:

Just a typo fyi: in the abilities section, it says that Ogre Rage turns off Cho's Ogre Rage [sic]. I'm pretty sure you meant Ogre Hide.

Oh, thanks for pointing this out! Oxy will be fixing issues in bulk soon, so I will make sure he adds this onto his list.

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