Starym

Infinity Artifact Trait Clarifications and Intentions

23 posts in this topic

1Mbtbh3.jpg

 

More AP system explanations, specifically surrounding the new 50-point trait.

The discussion around the AP system continues, as several top PvE players have expressed a dislike of the new "infinity" artifact trait, Concordance of the LegionfallConcordance of the Legionfall, as it's going make their AP grind a whoole lot longer (it's actually "only" 50 ranks, not infinity, although for most players it may as well be). However, the new final trait system is intended to alleviate AP concerns, as  we already saw Game Director Ion Hazzikostas address them, and we now get even more insight, this time focused specifically around the new trait.

In short, the intended fixes are the fact that it's a proc and not a permanent buff, that it's a primary stat boost and not a % one, that individual ranks are less impactful and the fact that the cost will increase exponentially (as you can imagine the top end raiders "loved" this one in particular).

Blizzard LogoLore (source)

Ion alluded to some of this in his post last week, but essentially the goal here is to address what we believe to be the core of the issue with the 7.0 final traits: the large gap in player power it created between players who spent a lot of time farming AP and those who spent their time on other endeavors. To that end, there's four key changes:

#1: The individual ranks are less impactful. This was honestly one of the biggest issues with the 7.0 design. Grinding out a couple million Artifact Power for a 0.5% raw damage increase was just too lucrative compared to other methods of endgame progression - even eclipsing gear for some players. The goal for the new 7.2 design is that the next rank is still an increase, and you won't turn it down, but it's not your primary focus.

#2: The rate at which the cost for the next rank increases is higher. In the 7.0 design, someone who farmed twice as much AP as you had roughly twice as many ranks as you. While rewarding the extra effort isn't a bad thing, it doesn't need to be nearly that rewarding. By making each rank's cost increase exponentially, we can help ensure that you're never too far behind even if you aren't spending as much time farming AP. It also means that, as Artifact Knowledge increases, it'll be easier for alts or newer players to catch up.

As a quick aside, to put some extra context on both of those changes: we always want Artifact Power to be of at least some value to you. It's fine to reach a point where you're not going out of your way to earn it, but it's purpose is to be a fairly reliable form of progression. If you spend an evening raiding, or run a few dungeons, or do some PvP, but don't get any gear upgrades, you should still be able to say "at least I earned some Artifact Power" with some level of satisfaction.

Anyway, key change #3: The new trait gives a primary stat bonus instead of a percentage-based increase. With the 7.0 design, as your gear improved, so did the total benefit you were getting from your final trait. Changing to a primary stat bonus means it's giving roughly the same benefit to someone at ilevel 900 as it does to someone at 850. Again, the goal here is to reduce the overall power gap.

And finally, #4: It's a proc. I know anything that involves RNG is often controversial, but this is, in my opinion, a great example of where it's extremely useful. This is for two reasons.

First, it kind of muddies the waters a bit. When you wipe on a boss at 1%, or just barely miss a kill window, it can be easy to say "if Todd was doing 2% more damage we'd have won." But when it's a proc, you can't actually be that sure. Maybe Todd needs more AP, or maybe he just got unlucky with procs. Maybe the wipe wasn't Todd's fault at all. Maybe you should be a little nicer to Todd.

Second (and more importantly), it allows for player skill to play more of a factor. If you're the sort of player who can pay attention to procs and adjust your rotation on the fly (say, a healer who chooses to use cheaper spells while it's active, or a damage-dealer who saves a charge of their hardest-hitting ability), you're going to get more value out of the new trait than someone who ignores it.

I've seen some initial feedback that indicates some specs are likely to benefit from these more than others - to some degree that's expected, but specific feedback on which specs those are and why is very helpful. We're still actively tuning and tweaking things, so please keep that feedback coming.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

First, it kind of muddies the waters a bit. When you wipe on a boss at 1%, or just barely miss a kill window, it can be easy to say "if Todd was doing 2% more damage we'd have won." But when it's a proc, you can't actually be that sure. Maybe Todd needs more AP, or maybe he just got unlucky with procs. Maybe the wipe wasn't Todd's fault at all. Maybe you should be a little nicer to Todd.

Terrible reasoning imo and doesn't actually mean anything. This is better because now it'll be harder to know exactly the cause of a wipe?

The last part of that paragraph is a complete non-argument. It doesn't address the problem at all. It just sounds like appeal to pity.

Quote

Second (and more importantly), it allows for player skill to play more of a factor. If you're the sort of player who can pay attention to procs and adjust your rotation on the fly (say, a healer who chooses to use cheaper spells while it's active, or a damage-dealer who saves a charge of their hardest-hitting ability), you're going to get more value out of the new trait than someone who ignores it.

That part though, much better. Flat % damage increase is lazy and everyone gets the benefit from it, but having a proc like this, just like the pre-legendary ring from WoD, you'll have people who just do whatever and use their strong CDs and ability procs while their artifact proc isnt up and end up doing a fair bit less damage than a player who doesn't bother with keeping track of it.

On the other hand, though, if the proc rate is too low, you may run into times where you keep your big hits waiting for that proc to come, and then it never comes, and never comes, until you'd have been better off using your big hits outside of the proc anyway. This already happens for certain classes. Though Lore made another reply on that thread saying they aimed for the proc rate to be consistent, but that will remain to see.

 

In general though I think the people saying they should get rid of last trait entirely have the better idea... Or another one I read in that thread about having only one point in that extra trait, and then you're done. No more grinding, it's easy to get 1 point in that trait after you max out your artifact, and everyone is on an even playing field. Would be great!

I don't really have a problem with changing from a flat 5% increase to a proc as long as the proc rate is consistent (like, at least 1-2 ppm on an internal cooldown or something so it reliably procs at the same time every time), but making it take waaaay more AP for every trait is stupid because then people will never finish it (hence people calling it Infinity heh...) Even though the power gap is "supposedly" smaller it doesn't really change that people will still feel like they need to get it... and let's be honest the difference between someone at 1 (or another comparatively low amount) and someone at 50 will still be significant so you can't just stop bothering with AP after getting your first point.

Edited by Ammako
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well his comments have reasons. moving from DMG % to Main stat is a nice thing, easier to understand for a crowd of those who do not know what % is. 
Proc trait in general it is fine, but but but, if we assume that proc model will be designed by those who made trinkets and Artifact Dragon proc talents things would be terrible. In the end I am afraid that we will end up with 30% of classes who have constant procs due to their mechanic (auto attacks, crits, etc) and others will have a big fat fish because artifact will almost never proc. (Like every time you use a specific spell, lay a HoT or something like that).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Ammako said:

Terrible reasoning imo and doesn't actually mean anything. This is better because now it'll be harder to know exactly the cause of a wipe?

The point is that Blizz is trying to help the 99.9% of raiders out there that think they're wiping because of a lack of gear rather than a lack of aptitude to understand the reality of the situation. I think it's a great idea.

 

Also, be nice to Todd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Ammako said:

and let's be honest the difference between someone at 1 (or another comparatively low amount) and someone at 50 will still be significant so you can't just stop bothering with AP after getting your first point.

You can stop, whenever you want. 

But for those who want the absolute most out of their character they can get, however ridiculously small that amount may be, the opportunity is there.  Like they said,

 

10 hours ago, Starym said:

but it's purpose is to be a fairly reliable form of progression.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, PatrickHenry said:

You can stop, whenever you want. 

But for those who want the absolute most out of their character they can get, however ridiculously small that amount may be, the opportunity is there.  Like they said,

Sure you "can". But then you gimp yourself and then what's the point anymore.

More casual players already don't really bother trying to get as much AP as possible for their extra trait, all this does it hurt higher-end raiders even more while casual players continue not caring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Plergoth said:

Goddammit Todd. 

This! Every raid leader knows that the first step is to find somebody to blame for wipes! DPS blame tanks for dying, tanks blame healers for lack of healing, healers blame DPS stretching the fight so long that they run oom.

What I am more worried about is how this change will play out in PvP (especially ranked). The impact of gear quality is reduced by templates, but artifacts aren't normalized and they stand out. Primary stat procs - even in small increments - might very well shift PvP out of balance, even more than a flat %.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blizzard no longer caters to higher end raiders. Higher end raiders take up less than 1% of the player population. They care about the 99%. They made it ideal for the 99%, and not as necessary for the 1%, who get screwed if they deem it necessary. Simple as that.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Sharknad0 said:

Blizzard no longer caters to higher end raiders. Higher end raiders take up less than 1% of the player population. They care about the 99%. They made it ideal for the 99%, and not as necessary for the 1%, who get screwed if they deem it necessary. Simple as that.

Oh, youre absolutely right (also I dont think they ever catered to them), but this is getting a little extreme, as guilds are quitting left and right, so they might consider fixing it. The real problem/depressing thought is that they had this sorted before Legion's release, Ion himself said that legendaries wouldnt work the first few weeks of Mythic raids and it's an easy addition to add in the final trait to that system (which is a system the HC guilds suggested over and over back in beta).

So it's less about catering to them and more about maybe not utterly murdering your high-end PVE scene.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Starym said:

Oh, youre absolutely right (also I dont think they ever catered to them), but this is getting a little extreme, as guilds are quitting left and right, so they might consider fixing it.

This exaggeration has been thrown around for a good long while now. Maybe the people you know are quitting but others are taking their place.

Also, to try and provide an endless form of entertainment without some progression involved would be pointless. Some form progression will always be the bane of those who feel forced to do everything and in their minds don't want to gimp themselves. Maybe those people could come to the conclusion that they're really only compelled to grind themselves into melancholy as a result of their own faulty conclusions. They're prisoners of their own minds as it were.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Prophet001 said:

This exaggeration has been thrown around for a good long while now. Maybe the people you know are quitting but others are taking their place.

Also, to try and provide an endless form of entertainment without some progression involved would be pointless. Some form progression will always be the bane of those who feel forced to do everything and in their minds don't want to gimp themselves. Maybe those people could come to the conclusion that they're really only compelled to grind themselves into melancholy as a result of their own faulty conclusions. They're prisoners of their own minds as it were.

In the case of the competitive guilds this isn't the case. They have to go as hard as they possibly can or others will. My personal complaint about the system isn't that it's a grind or long or whatever, it's that the solution to the HC raider problem (and it IS a problem, you can talk around it all you like but this extra layer of farm added to the usual gear split heroic raids etc is really too much for progression raiders) is so simple, was planned to be implemented AND it would act as a natural "soft nerf" over time for all guilds that do Mythic.

And no, it isn't "people I know" that are quitting, it's (so far) 3 top 10 guilds, with 2 of the top 3 having solid to serious roster issues because people can't/don't want to do the endless Maw grindfest anymore. Personally I like the AP system as I don't feel compelled to have to farm it, as I think most people don't, but that doesn't mean Blizz should ignore the simple solutions they themselves already wanted to use (but then decided not to without any explanation or reason given).

As for others taking their place, the higher the barrier of participation for top guilds is, the less talented/skilled the players in them become. Basically it turns into not the best of the best going for world firsts but the ones that can play 24/7 at ALL TIMES. It was already crazy before AP and legendaries, but it was relatively limited to the 2-3 weeks of progress every 5ish months. Now to be "good enough" to compete you have to play constantly and do Maw runs ad infinitum to even have one SPEC on par.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Starym said:

And no, it isn't "people I know" that are quitting, it's (so far) 3 top 10 guilds, with 2 of the top 3 having solid to serious roster issues because people can't/don't want to do the endless Maw grindfest anymore.

No offense but it is "people you know." Those guilds are constantly in flux as members come and go and join other guilds. Heck, even Method had a pseudo collapse and spawned an entire separate guild from its turmoil. This has been the state of things for a good while now. Perhaps you remember them different than they were. Check out the Internet Archive and look up the wow forums for a good taste of how things were.

As to the point of farming: How do you provide endless progression without providing progression?

Should they not? Should they just have a hard cap BiS and done? Do you think that would retain more people. I don't. Farming has always been in the game whether in the form of valor or random stat gear or whatever it was. It is a major mechanic that is used to keep us playing.

The challenge for hardcore raiders is to tell themselves that the other 0.2% DPS increase they might get isn't worth the 6 weeks it's going to take to get it. That is the conclusion that Blizz is trying to lead them to by making very clear efforts to remove any dramatic power disparities at end game without removing all of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Starym said:

So it's less about catering to them and more about maybe not utterly murdering your high-end PVE scene.

^ This

I really don't think making the last trait only 1 trait would count as "catering to the high-end PvE scene."

I mean, have artifacts stop at 34 traits, with no final extra trait (or only one rank of the extra trait that provides flat 5% damage increase, or that primary stat proc): none of the more casual players care, and the high-end PvE scene is thankful for it.

Have artifact continue past 34 with dozens of additional points to put into a trait with vastly increased AP requirement for every trait, the more casual players still don't care, and the high-end players suffer. For no reason.

Sure, call it "catering to the 1%" if you want (and I'm not directing this at you Starym, just anyone in general), but I don't think any of the solutions proposed would hurt more casual players in any way, so why would it be a bad thing?

I can totally understand the want to always have something to progress towards, so even for more casual players, removing Paragon trait or capping it at 1 point might not be ideal, but that idea of disabling Paragon trait's bonuses in PvE for the first few weeks of a new raid's release has no downsides, or at least I can't think of any. More casual players can continue gaining traits at their own pace, and high-end raiders aren't required to spend so much time grinding the same thing for hours like it was two full-time jobs at once in order to compete.

Win/win in my eyes, but they'll never do that.

11 minutes ago, Prophet001 said:

The challenge for hardcore raiders is to tell themselves that the other 0.2% DPS increase they might get isn't worth the 6 weeks it's going to take to get it. That is the conclusion that Blizz is trying to lead them to by making very clear efforts to remove any dramatic power disparities at end game without removing all of them.


And no matter how hard they try to do that, they will. Always. Fail.

The high-end raiding scene relies on that less-than-1% disparity to remain ahead of the others. They're more likely to quit bothering with staying competitive entirely before they do that.

Which I guess is fine? The game won't die and nobody will die if no one is ever competitive anymore, but what's the harm in letting them actually have fun and enjoy the competitive race?

Edited by Ammako

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Prophet001 Um I think you're arguing with the wrong guy here. What I'm saying is that they need to disable legendaries and the final AP trait for the first two/three weeks of mythic. That's all I'm saying. I like the AP system and think it's a good thing in general (but they really need to address the alt/offspec problem it creates).

Also I've been following/writing about the progress race for around 7 years now, so I'd say my qualifications for having a good feel for when things are different is pretty decent, and yes, I'll reiterate, Legion has seen more problems in top end raiding than any expansion before and it's because of legendaries/AP.

Also also, to your 0.2% point, Gul'dan has survived on 0.3% and under for several guilds, taking them either a number of extra tries or in some cases hours or even days to get him down. If you think that doesn't impact the race and a serious team can just say "fuck it, we don't need that small boost to dps etc" you really don't follow the very top end of the race much (which is fine, why would you, but then please don't come arguing about it without facts).

You seem to be under the impression I'm against the infinite trait itself or the AP system, which is not the case. Perhaps you're actually arguing with someone else and using me as a proxy? :D I've noticed this AP issue makes a lot of people get somewhat upset and that hurts a normal discourse, although I can't really pinpoint why. My guess is this is just another round of the casual vs hardcore discussion, except this time it's the hardcores "whining".

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Starym said:

@Prophet001 Um I think you're arguing with the wrong guy here. What I'm saying is that they need to disable legendaries and the final AP trait for the first two/three weeks of mythic. That's all I'm saying. I like the AP system and think it's a good thing in general (but they really need to address the alt/offspec problem it creates).

I was just responding to your points.

...responded to the:

3 hours ago, Starym said:

Oh, youre absolutely right (also I dont think they ever catered to them), but this is getting a little extreme, as guilds are quitting left and right, so they might consider fixing it.

...point and the:

1 hour ago, Starym said:

And no, it isn't "people I know" that are quitting, it's (so far) 3 top 10 guilds, with 2 of the top 3 having solid to serious roster issues because people can't/don't want to do the endless Maw grindfest anymore.

...point.

Anyway, to the point of disabling legendaries and the final trait until there's enough power gain from current tier gear to make them irrelevant might be a good solution. I don't know. Seems to me like only Blizzard knows how they've tuned the encounter. Surely you remember Mythic Archimonde and the outcry over having to grind the legendary ring to be relevant. The very same legendary ring that Method downed him without. I would say that gave evidence that the community's perspective is not always right. If it's not always right then maybe its wrong right now. Can you definitively say that gear is the stopping block of the guilds that haven't yet downed Mythic Gul'dan? How about the guilds that came in out of the top 5 on downing him? Was it only gear that caused that? Heck Method themselves would tell you that they lost due to execution issues.

Also, if you've decided to divide your argument into one that's simultaneously for AP and legendaries and against AP and legendaries (as a mythic raider delegate) then I guess I am responding to someone else through proxy. That someone is you though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could they beat Mythic without having maxed out their Paragon trait? Likely.

Could they have an even easier time doing it if they maxed it, compared to other guilds who weren't doing it? Absolutely.

That's the point you're missing here. That Method beat Mythic Archimonde back in WoD without the legendary ring is hardly relevant. Not to mention that little other guilds at the time had the ring either, considering the RNG involved with getting the 33 tomes.

Edited by Ammako

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyway,  my one and only point is that hardcore raiders do have things to complain about, that they are right in complaining about them from their perspective and that Blizzard has a very easy fix that would also improve the mythic raiding experience for non top 5 guilds as well. I added in my personal opinion as a casual, but that was beside the point (aka my personal opinion of MY experience with AP).

Also, as to your Archimonde point, you seemed to have completely ignored mine about the 0.3% and under wipes THIS raid progress. That obviously indicates that, yes, factually, even the small gains from the 50 point infinity talent WILL influence the race. Will it absolutely influence it every single time every single boss kill? No, but the mere potential for it to will drive the raiders to get as many points as they can and kill themselves in Maw. If there is an edge to get, whether it's gear or AP or legendaries, all top guilds that care about rankings will go out of their way to get it, right to the point when they get frustrated with the grind and quit (which has happened 3 times in this particular progress race).

Now, as to the fact that they shouldn't WANT to get that extra 0.2%, that's never going to happen so it's completely pointless to argue it, Blizzard have to address the situation they created for these top end raiders if they want a (serious) competition at the top (as you said, there will always be guilds filling out the spots of those that quit, but as you can see from Gul'dan, the difference between the very top and the rest is huge, so when From Scratch quits, it's no lover the "top 4" and then x days til kill, but top 3, then when Exorsus quits it'll be the "top 2" and then weeks til kill etc etc). Now, whetehr Blizzard want/care about a serious top end raiding scene is another discussion entirely (personally I think they don't, or at least not enough to in any, however minor way, affect the rest of the game.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 24-2-2017 at 8:41 AM, Starym said:

Anyway,  my one and only point is that hardcore raiders do have things to complain about, that they are right in complaining about them from their perspective and that Blizzard has a very easy fix that would also improve the mythic raiding experience for non top 5 guilds as well. I added in my personal opinion as a casual, but that was beside the point (aka my personal opinion of MY experience with AP).

Also, as to your Archimonde point, you seemed to have completely ignored mine about the 0.3% and under wipes THIS raid progress. That obviously indicates that, yes, factually, even the small gains from the 50 point infinity talent WILL influence the race. Will it absolutely influence it every single time every single boss kill? No, but the mere potential for it to will drive the raiders to get as many points as they can and kill themselves in Maw. If there is an edge to get, whether it's gear or AP or legendaries, all top guilds that care about rankings will go out of their way to get it, right to the point when they get frustrated with the grind and quit (which has happened 3 times in this particular progress race).

Now, as to the fact that they shouldn't WANT to get that extra 0.2%, that's never going to happen so it's completely pointless to argue it, Blizzard have to address the situation they created for these top end raiders if they want a (serious) competition at the top (as you said, there will always be guilds filling out the spots of those that quit, but as you can see from Gul'dan, the difference between the very top and the rest is huge, so when From Scratch quits, it's no lover the "top 4" and then x days til kill, but top 3, then when Exorsus quits it'll be the "top 2" and then weeks til kill etc etc). Now, whetehr Blizzard want/care about a serious top end raiding scene is another discussion entirely (personally I think they don't, or at least not enough to in any, however minor way, affect the rest of the game.

Hardcore raiders always have something to complain about. They've always HAD something to complain about. And they always will. Because the world doesn't revolve around them, and it never will. Because hardcore raiding, in all honesty, is some of the saddest time investments within the relatively 'useless' time investment that WoW itself is and always has been.

It takes a while to realize the pointlessness of it all, for some it takes over a decade to get there. But they get there eventually. It's that simple. There's no reward, there's a huge time sink, and all of it is fleeting success as the 'firsts' are forgotten every time a new expansion comes out. Every expac, all progress is essentially wiped, and this has been going for 10 years. So here we are, halfway into Legion expac, discussing pro's and cons of an infinitely scalable talent? Does anyone realize how POINTLESS that discussion really is? The next item tiers will render all of this discussion worthless. We may be discussing an issue that will be gone within 1 year, or maybe a year and a half.

There's a good reason its only 'the 1%' doing top end content right now. The other 99% actually has a life.

No single game mechanic should cater to the 1%. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is an enjoyable game, and a relative power from player to player that allows every player to enjoy the game. The 1% actively tries to evade and surpass that principle, and then concludes 'the game doesn't cater to them'. No shit? Someone in this topic earlier pointed out how people are 'prisoners of their own mind'. This applies mostly to that 1%. And it applies to everyone who has the illusion of being a part of that 1%, or wants to be one.

Ultimately what Blizzard is doing with the legendary system, both weapon and spec drops, is creating a time sink and sense of progression in a game that has been played a few dozen times over already. There's only so much creativity you can expect here, and I think the current setup is a pretty good one. An infinite trait won't change that reality in any way, and whether you get 1 point in it or 50 really is quite irrelevant to the content you'll be doing. It's a trait that exists for its psychological effect, it exists to make you *feel* like you accomplished something, when in fact you're just playing the same game as you always have.

Let's not kid ourselves otherwise.

Edited by Vayra
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Hardcore raiders always have something to complain about. They've always HAD something to complain about. And they always will. Because the world doesn't revolve around them, and it never will. Because hardcore raiding, in all honesty, is some of the saddest time investments within the relatively 'useless' time investment that WoW itself is and always has been.

I Disagree with this statement. Going back a few expansions and you get less and less grind based competitive methods. If we have a quick look back at wrath for a moment the only advantages you could get over other plays with prep was Pots, food, enchants, Professions and class diversity. With the AP system your ranking is also a factor and one that determined players will grind out. I believe raiders will take any opportunity to boost there performance.  You say its a psychological trick to inspire. But its more likely to have the reverse effect. people getting exhausted and burnt out trying to cap.  The only real way to balance this out is to either lower the cap. Because once a hardcore raider hits that end point. There is that sense of finally... From a high tier perspective it frees up time for research or just generally doing more things. Aiming for that higher loot. From a mid teir perspective. It means your good to raid most content and can focus on either farming your off spec or start on an alt.

I personally believe the updated 50 point is designed to punish hardcore players pushing themselves to be the top and be the best and most ready before going into a raid. while a lower cap would benefit them by removing a lot of painful grinding and stress it would benefit more casual raiders as well. But that's just my thoughts on the matter.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/23/2017 at 9:00 AM, Ammako said:

all this does it hurt higher-end raiders even more

How?  They get continual progression until they hit the extremely high cap.

It's not much, but they also don't want it to be super overpowering to have a high AP level alone.  They stated as much already.

It's progression.  Guaranteed progression, albeit incrementally smaller each time.  It promotes Alt-ing, it promotes off-spec'ing.  Variety. 

Look back a few expansions ago.  If you didn't get any upgrades that week, how much progression did you make?  0.  none. 

Even if you get zero this week, you can still do some AP farming and get SOMETHING.  Warforging/socketing helped.  Titanforging adds another layer of possibility.  AP gains that continually offer SOMETHING while still needing more and more to get, are just another step.  I honestly cannot see how this 'hurts' high end raiders, unless they max it out, considering in previous expansions if you got the 25m version of your trinket you had NOTHING to upgrade and no hope of an 'uproll.'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Stan

      A new Alpha Build went live yesterday and we have a bunch of Monk changes. Windwalkers gained some Brewmaster talents, there's a new single-target Vivify for both specializations, and Soothing Mist can no longer be cast while moving.
      We also updated our Battle for Azeroth Class Changes to correspond with all changes listed below. We looked at two new Allied Races, racial nerfs and new Azerite traits earlier today!
      Druid
      Balance
      Astral Communion (level 90 talent) removed. New Moon is a new level 90 talent. Level Talent 1 Talent 2 Talent 3 15 Starlord Warrior of Elune Force of Nature 30 Tiger Dash Renewal Wild Charge 45 Feral Affinity Guardian Affinity Restoration Affinity 60 Mighty Bash Mass Entanglement Typhoon 75 Soul of the Forest Stellar Flare Incarnation: Chosen of Elune 90 Shooting Stars Blessing of the Ancients New Moon *new* 100 Nature's Balance Stellar Drift Fury of Elune Feral
      Elune's Guidance (level 100 talent) removed. Feral Frenzy is a new level 100 talent. Level Talent 1 Talent 2 Talent 3 15 Blood Scent Predator Lunar Inspiration 30 Tiger Dash Renewal Wild Charge 45 Balance Affinity Guardian Affinity Restoration Affinity 60 Mighty Bash Mass Entanglement Typhoon 75 Soul of the Forest Jagged Wounds Incarnation: King of the Jungle 90 Sabertooth Brutal Slash Savage Roar 100 Moment of Clarity Bloodtalons Feral Frenzy *new* Restoration
      Moment of Clarity (level 100 talent) removed. Photosynthesis is a new level 100 talent. Level Talent 1 Talent 2 Talent 3 15 Abundance Prosperity Cenarion Ward 30 Tiger Dash Renewal Wild Charge 45 Balance Affinity Feral Affinity Guardian Affinity 60 Mighty Bash Mass Entanglement Typhoon 75 Soul of the Forest Cultivation Incarnation: Tree of Life 90 Inner Peace Stonebark Spring Blossoms 100 Photosynthesis *new* Germination Flourish Hunter
      Marksmanship
      Serrated Shots (level 15 talent) removed. Serpent Sting is a new level 15 talent. Level Talent 1 Talent 2 Talent 3 15 Master Marksman Serpent Sting *new* A Murder of Crows 30 Careful Aim *new* Volley *new* Explosive Shot 45 Trailblazer Natural Mending *new* Camouflage 60 Steady Focus Streamline *new* Hunter's Mark *new* 75 Born To Be Wild *new* Posthaste Binding Shot 90 Lethal Shots *new* Barrage Double Tap *new* 100 Calling the Shots *new* Lock and Load Piercing Shot Monk
      Brewmaster
      Brewmasters now have access to Vivify (Single-target heal). Tiger's Lust is now a level 75 talent (down from 30). Mystic Vitality is now a level 30 talent (up from 75). Level Talent 1 Talent 2 Talent 3 15 Eye of the Tiger Chi Wave Chi Burst 30 Celerity Mystic Vitality Chi Torpedo 45 Light Brewing Gift of the Mists Black Ox Brew 60 Tiger Tail Sweep *new* Summon Black Ox Statue Ring of Peace 75 Healing Elixir Tiger's Lust Dampen Harm 90 Special Delivery Rushing Jade Wind Invoke Niuzao, the Black Ox 100 High Tolerance Elusive Dance Blackout Combo Mistweaver
      You must now remain stationary while channeling Soothing Mist. Moving interrupts the channel. Zen Pulse (level 15 talent) removed. Mist Wrap is now a level 15 talent (up from 45). Mana Tea is now a level 45 talent (up from 100). Diffuse Magic is now a level 30 talent (up from 75). Tiger's Lust is now a level 75 talent (down from 30). Essence Well is a new level 100 talent. Rising Thunder (level 100 talent) removed. Rising Mist is a new level 100 talent. Level Talent 1 Talent 2 Talent 3 15 Mist Wrap Chi Wave Chi Burst 30 Celerity Diffuse Magic Chi Torpedo 45 Lifecycles Spirit of the Crane Mana Tea 60 Tiger Tail Sweep *new* Song of Chi-Ji Ring of Peace 75 Healing Elixir Tiger's Lust Dampen Harm 90 Summon Jade Serpent Statue Refreshing Jade Wind Invoke Chi-Ji, the Red Crane 100 Essence Well *new* Focused Thunder Rising Mist *new* Windwalker
      Windwalkers now have access to Vivify (Single- target heal). Healing Elixir (level 30 talent) removed. Diffuse Magic is now a level 30 talent (up from 75). Chi Torpedo is now a level 30 talent (up from 75). Power Strikes is now a level 100 talent (down from 75). Fist of the White Tiger is now a level 45 talent (up from 60). Tiger's Lust is now a level 75 talent (down from 30). Tornado Kicks (level 60 talent) removed. Tiger Tail Sweep is a new level 60 talent. Combo Breaker (level 60 talent) removed. Summon Black Ox Statue is a new level 60 talent. Ring of Peace is no longer baseline, but available as a talent at level 60. Dampen Harm is a new level 75 talent. Wind Strikes (level 100 talent) removed. Level Talent 1 Talent 2 Talent 3 15 Eye of the Tiger Chi Wave Chi Burst 30 Celerity Diffuse Magic Chi Torpedo 45 Ascension Fist of the White Tiger *new* Energizing Elixir 60 Tiger Tail Sweep *new* Summon Black Ox Statue *new* Ring of Peace *new*
      75 Inner Strength *new* Tiger's Lust Dampen Harm *new* 90 Hit Combo Rushing Jade Wind *new* Invoke Xuen, the White Tiger 100 Power Strikes Whirling Dragon Punch Serenity Priest
      Shadow
      Power Infusion (level 90 talent) removed and has no replacement now > Coming Soon! Level Talent 1 Talent 2 Talent 3 15 Fortress of the Mind Shadowy Insight Shadow Word: Void 30 Mania Body and Soul San'layn 45 Twist of Fate Misery Dark Void *new* 60 Last Word *new* Mind Bomb Psychic Horror 75 Auspicious Spirits Shadow Word: Death Shadow Crash 90 Lingering Insanity Mindbender Coming Soon! 100 Legacy of the Void Void Torrent *new* Surrender to Madness Rogue
      Assassination
      Dispatch (level 15 talent) has been renamed to Blindside. Level Talent 1 Talent 2 Talent 3 15 Master Poisoner Elaborate Planning Blindside 30 Nightstalker Subterfuge Master Assassin *new* 45 Vigor Deeper Stratagem Marked for Death 60 Leeching Poison Elusiveness Cheat Death 75 Internal Bleeding Iron Wire Prey on the Weak 90 Venom Rush Toxic Blade Exsanguinate 100 Poison Bomb *new* Hidden Blades *new* Crimson Tempest Previous Talent Changes
      We're covering talent changes every Battle for Azeroth Alpha Build. Here's a history of our previews so far:
      Alpha Build 26433 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26367 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26310 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26287 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26231 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26175 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26131 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26095 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26032 Talent Changes Alpha Build 25976 Talent Changes
    • By Stan

      This week's Alpha Build 26476 added new class-specific Azerite traits to the game. Check them out!
      Our preview of this week's Alpha Build includes Dark Iron Dwarves & Mag'har Orcs and racial nerfs so far.
      New Azerite Traits
      Below is a list of class-specific Azerite traits that have been added to the game in this week's Alpha Build 26476.
      Death Knight
      Festermight - Bursting a Festering Wound grants you 205 Strength for 20 sec, stacking. Stacking this effect does not extend its duration. Spellreaper - When you successfully dispel an effect with Reap Magic, gain 1,647 Absorb for 20 sec. Demon Hunter
      Soulmonger - Consuming a Soul Fragment shields you, granting 700 Absorb for 3 sec. Druid
      Awakening - When you resurrect an ally with Rebirth, they Absorb 6,618 damage over 15 sec Shredding Fury - After your Tiger's Fury, your next four Shreds are increased by 93. Solitary Rejuvenation - If Rejuvenation is your only Heal over Time effect on the target, increase the healing of Rejuvenation by 187. Sunblaze - Solar Wrath increases the damage of your next Starsurge by 156. Hunter
      Dance of Death - Dire Frenzy has a chance equal to your critical strike chance to grant you 346 Agility for its duration. Shellshock - Each second Aspect of the Turtle is active, heal for 494. Unerring Vision - While Trueshot is active you gain 346 Critical Strike rating every sec, stacking up to 10 times. Venomous Fangs - Your pet's Basic Attack deals 78 additional damage to enemies suffering from your Serpent Sting. Mage
      Arcane Pressure - Arcane Barrage deals an additional 700 damage per Arcane Charge against targets below 20% health. Blaster Master - Fire Blast increases your Mastery by 0 for 3 sec. Eldritch Warding - Your Ice Barrier, Blazing Barrier, and Prismatic Barrier absorb 588 additional damage. Monk
      Strength of Spirit - While Fortifying Brew is active, heal for 370 every second. Paladin
      Stalwart Protector - When you cast Divine Shield, grant 734 absorb for 15 sec to nearby allies. Priest
      Sanctum - When you cast Fade, absorb 2,000 Magic damage for 10 sec. Rogue
      Footpad - Allies within 8 yds while your Sprint is active gain 311 Speed. Shaman
      Serene Spirit - When you cast Astral Shift and when Astral Shift ends, heal for 1,748. Warlock
      Lifeblood - When you use a Healthstone, gain 355 Leech for 20 sec. (May as well be a generic trait available to all Classes). Warrior
      Breach - When you damage an enemy with Heroic Leap, gain 235 Leech for 20 sec. Full List of Azerite Traits
      Below is a list of all Azerite traits that have been added to the game so far. The most recent traits have the *NEW* tag.
    • By Stan

      We have a list of all Azerite traits that have been added to the game so far.
      We've datamined 198 Azerite traits so far and the list has been updated for Alpha Build 26433. Some Azerite traits are placeholders and values may be slightly off.
      Class-Specific Azerite Traits
      Death Knight
      Dark Grudge Glacial Contagion Decimate Scourge the Unbeliever Deep Cuts Icy Citadel Festering Doom Bone Spike Graveyard Latent Chill Horrid Expulsion Marrowblood Demon Hunter
      Seething Chaos Gaping Maw Devour Revel in Pain Furious Gaze Infernal Armor Druid
      Twisted Claw Long Night Rejuvenating Breath Bloodline Primordial Rage Heartblood Fungal Essence Streaking Stars Raking Ferocity Masterful Instincts Coordinated Restoration Power of the Moon Hunter
      Aspect of the Cheetah Arrowstorm Ride the Lightning Vigorous Wings Rotting Jaws In The Rhythm Whirling Rebound Seize the Initiative Raking Talons Flashing Fangs Serrated Jaws Wildfire Cluster Haze of Rage Arcane Flurry Latent Poison Mage
      Blast Radius Ignition Point Packed Ice Arcane Pummeling Arcane Annihilation Flames of Alacrity Packed Ice Brain Storm Preheat Winter's Reach Monk
      Swift Roundhouse Fit to Burst Invigorating Brew Boiling Brew Iron Fists Sunrise Technique Overflowing Mists Staggering Strikes Paladin
      Zealotry Divine Illumination Righteous Bastion Avenger's Might Bulwark of Light Martyr's Breath Inspiring Beacon Rejuvenating Grace Fortifying Auras Critical Flash King's Shield Righteous Flames Healing Hammer Strong Light Searing Blades Healthy Judgment Deferred Sentence Furious Wrath Expurgation Warmth of the Light Dauntless Divinity Priest
      Bindings of Fate Torment of Torments Pillar of Light Moment of Repose Permeating Glow Searing Dialogue Weal and Woe Blessed Sanctuary Thought Harvester Rogue
      Contaminant Subtle Blade Swashbuckler Sharpened Blades Deadshot Double Dose Night's Vengeance Storm of Steel Twist the Knife Shaman
      Astral Shift Storm's Eye Lightningburn Ancestral Reach Flames of the Forefathers Electropotence Embrace of the Tides Healing Way Overloaded Striker's Grace Volcanic Lightning Primal Primer Soothing Waters Lava Shock Strength of Earth Ebb and Flow Warlock
      Suffer Unshackled Fel Meteoric Flare Wracking Brilliance Shadow's Bite Heavy Rain Erratic Omen Inevitable Demise Umbral Blaze Warrior
      Bloodcraze Heavy-Handed Battering Ram Deafening Crash Trample the Weak Executioner's Precision Gathering Storm Bloodcraze Sword and Board Generic Azerite Traits
      Increase Versatility 15 Haste Increased Intellect 46 Strength Agility 20 Item - Proc Mastery Netherlight Fortification Test Spell - Anders Test Power 6 Azerite Empowered Longstrider Resounding Protection Blood Siphon Woundbinder Lifespeed Elemental Whirl Heed My Call Fury of the Sands Overwhelming Power Gutripper On My Way Mote in the Eye Embrace of the Sands Portal: Dalaran - Broken Isles Savior Winds of War Vampiric Speed Test Azerite Power Champion of Azeroth Impassive Visage Bulwark of the Masses Gemhide Azerite Fortification Self Reliance Azerite Veins Uncertainty Uncertainty Uncertainty Uncertainty Crystalline Carapace Ablative Shielding Strength in Numbers Upwelling Synergistic Growth Concentrated Mending Bracing Chill Ephemeral Recovery Weeping Aura Ruinous Bolt Rezan's Fury Rezan's Command Meticulous Scheming Blightborne Infusion Filthy Transfusion Secrets of the Deep Sandstorm
    • By Stan

      Players that haven't played the game for a while can now claim 7 days of free game time until April 30, 2018.
      Open the Blizzard Battle.net desktop app. Click the glowing Gift Button located next to your BattleTag in the upper right. Click Claim. A notification will pop-up whenever you have new Gifts to claim. We're not exactly sure how long must your account be inactive in order to receive the gift, but we'll update this thread when we find out! The game time can only be redeemed until April 30, 2018.
      If you decide to activate your account now, make sure to check out what's going on this week in WoW!

    • By Stan

      Our preview of Dark Iron Dwarves & Mag'har Orcs includes customization options, racials, mounts, and more!
      Today, we're looking at Dark Iron Dwarves and Mag'har Orcs that are now available for playtesting on Battle for Azeroth Alpha.
      Welcome to our preview of Dark Iron Dwarves and Mag'har Orcs. Both Allied Races are now available for playtesting on Battle for Azeroth Alpha, so we recorded videos of their customization options and included other useful information in this article.
      Dark Iron Dwarves
      Achievement: Allied Races: Dark Iron Dwarf
      Heritage Armor

      Playable Classes: Hunter, Mage, Monk, Paladin, Priest, Rogue, Shaman, Warlock, Warrior
      Racial Abilities
      Name Effect Dungeon Delver While indoors, move 4% faster. Fireblood Removes all poison, disease, curse, magic, and bleed effects and increases your primary stat by 231 and an additional 77 for each effect removed. Lasts 8 sec. (2 min cooldown) Forged in Flames Reduces damage taken from Physical attacks by 1%. Mass Production Increases Blacksmithing skill by 5 and Blacksmithing speed by 25%. Mole Machine While outdoors, summon a Mole Machine that tunnels through the earth.[NYI] (3 sec cast, 30 min cooldown) Racial Mount: Dark Iron Core Hound

      Shaman Totems

      Customization Options
      Mag'har Orcs
      Achievement: Allied Races: Mag'har Orc
      Heritage Armor

      Playable Classes: Hunter, Mage, Monk, Priest, Rogue, Shaman, Warrior
      Racial Abilities
      Name Effect Ancestral Call Invoke the spirits of your ancestors, granting you their power. (Instant, 2 min cooldown) -> Might of the Blackrock - Increases secondary stat by 102 for 15 sec.  Open Skies Increases mounted speed by 10%. Savage Blood Reduces the duration of Poisons, Diseases, and Curses by 10%. Sympathetic Vigor Increases pet health by 10%. Racial Mount: Mag'har Direwolf

      Shaman Totems

      Customization Options