VonBek

Help Needed: PvE Combat Rogue new to raiding sucking at DPS

12 posts in this topic

As asked for, character info:

character http://eu.battle.net...Vonbek/advanced

Additional Info for Char sheet:

Shoulders :currently farming last few bosses not dropped so far this week in LFR and also Galleon / OON still to drop this week too. If no Shoulders dropped from any Shoulders will be replaced with Barrens Trade-In this week.

Accesories : still deciding whether to replace one of the rings with SPA Seal ( 522 ) ring or max for week ( will cap out around 1390 ) and then at some point next week get the Talisman Trinket again from SPA

Enchantments: returning character so no silly amounts of cash floating about, please do not suggest anything greater than Windsong for weapons, and no Endgame enchants for anything rating less than 522... my server is silly prices for things like Dancing steel etc. ( Two points... yes the boots are getting another enchant... i misread it and thought it was 120 XD... and yes i know i still have some missing enchants again due to recent drops / short LFR queues last night and day before plus work )

Belt Buckle: i'll get it when i drop a decent belt... server is currently about 700g for the buckle and with my luck i'd drop and upgrade next day

Gems : they have been rejigged slightly on advice on server, was told to drop secondaries on red for pure +agi gems, go Agi + haste or pure haste on yellow and on blue drop any stat ( sta usually ) for pure secondaries.. as stated earlier just back into raiding recently ( only returned to game 6 weeks ago ish) so still doing the BP quests so no Sha Touched gem yet or Capacitive ( which i'll be keeping for a 522 chest )

Profs: keeping LW since the leg / bracers is 2 good enchants, however Engineering is either due to be maxed or else swapped for enchanting. please factor this in to any advice.

Reforges : as suggested my yourselves in a few posts and also by some combat thread on EJ refoges now switched from AGI > HIT/EXP cap 7.5% ( softcap 2550 on both) > Haste > Crit > Mastery to Haste > Mastery > Crit ... however if anything my DPS seems to have got slightly worse since doing that and the moving to pure agi gems in red and agi + haste in yellow or pure haste

Poisons: Deadly plus Leeching... our servers LFR healers are bad enough most of the time without dumping the self-heal feed from LP. Switching poisons out of LP is not an option till i get myself a raiding guild XD

Combat Logs : none as yet, tried setting up a WOL account but every time i submit registration it's throwing me a 508 error ( server gateway timed out )

Rotation:

as suggested by various sites like here / noxxic / EJ

Trash... don't care, go with whatever is dropping them fastest.

usually either RS/EA (glyphed)/ SnD (2 or 3 points)/MFD/Rupture@5/Spam SS to refresh or eviscerate as situation demands on low numbers or as suggested FoK/CT@5 with Killing spree thrown in if will be back up for Boss on >5.

Obviously AdrRush and SB are popped unless Boss due to start soon.. First Trash and where possible are started with stealth / SStep / Ambush/RS/EA/SnD@4/MFD/Rupture@5

Bosses:

CoS / Feint (Glyphed when needed) for Mitigiation

Major Glyphs : AdrRush/Debilitate/Expose Armour usual, Debilitate dropped for Feint where required

Minor glyphs : Safe Fall, Decoy, Killing Spree ( handier than folk think for keeping out of Tanks road XD )

Preferred Start when some idiot tank doesn't pull without Warning:

Stealth > either Sprint or Shadowstep > Ambush - 2pts

RS > EA - 4pts

Pop SnD for first time

MFD > Rupture@5

Pop Killing Spree

moment KS stops pop Macro'd AdrRush ( dualcast of AR and SB)

Spam SS and eviscerate every time it's at 4 to save wasted CP ( tried it at 5 too, no real difference i could see)

Ongoing:

Spam SS

Refresh RS/SnD@5/Rupture@5/EA as needed

Pop KS when available (always before popping AR/SB)

Pop AR/SB when moment comes up unless KS comes up just before or just after (obv pop KS first)

Pop MFD when up for 5pt Eviscerate unless it comes off CD handy for Clipping SnD/Rupture for a full refresh

ShadStep when required to either catch runner or get back out tanks road if he swings the mob away from Cloth / Healers

=================

Now for the problem...

I don't know whether it's my gear, whether it's the fact Skada doesn't shutdown during downtimes ( it's LFR so lots of downtimes, folk wanting mass res, tactics getting explained, kicking the guy that thinks "it's fun" to run under garalon etc etc etc ), whether it's due to me starting in vanilla and playing in BC so understanding that sometimes chasing adds is actually required and sometimes you don't want to waste some CDs on them if you're gonna be back on the boss soon, having to chase bosses constantly cause some kid tanks then bricks it when he hits 50~% health rather than trust the healers or even just latency or reflexes issues...

but according to Skada i'm pulling 20 to 25k DPS at times with my best being 32k.. to the point of usually slotting in just above the healers in the table ( though never last above healers XD ).... but with an activity of 95 to 98% and usually mid table for actual damage ( at times i've had to drop from melee after aggroing the mob off tanks )

I know a log would help but as said having problems getting WOL setup but the old rule of thumb we used to have was

Bad DPS / Bad activity - slacker with low skills

Good DPS / bad activity - slacker with good skills and/or gear

Bad DPS / Good Activity - has potential, usually either bad rotation or gear... sometimes literally just a reforge or gem problem ( we had a guy show 99.2% activity but crap DPS... turns out he hadn't reforged and was at 3.7% hit and 13% exp with everything in mastery and hardly any crit or hate.. he was Fury DW )

Good DPS / Good Activity - recruit him if you can... skills plus gear A-OK

I'm hoping that i'm just doing something wrong with the gear and gems, or i'm maybe doing something wrong with talents ( hardly ever use Deadly Throw but seemed best of bad bunch, and lets not even go near tier with Dirty Tricks in it ) or rotation.

Thanks for taking the time to read the Wall of Doom... sorry Text, and thanks in advance to anyone able to offer any help.

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update: according to shadowcraft now i got used to using it again... should be doing optimal 57k as set just now.

http://shadowcraft.m...G90QGPTR2HBFw==

edit: just ran Vault of mysteries with decent group, skada states 42k DPS

decent enough for LFR vs Optimal or should i still be looking to get more out of setup?

Edited by VonBek

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Are you looking at overall data or current fight data. Overall data can put REALLY low numbers. Take a pure single target fight where you can spank the boss all the time with pure single target dps and check that damage with current fight. Never ever compare overall data :) (even though it's fun to top it too)

According to shadowcraft (which is always right. Goddamn I love it.) pure agi gems are slightly better than agi+haste gems in red slots, agi+hit is better on blue gems and agi+haste is the best on yellow slots. Pure haste gems are so little behind that it's purely up to you. (I'm pretty sure I would use haste if I would play combat.) Secondary stats don't matter so much to be considered this case reason for your dps.

Now to the biggest hint I can give you is to IGNORE RUPTURE.

Every guide in this world says that you should be using rupture, but.. it makes your rotation much much harder. You lose about 1% dps (1000~ dps maybe) for ignoring it but now you cant fail with it and you can purely use revealing strike when needed and then just spam eviscerate. I wouldn't personally use it at all. You are much much less fragile to mistakes and you can pretty much do much more dps when spamming just eviscerate. Hope this helps you :) Anything else to ask or anything, I'm up for it :)

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funnily enough couple of other threads i had looked at said same quoting rupture was only 1 to 2 % of damage in raiding and most folks reliance on it was from levelling solo where it was needed for more throughput, done some changes and hoping to run OON today ( only thing not dropped this week and capped on valour so no point to LFR just now ) so will give it a try.

Figures have been Per Fight, however there's been a couple of changes since first set of figures along with just much better groups ( you know the ones... food handed out if needed, more than one pally and know enough the if one pops BoM then one pops BoK etc, mages that buff everyone beforehand with arcane brilliance, monks that realise LotE and LoWT can both be up, hunter that pulls out the +5%crit buff pet if needed )

changes:

Chest now running +80 all

Cloak now has +170 crit

Boots have +140agi

new legs with proper gems and primal armour added

Reforge back to hit/exp cap

The 20k to 32k groups i was having to drop to let tank regain aggro / chase adds that ranged weren't handling / once or twice suicide to save healers after one of the tanks decided he was getting hurt ( funnily enough got Combat rezzed once for that on orders of the main tank when he realised that the second tank had not only chickened but had ran towards the healers ) / deal with adds on Emperors Will fight cause everyone had tunnelled onto the bosses etc etc etc..

Had runs last night after some gem and enchant changes with groups that understood things like ranged deal with adds if poss or not specified everyone moves to them cause melee don't always see them early enough, Tricks isn't bad ( we had one run where the rogues were Tricking each other by the second boss cause the tanks were that good at locking and holding ), buffs help etc..

figures:

Tortos - 42.7k #7 about .5k between me and #2... then monk at 82k XD

Megy - 43.1k #4 same spread, same bs with monk at over 70k

Ji-Kun - somehow spiked to 53.1k #4 ... can you guess who was top again?

world

Nalak 52.1k #6, decent spread with somebodies Wild Imp somehow placing first XD

Sha 87.2k #1.... however the fact that i ended up MC every time he could has probably got something to do with that Posted Image when i ran him again still a ( to me ) respectable 47k since as said my prior raid experience was vanilla / BC

thanks for the advice and hints on gems....

will try dropping Rupture and if it either improves or doesn't really hurt the DPS then it's getting relegated to pop when i remember, also swapped out deadly throw to CR and put Kidney Punch back on bars along with tier 2 DT swapped to Cr and in teir 5? the PvP talent swapped to Prey on the Weak since Kidney Shot is back in ( plus gives me another interupt along with kick Posted Image )... hopefully this will give me a smoother DPS figure

Edit: well that and i also remembered that i can vanish on CD without stopping fight... as said sometimes i'm making noob solo mistakes XD

Edited by VonBek

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Really drop the rupture away. Even if it is 1-2% or even more in combat logs of your damage or even more remember that it means you lose some of the damage in eviscerate, WHICH ISN'T A BIG LOSS. It should get you higher dps for giving easier rotation. Vanished ambush isn't a big dps gain but it is still some. Biggest thing is just to spam sinister strike and eviscerate.

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well... hat off to you DR....

Rupture dropped, gems changed to agi+hit in blue and tried it again with kidney shot back in and tier changed from the PvP biased one to Prey on the weak.

rotation much smoother, even when all Kidney Shot does is interrupt and with eviscerate being the only finisher ( apart from an opening rupture before popping KS ) such a difference... now hitting 55k+ last night before dropping a 516 mace ( not tried it since as was called into work ) and with the setup pre-mace shadowcraft was stating 61k with optimal buffs / 59k for sub-optimal raid buffs.

weirdest bit was the reason i'll be keeping KShot in is mate running Recount over Skada noticed that even when Kshot meant a wasted eviscerate the damage buff was still kicking in and granting DPS throughput not just for me but everyone.

peace to all and my thanks to you DR..... worries about majorly being sucky / screwed beyond belief now sorted... now all i need to do is get the nine-tailed gear set to 4 slots instead of 1 Posted Image

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A few more things to mention:

At your current gear level combat rogue is currently the worst dps class. You should expect to find yourself in the lower third at 491 ilevel. The combat rogue scales quite well with better gear, but in these patches (5.x) you should reach 520 before pulling some very serious numbers. I'm 508 at the moment and first now I find myself in top 5, not as good as in the good ol' cata days Posted Image

If it's epic your gear should always be optimized if you want to do top dps. No such thing as: I save my money for optimizations of a bit better gear.

Your gems are not the best, no belt bucket, you have a pvp back and most important: you don't have Dancing Steel enchant on your weapons. You should go and optimize all this even if you'll only have it for a few weeks if you are a raiding rogue.

The rest is about play style:

You must have very clear indications in your UI whenever a cooldown is available. I use Power Auras. If you see AR/SB then pop it! Even if it's on trash. I have seen posts suggesting you could hold it waiting for max Bandit's Guile, and yeah that's true, but in most combat situations you are probably better off just popping it immideately as you then will have it back sooner because of restless blades.

Also - with two heavy weapons - land a lot of Killing Spree's, the minute it's out of cool down, and if you have the glyph it's safe against bosses.

And then stick close to the tank because as we all know dps is also very much about uptime against bosses and trash.

Rupture or not, well it's not that important to maintain rupture uptime as a combat rogue. I use it if the boss keeps running around or it's a long non-chaotic fight. Else you're better off to keep it simple.

I use Blade Flurry whenever there are two or more mobs, regardless of the nerf in patch 5.1. Only very rarely I use Fan of Knives and it's finisher - maybe if there's 15-20 mobs and everything is one big colorful mess, then I pop AR and start spamming Fan of Knives. And no Kidney Shot against bosses or most raid mobs of course, they don't care.

Jastrau@QuelThalas

http://eu.battle.net...astrau/advanced

Edited by Jastrau

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To be plain and honest, you can expect lower dps in combat as compared to assassination, at least until you get your 4 piece. Even moreso if you're not the type of person who keeps track of anticipation stacks and your insight. It's an easy rotation to pick up, but if you don't focus or take it seriously, you will not be able to min/max and your dps will be punished.

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Combat has to stack haste more than ass and sub so they can keep blade fluury active. Very few boss fights where the cleave isn't a huge dps boost. but without good haste blade flurry hamstrings your energy regen.

 

That said, in 5.4 blade flurry has to be up to make killing spree do max damage on multiple targes. So hit and mastery cap and then blow all of your other reforge point on haste.

 

JMO, YMMV.

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I noticed you took marked for death personally as assassination I would take anticipation because it effectively just increases your combo points you keep on the target from 5 to 10 and thats huge for assassination as your mutilate generates 2 combo points so you can always get a 5 point envenom or rupture without ever wasting combo points. Also in your combat spec always, always run with glyph of adrenaline rush it is more or less required.

 

Combat also stacks haste as there is an ability, its passive, where the more finishers you use it reduces the cooldown of killing spree, shadow blades and adrenaline rush by 2 seconds per combo point finish its combo point generator, sinister strike i believe is 50 energy now. There is no way to regen energy as combat without the use of adrenaline rush from what I know so haste helps with this unlike assassination's venomous wounds gives a chance at recovering 10 energy when it deals damage for 30% or something I dont recall. 

 

And stated above haste helps with the energy regen reduction while blade flurry is up.

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