Alexdacrazy

Frost DK overall DPS issues on Helya

26 posts in this topic

Here's my logs:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/rXZVvLgb4Wm761dk#type=damage-done&source=3

If you look at the Damage Done for all players, you can see that I only did 16% for my ilvl? WTF DID I DO WRONG? Everything?! I would really appreciate any tips anyone can give. I was #2 DPS in our guild for this run, but I still SUCKED apparently. WTF. Again, I would really appreciate any suggestions on how to improve.

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Well despite you using Dragon what seemed off CD you only got 2 casts on a 10 min fight you could of had 3. You should be aiming to use it no the adds though if you're looking parse when a ton of of adds are out. Outside of that i would say that your still casting howling blast way to much, it's not worth casting even in aoe because you're still having pretty low up time on Frozen pulse which you had to be 2 runes or under to activate. Will provide more aoe and ST. Your last prolonged power got cut off by the boss dying before it ran out. You had some rime procs expire those are legit huge. Icytalon uptime was pretty lackluster lot of times where it fell off even on ST not just during add phase. Those are probably the main problems.

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Back when I used to competitively raid DPS, in order to parse well (or even be competitive in the raid group) you not only had to do your rotation perfectly, but you had to familiarize yourself with boss fights (timers, phases, adds) for damage AND hope the stars aligned perfectly ie, trinkets/procs/crits. On top of this, even your own raid's dps could hurt you. For example, an adds phase for a big aoe CD like SF could come and go before it comes off CD if you used it in your opener.

If this is the case, you need to start saving cooldowns. So yes, like Drtain said, if you wanted to parse you need your CDs and SF to be ready for the adds phases.

 

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OK guys. Well it was my first time on the Helya fight, so I definitely need to learn the fight.

@Drtain Thanks for being specific; it really helps me to know exactly what I did wrong, which, seems to be a lot this time.

Problem I had: I had to do a LOT of traveling, so I was casting Howling Blast on my way across the map so I could be doing at least some damage while moving. I don't have the artifact weapon talent that extends the range of Frost Strike yet.

Also, I didn't realize how much Rime increased the damage of Howling Blast. I've been so focused on prioritizing Frost Strike and Obliterate that sometimes I miss those Rime procs.

Questions

  • Here's maybe a big one for me... Casting Remorseless Winter is difficult. I know it's a GCD thing, but if I had just cast another spell, it takes freaking FOREVER to cast Remorseless Winter again. And I should be casting Remorseless Winter on CD, right?
  • @Sniz Both you and Drtain are saying I should be using Sindy on the adds? Like cast Sindy on pull then again on a bunch of adds later?
  • Also, Icy Talons stays up when I Frost Strike. So clearly, I should not just spam Frost Strike unless I am close to full RP. I need to space out the Frost Strikes to use them around every 5-6 seconds, right?
Edited by Alexdacrazy

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10 hours ago, Alexdacrazy said:

OK guys. Well it was my first time on the Helya fight, so I definitely need to learn the fight.

@Drtain Thanks for being specific; it really helps me to know exactly what I did wrong, which, seems to be a lot this time.

Problem I had: I had to do a LOT of traveling, so I was casting Howling Blast on my way across the map so I could be doing at least some damage while moving. I don't have the artifact weapon talent that extends the range of Frost Strike yet.

Also, I didn't realize how much Rime increased the damage of Howling Blast. I've been so focused on prioritizing Frost Strike and Obliterate that sometimes I miss those Rime procs.

Questions

  • Here's maybe a big one for me... Casting Remorseless Winter is difficult. I know it's a GCD thing, but if I had just cast another spell, it takes freaking FOREVER to cast Remorseless Winter again. And I should be casting Remorseless Winter on CD, right?
  • @Sniz Both you and Drtain are saying I should be using Sindy on the adds? Like cast Sindy on pull then again on a bunch of adds later?
  • Also, Icy Talons stays up when I Frost Strike. So clearly, I should not just spam Frost Strike unless I am close to full RP. I need to space out the Frost Strikes to use them around every 5-6 seconds, right?

-I like using RW. I won't say its the the most important thing to do ST, but it should be on your mind when your aoe'g a pack, for sure.

-It depends on the situation. If your guild is progressive raiding and your RL wants you to save CDs to push through a difficult raid wiping phase, then the "team player" thing to do would be to use it then. In all other circumstances, use SF for effect.  Ill put it to you this way.  A bad player who doesnt keep track of cooldowns might use SF only once during a fight but he might hit 4 targets with it. He'll beat a diligent player who uses it exactly on CD 3 times against a ST. Im not very familiar with helya cuz I don't raid, but there are multiple add phases right? The #1 most important thing for you to do is line your CD up for the add phase timer (which means you might have to sit on it for a while) AND throw the spell across the room hitting as many as you can.

-The most difficult for me to get used to switching to Frost dk dps this expac was learning patience. With my mage the rule for me was "ABC" ie always be casting. For FDK, your going to have moments where you're rune depleted, so the natural thing for me was to use up my RP. But RP is fickle. You only need it when you reaaally need it. So yeah, manage RP for Icy Talons or at least work on it.  You dont have to be perfect at first, but soon it will become second nature.

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Well for remorseless winter it's a single target increase. It also rounds out your rotation well in my opinion. For several reasons. Reason 1 you always charge 3 runes at a time, not 2 or 4. Second to keep your dot up you need to cast at least one howling blast every 24 reasons, with RW having a 20 second CD you could in theory RW>HB  which (in theory) make it so you only overlap 2-3 seconds of frost fever, and equalizes you runes again, I find often when i play frost I sit there with 1 rune and nothing to cast so RW fits here well. With this said it doesn't account for rime procs which would also refresh your dot.

 

Theres a couple time you can use Sindragosa, and it depends on how you want to do it. One you can cast it on the slims in phase 1 that spawn after the breathe, just shoot it straight back and you will hit 6 mobs (5 slimes and the boss because helya's hit box has a huge radius) all you gotta do is line your back up to slimes (after she breathes) 180 cast it and ur done. With this said it's much more optimal to make sure you have a pillar of frost while this happens to increase damage over all from it. I don't remember if it lines up well or not. Second is using it on the second phase where all the decaying minions come out and hit like 7000 targets, but this is just padding more than anything, with that said they do need to die so semi not padding.

Use FS anytime you have more than 50 RP and you have nothing else to cast. Don't cast FS under 50 RP unless you need to refresh icy talons or you have something else you could do such as cast obliterate, or RW. I refresh icytalons when it has under 3 seconds if you wait til the last second or two sometimes oh no boss moved, or it ran away or this that died etc and it falls off.

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@Drtain and @Sniz thanks very much for the info! Are there any good addons that will warn me about my buffs dropping off? Like, something to warn me when I'm going to lose Icy Talons?

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1 hour ago, Alexdacrazy said:

@Drtain and @Sniz thanks very much for the info! Are there any good addons that will warn me about my buffs dropping off? Like, something to warn me when I'm going to lose Icy Talons?

 

You're welcome man! Im not much of a raider anymore, but im still theorycrafting!

I use weakauras2 and bloodshieldtracker. Weak auras is hard to set up, but i suggest searching the forums or going on youtube cuz producers post their weakaura strings. People have told me they set up audio cues, which is interesting, but those are probably only useful for minor rotational cooldowns. The big ones require better timing.

pretty soon it will click and you'll be giving people like me advice!

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Weakauras are probably the best option as Sniz mentioned. But disagree on the set up it's pretty easy Just click new, icon (or what ever you prefer play around with it I prefer progress bars sometimes) New>Icon>Trigger>apply template> buff>Icy talon> (optional) display>text change the %p to %s, then you can mess around with text positions and stuff like that.

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*Especially* for this expansion, take combat logs with a grain of salt. There is a LOT of power variance due to legendaries, artifacts, and TF. Specifically for H Helya, to rank high on the combat logs, you need to have good legendaries, ideally the frost wrists, and use SF /w POF, US, and potentially PP during phase 2 on clumped up adds. Unless your raid has extremely poor cleave/coordination, this is typically not necessary, but this is how you get the big numbers. Without using a pot, and just using POF/US/frost wrists, this can account for 15-17% of my overall damage (I have HB helm, too, so my HB dmg on adds is also inflated). What *matters* on Helya is damage on the 'major' mechanics adds.

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@ArycHumDK While this is aprtially true this is only really true with high end parse you can achieve 70% or higher without legendaries or high ap, while helya has variables on top of that. Alex is still making some mistakes that could be corrected. (No offence, just saying I don't really agree to much with what he says.)

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@Drtain I have a bunch of wipe logs here where we attempted and failed on H Odyn (the old logs were from N Helya).

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DNQbrmJ9vyYAgqjw#type=damage-done&source=17

Looks like I casted Obliterate too much. WeakAuras did help me with keeping up my DoTs more often. Also, I didn't prioritze Remorseless Winter nearly as much. I had around 300k dmg during phase 1, but by phase 3, I was down to around 200k damage. Do you have any suggestions based on what you are seeing in my logs?

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To be honest you can't cast obliterate to much, unless you are over capping on runic, obliterate in a lot of casts should probably be your top damage or just under frost strike. Good note howling blast really good to see. (this is me going over the 7th pull btw) Icy talons could be improved 67% uptime it's not possible for 100% but mid 90s is achievable. Rime procs for the most part were pretty good, except 3 cases in which it looks like you had 3 expire or nearly expire. There was a lot of time where you were over 2 runes, meaning no frozen pulse mainly being a problem towards the end of the fight than the beginning. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DNQbrmJ9vyYAgqjw#type=resources&source=17&spell=105 (if you would like to see for your self). You had some time where your runic power was over capped too roughly 300 was wasted.

You're biggest things you really need to work on though is Icy talons, and not wasting resources/ using resources. I'm not sure if this is correct but I think you're problems are coming from you being to conservative, like just legit spam obliterate even if you hit 0 runes who cares, with that said pay attention to runic power frost is a spec that really should in most cases have gaps in the rotation from being resource starved, it looks like your having gaps in you rotation because you're choosing too. Maybe that isn't accurate but it's something I feel might be correct.

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On Heroic Helya, if you delay your PoF on the pull by just a couple of seconds, you can move over to the middle of the room and have PoF up for when you drop SF. Right after the breath is casted you can start moving over so that the moment they spawn you can dump it.

 

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@Beatingyew Yeah I already mentioned that, with that said you can do it if you just stand next to helya you don't need to move to the middle of the room just gotta shoot it backwards but still hits Helya.

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i didn't have time to read responses, but i'll share my logs with you and my advice for talents. ~430k dps at the end of the fight, heroic.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/AL34aqjhGJfRXwvH#fight=6&type=damage-done&source=85

Frostscythe (this is a "must have"), icy talons, frozen pulse, glacial advance (option, you can take obliteration if you like it). I use Sindragosa's fury twice, once after first breath when adds spawn, i go behind 3rd one and im trying to hit 3 bloobs + helya, then i use it second time in 2nd phase when last tentacle is still alive and you have a set of adds + mariner and huge one -> i try to hit big one with as many small adds as possible. 

Build itself is very high on mastery (+45%) and crit (~30%) so i priotize frostscythe over obliterate when  killing machine proc, even on single target (scythe does more damage than obliterate in cost of just one rune). Haste 21% for now and i'm pushing it to 25%. I use this build and gear for AoE / Cleave / Myth+ fights. Same build results on Dragons of Nightmare mythic: 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Kb7yPWM29Gtj4vrn/#fight=6&type=damage-done&source=12

For fights like Ursoc (pure single target) i have other gear, way less mastery, more haste + versatility, and im not using frostscythe / GA on that, just Obliteration + runic empowerment. 

Hope this will help you somehow. 

Edited by Muzgu

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Frost scythe shouldn't be used on helya, because it's nothing more an padding, you lose a lot of ST damage if you use Frost scythe. Being the adds are almost irrelevant you don't want to use an AOE talent for what primarily a ST fight. On top of this all top parses are not using frost scythe.

 

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On 1/3/2017 at 10:42 AM, Drtain said:

To be honest you can't cast obliterate to much, unless you are over capping on runic, obliterate in a lot of casts should probably be your top damage or just under frost strike. Good note howling blast really good to see. (this is me going over the 7th pull btw) Icy talons could be improved 67% uptime it's not possible for 100% but mid 90s is achievable. Rime procs for the most part were pretty good, except 3 cases in which it looks like you had 3 expire or nearly expire. There was a lot of time where you were over 2 runes, meaning no frozen pulse mainly being a problem towards the end of the fight than the beginning. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DNQbrmJ9vyYAgqjw#type=resources&source=17&spell=105 (if you would like to see for your self). You had some time where your runic power was over capped too roughly 300 was wasted.

You're biggest things you really need to work on though is Icy talons, and not wasting resources/ using resources. I'm not sure if this is correct but I think you're problems are coming from you being to conservative, like just legit spam obliterate even if you hit 0 runes who cares, with that said pay attention to runic power frost is a spec that really should in most cases have gaps in the rotation from being resource starved, it looks like your having gaps in you rotation because you're choosing too. Maybe that isn't accurate but it's something I feel might be correct.

@Drtain Tyvm this is very helpful. You're right I have been conservative. I'm glad to hear what you have to say here. I will spam Obliterate unless I'm going to waste RP, which will help a lot with Frozen Pulse like you said. And I'll keep working on Icy Talons uptime and not wasting Rime procs.

I have been conservative because I felt like I needed to be conservative. Thanks for telling me otherwise! You've given me real hope about improving my numbers! I'll come back to you after I try again! :)

Here's my profile and another question...

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormrage/Allériá/simple

Armory is wrong. My stats are 24% crit, 20% haste, and 34% mastery. Also, I have like 2% Versatility. Strangely, I've gotten almost no gear with versatility on it! Are these stats good or do I need to try to prioritize one over the other? Again, thanks for giving me hope for my DPS!

Edited by Alexdacrazy

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@Drtain You mind looking at my logs again? I'm still at 15%..... lol
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/npLz1Rt7XgTvbMaB/#type=damage-done

Looks like I had 74% uptime on Icy Talons. Not sure how to check if I missed any Rime procs though.

I feel like I have definitely improved. I feel confident about my rotation now, thanks to you. But somehow people are doing much better than me. And I'm new to this stuff, but I'm trying to learn to read the logs on my own. Thanks for showing me the ropes.

Edited by Alexdacrazy

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Icy talons could be improved I think for the opener you should, go Howling Blast for dot> Oblit>FS>Oblit>Obliteration>FS>Oblit into back and forth between the 2, this allows you to get icy talons up ASAP and helps keeps you lower on runes for Frozen pulse. You didn't FS until a little bit into the fight which delayed your Icy Talons. Rime procs much better, improvement for sure, could be slightly better but is much better none wasted. Another Tip I have could be save your second potion for lust, so you can make the most out of it. You could have been a little better on runes but for the most part pretty good, was improved since previous. Runic capped a decent amount could have been better around 30~ seconds over the entire fight. And then the last thing you need to try and find a new trinket, your trinket only did 1.4m damage and only offers haste not, strength so it's pretty lack luster, legit any strength trinket probably is better,

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@Drtain Wow OK thanks. Upping my haste really seemed to up my DPS, however, I got an 880 Strength trinket last night. I can use that instead.

Also I really like the idea of casting Howling Blast at the start. I've also been casting Sindy on pull right after Pillar of Frost. Is that a good idea or nah?

And I will try the opener you suggested. The problem is when I cast Obliteration, it seems like going between FS and Oblit is pretty slow. Like maybe I need more haste to help with the GCD or something?

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Sindy depends on the boss fight really but for ursoc on pull is correct, unless Mythic then wait til an add is up and you have your pillar of frost going.  Obliteration rotating back and forth between the 2 is pretty slow, just kind of how it is.  With that said you can fix some of that with haste.

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@Drtain I cannot thank you enough for all your help. I  have working to implement all the improvements you suggested.

I'm sure I'm still making some errors, but I'm thinking perhaps my artifact weapon is holding me back at this point. I will have it soon, but I still don't have my 3rd gold trait. Would you mind taking a look at the logs for my H Odyn kill this week?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/bWJRFG2HX1ADdhf3/#fight=2&type=damage-done&source=121

 

EDIT: Also, look at the highest parsing Frost DK on H Odyn. Howling Blast is highest damage? Damn.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BLkAM9m7NzVtxGgH#fight=17&type=damage-done&source=14

Edited by Alexdacrazy

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Your icytalons still needs work only 67% uptime. Rimes are pretty good most of them not really having delay. Still a good amount of time over 2 runes probably around 40 seconds. You had a lot of time runic capped, like probably nearly a minute and a half, you wasted around 350 RP so like 14 FS.

 

The top parse was 100% rng he has 34 rime procs in 4 minutes he only casted HB 37 times so 34 of them were empowered, compared to your 25 procs in 6 minutes. So he just got insanely lucky.

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@Drtain You have helped me a lot! I made a WeakAura for all the things you mentioned.

On Ursoc, I had 86% uptime on Icy Talons. I don't think I missed a Rime proc. And it looks like I stayed under 2 runes for most of the fight. So definite improvements. I'm still only around 30% parse, but definitely better. I'm going to try to focus on getting my final gold trait because I think that will have the biggest impact at this point.

Here are my logs (see Mythic Ursoc kill). Any other tips? Should I use different food besides Fishbrul Special? Should I use a different neck enchant besides Hidden Satyr?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ZFj8NQw2d3tVJRvX/#type=damage-done&comparesearchplayer=11&fight=12&source=13

Edited by Alexdacrazy

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