Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Damien

Heroes of the Storm Gall

11 posts in this topic

This thread is for comments about our Gall build guide for Heroes of the Storm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I heavily disagree with Twisting Neather being outright dismissed as an option. Shadowfury is an amazing heroic for taking down structures and does a great deal of single target damage when it hits, but it can be unreliable and has some pretty significant anti-synergy with upheaval (which throws all targets behind Cho). Twisting Neather does much less single target damage, but when combined with upheaval it can literally wipe entire teams. The fact that it has a built in wombo combo with upheaval is more then enough to warrant consideration. It's also a respectable AOE on it's own, but given it has a longer CD then upheaval, the two should pretty much always be used in conjunction. I will grant that twisting neather is pointless if Cho goes with the stun hammer.

 

Shove is another talent that deserves a second look. You know Vault, right? That Valla ability that instantly repositions you? Well Shove is basically that. It instantly repositions Cho'Gall wherever you want. This can be used to avoid skill shots, run away, as a secondary gap closer, and is all around extremely versatile in it's application. Granted, positioning is less important to Cho'Gall then it is to Valla, but the usefulness of giving them an instant dash should not be underestimated. It's especially useful at avoiding aoes like Johanna's circle and Jaina's Blizzard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I heavily disagree with Twisting Neather being outright dismissed as an option. Shadowfury is an amazing heroic for taking down structures and does a great deal of single target damage when it hits, but it can be unreliable and has some pretty significant anti-synergy with upheaval (which throws all targets behind Cho). Twisting Neather does much less single target damage, but when combined with upheaval it can literally wipe entire teams. The fact that it has a built in wombo combo with upheaval is more then enough to warrant consideration. It's also a respectable AOE on it's own, but given it has a longer CD then upheaval, the two should pretty much always be used in conjunction. I will grant that twisting neather is pointless if Cho goes with the stun hammer.

 

Shove is another talent that deserves a second look. You know Vault, right? That Valla ability that instantly repositions you? Well Shove is basically that. It instantly repositions Cho'Gall wherever you want. This can be used to avoid skill shots, run away, as a secondary gap closer, and is all around extremely versatile in it's application. Granted, positioning is less important to Cho'Gall then it is to Valla, but the usefulness of giving them an instant dash should not be underestimated. It's especially useful at avoiding aoes like Johanna's circle and Jaina's Blizzard.

 

Good insight. After playing more, I've come to the same conclusion as you on both points. I'll be updating the guide shortly.

Here's a short clip featuring myself and Shove (and why I actually like the talent now): 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice play on that Kerrigan there. As I mentioned in the Cho guide, Shove -> Z basically takes the place of Q as your dedicated escape, allowing for more offensive use of Q (I try to keep positioning related stuff in the Cho guide because it makes more sense). A couple other notes on Gall talents though.

 

For level 7, consider taking Dark Descent. 20% extra damage on Runic Blast is no joke and when combined with Runic Gauntlet it gives Cho'Gall patently ludicrous amounts of burst. Dark Descent is much stronger then your average snowball talent because getting 4 takedowns is trivial and will likely happen in your average teamfight. Cho'Gall is the perfect user of such an ability too, as your huge healthpool combined with your deceptive mobility options means that you simply should not be dieing, ever, so losing stacks is unlikely and rare.

 

As for level 4 talents, you have sold me on the joys of double back, however I will note that taking it does mean that your blobs won't go as far, which is a disadvantage if you want to play the long range poke game. Since Runic Persistence is an unadulterated piece of garbage, that leaves bomb's away, which gives your bombs a rather significant range upgrade. I'd say in most situations, double back is still probably better, but there is merit to playing the long range poke game (like trying to not die to leoric for instance).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice play on that Kerrigan there. As I mentioned in the Cho guide, Shove -> Z basically takes the place of Q as your dedicated escape, allowing for more offensive use of Q (I try to keep positioning related stuff in the Cho guide because it makes more sense). A couple other notes on Gall talents though.

 

For level 7, consider taking Dark Descent. 20% extra damage on Runic Blast is no joke and when combined with Runic Gauntlet it gives Cho'Gall patently ludicrous amounts of burst. Dark Descent is much stronger then your average snowball talent because getting 4 takedowns is trivial and will likely happen in your average teamfight. Cho'Gall is the perfect user of such an ability too, as your huge healthpool combined with your deceptive mobility options means that you simply should not be dieing, ever, so losing stacks is unlikely and rare.

 

As for level 4 talents, you have sold me on the joys of double back, however I will note that taking it does mean that your blobs won't go as far, which is a disadvantage if you want to play the long range poke game. Since Runic Persistence is an unadulterated piece of garbage, that leaves bomb's away, which gives your bombs a rather significant range upgrade. I'd say in most situations, double back is still probably better, but there is merit to playing the long range poke game (like trying to not die to leoric for instance).

 

Yup, we've also started running Dark Descent, partly because it's easier to stay alive, and partly because we're just better at the hero. The Cho'gall buffs really helped his build diversity. I'll consign all of this in time.

 

I'm glad you started to appreciate Double Back. That thing is completely underrated, and I can understand why it seems like a poor choice at a first glance.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So new patch brought good news and bad news. Good news is that bans are now a thing making it harder to counterpick Cho'Gall in ranked. Bad news is that reworked Tychus has level 1 Giant Slayer and is actually pretty hard to blow up, making him one of the few legitimate Cho'Gall counters. The worst news is that Cho'Gall is now bugged so that you cannot detonate rune bomb while using shadowbolt fury, pretty much eliminating his teamfight potential should you choose that ult (I'm personally partial to upheaval/neather, but the removal of a previously viable ulti is a nerf that cannot be understated)

 

imo these are the things that hard counter Cho Gall

 

1. Leoric: tanky, %health damage, and entomb all work to make this guy a nightmare to fight against as Cho'Gall, avoid at all costs.

 

2. Anub'arak: Cacoon takes Cho'Gall out of the fight for an unacceptable amount of time and is nearly impossible to avoid. Zagara is similarly troublesome, but unlike anub, she has no real mobility and is squishy, making her a fairly easy target for upheaval/neather. Anub has enough mobility and tankyness to avoid being bursted in this manner.

 

3. Tychus?: I need to play more games against reworked Tychus to be certain, but level 1 giant slayer + tankyness + self peel really harms Cho's ability to bully him in the early game.

 

 

I do not consider Rayner to be a counter to Cho'Gall simply because prior to level 10 you can literally walk all over him and he can't do much about it while later in the game he has no real way to avoid upheaval, bringing him into your team to get blown up before giant slayer becomes a factor. I actually consider him a rather poor choice to fight Cho'Gall.

 

I do not consider Butcher or Illidan to be counters because literally everyone loses 1v1 to them post 10 and Cho'Gall has plenty of tools to avoid being in a 1v1 situation with either of these foes. Cho'Gall has enough health to survive any burst these foes can bring against him and enough mobility to escape to wherever he needs to. Not to mention that auto attacks spent on Cho'Gall are auto attacks not being spent on your squishies, so getting focuesed by either of these heroes in teamfights is usually a recipe for victory (unless they are super ahead, in which case you just need to pray for a solid ambush to take them by surprise)

 

Hopefully Blizz will fix the ulti bug soon so that I can get back to stomping ranked with Cho'Gall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So new patch brought good news and bad news. Good news is that bans are now a thing making it harder to counterpick Cho'Gall in ranked. Bad news is that reworked Tychus has level 1 Giant Slayer and is actually pretty hard to blow up, making him one of the few legitimate Cho'Gall counters. The worst news is that Cho'Gall is now bugged so that you cannot detonate rune bomb while using shadowbolt fury, pretty much eliminating his teamfight potential should you choose that ult (I'm personally partial to upheaval/neather, but the removal of a previously viable ulti is a nerf that cannot be understated)

 

imo these are the things that hard counter Cho Gall

 

1. Leoric: tanky, %health damage, and entomb all work to make this guy a nightmare to fight against as Cho'Gall, avoid at all costs.

 

2. Anub'arak: Cacoon takes Cho'Gall out of the fight for an unacceptable amount of time and is nearly impossible to avoid. Zagara is similarly troublesome, but unlike anub, she has no real mobility and is squishy, making her a fairly easy target for upheaval/neather. Anub has enough mobility and tankyness to avoid being bursted in this manner.

 

3. Tychus?: I need to play more games against reworked Tychus to be certain, but level 1 giant slayer + tankyness + self peel really harms Cho's ability to bully him in the early game.

 

 

I do not consider Rayner to be a counter to Cho'Gall simply because prior to level 10 you can literally walk all over him and he can't do much about it while later in the game he has no real way to avoid upheaval, bringing him into your team to get blown up before giant slayer becomes a factor. I actually consider him a rather poor choice to fight Cho'Gall.

 

I do not consider Butcher or Illidan to be counters because literally everyone loses 1v1 to them post 10 and Cho'Gall has plenty of tools to avoid being in a 1v1 situation with either of these foes. Cho'Gall has enough health to survive any burst these foes can bring against him and enough mobility to escape to wherever he needs to. Not to mention that auto attacks spent on Cho'Gall are auto attacks not being spent on your squishies, so getting focuesed by either of these heroes in teamfights is usually a recipe for victory (unless they are super ahead, in which case you just need to pray for a solid ambush to take them by surprise)

 

Hopefully Blizz will fix the ulti bug soon so that I can get back to stomping ranked with Cho'Gall.

 

I've come to similar conclusions and will be updating the guide within the next few weeks. Thanks for the post - I more or less agree with most of it. I don't believe Tychus to be good against him, despite the true damage; that requires sustaining attacks, and with his short range, that's asking to get poked to the grave.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I want to ask for your advice on something, what kinds of teamcomps does Cho'Gall like to play with and against? I've been playing more Cho'Gall then before thanks to bans + bug fix and I've notice that games generally come down to team comp/team cohesion more then anything else.

 

From my experiences, he can do well in 2 comps. First is the dive comp, just because he can Q in, hammer people around to disrupt their formation, and mop up the most out of position enemy. The other is the wombo comp, where he upheaval-neathers a large portion of the enemy team into himself and the rest of the team follows up for an easy wipe. I've found that he pairs extremely well with rehgar due to his burst heals, but he does not do so well with dedicated tanks like Johanna (just not enough damage). He's not great at being solo melee, so I feel like he needs a bruiser to help peel for the squishies.

 

The main guys I've had particular success with are Rehgar, Xul(Poison Nova has nice synergy with upheaval-neather and can make it difficult for the enemy team to recover. Also Bruiser with hard CC), Jaina, Medic, and KT.

 

As for bad games, generally he doesn't do so well against teams with multiple bruisers. Cho'Gall relies heavily on their abilities to deal damage and damage output decreases significantly when CDs are down. I wonder if there are playstyle adjustments to be made for different teamcomps. As mentioned before he doesn't like being the only tank very much, but if you have a hard tank like Johanna or Chen I've found the team just doesn't do enough damage.

 

What have your experiences with him been like as far as fitting him into teams go?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope Blizzard give him a rework someday. All builds are the same bread and butter, he lacks diversity and the right tools to be a real threat. While he has great stage presence, having one less Hero on the team should make Cho'gall stronger as two heroes combined; yet he fails to deliver that. I love playing as Gall and I have a good friend who is an awesome Cho, but he doesn't have much presence in the meta and is so easily countered. That saddens me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/14/2016 at 10:08 PM, WebBowser said:

So I want to ask for your advice on something, what kinds of teamcomps does Cho'Gall like to play with and against? I've been playing more Cho'Gall then before thanks to bans + bug fix and I've notice that games generally come down to team comp/team cohesion more then anything else.

 

From my experiences, he can do well in 2 comps. First is the dive comp, just because he can Q in, hammer people around to disrupt their formation, and mop up the most out of position enemy. The other is the wombo comp, where he upheaval-neathers a large portion of the enemy team into himself and the rest of the team follows up for an easy wipe. I've found that he pairs extremely well with rehgar due to his burst heals, but he does not do so well with dedicated tanks like Johanna (just not enough damage). He's not great at being solo melee, so I feel like he needs a bruiser to help peel for the squishies.

 

The main guys I've had particular success with are Rehgar, Xul(Poison Nova has nice synergy with upheaval-neather and can make it difficult for the enemy team to recover. Also Bruiser with hard CC), Jaina, Medic, and KT.

 

As for bad games, generally he doesn't do so well against teams with multiple bruisers. Cho'Gall relies heavily on their abilities to deal damage and damage output decreases significantly when CDs are down. I wonder if there are playstyle adjustments to be made for different teamcomps. As mentioned before he doesn't like being the only tank very much, but if you have a hard tank like Johanna or Chen I've found the team just doesn't do enough damage.

 

What have your experiences with him been like as far as fitting him into teams go?

Surprisingly enough, I find that Cho'gall works with and against most team compositions. I will, however, go ahead and (pompously) say that my typical partner and I play an excessively... solid Cho'gall. In a lot of cases, our win condition has quite literally been in getting a lot of value out of our heroic abilities (i.e. ripping 1-2 kills away), or reaching level 20 with Gift of C'thun. They're definitely key in winning with Cho'gall.

On 12/6/2016 at 6:06 PM, Valhalen said:

I hope Blizzard give him a rework someday. All builds are the same bread and butter, he lacks diversity and the right tools to be a real threat. While he has great stage presence, having one less Hero on the team should make Cho'gall stronger as two heroes combined; yet he fails to deliver that. I love playing as Gall and I have a good friend who is an awesome Cho, but he doesn't have much presence in the meta and is so easily countered. That saddens me.

One thing I find excessively important on Cho'gall is applying constant map pressure. As I see it, it generally takes two heroes to counter his pushing; play aggressively versus one hero, and get your poking game on point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   You have pasted content with formatting.   Remove formatting

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Stan

      The first batch of hotfixes for Heroes 2.0 has arrived and the annoying bug that didn't make new talent prompts to display properly has been fixed.
      Blizzard (Source)
      Bug Fixes
      General
      Fixed an issue that could cause the game client to crash. Text found on the Gem purchase page in the Korean game client will no longer appear truncated. Corrected a translation error on the Veteran Loot Chest reward notification screen in the Taiwanese game client. User Interface
      Draft Mode: The Collection screen is no longer accessible to players in draft lobbies. In-Game: Fixed an issue in which New Talent prompts could fail to appear upon reaching the next Talent tier. In-Game: Fixed an issue that could cause Party Frames to disappear during Tutorial games. Portrait: Progression portrait border art will no longer persist on players’ portrait borders in the chat window after switching to Hero or Team League borders. Portrait: Grand Master rank lightning effects will no longer appear on non-Grand Master players’ portrait borders after switching from a party containing a Grand Master player to another party. Profile: Grand Master players’ rankings will no longer appear truncated in their profiles. Profile: Losses will now be correctly displayed in the tooltip that appears when hovering the cursor over Heroes’ win-rates on the profile’s statistics tab. Rewards: Players will now correctly receive notification that they have earned 1,000 Gems as a reward for reaching player level 5.
    • By Oxygen

      We present our fifth Heroes of the Storm Meta Tier List for the Genji patch of April 2017.
      Our fifth Heroes of the Storm Meta Tier List for the month of April 2017 is here!
      Welcome to Icy Veins's Meta Tier List for the Genji patch. The goal if of this list is to try and detail game's current metagame state. The prime goal of such lists is to inform players regarding popular and trending team composition drafting strategies (i.e. the drafting metagame). Although tier listings are generally the product of balance, many factors come into play when discussing the relative perceived strengths of heroes, including player regions, maps, play style, skill level, and, of course, personal perception. As such, any tier list - including this very one - should never be interpreted as gospel, but rather, as a guide to better grasp what to expect with regards to typical drafting experiences. One useful application of such lists is to allow you know which heroes to look out for in terms of practice and counterplay, ultimately improving your knowledge of the game.
      Using the list
      As stated above, tier lists are easy to mistake for gospel. As new strategies are discovered and experimented with, so changes the perception of the relative strengths of each hero. Tier lists still prove to be useful as a snapshot of player expectations in terms of drafting. Although it is generally considered preferable to focus on high tier heroes (Prime and Core tiers), it is important to note that Heroes of the Storm's wild character and map designs make it so that any given hero's tier position is prone to fluctuate depending on the situation at hand.
      One classic example of such is that of Kerrigan on the Infernal Shrines map. Although we currently judge her to be a mid-tier hero, her drafting priority shoots up to first-pick or first-ban material on this specific map due to the nature of its objective. Certain heroes also synergise so well with each other that the sole fact of having the opportunity of drafting them together is generally enough to increase their potential. Tassadar and Tracer, for instance, are generally nightmarish to deal with for many. There are too many examples of these interactions to reasonably produce here, but we invite you to consult our guides to know exactly where and when each hero shines. The guides have been linked in the lists below for your convenience - just click any of the hero names to access them.
      If you're newer to the game, also consider visiting our glossary for a comprehensive list of discrete Heroes of the Storm terms.
      Additionally, a + or - sign (or several of them) indicates short-to-medium term predictions (which is to say, about a month) for tier increase(s) or decrease(s), respectively. These may be updated after significant balance patches and/or when clear trends are emerging.
       
      Prime Tier
      - Prime tier heroes are considered to be extremely strong in all situations, and show no obvious weakness. They are very often banned or picked right away, as they generally dictate the pace of most matches.
       
      Core Tier
      Warrior Assassin Support Specialist Anub'arak Falstad Lúcio↓ Nazeebo Arthas Gul'dan Malfurion↓ Sylvanas Dehaka Li-Ming Rehgar Probius↑↑ Diablo Ragnaros↓ Uther↑↑   Artanis↓ Samuro     Johanna Thrall     Sonya Valla     Varian (Tank) Zeratul     Zarya       Muradin↑       Core tier heroes are strong in a wide variety of situations and have few counter-picking possibility. They should form the core of your team, and be picked after Prime Tier heroes have been distributed.
       
      Viable Tier
      Warrior Assassin Support Specialist Chen Alarak Auriel Azmodan↑ E.T.C.↓ Chromie Brightwing↓ Gazlowe Leoric Genji (new) Kharazim   Rexxar Greymane Li Li↑      Jaina↓ Lt. Morales     Kael'thas Tassadar↓     Kerrigan       Lunara       Raynor       The Butcher↑       Valeera       Varian (Damage)       Zul'jin     Viable tier heroes are generally well-rounded that have either fallen out of favour, or, inversely, are on the rise in popularity, due to the current Prime tier contenders.
       
      Niche tier
      Warrior Assassin Support Specialist Cho'gall Cassia (new) Tyrande+ Abathur Stitches Cho'gall   Medivh Tyrael Illidan   Murky   Nova   Sgt. Hammer   Tracer   The Lost Vikings   Tychus   Xul       Zagara Niche tier heroes have niche application on certain maps or for certain team compositions. They are generally picked to "round out" your team composition when your team composition is missing out on key components, such as a "jungler" (mercenary camps), a solo laner, or solid waveclear.
       
      Bottom Tier
      - Bottom tier Heroes are deemed to be either considerably weaker than the majority of other Heroes, or much more challenging to play properly. Although they may situationally shine, these Heroes are generally avoided by most players.
       
      Monthly metagame assessment
      It seems I'll have to remove two tiers for our next tier list because the game is probably in the most balanced state it's ever been. Here's to hoping it'll last because such states are great for experimenting with team compositions without feeling like you're missing out on picking or banning that one overpowered guy. What might be the cause of such a state, though? On one hand Blizzard has been (relatively) steady with the nerfs. On the other hand - and I feel this is the most important reason here - there has been an overload of e-sports, notably with HGC, to teach players how to draft.

      There isn't all that much to say today, so I'll go over the new heroes and some of the more notable bounces. Cassia's a good pick against melee-assassin-heavy team compositions, especially if your team is running their own blinding effects for that extra synergy, but she doesn't really fit in a meta that's looking to be defined by warriors and supports. This is mostly due to her limited sustained damage and keen vulnerability to crowd control. Niche tier.
      Genji's looking balanced to me, though he is very difficult to play well, and tends to be quite counterable. On top of this, since he's an Overwatch fanboy favourite, I think his win rates are going to start out really low until we have braved the initial wave of juvenile excitement that drowns him. It should be noted that two of the heroes he does really well against - Tracer and Tychus - are both out of meta themselves, meaning he might not find a place until they do. With abysmal waveclear and mercenary camp claiming, I can't really justify picking him over some of the other melee assassins. Still a good Genji is a good Genji, and the hero's surprisingly fun. Viable tier, barely.
    • By Stan

      Following the Heroes 2.0 launch, CarbotAnimations have uploaded a short cartoon trailer for the new version of the game.
      CarbotAnimations are well-known for creating funny animated videos for several Blizzard titles. We're looking at the HeroStorm 2.0 trailer, packed with cool new features!
    • By Stan

      Weekly Sales are a thing of the past. Blizzard introduced Weekly Collection Updates yesterday and every Tuesday, a number of Heroes and Cosmetics will be added into the featured items rotation. 
      Interesting Facts
      The amount of Heroes available in sales has been increased to 2 (up from 1) No Gold discounts, Gems discounts only Heroes
      The following Heroes can be purchased at a discounted Gem price. This week's an exception and contains up to 5 Heroes.
      Azmodan - 150 Gems Gazlowe - 150 Gems Murky - 312 Gems Sgt. Hammer - 312 Gems Zagara - 250 Gems Featured Items
      While these items are only unlockable using Gems for a limited time, you'll still be able to forge them using Shards after they leave the featured item rotation.
      Featured Skins
      Cobalt Mecha Tassadar Cruel Queen of Ghosts Kerrigan Frost Emberlord Zul'Jin Emeral Thunder Guard Zarya Rosy Deputy Valla Zergy Pajamathur Abathur Featured Mounts
      Rainbow Unicorn Dominion Ghost Speeder Horde Dire Wolf New Items
      Entirely new items were added yesterday, and will be available for purchase using Gems for a limited time. After that, the bundles and skin packs will be removed from the Collection. Individual skins can still be forged using Shards.
      New Skins
      Auriel
      Sakura Auriel Spring Sakura Auriel Scarlet Sakura Auriel Genji
      Oni Genji Vengeful Oni Genji Moss Oni Genji Zarya
      Cyberdemon Zarya Indigo Cyberdemon Zarya Cyborgdemon Zarya New Bundles & Skin Packs
      Genji Heroic Bundle Sakura Auriel Skin Pack Cyberdemon Zarya Skin Pack (Source)
    • By Stan

      The brawl we discovered in Beta is now live. Special Delivery comes a little sooner than brawls usually do, indicating a new day for brawl rotation.
      In Heroes 2.0, brawls now award Hero XP and instead of gold you'll get 1 rare loot chest. Special Delivery should be up for the next 8 days.
      Blizzard (Source)
      This week’s brawl is Special Delivery -  Ten Tracers, 20 Pulse Pistols, two Cores, but only one victor! Battle it out on our newest Battleground, Hanamura, with a crazy set of custom rules.
      Rules:
      Everyone is Tracer on our newest Battleground – Hanamura! Core Health and payload damage is quadrupled, including all empowered damage from destroying enemy fortifications. Killing an enemy Tracer deals one damage to that team’s Core, while killing blows from directly landing Pulse Bombs deal two. Pulse Bombs have no delay before exploding. All players start at Level 10 and have access to all talents. Tracer starts with the Total Recall level 20 talent. Capturing the boss deals 10 damage to the enemy core. Rewards:
      Complete two matches of Special Delivery to earn a Rare Loot Chest!