Prophet001

Alternative to BoS

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Hi All. I was wondering if there was any alternative to BoS? I like Frost DKs but that talent sucks imo. What is the next best thing? What kind of DPS loss is there from breath to the next closest build?

 

Thanks for any help/direction you can give.

 

:)

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** all figures quoted are based on my particular gear/trinket/stat setup, so best to set your own baseline and work from that **

I run a hybrid build for M+ and raid with it but not  to a high level as my guild is fun rather than progression based. (armory in sig)

It is fairly solid provided you have the correct stats and gear to match but burst is highly RNG (Rime) dependant... I can do 50mil damage at 1.3 - 1.4 mil dps but it drops off to 650 - 800 after that depending on the length of the fight. (ST)

I find BoS is more reliable burst, it's generally steady for it's duration at 1.2 mil dps but it drops off much harder between CD windows.

The average for me over both is pretty similar so I tend to stick with what I can execute more effectively in the given situation. (Krosus for example will be 200k dps higher with BoS than any other build. AoE is a different bag though... Spellblade can be crazy if you have generally poor AoE from the rest of your group and the adds stay up a long time for you to cleave.

It's worth doing long duration dummy tests, not only to analyse the flow of your dps but also to see how you deal with being resource starved and how you manage it if it happens. (again lots of RNG)

If you don't use it, I highly recommend the 'time attack' function from 'Details!'. It gives you a far more accurate result for a time period than if you just stopwatch a run on the dummy. I run 3 minute sessions and compare with historical results.

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18 hours ago, Prophet001 said:

Hi All. I was wondering if there was any alternative to BoS? I like Frost DKs but that talent sucks imo. What is the next best thing? What kind of DPS loss is there from breath to the next closest build?

 

Thanks for any help/direction you can give.

 

:)

Browed above me is running a really customized thing. It's certainly interesting, imma fart around with it myself.

That being said the other more mainstream alternative to BOS is a different rotation setup that has been called so many things, but I will submit to the discord guide denotation and refer to it as the machine gun build. It has been removed from the formal icy veins guide because properly used BOS roflstomps all machine gun variants in both mythic plus and raid. Now this is at high end gear lvls max lvl progression play, so for general play you can do fine with machinegun. It does less dps than BOS, even subpar BOS should yield more DPS than machinegun but if you are having fun and not in a progression guild, then who cares its your game to play.

Talents:

56: Icy talons

57: Frozen pulse (can be switched up but we are doing basic education here)

58: Ice cap or avalanche, default to avalanche, its easier and requires less stat stuff

60 - doesn't matter

75- doesn't matter

90- runic attenuation

100- obliteration pure single target, glacial advance for any cleave.

So the idea here and the reason the name machinegun was brought back (Although technically incorrectly but group think often wins out) is to denote the rotation, specifically the speed. You are going to be pushing a lot of buttons. The basic rotation here is to keep your frost fever up with howling blast, to keep icy talons at 3 stacks by casting frost strike, burning runes with obliterate to proc frozen pulse, and casting remorseless winter if you have nothing else to do and have a spare rune.

Basically Frozen pulse does damage when you have 2 or fewer full runes. So we want to have as many runes recharging/spent as possible at all times, hence obliterate spamming. However, icy talons increases your attack speed which influences frozen pulse. So, we want icy talons at 3 stacks as often as possible. This is to maximize frozen pulse. So, you move between burning runes with obliterate and refreshing stacks of icy talons with frost strike and dumping runic power. Howling blast with rime or if diseases area bout to fall off to keep diseases up, and then remorseless winter is just cast to burn a rune, its free damage, if you have an open CD and can't cast obliterate just shove RW in there. So you basically see the synergy between the tier 1 and 2 talents.

That's the basics of the machinegun rotation that is the other option for Frost instead of BOS. Now there are a few variants of it but this is the basic go to. Also you have the option of playing unholy as well. 

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Awesome guys. Thank you very much for giving something to start playing around with.

I appreciate it. :)

Browed you running talents as they show in your armory?

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#dZa!2002120

What's the basic rotation idea for that talent setup?

Aardvark thanks for the machine gun tips. I had been running it with Frostscythe and Runic alteration makes more sense for single target with the Icy Talons talent. Thank you both again.

Edited by Prophet001

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Try out UH as Demon pointed out, its damage is not that far behind Frost atm and if you dont have loads of legendaries for Frost, it might be worth a try. 

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Yes, considering the info provided by @demonardvark it is worth fleshing out to give a bit more clarity and highlight the differences in strategy.

The principle of my build is to supplement lack of BoS with an enhanced Rime manufacturing process to give you your primary burst phase via Obliteration (1 cost runes = more Obliterates = more Rime procs). You may find that Frostscythe could be worked into this build for M+/heavy AoE but you won't outperform the legendary helm buffed Rime (requires Gathering Storm to max out).

I find it's more robust in movement/downtime scenarios as your reliance on one effective usage of your cooldowns lessens due to them being up again relatively soon compared to BoS. (more on-demand for when you meet an unexpected situation too)

Worth noting: It makes relics for Blast Radius go off the chart for importance as Howling Blast becomes such a high percentage of your overall damage.

The rotation also simplifies to purely 'pop CD's, spam Obliterate, use Rime procs and weave in FS to use up overflow on RP'.

You can go more micro management than that, but it's the essence. 

Another note: I think the stat weighting is also more neutral with my build, obviously the Rime percentage loves mastery, however high volume Rime requires good haste and a good number of crits for those Rimes doesn't hurt either.

I stick to the 20 - 25% crit, 20+% haste and rest into mastery mantra.

This build definitely had it's hayday during the pre-nerf helm days, but I've found it pretty reliable since as well.

Edited by Browed

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23 minutes ago, Browed said:

The rotation also simplifies to purely 'pop CD's, spam Obliterate, use Rime procs and weave in FS to use up overflow on RP'.

Thank you for the added info. This looks like a fun build and I'm definitely going to try it out.

One question if I may, during Obliteration uptime what is your priority? FS > Obliterate > FS > Obliterate  or do you weave in Howling Blast if you get a Rime proc? 8s isn't very long and it seems like it's pretty important to handle that part right.

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The aim is less about filling Obliteration window than it is about filling the PoF window, so you could think of it thus:

(CDs PoF/RW/trinket) Obliteration -> Obliterate -> Rime (if proc) -> Extend runes with Empower Rune Weapon -> FS if no runes (chance to get one back) or overcapping RP.

I worry less about overcapping RP during Obliteration, try to get as many Rime in the PoF window as you can.

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 i certainly like the principle of this rotation, basically almost making frost an old arms warrior per say. Im going to try it out myself later tonight :D

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Will give it a lash tonight too for the lols. I like BoS but suffer from not getting massively long breaths, probably due to not having enough RP or runes before mashing the Bos button. 

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24 minutes ago, Prophet001 said:

Thank you again :)

Welcome.

It's been good to refresh my thoughts on this topic.

The thing that interests me at the moment is T20 x 4.

The 2 min CD for extended BoS on every use is certainly where the focus lies but I'm still hopeful for some 7.2.5 fiddling. (please Blizz)

They could fix so many things by just changing the T20 x 4 to include Obliteration... now that would be interesting to have a 1min CD on both PoF (without Icecap obviously) and Obliteration.

Leaves Glacial Advance as useless still, but I doubt anyone is crying over that... I would swap Glacial Advance with an earlier Tier (Frostscythe) and make it cost zero runes.

Edited by Browed
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On 5/2/2017 at 2:40 PM, Browed said:

The 2 min CD for extended BoS on every use is certainly where the focus lies but I'm still hopeful for some 7.2.5 fiddling. (please Blizz)

They could fix so many things by just changing the T20 x 4 to include Obliteration... 

Well, I feel like a prophet now :D...

Looks like I got my wish...

Quote
  • Item - Death Knight T20 Frost 2P Bonus Empower Rune Weapon increases your damage dealt by 20% for 10 sec. Obliterate has a 10% chance to deal damage a second time.
  • Item - Death Knight T20 Frost 4P Bonus Reduce the cooldown of Empower Rune Weapon by 1 second for every 60 Runic Power spent. When Obliterate deals damage, you have a 10% chance for your next Frost Strike to consume no Runic Power.

Granted it's not 'exactly' the idea I had in mind, it's certainly more interesting for non-BoS specs and especially Obliteration :)

With the new legendary ring (free Gathering Storm talent) a build with Obliteration can now be a MASSIVE burst with Remorseless Winter up, spamming with a chance at free double damage on single target Obliterate and now add Frostscythe in addition to the existing spec you can use it as AoE burst, stacking with GS & Rime procs... it's pretty awesome. (I know FScy doesn't proc Rime, but still it's nice to have options again)

The alternative is to go RA for pretty much infinite FS spam, but I'm not sure the value is there for that. (My guess is that BoS players will use RA for obvious reasons)

Edited by Browed

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After pondering further I think the new ring actually could be better for Obliteration builds than I first thought.

Single target: With the more powerful Obliterate, our burst window has better potential if blessed by good RNG.

With the ring in place, choosing Frostscythe is the logical choice because you then have a new proc to spam depending on the situation.

If I'm single target I eat KM procs with Obliterate and hope for those extra hits.

If I'm doing AoE I eat KM procs with Frostscythe .. .the more targets the merrier for some massive burst ( Obliteration has guarenteed KM procs don't forget that ;). )

Double Obliterates and Frostscythes with 100% KM procs are FAR more attractive to us than BoS users who will be relying on RNG for those KM procs... I think this could be a very good balance change and answers many of my problems with a hybrid build.

Rejoice! 

This refocus does bring in stat weight issues though, it goes without saying that AoE will favour Mastery via Frostscythe replacing Obliterate as the only non Frost damage ability.. that is a big shift and I think needs a lot of thought before any recommendations are put out there.

Edited by Browed

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