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Damien

Heroes of the Storm Gall

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So I heavily disagree with Twisting Neather being outright dismissed as an option. Shadowfury is an amazing heroic for taking down structures and does a great deal of single target damage when it hits, but it can be unreliable and has some pretty significant anti-synergy with upheaval (which throws all targets behind Cho). Twisting Neather does much less single target damage, but when combined with upheaval it can literally wipe entire teams. The fact that it has a built in wombo combo with upheaval is more then enough to warrant consideration. It's also a respectable AOE on it's own, but given it has a longer CD then upheaval, the two should pretty much always be used in conjunction. I will grant that twisting neather is pointless if Cho goes with the stun hammer.

 

Shove is another talent that deserves a second look. You know Vault, right? That Valla ability that instantly repositions you? Well Shove is basically that. It instantly repositions Cho'Gall wherever you want. This can be used to avoid skill shots, run away, as a secondary gap closer, and is all around extremely versatile in it's application. Granted, positioning is less important to Cho'Gall then it is to Valla, but the usefulness of giving them an instant dash should not be underestimated. It's especially useful at avoiding aoes like Johanna's circle and Jaina's Blizzard.

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So I heavily disagree with Twisting Neather being outright dismissed as an option. Shadowfury is an amazing heroic for taking down structures and does a great deal of single target damage when it hits, but it can be unreliable and has some pretty significant anti-synergy with upheaval (which throws all targets behind Cho). Twisting Neather does much less single target damage, but when combined with upheaval it can literally wipe entire teams. The fact that it has a built in wombo combo with upheaval is more then enough to warrant consideration. It's also a respectable AOE on it's own, but given it has a longer CD then upheaval, the two should pretty much always be used in conjunction. I will grant that twisting neather is pointless if Cho goes with the stun hammer.

 

Shove is another talent that deserves a second look. You know Vault, right? That Valla ability that instantly repositions you? Well Shove is basically that. It instantly repositions Cho'Gall wherever you want. This can be used to avoid skill shots, run away, as a secondary gap closer, and is all around extremely versatile in it's application. Granted, positioning is less important to Cho'Gall then it is to Valla, but the usefulness of giving them an instant dash should not be underestimated. It's especially useful at avoiding aoes like Johanna's circle and Jaina's Blizzard.

 

Good insight. After playing more, I've come to the same conclusion as you on both points. I'll be updating the guide shortly.

Here's a short clip featuring myself and Shove (and why I actually like the talent now): 

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Nice play on that Kerrigan there. As I mentioned in the Cho guide, Shove -> Z basically takes the place of Q as your dedicated escape, allowing for more offensive use of Q (I try to keep positioning related stuff in the Cho guide because it makes more sense). A couple other notes on Gall talents though.

 

For level 7, consider taking Dark Descent. 20% extra damage on Runic Blast is no joke and when combined with Runic Gauntlet it gives Cho'Gall patently ludicrous amounts of burst. Dark Descent is much stronger then your average snowball talent because getting 4 takedowns is trivial and will likely happen in your average teamfight. Cho'Gall is the perfect user of such an ability too, as your huge healthpool combined with your deceptive mobility options means that you simply should not be dieing, ever, so losing stacks is unlikely and rare.

 

As for level 4 talents, you have sold me on the joys of double back, however I will note that taking it does mean that your blobs won't go as far, which is a disadvantage if you want to play the long range poke game. Since Runic Persistence is an unadulterated piece of garbage, that leaves bomb's away, which gives your bombs a rather significant range upgrade. I'd say in most situations, double back is still probably better, but there is merit to playing the long range poke game (like trying to not die to leoric for instance).

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Nice play on that Kerrigan there. As I mentioned in the Cho guide, Shove -> Z basically takes the place of Q as your dedicated escape, allowing for more offensive use of Q (I try to keep positioning related stuff in the Cho guide because it makes more sense). A couple other notes on Gall talents though.

 

For level 7, consider taking Dark Descent. 20% extra damage on Runic Blast is no joke and when combined with Runic Gauntlet it gives Cho'Gall patently ludicrous amounts of burst. Dark Descent is much stronger then your average snowball talent because getting 4 takedowns is trivial and will likely happen in your average teamfight. Cho'Gall is the perfect user of such an ability too, as your huge healthpool combined with your deceptive mobility options means that you simply should not be dieing, ever, so losing stacks is unlikely and rare.

 

As for level 4 talents, you have sold me on the joys of double back, however I will note that taking it does mean that your blobs won't go as far, which is a disadvantage if you want to play the long range poke game. Since Runic Persistence is an unadulterated piece of garbage, that leaves bomb's away, which gives your bombs a rather significant range upgrade. I'd say in most situations, double back is still probably better, but there is merit to playing the long range poke game (like trying to not die to leoric for instance).

 

Yup, we've also started running Dark Descent, partly because it's easier to stay alive, and partly because we're just better at the hero. The Cho'gall buffs really helped his build diversity. I'll consign all of this in time.

 

I'm glad you started to appreciate Double Back. That thing is completely underrated, and I can understand why it seems like a poor choice at a first glance.

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So new patch brought good news and bad news. Good news is that bans are now a thing making it harder to counterpick Cho'Gall in ranked. Bad news is that reworked Tychus has level 1 Giant Slayer and is actually pretty hard to blow up, making him one of the few legitimate Cho'Gall counters. The worst news is that Cho'Gall is now bugged so that you cannot detonate rune bomb while using shadowbolt fury, pretty much eliminating his teamfight potential should you choose that ult (I'm personally partial to upheaval/neather, but the removal of a previously viable ulti is a nerf that cannot be understated)

 

imo these are the things that hard counter Cho Gall

 

1. Leoric: tanky, %health damage, and entomb all work to make this guy a nightmare to fight against as Cho'Gall, avoid at all costs.

 

2. Anub'arak: Cacoon takes Cho'Gall out of the fight for an unacceptable amount of time and is nearly impossible to avoid. Zagara is similarly troublesome, but unlike anub, she has no real mobility and is squishy, making her a fairly easy target for upheaval/neather. Anub has enough mobility and tankyness to avoid being bursted in this manner.

 

3. Tychus?: I need to play more games against reworked Tychus to be certain, but level 1 giant slayer + tankyness + self peel really harms Cho's ability to bully him in the early game.

 

 

I do not consider Rayner to be a counter to Cho'Gall simply because prior to level 10 you can literally walk all over him and he can't do much about it while later in the game he has no real way to avoid upheaval, bringing him into your team to get blown up before giant slayer becomes a factor. I actually consider him a rather poor choice to fight Cho'Gall.

 

I do not consider Butcher or Illidan to be counters because literally everyone loses 1v1 to them post 10 and Cho'Gall has plenty of tools to avoid being in a 1v1 situation with either of these foes. Cho'Gall has enough health to survive any burst these foes can bring against him and enough mobility to escape to wherever he needs to. Not to mention that auto attacks spent on Cho'Gall are auto attacks not being spent on your squishies, so getting focuesed by either of these heroes in teamfights is usually a recipe for victory (unless they are super ahead, in which case you just need to pray for a solid ambush to take them by surprise)

 

Hopefully Blizz will fix the ulti bug soon so that I can get back to stomping ranked with Cho'Gall.

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So new patch brought good news and bad news. Good news is that bans are now a thing making it harder to counterpick Cho'Gall in ranked. Bad news is that reworked Tychus has level 1 Giant Slayer and is actually pretty hard to blow up, making him one of the few legitimate Cho'Gall counters. The worst news is that Cho'Gall is now bugged so that you cannot detonate rune bomb while using shadowbolt fury, pretty much eliminating his teamfight potential should you choose that ult (I'm personally partial to upheaval/neather, but the removal of a previously viable ulti is a nerf that cannot be understated)

 

imo these are the things that hard counter Cho Gall

 

1. Leoric: tanky, %health damage, and entomb all work to make this guy a nightmare to fight against as Cho'Gall, avoid at all costs.

 

2. Anub'arak: Cacoon takes Cho'Gall out of the fight for an unacceptable amount of time and is nearly impossible to avoid. Zagara is similarly troublesome, but unlike anub, she has no real mobility and is squishy, making her a fairly easy target for upheaval/neather. Anub has enough mobility and tankyness to avoid being bursted in this manner.

 

3. Tychus?: I need to play more games against reworked Tychus to be certain, but level 1 giant slayer + tankyness + self peel really harms Cho's ability to bully him in the early game.

 

 

I do not consider Rayner to be a counter to Cho'Gall simply because prior to level 10 you can literally walk all over him and he can't do much about it while later in the game he has no real way to avoid upheaval, bringing him into your team to get blown up before giant slayer becomes a factor. I actually consider him a rather poor choice to fight Cho'Gall.

 

I do not consider Butcher or Illidan to be counters because literally everyone loses 1v1 to them post 10 and Cho'Gall has plenty of tools to avoid being in a 1v1 situation with either of these foes. Cho'Gall has enough health to survive any burst these foes can bring against him and enough mobility to escape to wherever he needs to. Not to mention that auto attacks spent on Cho'Gall are auto attacks not being spent on your squishies, so getting focuesed by either of these heroes in teamfights is usually a recipe for victory (unless they are super ahead, in which case you just need to pray for a solid ambush to take them by surprise)

 

Hopefully Blizz will fix the ulti bug soon so that I can get back to stomping ranked with Cho'Gall.

 

I've come to similar conclusions and will be updating the guide within the next few weeks. Thanks for the post - I more or less agree with most of it. I don't believe Tychus to be good against him, despite the true damage; that requires sustaining attacks, and with his short range, that's asking to get poked to the grave.

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So I want to ask for your advice on something, what kinds of teamcomps does Cho'Gall like to play with and against? I've been playing more Cho'Gall then before thanks to bans + bug fix and I've notice that games generally come down to team comp/team cohesion more then anything else.

 

From my experiences, he can do well in 2 comps. First is the dive comp, just because he can Q in, hammer people around to disrupt their formation, and mop up the most out of position enemy. The other is the wombo comp, where he upheaval-neathers a large portion of the enemy team into himself and the rest of the team follows up for an easy wipe. I've found that he pairs extremely well with rehgar due to his burst heals, but he does not do so well with dedicated tanks like Johanna (just not enough damage). He's not great at being solo melee, so I feel like he needs a bruiser to help peel for the squishies.

 

The main guys I've had particular success with are Rehgar, Xul(Poison Nova has nice synergy with upheaval-neather and can make it difficult for the enemy team to recover. Also Bruiser with hard CC), Jaina, Medic, and KT.

 

As for bad games, generally he doesn't do so well against teams with multiple bruisers. Cho'Gall relies heavily on their abilities to deal damage and damage output decreases significantly when CDs are down. I wonder if there are playstyle adjustments to be made for different teamcomps. As mentioned before he doesn't like being the only tank very much, but if you have a hard tank like Johanna or Chen I've found the team just doesn't do enough damage.

 

What have your experiences with him been like as far as fitting him into teams go?

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I hope Blizzard give him a rework someday. All builds are the same bread and butter, he lacks diversity and the right tools to be a real threat. While he has great stage presence, having one less Hero on the team should make Cho'gall stronger as two heroes combined; yet he fails to deliver that. I love playing as Gall and I have a good friend who is an awesome Cho, but he doesn't have much presence in the meta and is so easily countered. That saddens me.

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On 5/14/2016 at 10:08 PM, WebBowser said:

So I want to ask for your advice on something, what kinds of teamcomps does Cho'Gall like to play with and against? I've been playing more Cho'Gall then before thanks to bans + bug fix and I've notice that games generally come down to team comp/team cohesion more then anything else.

 

From my experiences, he can do well in 2 comps. First is the dive comp, just because he can Q in, hammer people around to disrupt their formation, and mop up the most out of position enemy. The other is the wombo comp, where he upheaval-neathers a large portion of the enemy team into himself and the rest of the team follows up for an easy wipe. I've found that he pairs extremely well with rehgar due to his burst heals, but he does not do so well with dedicated tanks like Johanna (just not enough damage). He's not great at being solo melee, so I feel like he needs a bruiser to help peel for the squishies.

 

The main guys I've had particular success with are Rehgar, Xul(Poison Nova has nice synergy with upheaval-neather and can make it difficult for the enemy team to recover. Also Bruiser with hard CC), Jaina, Medic, and KT.

 

As for bad games, generally he doesn't do so well against teams with multiple bruisers. Cho'Gall relies heavily on their abilities to deal damage and damage output decreases significantly when CDs are down. I wonder if there are playstyle adjustments to be made for different teamcomps. As mentioned before he doesn't like being the only tank very much, but if you have a hard tank like Johanna or Chen I've found the team just doesn't do enough damage.

 

What have your experiences with him been like as far as fitting him into teams go?

Surprisingly enough, I find that Cho'gall works with and against most team compositions. I will, however, go ahead and (pompously) say that my typical partner and I play an excessively... solid Cho'gall. In a lot of cases, our win condition has quite literally been in getting a lot of value out of our heroic abilities (i.e. ripping 1-2 kills away), or reaching level 20 with Gift of C'thun. They're definitely key in winning with Cho'gall.

On 12/6/2016 at 6:06 PM, Valhalen said:

I hope Blizzard give him a rework someday. All builds are the same bread and butter, he lacks diversity and the right tools to be a real threat. While he has great stage presence, having one less Hero on the team should make Cho'gall stronger as two heroes combined; yet he fails to deliver that. I love playing as Gall and I have a good friend who is an awesome Cho, but he doesn't have much presence in the meta and is so easily countered. That saddens me.

One thing I find excessively important on Cho'gall is applying constant map pressure. As I see it, it generally takes two heroes to counter his pushing; play aggressively versus one hero, and get your poking game on point.

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