Havoc Demon Hunter 7.3

[wordup 37]

2 hours ago, Guest Eveonor said:

So... am I doing it wrong if I am using Vengeful Rethreat and then instead of running back to boss I just use Fel Rush to get to him and continue normal rotation?

 

I have also another question. " Cast Fel Rush with Fel Mastery taken at 70 or lower Fury, or if you are about to hit 2 charges." or " Cast Fel Rush with Fel Mastery taken at 70 or lower Fury, or if you are about to hit 2 charges at >3 targets"

Does it mean that I have to damage enemies with both charges of Fel Rush or does it mean that the spell is going to refill soon and I should avoid stacking it to 2, that one charge should always be used?

As of right now without Momentum factored in, using Vengeful Retreat then using Fel Rush to re-engage is fine, but when it comes to Legion gameplay that will be a bad habit and a difficult one to break.

Generally speaking you should be trying to move across a bosses hitbox with Fel Rush and Vengeful Retreat so you don't rely on using a second movement tool to get back in.

[wordup 37]

1 hour ago, leapingshadow said:

If I am using demon blades as my tier 2 talent. Exactly how much fury can 1 swing generate? and why would you want to risk going all the way up to 70 energy since ive generated more than 30 energy in 1 attack meaning wasted fury.

Edit:

After testing, the values you have given are incorrect,  Demon Blades on the other hand slows down your pace significantly by removing your active generation tool Demon's Bite, and replacing it with a 75% chance proc from auto attacks to deal additional Shadow damage and grant 10-15 Fury. From what i've tested, each swing can generate 15-35 fury meaning that 2 melee weapon swings can generate at least 30 fury and at max 70 fury.

Re-checking these just now, it appears the value has been changed to 15-20 so I'll get that put in asap. That means the maximum would be 40 per swing total, but it's definitely not as big a gap as 35 (I suspect that could be you getting double procs and misinterpreting that as a single).

I'd also advise for clarification on resource management with Demon Blades checking the dedicated section on it in the Rotation area, which does note that aggressively dumping Fury more frequently is more beneficial.

[Guest DHNewb]

Question: If going with the demon blades talent would Haste weight more in the stat priority? Meaning that with nuff haste a Havoc DH would be generating fury nonstop and allowing to forfeith crit proc from CS to continue the sustained CS spam? Say with 50% haste (counting Enchants -Warsong both weapons for now- but no Lust/Hero).

[leapingshadow 50]

I have looked at the demon blades rotation again. However, whilst testing I found that during the Chaos Strike spam section, I am still finding myself capping at 100 power due to the banked fury I am getting.

Edit:

I'm not sure if this is due to my haste or whatever but, whenever I use throw glaive, i wait until I attack with my weapons then I use it so that I do not bank any fury. However I always seem to bank fury I don't really know whats going on.

Edited August 12, 2016 by leapingshadow

[wordup 37]

1 hour ago, Guest DHNewb said:

Question: If going with the demon blades talent would Haste weight more in the stat priority? Meaning that with nuff haste a Havoc DH would be generating fury nonstop and allowing to forfeith crit proc from CS to continue the sustained CS spam? Say with 50% haste (counting Enchants -Warsong both weapons for now- but no Lust/Hero).

Haste interacts with Demon Blades in a similar way to non Demon Blades builds, it doesn't alter the stat priority. The reduced GCD helps with Demon's Bite, whilst the haste almost linearly impacts Demon Blades in a similar way.

[wordup 37]

1 hour ago, leapingshadow said:

I have looked at the demon blades rotation again. However, whilst testing I found that during the Chaos Strike spam section, I am still finding myself capping at 100 power due to the banked fury I am getting.

Edit:

I'm not sure if this is due to my haste or whatever but, whenever I use throw glaive, i wait until I attack with my weapons then I use it so that I do not bank any fury. However I always seem to bank fury I don't really know whats going on.

It seems unusual you are getting to a full 100 cap in one to two swings, aggressive spending implies spending whenever you have it available and nothing more important to cast, since banked charges will be double proccing on each auto attack.

When it comes to Throw Glaive you should just throw it off on the GCD, the banked Fury can always be played around because you won't trigger an additional proc until your swing timer resets and you swing again to expend the extra charges (banked charges stack to 10), so you have time to react if you think you're in a high Fury situation and drain some more off.

[Guest Roarpower]

These stats seem a bit wrong, it seems better to go Crit / Mastery as Ves doesn't scale all that well since most damaging ability's for Havoc deal Chaos damage. If anything it should be Crit / Mastery / Haste.

[leapingshadow 50]

I don't really see the value in waiting for your fury to build up during the demon blades rotation and I don't really see the value in banking procs at all. Would it not be more beneficial if you just wait for both weapon swings, then induce a global cooldown by either throwing a glaive, or using chaos strike?

[Guest Ney]

Here is an intersting question, i was going to ask  too, so... hope you guys can help me

 

 So while it's obvious that a set of 6/6 Glaive of the Fallen will be stronger than double Fel-Etched Glaives, at what point does the 500 attack power bonus vs demons get negated by the other Glaives upgrades?

I know the Stat squish in the past changed things, and that we have enhanced stats to make up for not having our full talents like other classes (what is the bonus on our stats btw?), but I'm curious about this. Here is an interesting question for pre legion :

So while it's obvious that a set of 6/6 Glaive of the Fallen will be stronger than double Fel-Etched Glaives, at what point does the 500 attack power bonus vs demons get negated by the other Glaives upgrades?

I know the Stat squish in the past changed things, and that we have enhanced stats to make up for not having our full talents like other classes (what is the bonus on our stats btw?), but I'm curious about this.

[Drelona 0]

7 hours ago, Guest Roarpower said:

These stats seem a bit wrong, it seems better to go Crit / Mastery as Ves doesn't scale all that well since most damaging ability's for Havoc deal Chaos damage. If anything it should be Crit / Mastery / Haste.

If I'm wrong someone correct me, but Versatility stat does not care what damage type you are doing. It specifically states that it increases damage and healing done by a certain amount. I've never seen it discriminate based on damage type.

The value of Versatility in the stat weights is actually correct since our orbs heal us when we pick them up. This healing amount is affected by our Versatility rating too.

[wordup 37]

11 hours ago, Guest Roarpower said:

These stats seem a bit wrong, it seems better to go Crit / Mastery as Ves doesn't scale all that well since most damaging ability's for Havoc deal Chaos damage. If anything it should be Crit / Mastery / Haste.

It may seem better, but it simply isn't. Everything we know from in-game and sims for both pre-patch and a full Legion build points to Vers being superior. Vers point per % has more value than Mastery, especially given that Mastery doesn't scale all damage. This only extends further when Legion is concerned and there is even more non-Chaos damage in the build.

At 100, it's 110 Mastery per %, whilst Vers is 130 per %. Given that Vers impacts more damage than Mastery, the offset of investment vs. return is not enough to make Mastery keep up with Vers for raw increases precisely because it impacts your entire toolkit.

[wordup 37]

6 hours ago, leapingshadow said:

I don't really see the value in waiting for your fury to build up during the demon blades rotation and I don't really see the value in banking procs at all. Would it not be more beneficial if you just wait for both weapon swings, then induce a global cooldown by either throwing a glaive, or using chaos strike?

waiting to throw it after a swing is overcomplicating the rotation unnecessarily. It also delays the cast of Throw Glaive meaning you will overall get less casts due to that for absolutely no gain, given that banking procs is explicitly designed to stop having excess waste of procs if you induce a GCD at an inopportune time.

[wordup 37]

4 hours ago, Guest Ney said:

Here is an intersting question, i was going to ask  too, so... hope you guys can help me

 

 So while it's obvious that a set of 6/6 Glaive of the Fallen will be stronger than double Fel-Etched Glaives, at what point does the 500 attack power bonus vs demons get negated by the other Glaives upgrades?

I know the Stat squish in the past changed things, and that we have enhanced stats to make up for not having our full talents like other classes (what is the bonus on our stats btw?), but I'm curious about this. Here is an interesting question for pre legion :

So while it's obvious that a set of 6/6 Glaive of the Fallen will be stronger than double Fel-Etched Glaives, at what point does the 500 attack power bonus vs demons get negated by the other Glaives upgrades?

I know the Stat squish in the past changed things, and that we have enhanced stats to make up for not having our full talents like other classes (what is the bonus on our stats btw?), but I'm curious about this.

Weapon damage plays a huge part for Havoc, losing that 500 AP (which is only specifically active against Demons, which is a fairly significant disadvantage) isn't as big of a deal as just taking two of the stock Ilvl 700 Glaives from the Invasion.

[TeoStrife 1]

I got another thing that makes me wonder... 
Will this stat prio (Agi > Crit > Vers) will still be correct for all builds at level 110 ?
For example (using common sense) it would feel more beneficial to focus on Haste if someone picks the Demon Blades and Chaos Blades talent.

[Guest SamOnline]

I think for myself as of right now the two talent choices for ST/3+ are Fel Mastery (without a doubt) and Prepared.

I think Demon's Blade is under tuned as such you're gaining fury on an RNG-basis.

The extra Shadow damage is fine itself and the expected fury gains from a single 'successful' swing is predictable at best.

To counter this argument, Demon's Bite - a fury generator giving off enough fury as Demon Blades (taking into account GCD and a consistent 75% fury generation by Blades) but on top of that 260% weapon damage (which probably is more than the extra Shadow damage by Blades, though it's not specified). 

In addition, you'll rely on constantly chipping away at a boss/add and therefore need to stick to 4 yards of their hit-box at all times otherwise every passing second could be a waste of fury - using Rush eliminates auto-attacking for a brief moment.

If Vengeful Retreat is used in conjunction with Prepared practically on cooldown (20 seconds down from 30), in addition to using Fel Rush as much as possible in a given encounter with Bite, you will be looking at great fury gains for ST/3+ fights where you can capitalise on Chaos Strike (which has a pleasant refund policy)/Blade Dance and get off Eye Beams whenever you're 75=<x Fury (or when a handful of mobs are stacked).

It's also possible to gain some damage using Retreat and Throw Glaive almost in sync (since Throw is off the GCD) even if it means taking a jump back from a hit-box, by then you should have a Rush charge to get back into the thick of the action and at least pull off a minimum of 2 chaos strikes (if Crit is kind, some fury left over to help gain a third Chaos Strike after a Bite).

 

Anyways, I've no hard facts that whether this is 100% true or not nor do I have numerical values to support my thoughts (but I will investigate anyhow) but from experience I feel I've been performing better in raids using these 2 talents. Tell us what you think!

[Sven 2]

Question about the single target priority. So you list #2 as:

2. Cast Fel Rush with Fel Mastery taken at 70 or lower Fury, or if you are about to hit 2 charges.

I'm just a little confused by the second half where you say "or if you are about to hit 2 charges."  So if we don't have Fel Mastery talented (i.e. chaos cleave for cleave fights) should we still be using Fel Rush in our rotation to avoid capping 2 charges?

Edited August 15, 2016 by Sven
wording

[leapingshadow 50]

Is it normal to be capping fury very often when using demon blades? I start and generate until i get to 70 (seems like a weird number to me why not choose 80 considering the max you can generate on a swing is) then spend all the fury i can, leaving me with around 30, then i wait until i build up to 70 again yet the next attack i do just brings me right to max fury every time.

[wordup 37]

2 hours ago, leapingshadow said:

Is it normal to be capping fury very often when using demon blades? I start and generate until i get to 70 (seems like a weird number to me why not choose 80 considering the max you can generate on a swing is) then spend all the fury i can, leaving me with around 30, then i wait until i build up to 70 again yet the next attack i do just brings me right to max fury every time.

The absolute max you can generate on a swing is 40, not 20. The reason it's set to 70 like the others is, at 80 you do risk potential over-capping, at 60 you will drain yourself with at most two Chaos Strikes and have to wait potentially 2 swings before you can re-cast. 70 hits a middle-ground where you can dump and potentially re-cast quickest. 60 also is unlikely to over-cap you on Fury because by the point you re-reach 60, you should have emptied some banked charges and in a majority of cases won't be double proccing on the next 1-2 swings.

This was however written with the original 10-15 per proc in mind, so I can ammend it down to 60.

[wordup 37]

20 hours ago, Sven said:

Question about the single target priority. So you list #2 as:

2. Cast Fel Rush with Fel Mastery taken at 70 or lower Fury, or if you are about to hit 2 charges.

I'm just a little confused by the second half where you say "or if you are about to hit 2 charges."  So if we don't have Fel Mastery talented (i.e. chaos cleave for cleave fights) should we still be using Fel Rush in our rotation to avoid capping 2 charges?

It's intended specifically for when Fel Mastery is taken in those two circumstances, not without.

[leapingshadow 50]

Man, for a talent that makes the spec simpler I'm still having trouble. Following the new 60 fury till I still find myself capping fury, say I'm at like 35 fury and I generate maximum fury cause each hit can do 40 and both swinging at the same time is 80 and this isn't rare it happens often, I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong I'm trying to follow the rotation best I can but it doesn't always work

Edit:

Spelling

Edited August 17, 2016 by leapingshadow

[Lily 23]

The opening rotation I am doing at the moment is Fel Rush -> Vengeful Retreat -> Fel Rush -> As in guide. I skilled Prepared and Fel Mastery.

Maybe this opener wastes to much time of the agility pot, but it generates quickly the Fury you need for starting your Metamorphosis.

[Astrinaar 1]

For the multitarget rotation, I've personally found it beneficial to use Throw Glaive at 3 targets, as it does significantly more damage compared to chaos strike, even without a fury cost. It's damage is barely lower than Blade Dance, so considering that it does not cost anything, I really think it deserves a spot in the rotation somewhere, and not just when out of range. 

It might even be worth using above CS on 2 targets, but they're too close in damage that I can't tell for certain, with the resource being a factor too. 

While we're at it, you've used the wrong ability link in the guide. It links to  Vengeance's Throw Glaive, which deals considerably less damage :p

[Sven 2]

Hey Wordup, appreciate all the work you've put into this guide. When can we expect the full guide to be added (level 110 stuff)?

[Guest Frozenkex]

Since Throw Glaive is 490% damage, shouldn't it be used on 3 (or more) targets always and maybe even 2? 

[Guest TNK]

Demon's blades nerfed today from 15-20 to 12-20; something to consider as this may be enough to push the BiS talent to Prepared for the pre-patch, level 100 build. Still need to get home and test it though.