Marco

5.3 PvP Changes

Sign in to follow this  

14 posts in this topic

Patch 5.3 will bring some significant changes to PvP, which are beneficial to the game, but strangely received negatively by some. We want to discuss the changes of several mechanics in this post, not the new battleground or arena.

PvP Resilience

The base resilience was ramped up from 40% to 65%, which is roughly what the current resilience with a full set of PvP gear is. This was done to make players with PvE gear less vulnerable in PvP and should thus reduce the frustration by a huge margin, considering that you will roughly take half the damage with 65% resilience instead of 40%. Of course all PvP Resilience stats were removed from the PvP gear, although gems can still be used to increase the PvP Power and/or PvP Resilience slightly. PvP Power and PvP Resilience were actually reduced by 50% on gems, but both stats are still viable. The set bonus that provided 1000 PvP Resilience now provides 1000 PvP Power.

PvP Power Reduction

Basically, the amount of PvP Power needed to gain 1% was increased from 265 to 400. This will decrease the damage and healing increases provided by PvP Power by roughly 33% and depending on the actual amount of PvP Power one has, their damage and healing will be decreased by roughly 10% - 14%. This change has been made to decrease the ridiculous damage that is currently done throughout burst situations. It also accounts for possibly more PvP Power due to the set bonus change in 5.3.

This change effectively increases the health pool available in PvP, as both damage and healing are decreased by an equal amount.

Healing Rebalancing

Healing was rebalanced in a way that healers without PvP Power heal significantly less than in 5.2. In 5.2 there is a debuff called ability_creature_cursed_05.jpgBattle Fatigue which reduces any non-percentage-based healing by 30%. The healing reduction will be increased to 45%. To rebalance this nerf the developers redesigned how much PvP Power actually benefits healing:

  • Healing increased for heal specs is now 100%, up from 50%, which makes PvP Power twice as useful as currently for healers.
  • Healing increased for DPS specs with a healing spec (Monk, Paladin, Priest, Shaman, Druid) is now 70%, up from 25%.
  • Healing increased for all other classes and specs is now 40%, up from 0%.
On a side note, PvP Power currently does not benefit percentage-based healing, but the changes to the other classes indicate that it will in 5.3. For example rogues only have percentage-based healing and since they will receive 40% more healing due to PvP Power, this will likely apply to their heals as well.

To evaluate whether this rebalancing act was a nerf or a buff for major heal classes, we will use two examples:

  • In 5.2 let us assume a healer has 50% PvP Power, and thus 25% more healing. They cast a basic spell that would heal 1000 health points. It is increased by PvP Power to 1250. Battle Fatigue decreases it by 30% to 875.
  • In 5.3 the same healer only has 50% PvP Power, but due to the rebalancing, it will increase their healing by 50%. The same spell is cast with a basic healing amount of 1000. Their healing is increased by 50% to 1500. Battle Fatigue is 45% now and decreases the healing amount to 825.
We can see that healers are nerfed slightly by this rebalancing act.

But the healing of DPS specs of classes that have a healing spec was rebalanced as well, so we will evaluate the same examples again:

  • In 5.2 a Windwalker Monk has 50% PvP Power, so 12.5% more healing. They cast a basic spell that would heal 1000 health points. It is increased by PvP Power to 1125. Battle Fatigue decreases it by 30% to 787.5.
  • In 5.3 the same Monk still has 50% PvP Power, which will increase their healing by 35%. The same spell is cast with a basic healing amount of 1000. Their healing is increased by 35% to 1350. Battle Fatigue decreases the healing amount by 45% to 742.5.
The conclusion that both healers and DPS specs were nerfed by roughly the same amount can be drawn at this point. Note that you will not reach 50% PvP Power anymore due to the PvP Power nerf, so the overall healing was still reduced as shown above.

Ultimately this rebalancing act has occured to make PvP gear for PvP healers still more viable than PvE gear. As healers in PvP do not have to deal any damage, and PvP gear is not needed for PvP Resilience anymore (due to the changes discussed above), it was necessary to make PvP Power more viable and thus increase the viability of PvP gear in comparison to PvE gear.

Item Level Balancing

With 5.3 the item level of PvP gear that is bought with Conquest points will be increased from 493 to 496. The item level of Elite PvP gear, which can be bought once you earned 27000 Conquest points in the season, is decreased from 512 to 496. Elite PvP gear has been changed to reduce the gap between high rated players and slightly lower rated players. Reaching 2200 rating would pose a barrier to some players that could not be transcended due to major gear differences.

The item level of any item equipped will be capped at 496 in battlegrounds, rated battlegrounds and arenas. This was mainly done to make PvE gear with an item level of 522 less viable than PvP gear with an item level of 496, as the change to PvP Resilience would possibly make high level PvE gear equally or more appealing. With 5.3, the following will apply:

  • 496 PvE gear will have roughly the same strength as 476 PvP gear that is bought with Honor points.
  • 522 PvE gear will be capped at item level 496, which makes it equally viable as 476 PvP gear and far less viable than 496 PvP gear.
Note that the cap also applies to 498 PvP weapons, so they will be downgraded, too! *gasp*

We hope we could shed some light on the major PvP changes in 5.3. They will make PvP more accessible for PvE players while retaining balance and they address the problem of gear gaps and burst situations currently prevalent in PvP. Objectively seen these are good changes to PvP, but what do you think?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand why they've made it more viable for PVE players to play PvP, but in my eyes it's kind of dumb they're two separate roles for a reason, and you strive to become greta in one or the other, or if you take the time both, they shouldn't just nerf it down to make it easier for the players who haven't put in the effort to gain the gear, just my opinion though of course

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I updated the discussion to reflect my recent findings that not only damage increased by PvP Power was reduced with the nerf, but also the healing increase. I apologize for that inconvenience - I simply misinterpreted the line "PvP Power conversion ratio to obtain 1% damage at level 90 has been changed from 265 to 400" as "it only applies to damage".

I understand why they've made it more viable for PVE players to play PvP, but in my eyes it's kind of dumb they're two separate roles for a reason, and you strive to become greta in one or the other, or if you take the time both, they shouldn't just nerf it down to make it easier for the players who haven't put in the effort to gain the gear, just my opinion though of course

Well, since having PvP gear is still the best way to be viable in PvP, I do not see a problem here. Yes, PvP players have farmed honor gear, but that is why they are more powerful than PvE players. However it is nice not to be bursted down in an instant, and these changes do the right thing exactly - reduce frustration for beginners.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand how you can pre-determine that the changes will be beneficial to the game. I would think that the jury is still out on that.

On a personal level, I feel it's a slap in the face to people who play and grind PVP gear *on a PVP server* As it stands right now, PVE gear is BIS outside of PVP instances.

Edited by Geeguspius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand how you can pre-determine that the changes will be beneficial to the game. I would think that the jury is still out on that.

On a personal level, I feel it's a slap in the face to people who play and grind PVP gear *on a PVP server* As it stands right now, PVE gear is BIS outside of PVP instances.

And PvP gear is still the best gear in the PvP game modes that matter: BG, RBG and Arena. World PvP is an issue now, yes, because the items are not scaled down there, but World PvP neither had balancing nor needs it, as it is just a cool feature, not one that was intended to be of competitive nature.

I can determine that this is a good change, because - regarding the PvP Power nerf - less damage and less healing mean that you live longer, so you have more time to take some action. And the PvP Resilience change is a good change, because it allows more players to play PvP with less frustration, yet it keeps PvP gear BiS.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As of right now, askmrrobot.com shows PVE gear as being BIS in in every slot except weapon for my 90 Priest. I assume that is outside of PVP instances. I haven't checked my 90 DK and Pally yet, but it wouldn't amaze me if the results are much the same on them. That is unacceptable, especially on a PVP server.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As of right now, askmrrobot.com shows PVE gear as being BIS in in every slot except weapon for my 90 Priest. I assume that is outside of PVP instances. I haven't checked my 90 DK and Pally yet, but it wouldn't amaze me if the results are much the same on them. That is unacceptable, especially on a PVP server.

Ask Mr. Robot does not have PvP stat weights right now and uses a copy of the PvE stat weigths. You should not make an unfinished tool (They are working hard to improve that, though) your number 1 source of judgment, but instead apply some common sense. If every top tier PvP player uses PvP gear, what will be best in slot? Well, PvP gear I suppose. And again, World PvP was not meant to be balanced in the first place. If you try to please everyone, you fail to please anyone. Blizzard knows this as well, and they are well aware of the fact that they had to set priorities. In my opinion they chose the right priorities and improved core PvP gameplay, while one minor aspect of PvP suffered a bit. You can still go out there and do World PvP, it is not like they suddenly made PvE gear 200% more useful in that situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ask Mr. Robot does not have PvP stat weights right now and uses a copy of the PvE stat weigths. You should not make an unfinished tool (They are working hard to improve that, though) your number 1 source of judgment, but instead apply some common sense. If every top tier PvP player uses PvP gear, what will be best in slot? Well, PvP gear I suppose. And again, World PvP was not meant to be balanced in the first place. If you try to please everyone, you fail to please anyone. Blizzard knows this as well, and they are well aware of the fact that they had to set priorities. In my opinion they chose the right priorities and improved core PvP gameplay, while one minor aspect of PvP suffered a bit. You can still go out there and do World PvP, it is not like they suddenly made PvE gear 200% more useful in that situation.

Which finished tool are you using for your source of judgment? How do you apply common sense to what Blizzard does, lol??

I agree that WPVP is not balanced and probably never has been. But I say the it should swing in favor of a PVP'er, not a PVE'er. You PVP in WPVP, you don't PVE.

I don't see any warnings about BIS being incorrect for the WPVP environment at Askmrrobot. I do believe they are showing me the BIS for PVP outside of instances, which IS mostly PVE gear.

From what I gather, they don't have the info for INISDE of PVPinstances.

Yes, it does appear that PVE gear is BIS for PVP in WPVP, it can be up to ~ 40 ilvls higher.

Edited by Geeguspius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Which finished tool are you using for your source of judgment? How do you apply common sense to what Blizzard does, lol??

I agree that WPVP is not balanced and probably never has been. But I say the it should swing in favor of a PVP'er, not a PVE'er. You PVP in WPVP, you don't PVE.

I don't see any warnings about BIS being incorrect for the WPVP environment at Askmrrobot. I do believe they are showing me the BIS for PVP outside of instances, which IS mostly PVE gear.

From what I gather, they don't have the info for INISDE of PVPinstances.

Yes, it does appear that PVE gear is BIS for PVP in WPVP, it can be up to ~ 40 ilvls higher.

I use my brain as a tool and don't believe everything a tool tells me on the Internet, especially when it's unfinished.

Quote from Ask Mr. Robot's Gearing Strategy Tab:

PvP: Default

Hit (7.5%) > Agi > Exp > Haste > Crit > Mastery

These are auto-generated from the default PvE weights. More thorough PvP weights are forthcoming.

This is for the Windwalker Monk. You don't need 7.5% hit in PvP, but 3%. And at least 3% Expertise as well, to reach the spell hit cap. You can not rely on those values, because they are a copy of the PvE weights. PvE and PvP are entirely different game modes. It shows PvE gear best in slot because it does not know better.

Also, weigh 36% more damage due to PvP Power against an itemlevel increase of at average maybe 20 levels. Although it is an issue, having one more enemy or one more ally is more significant than having PvE or PvP gear. You can not say that one can have 476 honor gear and the other one 522 raid gear. These are two entirely different tiers. You can however compare 496 conquest gear and 522 raid gear, and this comparison will not show a huge difference due to the PvP Power that is an additional and free stat on the conquest item.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your brain is wrong on this one. It appears that the only time PVP gear outweighs PVE gear as BIS is inside of PVP instances. High level PVE gear rules over most conquest gear in WPVP. The weapon appears to be an exception.

Edited by Geeguspius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your brain is wrong on this one. It appears that the only time PVP gear outweighs PVE gear as BIS is inside of PVP instances. High level PVE gear rules over most conquest gear in WPVP. The weapon appears to be an exception.

You don't get my argumentation. I admit that high level PvE gear is probably better in World PvP than standard PvP gear; Yet it does not matter since the change was positive for the rest of PvP gameplay, which makes up the significant amount of the PvP experience (the way you phrase it as "the only time" is very misleading). And I say as well that best in slot does not mean other things are not viable anymore. It is your turn to prove that PvE gear in World PvP is better by margins, not only by a slight amount.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have yet to prove that the change is positive. We can both make general statements. You seem to agree with mine that PVE gear can be better in WPVP.

Edited by Geeguspius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, it is clear to me that reducing frustration for new players and PvE players in PvP is a good change. I tried to argue that the World PvP has not been changed by a significant margin, and it would be indeed up to me to prove that. However, stating the counter argument also makes it mandatory for you to prove that the change was significant. The question is, who's going to crunch numbers now? ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, it is clear to me that reducing frustration for new players and PvE players in PvP is a good change. I tried to argue that the World PvP has not been changed by a significant margin, and it would be indeed up to me to prove that. However, stating the counter argument also makes it mandatory for you to prove that the change was significant. The question is, who's going to crunch numbers now? Posted Image

The numbers will get crunched with the release of Q2 quarterly reports. Whether there is a huge change between stats, there will probably be a perceived one. Perception means a lot.

Just got my tyrannical shoulders. There were 27 PVE shoulders that were better for PVP.

My counter argument is that the change is not good and it will increase frustration on the PVP side. My argument is just as valid as yours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By PinkFap
      Quick info:
      <Shiny Happy People>
      Faction: Alliance
      Realm: Thunderhorn / Wildhammer
      Laid back Heroic raiding
      Semi-serious PvP
      Raid days: Twice a week with a possible third if we're close to downing a boss.
      Website
      Discord
      Contact: PinkFap#2713
      Current recruitment needs:
      Mainly looking for ranged DPS and healers of any class. Tank OS is a big plus.
      TL;DR:
      <SHP> Is looking for lost souls to join us in BFA. We're accepting both socials and people willing to take a serious(ish) approach to Heroic raiding and PvP. We're long-time friends and former hardcore raiders going as far back as Vanilla. We're going casual+ for BFA to enjoy ourselves better and play the game under our own more laid back rules. We're highly active both ingame as well as in our Discord channel. Most of all we're looking for like-minded people who enjoy doing stuff together.
      Full info:
      Wagwan blud,
      We are Shiny Happy People! A group of super duper fun, friendly and fun-loving friends who have known and played with each other for many years. We're a very diverse bunch. We have white Dutchman, white Englishman and white Vikingman. A more culturally diverse group you cannae havenae.
      While we play many different games, this recruitment ad' primary focus is on World of Warcraft. It is our 'main' game and it requires a bit more organization and has a slightly higher barrier to entry than some of the other games we play. However joining SHP means gaining entry to much fun being had with many good people across a wide variety of PC video games.
      Our guild was founded by a large group of rerollers in Warlords of Draenor shortly after the launch of the Hellfire Citadel patch. As the guild Movida we cleared HFC on Heroic in a timely manner and also had a short but fruitless stint in Mythic. Due to a lack of good recruits the guild fell apart and anyone with a grain of skill promptly fucked off for greener pastures.
      In comes SHP; A long-standing semi-small group of friends hell-bent on not really doing much or changing at all for the Battle For Azeroth expansion. We're a bunch of uncensored slackers trying to have some fun in this outdated piece of shit we still pay for on a monthly basis. We have been together for many years playing many different games but WoW was the love song that made us come together and continues to serenade us back in. All this means that SHP is built upon a rock solid foundation that will stand the test of time.
      Despite adopting the life of the casual we are by no means trash players. Some of us have played and raided since launch. Most of us have raided on a hardcore Heroic/Mythic level at some point in this game' lifespan. A lot of that raiding was even done together. But we've decided that Mythic simply is too stressful and too time consuming for a bunch of twenty-something-year-old single (mostly) men. I mean, some of us have oil night at the Chaps Cruising-Bar to go to!
      With that in mind we've decided we want to take things slow and enjoy WoW the way it was meant to be enjoyed; Barely. We will be a Heroic focused raiding guild, weaving in some semi-serious PvP to get rid of our toxic male hormones and to get some sweet transmogs and mounts. Raid days and times TBA. We have no strict attendance rules. Odds are you scrubs bring about as much to the table as an LFR hero and are thus easily replaced by a PUG anyway. We do ask that you let someone know if you can't make it to a raid you signed up for. Wether that is before raid start or 2 days after.
      If you think you have what it takes to play with us and then not report us then head to our website and drop an application or join our Discord and bother someone there. For questions or concerns you can contact me on my Bnet.
      Thank you for reading!
    • By Babblet
      Location: Horde, US Connected Realms: Aegwynn, Bonechewer, Daggerspine, Gurubashi, Hakkar. 
      Raiding Times: Mon/Tue 8:00 PM EST - 12:00 PM EST
       
      About us:
      We are former nolife raiders who now enjoy spending time outside our basements in the real world. Our total play time has decreased slightly but we still strive to meaningfully progress our characters through end game raiding. Currently we are recruiting new members to help us progress in the upcoming expansion. Join us and lets slay Dragons together!
      Apply if you are:
      interested in end game content; M+ Dungeons and Heroic/Mythic Raiding capable of critical thought and willing to contribute when discussing strategy a self-starter who plays to improve and keeps up to date with latest theorycraft always on time and reliable  
      Recruitment Status: currently recruiting Ranged DPS, Melee DPS, Healing classes.
       
      Contacts/Battle Tags:
      Shig#1825 (Guild Master)
      Silvadine#1273 (Officer)
      Discord:
      Shig#8835
      Silvadine#1277
    • By Phyaaka
      <Protectorate of the Lion> Is a laid back guild filled with kind and active players going into BfA. While we are sitting around 115 members, we make sure to keep people from getting lost in the crowd. Everyone has a place here! We have class leaders to help new or returning players get better acquainted with their specs! We also do PVP a lot as well as weekly raiding Friday/Saturday/Sunday! We have an RP campaign kind of like a band of brothers group going through Dark shore currently trying to rescue survivors and recover fallen Lions. Our story is a Flexastructured meaning we start with a direction we'll head and the rest is character driven instead of railroading, we're all about character development and discovery. We have an active Discord aswell! Join today and defend the Alliance. 
      Phyaaka - The CoGM of <The Protectorate of the Lion>
    • By RunningWithTurtles
      WE GOT BITCHES!!! Now that I caught your attention, Running with Turtles is a gaming community preparing for war. We are seeking all Alliance members who wish to get geared out for BFA. We operate through discord and will be focusing on PVP and PVE. We do accept Horde members but we are mainly Alliance... So what are you waiting for? Join today discord.gg/gMug6DN
    • By gregn6238
      Hey guys, I'm doing a small study looking into why players chose to play in PvP realms and why others chose RP. It would be much appreciated if you all could just post a quick reply with a few words regarding why you chose which and your age (if you feel comfortable). Thanks you!