Zadina

wow Legion: End-Game Rewards System Explained

4 posts in this topic

32NFLMEGF6S51466534867731.jpg

Ion "Watcher" Hazzikostas made an extensive post detailing the end-game rewards system in Legion, as well as the random item upgrades. Read on to find out how item level and loot will work in the upcoming expansion.

In Legion, every item from an end-game source (dungeon, raid, world quest, PvP strongbox, mission, etc.) has a base item level and a chance to be upgraded (an upgradeable item will be marked with a "+"). When you earn an upgradeable item, the system rolls for a +5 upgrade. If it succeeds, it continues to roll for +5 upgrades until it fails or you reach the item-level cap. This cap will be around 850 ilvl for the first two weeks after Legion's launch and 895 ilvl once the Emerald Nightmare raid and Mythic+ dungeons are introduced. Titanforged items are the ones that roll an item level upgrade of +15 or more, they are simply "better Warforged items".

A lot of people have criticised this system for being too random and luck-dependent. However, Watcher has an answer to this: the players' item level will still be equivalent to the type and difficulty of content they are doing. There is just an additional chance for a player to get an extremely good item, which is way better that the content he/she does - this, however, will be a rare and very random occurrence. In essence, players within the same guild and doing the same type of content will have pretty much the same item level.

Bear in mind that this new system will apply to Hellfire Citadel, once the Legion pre-patch hits the live servers!

Blizzard LogoWatcher

+ Show
There's a fair bit of confusion around how item level of end-game rewards works in Legion - understandable, since we haven't really gone into detail about how the system works, instead focusing on high-level goals and philosophies. Let me take a crack at changing that.

Scaling vs. Static Item Level - "Anything Can Happen"

This came up in the first Legion Q&A a couple of weeks ago, but in past expansions, the endgame item structure has always been defined by a rigid series of flat plateaus. In Warlords, Normal dungeon loot was Item Level 615. Heroic dungeon loot was 630. Normal Highmaul was 655. And so forth. Once you had Raid Finder gear or better, there was zero value to items from dungeons. In patch 6.2, Tanaan Jungle only offered Baleful items that could be empowered up to item level 695. If you were a Hellfire Citadel raider, setting out to do Tanaan dailies (to unlock flying, let's say), there was zero chance that anything could happen during that play session that might make your character stronger. And in a game underscored by progression, that's a shame.

In essence, Legion changes those flat item-level plateaus into peaks that taper up to a global max potential item level.

When you earn an item from nearly any endgame source (dungeon, raid, world quest, PvP strongbox, mission, etc.), it has a chance of upgrading its quality. When looking at information on your rewards in sources like the Dungeon Journal or World Quest display, you'll see these items with a "+" next to their item level, indicating this chance to upgrade (e.g. the Dungeon Journal for Heroic Legion dungeons showing "Item Level 825+").

While there's a bunch of math behind it all, this may be a useful way of thinking about it: When generated, these items have a chance to roll a +5 item level bonus. If that roll succeeds, the system rolls again for another +5 bonus. If that succeeds, it rolls again. This process continues until an upgrade roll fails or the global item-level ceiling is reached. That's it.

And so, in Legion, even if you're a raider, if your friend is looking for someone to queue Heroic dungeons, you have an extra motivation to volunteer aside from pure altruism. You probably won't get an upgrade. But you might. Anything could happen.

"Titanforged" - What's the Deal?

Titanforged is just a label that applies when an item successfully upgrades by +15 or more item levels. It isn't really an inherent part of the system itself, but rather something we added midway through development to make it clear when you just got exceptionally lucky.

RNG, Progression, and Prestige

A frequent concern with the Legion item system is that the very possibility of a Mythic-raid-quality item coming from a quest or dungeon boss cheapens those rewards. But there's a huge difference between a single Mythic-quality item and a full set of gear of that quality. A player who mainly queues for Dungeon Finder and Raid Finder may end up with a couple of great raid-quality pieces, but that's a far cry from what someone who actually does high-end raiding will look like. Ditto for someone who casually queues for BGs compared to a top-rated arena player. After all, it requires far fewer lucky breaks for a Mythic Nightmare raid drop to make it to Item Level 895 than it would for a Heroic dungeon blue, by a huge margin. Your overall gear will still reflect the type and difficulty of content that you do, but a broader range of activities can be rewarding, and a broader range of players can have moments of surprise and excitement along the way.

Another concern raised in this thread relates to the impact of randomness on competitive progression. First off, the explanation above references a "global item-level ceiling" - that's simply a cap on how far any item can upgrade, and it's a value that will be set in relation to the highest available base item levels from the most difficult available content. Once Mythic+ dungeons and the Nightmare Raid are accessible, that value will be 895 (and that's the value to which the cap is currently set in beta). But for the first couple of weeks after launch, we're planning on having a lower cap in the 850s, since there is nothing available above that base item level. In the future, as new content is introduced, the ceiling will rise accordingly. Even the very luckiest person in the world won't be walking into raids and outgearing them on day one.

Finally, we're dealing with upgrade chances on individual item slots out of 16, belonging to individual characters out of 10-30 in a raid group. A single item won't make or break your raid's success. The law of averages suggests that raid groups that complete roughly the same amount of content will end up with roughly the same item level. We feel that the system will be a significant improvement to the individual gearing experience without harming guild competition. (source)

 


 

My main question was - will Heroic and Mythic raid gear be able to upgrade past Warforged?

Since "past Warforged" just means "by more than +10 item levels over base," the answer to that is "yes."

Let me use some entirely made-up numbers as an example:

Let's assume that the chance to upgrade is 50% per +5 step to simplify the math. Clearly that is NOT the actual chance, as anyone who's been playing at max level on Beta can attest. But let's pretend that whenever an item drops, we flip a coin and bump the item level by +5 every time it comes up Heads. And we continue until we either flip a Tails OR the item reaches Item Level 895.

Let's consider three Emerald Nightmare drops: one from Raid Finder (835+), one from Heroic (865+), and one from Mythic (880+).

The Mythic Nightmare raid drop is guaranteed to be at least 880. We flip our imaginary coin (again, these are NOT the actual odds...). 50% of the time it'll come up Heads (woo, 885!), so we flip again. Again, half of the time we get this far (25% chance total, now) it'll come up Heads again (890!). And so we flip yet again, and yet again half the time we make it this far, we'll get yet another Heads (12.5% total). That bumps the item to 895, which is the cap, so we stop flipping coins and the item ends up at +15 over the base 880, which makes it Titanforged.

Using these hypothetical, made-up numbers, if you looted the same item from a Mythic Nightmare boss 8 times, you'd expect on average to see four 880 versions, 2 885 versions, 1 890 version, and 1 895 version.

Now let's look at the Heroic base item. That starts at 865, so you'd need to upgrade it six times (i.e. flip six Heads in a row, using our analogy) for it end up at 895. I'm not going to step through the probability tree again, but the 1/8 chance above now becomes a 1/64 chance. You'd need to loot 64 Heroic Nightmare raid items on average to see a single 895. The Titanforged chance (again, not the actual odds!!) would still be 1 in 8 (12.5%), since that just means 3 successful consecutive coinflips, but that would only bring the item to 880. You need to get much luckier to get all the way to 895.

Finally, our Raid Finder item. With a base Item Level of 835, it needs to upgrade 12 times to make it all the way to 895. Long story short, that's a 1 in 4096 chance of being 895. Let's say you get 2-3 items a week from fully clearing Raid Finder. You'd need to run Raid Finder every week for over 21 years in order to have a >50% chance of seeing a 895 item out of Emerald Nightmare LFR. By that time, we'll all be in item level 4000 gear as we play the latest Corgis Unleashed expansion on our VR decks (unlike the rest of this post, this part is entirely factual). But hey, you'll probably have that 895 Raid Finder item. Or you still might not. Still feel mandatory?

As this example hopefully illustrates, you're best off spending your time on the most challenging/rewarding content that you can tackle. This isn't destroying the foundations of WoW itemization and replacing it with massive randomness - by and large, players will progress through content of increasing difficulty and/or organization requirement, earning more and more powerful items as they go. (source)

 


 

I'm going to assume that items can also roll warforged, for a maximum of 901? That's totally cool by me, but confirmation would be neato. Haven't managed to find an example of a high-TF WF item on beta yet.

Nope. "Warforged" as you know it in Warlords is gone with Legion, and isn't a separate system stacked on top of this one.

A "Warforged" item is one that got moderately lucky rolls (+5 or +10 over base). "Titanforged" kicks in once you cross the +15 threshold.

895 is the highest item level you will see while Emerald Nightmare is the active raid zone. (source)

So, now that we know more about the new end-game reward and item upgrade system, what do you think of it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Inb4 it's still going to affect progress races hard and will very frustrating if somebody next to you gets that item.

Giving some crunch meaning to questing, heroics, missions etc. though is a good patch work over WoD. But it can be an overkill, boosting 24/7 grinders /:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RNG has always been the pain in the back, and still is, it doesn't kill us or the game.

I'm more excited to see if good old players come back again like they did for WoD. I mean WoD was hyped like hell and even Kungen came back with his guild. Are they going to come back again? And more importantly if the game disappoint them again, will they ever trust Blizzard? Is WoW going to die if this happens? hope not...

Such a great game, A big ship that we traveled with over the years, watching it sink is just tragic...

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so basically they are using destiny's loot system now. rng plus a loose association of what your current ilvl is determines applicability of loot. i want to say i hate this, but I've dropped countless hours into destiny as well and the system works okay. i'm not sure though i like the streamlined ilvl thing. certainly in a progression guild rng favoring someone can be frustrating but it also benefits the whole. when our arcane mage had full tier before any of us had our one piece, he became a beatstick that made beating the bosses easier.

so i can say the loot system works. however, it can be more of a time sink and you fall into diablo type problems. you get loot constantly but its underpowered crap that you can't use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Stan

      Farseer's Raging Tempest is Shaman's Class Mount in 7.2. You're sent to the Throne of Four Winds to assist Thunderaan in the new Gathering of the Storms Scenario. 
      Gathering of the Storms
      Thunderaan has asked me to send you to the Throne of the Four Winds to assist him with a situation.

      Speak with me again when you're ready to leave, Farseer. The quest is quite short. Three color tints are available for the mount and in the recent build Elemental / Enhancement tints were swapped. Elementals have the fiery appearance now and Enhancement Shamans get the airy mount. The Restoration spec's appearance should be more watery, but what's weird is that it has more thunders than the Enhancement spec for now.
      Shamans get one of the coolest class mounts, because the vast majority uses existing animations of past mounts.
    • By Babblet
      Location: Horde – US Connected Realms: The Venture Co - Maelstrom - Lightninghoof
      About us:
      Converge has been around since WoW Vanilla and has been raiding together since Molten Core; most of our members have been playing together for years. In its older days, when most of us where young, we were more raid focused and demanded a lot from our members. Over the years we had to adjust our playtime and priorities with a growing list of RL responsibilities and are now, for all intents and purposes, a two day raiding guild. We had to cut our total hours spent playing WoW but we still remain just as competitive and result oriented.
      Mandatory reading.
      Basics: ilvl 885+; 40+ points in MS Artifact Weapon; DMG Dealers 400k+ DPS ST.
      Raiding 101: ability to execute/avoid fight mechanics; communicate in English and use a microphone.
      We raid twice a week, a total of 8 hours; attendance of 90% is mandatory. We require you to function at 100% from the second the raid starts all the way to its end; if you cannot commit to a raiding schedule and be online on time this is not a guild for you.
      GRepairs and flasks are provided by GBank; members pitch in mats and/or gold to help out. Guilds preparedness to raid and supply its members with enchants/etc is a team effort. If you are accepted as a member be prepared to do your part.
      Raid Times: 8:00 PM – 12:00 AM Eastern Time – Monday/Tuesday.
      Recruitment: Currently we are only accepting Ranged DPS / Heals.
       
      Legion Progression:
      EN 7/7 Normal - 7/7 Heroic
      ToV 3/3 Normal - 3/3 Heroic
      NH 10/10 Normal - 7/10 Heroic
       
      Contacts:
      Battle.net BTag: Sodium#11394
    • By Stan

      Ion conducted a Q/A yesterday and Lore came to the forums to answer additional questions about Legendary items, revolving around bad luck protection and Relinquished items.
      It deals with bad luck protection for every spec and how the system handles Legendary items that can drop for more than a single spec. The unidentified Legendary items we reported about earlier were just a developer idea with the intent to fix loot specialization and Legendaries. It won't be implemented now as bad luck protection will now function for every spec individually. Legendary items targetting was also confirmed via Relinquished items.
      Lore (Source)
      1) How does the above work in regards to Non-spec-based Legendaries (like Shard of the Exodar for mages, who works for all 3 specs. Does it account for ALL specs, or just the one that it was dropped on?
      If a Legendary can drop for your spec, it counts. An easy way to check this is to open the Adventure Guide ingame (Shift-J by default) and click the "Loot" tab without having a dungeon or raid selected. That'll show you which Legendaries are counted for your spec.
      2) Very similar to the above, how do items like Prydaz, Xavaric's Magnum Opus/Sephuz's Secret/Kil'jaeden's Burning Wish etc work under this system? Does it count for the spec it dropped on, or for all specs?
      Same as above.
      3) The PTR has had "Unidentified <Class> Legendary" items in its database for a while, and it's been speculated that these were a 'failsafe' for people accidentally getting a legendary in the 'wrong spec' and blowing their accrued Bad Luck Protection -- are these unidentified items still going live, are they going to be scrapped in light of the spec-based droprate/BLP ? If they are going live, is it intended behavior that people could play offspecs with low number of legendaries, or none, get these items quickly (since the first 2 legendaries drop faster), and then swap to their 'main spec' as a way to get a few more legendaries 'quickly' (in comparison to the norm) ?
      These were part of an experimental concept that we've since decided not to go ahead with, at least for now. The idea wasn't exactly what you're speculating, but our concerns were similar.
      4) How does BLP 'acquisition' work under this new spec-based system? Do I 'build up' BLP for all specs as I play, or only for the one currently set as my Loot Specialization? If it builds for all of them, this has possible unintended consequences, where once I get an item in 1 spec, I know I should swap to the others and get items 'relatively fast' since the BLP is built up a fair bit (assuming it wasn't RNGesus giving you an item very very early on)
      This one I'm actually not certain on the answer, but I'll look into it.
      So basically if you have utility legendaries you are even more screwed than before because you already have that many legendaries for every spec.
      I can see where you're coming from, but I'd make the argument that if you have cross-spec Legendaries and play multiple specs, you're already at an advantage in that they're functional for your other specs. I have the Leggings of The Black Flame and Unison Spaulders on my Mistweaver; neither of them do anything at all when I play Brewmaster.
      I feel like this comes back to a lot of the utility legendaries are still just "bad" some like Prydaz, Xavaric's Magnum Opus and Sephuz's Secret are better. But there are other's like Acherus Drapes and Uther's Guard that remain disappointing as ever to receive. I leveled a DK as a fun alt, got Acherus Drapes as its first legendary, i am tempted to just delete the character and try again if I had gotten Prydaz i wouldn't have felt this way as it has far more value. Or i have been considering leveling my warrior and just hoping for better luck. You mentioned this in the QA but please take a close look at all the legendarys (including healer ones). To make sure there aren't so many egregious outliers, i should emphasize this is a much larger problem for healers right now than DPS.
      Yep, this is the important point to remember: if a legendary just sucks, then that's the problem we need to fix. Similarly, if your spec sucks without a particular legendary, then that legendary also needs to be fixed to not be so impactful.

      Regarding Prydaz, specifically: It's maybe not the most exciting legendary right now, but it's certainly strong. The stats make it a solid, reliable throughput upgrade, and in the immortal words of Sebudai: "It's pretty easy to figure out how much DPS you're doing as a corpse on the ground."

      As for Sephuz: it has a weird, but temporary, issue. When you only have one or two legendaries, it sucks that it does nothing on the fights where you can't proc it. No argument there. Eventually, though, you'll have a third legendary, and it opens up for some interesting gameplay, where you swap it on for fights with a lot of dispels, interrupts, or controllable targets, and swap it out for the ones that don't. It's not always useful, but it's really good when it is. That's not a bad thing.

      Those seem to be the two that most commonly come up as "bad," but we'll keep discussing the other options as well. I know there's a few tweaks planned to some that haven't yet hit the PTR.

      Overall, though, I just wanted to drive home the point that if you're upset at how long it might take you to get your next Legendary because the ones you have are bad, we want to fix that by making the ones you have better.
      We.Want.A.Way.To.Target.Spec.Specific.Slot.Specific. BEST IN SLOT.
      A) I think your spacebar is broken.

      B) You'll be able to do exactly that through the Relinquished gear tokens in Patch 7.2.
      Wait, was this a confirmation that we can actually target slots?
      Correct. The current plan is that if you purchase a Relinquished token for, say, shoulders, and it gives you a legendary, it gives you legendary shoulders.

      Massive wall of caveats here just because I don't want to over-promise:
      This is PTR. Anything can change at any moment. Many things already have. We don't have a solid handle yet on how long it will take to earn these things, or what the chance of them becoming a legendary will be. We need to be confident that the Broken Shore content itself is stabilized before we can start figuring out things like how quickly you earn Nethershards or how much these tokens cost. Their primary purpose is still as catch-up gear, similar to what was available on the Timeless Isle or Hellfire Peninsula. We don't consider this a "silver bullet" solve to all legendary-related issues, and aren't trying to make it be one. Still, if you just desperately want that one specific legendary, this might be an option worth considering.
    • By Stan

      Blizzard's trying to fix the issue of Legendary items and loot specialization with unidentified Legendaries. Every time a Legendary item drops, you'll be able to switch between specs and then discover a Legendary appropriate for your specialization.
      Update: Lore confirmed in a blue post that these were part of a concept that they won't go live with at least for now.
      Lore (Source)
      These were part of an experimental concept that we've since decided not to go ahead with, at least for now. The idea wasn't exactly what you're speculating, but our concerns were similar. It's interesting that the items are bound to Battle.net Account, so you might end up mailing them to your alt (must be the same class) on a different realm.
      Unidentified Death Knight Legendary Unidentified Demon Hunter Legendary Unidentified Druid Legendary Unidentified Hunter Legendary Unidentified Mage Legendary Unidentified Monk Legendary Unidentified Paladin Legendary Unidentified Priest Legendary Unidentified Rogue Legendary Unidentified Shaman Legendary Unidentified Warlock Legendary Unidentified Warrior Legendary Don't forget that crafted Legendary items are coming in 7.2 and the latest build added affixes and made them BoE.
      Celumbra, the Night's Dichotomy Rethu's Incessant Courage The Sentinel's Eternal Refuge Vigilance Perch Please note the nature of PTR. Anything may change before Patch 7.2 goes live.
    • By Stan

      Further fixes for Legendary items underway. Relinquished items were introduced in the latest build of 7.2 (#23623). The items are unique per slot and have a chance to contain Legendary items.
      Relinquished Items
      The persisting problem with Legendaries is that you don't get the one you want or need. Not anymore though. Relinquished items discover an item appropriate for your loot specialization and not only that, they have a chance to contain a Legendary item, most likely on a slot-per-slot basis.
      Relinquished Bracers Relinquished Choker Relinquished Cloak Relinquished Gauntlets Relinquished Girdle Relinquished Hood Relinquished Leggings Relinquished Ring Relinquished Spaulders Relinquished Treads Relinquished Trinket Relinquished Tunic Example: Relinquished Hood may contain only Head slot Legendary items, such as Darckli's Dragonfire Diadem or Uncertain Reminder. Such slot restrictions increase the chances of getting the Legendary item you want. The question is what's the probability of getting a Legendary item?
      Unidentified Legendary Items
      Update: Unidentified Legendary items were considered, but they won't go live as bad luck protection for individual specializations will be implemented.
      The previous build (#23578) added items that create Legendaries based on your set loot spec. This may represent an overall fix for loot spec problems. I think unidentified Legendaries will drop by default and we won't need to worry about loot spec.
      Unidentified Death Knight Legendary Unidentified Demon Hunter Legendary Unidentified Druid Legendary Unidentified Hunter Legendary Unidentified Mage Legendary Unidentified Monk Legendary Unidentified Paladin Legendary Unidentified Priest Legendary Unidentified Rogue Legendary Unidentified Shaman Legendary Unidentified Warlock Legendary Unidentified Warrior Legendary Taken from here.
      What do you think about the latest changes?