Starym

ToS Mythic Race Day 12: KJ Overtuned, Limit Quits

19 posts in this topic

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It's day 12 and not that much has changed since day 8, with only Exorsus having managed to power through Fallen Avatar and join Method on 8/9, even with the recent hotfix nerfing the bosses Dark MarkDark Mark ability by 25% and having it not target healers anymore.

It's day 12 and not that much has changed since day 8, with only Exorsus having managed to power through Fallen Avatar and join Method on 8/9, even with the recent hotfix nerfing the bosses Dark MarkDark Mark ability by 25% and having it not target healers anymore. It's a little unclear as to when exactly the fix went into effect so it's possible both of this week's kills (Method's re-kill and Exorsus subsequent World 2nd) were done after said fix. It took Method 2 days to re-kill Avatar, even with the winning strategy in-hand, with Exorsus getting him only 2 hours after that. Since then it's been very quiet on the Avatar front and no other guild has managed to down him, even after 500+ wipes in the case of Asian top guild Alpha and, more importantly, no other guilds has gained access to the final boss of the Tomb, Kil'jaeden.

Now, it appears the big red fellow is getting to be a bit of a problem for both guilds currently on him, as they've had some less than flattering words to share on the matter:

And then the conversation went on to specifics, namely the soaking mechanic present on a lot of bosses:

While to some this may just sound like random complaining, remember that there wasn't any of this type of chatter back in Nighthold on Gul'dan, so there may really be something to it this time around.

In other news we've had US/OC No.1 Limit suddenly drop out of the race, as the previous bans they'd received over real-money sell runs and a few other players quitting, in addition to Fallen Avatar's difficulty and other factors seem to have put an end to their domination of the US/OC scene.

And that's about it for today, as Method and Exorsus bang their heads against Kil'jaeden's wall and around 29 other guilds try to get Fallen Avatar down, the Tomb of Sargeras might see a third reset with the final boss staying alive. There are still a couple of days for KJ to fall, but based on the guilds' tweets that doesn't seem to be likely. As always, for live and up-to-date race coverage, check out Method.gg.

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They (Both method AND Exorsus) really needed the rogues for the immunity for FA and apparently even that isn't enough for KJ.

Forcing guilds to rely only on immunities to even have a very slim chance of beating a boss means you rule out half the specs in the game.

 

I am all for "This class mechanic is really useful for boss X Y and Z but not for A B or C" but not if: 1. it is an absolute requirement and 2. you need a metric ton of it.

(+ the speed boost of course for quick positioning)

People that main other melee's like DK's, ferals etc. probably feel shafted in the race.

 

It's sad. Blizzard can't beat the content with their own QA teams and still deems it passable to put in overtuned bosses. Archimonde in WoD was one such boss where they nerfed 4 or 5 abilities 3x over to make it even slightly doable. It's getting a bit ridiculous.

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So because you can't roflstomp bosses in under 2 weeks anymore it's "overtuned".

Edited by Maruken
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23 minutes ago, Maruken said:

So because you can't roflstomp bosses in under 2 weeks anymore it's "overtuned".

It's not about roflstomping, the abilities the boss is using, that are supposed to be nullified, avoided, immunized, etc. Cannot be.

Edited by Ninypoo
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40 minutes ago, Maruken said:

So because you can't roflstomp bosses in under 2 weeks anymore it's "overtuned".

You can call it two weeks, but they probably wipe on bosses per day as often as you do per month, if not more.

 

I consider myself semi-hardcore with wiping ~40 times per boss per raid day and I raid only 3-4x per week. It took Method and Exorsus 400+ attempts for FA. You do the math how long it'd take me to take it down pre-nerf. Also I consider their guilds to be far more professional and coordinated than mine. That's not an insult to my guild, that's a compliment to theirs.

 

And trust me, these guys aren't roflstomping these bosses. They have to be at the top of the skill ceiling and bring the best possible class combinations to even do this. This is a luxury (By extreme effort) only the top 40-50 guilds in the world have. If it takes these guilds this long to "roflstomp" after 400-500 wipes with their ideal setups and coordination, you will not even see the face of Kil'jaeden on Mythic before the 30% nerf sets in if Blizzard doesn't tune it.

 

Unless you're one of the top guilds member, of course.

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Sad to hear the words like "over-tuned" from top guilds... Its like everyone forgot that  classic raid even without difficulties we not cleared for half a year and so on. As my opinion this shows that they used-to easy mod that mythic is cleared in previous tier sets and so on. And like everyone forgot the Trial of Valor raid already??

I mean no offence to them, but this behavior from them shows that they are not anything good from mid-range guilds who simply do not spend that much time for raiding.

There was more respectful way to say that, like this "KJ is hell of a lot stronger than everything before, and we think there might be a problem with it", but we have what we have.

"Damn, shame..." - Tychus Findlay

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'Whaaa overtuned too hard we got banned etc'

404 sympathy not found. If you're so hellbent on winning an imaginary fight before anyone else, you don't get to complain about it not being easy.  And then they wonder why nobody can stand them. Get stuffed, Limit.  And yes that included precious Furty too. 

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Folks, these guilds are the best in the world.  There's a difference between merely hard (which is what these players thrive on) and unpassable.  I'm sure that, in time, Method would get this boss down.  But if doing so requires intense class stacking or some other cheesy/gimmicky way to accomplish it, then the fight is overtuned or broken.  

 

Also, the reason some old raids took up to half a year to finish is because a.) the raid was released before max level was reached (i.e. at the beginning of the game/expansion), and b.) coordinating 40 people is quite different from coordinating 20 people.

 

Just my two cents.

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1 hour ago, Worldcrusher said:

Folks, these guilds are the best in the world.  There's a difference between merely hard (which is what these players thrive on) and unpassable.  I'm sure that, in time, Method would get this boss down.  But if doing so requires intense class stacking or some other cheesy/gimmicky way to accomplish it, then the fight is overtuned or broken.  

 

Also, the reason some old raids took up to half a year to finish is because a.) the raid was released before max level was reached (i.e. at the beginning of the game/expansion), and b.) coordinating 40 people is quite different from coordinating 20 people.

 

Just my two cents.

Don't forget the attunements that took a few months and the huge amount of cunsumables and resistance fear to be farmed before even stepping in the raid.

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4 hours ago, Dantalian said:

Its like everyone forgot that  classic raid even without difficulties we not cleared for half a year and so on. As my opinion this shows that they used-to easy mod that mythic is cleared in previous tier sets and so on. And like everyone forgot the Trial of Valor raid already??

This was a COMPLETELY different time in the game. Do you even remember how hard it was to get an epic? It was brutal. Let alone you had to "earn" access to every raid which took a lot of time. Raids were never even completed with 40 people actively on the boss unless it was that top guild racing world firsts.

Most people in the game didn't even have an epic mount until BC dropped because gold was so painfully hard to come by. I'd be curious a stat of people that even cleared all wings of DM let alone entered Naxx. Also remember there was literally zero group finding mechanics other than spamming chat and no cross server information. Even queueing for a BG could take a half hour depending on your battle group and time of day, and that at least had a system!

If anything, it shows these raids are a lot harder, just by the sheer number of people and times that they are attempting and failing. Their gear is as min-maxed as it gets and as perfect a situation as they could ever be set for, and still can't get it done.

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The thing people seem to be missing here is arbitrary difficulty. Aka there's a huge difference between a genuinely hard boss that requires every sinlge member to play perfectly has tons of mechanics to avoid and a steep dps requirement and a simply bugged or overtuned boss that you literally CAN NOT kill until a) Blizzard nerf it b) Blizzard fix the bugs and/or c) you get AT LEAST x amount of item level.

I've actually played in a World First guild and let me tell you, smashing your head against Kael'thas before Black Temple was released wasn't fun. It wasn't challenging. It wasn't any sort of race or competition or "who's best" either. Blizzard simply did not have BT ready and so they made Kael literally impossible (funny story, it turns out a guild actually could get passed the bugged out phase using basically cheats - a spammed macro that had no reason to do anything - but even they couldn't kill the guy even with that) so they wouldn't have to explain why we can't go to BT.

Someone mentioned half a year to kill a boss? I like that ideas too, but the reality was ridiculous - Ragnaros stayed alive for one reason and one reason only: he was literally impossible. He only died after one or two huge nerfs that basically flipped a switch from "no, this is not killable" to "yes".

Now I don't know if Kil'jaeden is any of these things, but I'll go ahead and trust the two guilds that are actually on him, as they really didn't complain as much in Nighthold (obv they didn't in EN and ToV either, but for very different reasons :D ). If KJ truly is impossible in order for Blizzard to deflate the "lol raids are so ez now Blizz!" people, that's not ok and it's not a way to tune your raids. If he isn't and it's simply a matter of skill then fair enough. Oh and one more thing, just a pet peeve I have - encounters that require a ridiculous amount of a specific class to even be possible are bullshit. That is all.

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Oh and just to mention I actually do like the way Fallen Avatar is tuned atm, he's clearly killable, has even been nerfed and there's still only 2 guilds that got him down.

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2 hours ago, Starym said:

Oh and just to mention I actually do like the way Fallen Avatar is tuned atm, he's clearly killable, has even been nerfed and there's still only 2 guilds that got him down.

It may still turn out that you need to stack 5 of one class (Rogue) in which case I'd personally still call it overtuned. If that can be overcome with ilvl or whatever, then sure, but these guys are already nearing 930-933 average raid-wide.

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From a game mechanic perspective I am assuming this sucks really bad. Personally I haven't done better then a normal raid and I am more casual and into lore.

And personally the 'overtuning' of kiljaeden is slightly entertaining for me. kil'jaeden is sargarus's main man, and when we are fighting him, its obvious its perma death, full power jaeden.

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In the end, the guilds still in the race will have the final word over whether KJ really is overtuned or not, amirite?

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Couldn't Blizzard hire 20 raiders under NDA or something to sit in their office when testing content? I know those 20 would have the advantage, but i mean really there could be some parameters made that would differ it from the live game when it releases. Just throwing shots at the dark, I never really understood going on PTR and testing 30-50% of a bosses health b4 it annihilates your whole group. Not really thorough testing for how fast Blizzard wants to pump out content now. This isn't me complaining because the game's gonna be played either way. There has to be a solution though other than "git gud sorry about your ~900 attempts." These raiders understand what progress and hard work is, they aren't being whiny. I'm sure there's legitimate concerns that LFR babbies don't even know about yet want to mouth off about people who are way better than them. 

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On 13/07/2017 at 6:01 PM, Zentris said:

Couldn't Blizzard hire 20 raiders under NDA or something to sit in their office when testing content?

How do you choose the 20, though? Are they the ones that are friends with Blizzard employees? Are they a single guild that can no longer join the race? Are they from different guilds and, if so, doesn't that then completely remove the idea of having different tactics being discovered. What about things like geographical issues? Exorsus has members that don't speak English so, could they be brought in? How do you stop members of guilds just telling people in the privacy of their guild voice chat? How do you allow any new blood into the race if the first raiders come from a certain set group of guilds? If you start to go further down the rankings to slightly less competitive guilds, are they really equipped to give feedback?

There's a lot of issues that will accompany something like this.

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      Mittbitt : I will always get out of bed for some mythic plus regardless of the affix combos, however the affix combo that least excites me is Bolstering, Grievous, Tyrannical.
       
      What do you think of the current affixes as they are now? Which should be changed or even removed completely and are there any you’d like to see added in BfA?
      Jdotb: Tyrannical is the big offender at the moment. You don’t have to dive very deep into the analytics to see that all the highest keys are on Fortified weeks. The 40% hp on Tyrannical is the problem - it just makes the bosses take waaaaay too long. The damage bump is fine where it’s at, but the hp buff needs to be cut to at most 25%, maybe even 20%. Bosses are already the hardest parts of high keys because of scaling; making them do more damage AND live almost half again as long is insurmountable.
      Bolstering is probably a bit too punishing. If you screw up, you can’t really undo it without wiping. If the Bolstering buff had a duration (maybe 10-15s) or a cap (maybe 10 stacks) it would be a lot more palatable.
      Explosive starts to feel a little overwhelming on high keys because the orb health scales with the key level so instead of just requiring a global cooldown, the orbs now need people to focus them for several casts.
      Volcanic is a joke now that probably needs to be reworked. It isn’t threatening and half the time it doesn’t even require you to move.
      Quaking for the most part is ok but can be devastating on boss fights where you absolutely need your Prydaz, Xavaric's Magnum Opus shield up to live through certain mechanics. There isn’t a way to play around that currently. If Quaking always did damage to your hp pool directly instead of eating shields, I think it would improve the affix a lot.
      Mittbitt : I feel that Tyrannical needs some tuning, possibly by dropping the hp that bosses receive and beefing up trash more. However, Tyrannical boss hp and abilities get out of control much sooner, and honestly are the least enjoyable mythic plus weeks where we typically farm 20-24 keys.
       
      What’s your favorite, least favorite and funniest “trick” you’ve used in the past to get that tier done in time?
      Jdotb: My favorite trick would have to be keeping the cats in the front of DHT from jumping. That made the instance so much less frustrating.
      Least favorite trick is delaying on the second platform of Viz’aduum. He always targets me with the disintegrate so I have to spend a minute or two running back and forth between two spots.
      Funniest trick was probably taunting Ularogg to keep him from going underground (has since been fixed) - if you were successful, he would instantly punch you really hard and probably kill you on higher keys, so the taunt “winner” would usually be the dead guy.
       
      That's it for the first part of this interview, we had to cut it up into two for, well, obvious reasons! Huge thanks to the Mythic + crew for the insightful answers and you check back in a few days when we finish this up with their thoughts on addons, raiding and its impact on M+,  the Mythic Dungeon Invitational, their suggestions for the future of M+ and much more!
    • By Stan

      Call of the Scarab micro-holiday is back with new temporary faction mounts. The event is active through January 23, 2018 and the mounts last for 7 days.
      2018 Updates
      Players who have completed Antorus, the Burning Throne raid need to talk to Rhonormu near the gong to enter the correct event phase of Silithus. The Scarab Lord Black Qiraji Resonating Crystal mount received a brand new model this year. You can find more information here. Two new mounts can be purchased for 1 Abyssal Crest during the event. Ruby Qiraji Resonating Crystal can be purchased from Warlord Gorchuk. Sapphire Qiraji Resonating Crystal can be purchased from Field Marshal Snowfall. The mounts are not permanent and last for 7 days. Blizzard (Source)
      *1/21- The Call of the Scarab Micro-Holiday is now live. Players who have completed Antorus , the Burning Throne and who are in a different phase can speak to Rhonormu near the gong to enter the correct event phase.
      On January 23, 2006, a bloody war was triggered by a simple sound: the banging of a gong. No rallying fanfare, no bloodthirsty yell; just an eerie silence. Those long, uneasy seconds of dread. The calm before the storm.
      Standing shoulder-to-shoulder before the Scarab Wall, no one could have predicted what would happen—an epic ten-hour battle that claimed the lives of thousands of Azeroth’s bravest—or fully comprehended the effect it would have.
      ACTION FIRST, FACTION SECOND
      That’s not to say the battle at the gates of Ahn’Qiraj came as a surprise. When the menace of C’Thun turned into an urgent threat, leaders across the world pored over plans and forged unlikely connections as pressure mounted. Both factions knew war was coming and personal glory was a hubris no-one could risk. Any notion that one army could defeat General Rajaxx and his colossal battalion was soon abandoned as fantasy.
      It was a unique time: scattered armies with varying allegiances were thrown together and faction pride was put aside. Let’s be clear: the battle at Ahn’Qiraj was won purely on the principle “united we stand, divided we fall.”
      WARMONGERING VS. GOLD HUNGERING
      This uneasy alliance was not without its critics. Some showed their disapproval by shunning the war effort altogether, but others expressed opposition through acts of aggression. Rogue elements on both sides, unwilling to stomach this perceived betrayal of their faction, did not sit idle. Just as neutral auction houses became a tool for factions to share resources, they also became virtual battlegrounds. Crucial resources were picked up for next-to-nothing and sold on for personal gain. As with all wars, those who profit aren’t always the brave.
      The sheer scale of that war effort is almost unimaginable when we live in a time of extended storage and fast mail. But back then, backpacks and cloth stacks were smaller. Getting precious resources gathered, sorted, and sent took many hours. And it took several weeks to source bandages, food, and equipment—resources that were in high demand and would soon dwindle.
      THE IMPORTANCE OF REMEMBRANCE
      There are parallels with current events that are impossible to ignore: once more, we Azerothians stand united against the Burning Legion as they wreak havoc across the Broken Isles. We attempt to put aside a complex, bitter history in order to defeat a common enemy. We eye each other suspiciously, even as we fight side by side.
      We would do well, in these dark times, to remember the courage and spirit of those who were there at the Gates of Ahn’Qiraj. We must have long memories if we’re to make quick work of the demon forces we now face.
      From January 21–23 we ask that you join us as we remember the fallen and celebrate the victory. All of Azeroth are invited to a special holiday, ‘Call of the Scarab,’ where we will gather to perform acts of remembrance and share our factions’ pride.
    • By Jovovich
      World of Warcraft - [Horde][US-Arthas]Unhuman - Francais - 2/11M - www.unhuman.ca
      Unhuman est à la recherche de nouveaux visages qui seraient intéressés à joindre ses rangs!
      Forum: http://forum.unhuman.ca/forum/7-recrutement/
      Raiding:
      - [Raid] Undying AtBT: 2/11M, 11/11H, 2soir, Mardi et Mercredi 7hpm à 10h30hpm  (EST)
      - [Raid] Baguettes & Squareheads AtBT: 1/11M, 11/11H, 2soir, Mardi et Jeudi 7h30pm à 10h30hpm (EST)
      - [Raid] Casual as Fuck AtBT: 9/11H, 1soir, Mercredi 7hpm à 10h30hpm  (EST)
      PvP:
      - [PvP] Unhuman RBG: 1800 rating, 1soir Dimanche des 9hpm (EST)
      Communauté:
      - Plus de  450 accounts
      Unhuman est plus qu'une guilde de raiding performante, c'est aussi la plus grosse communauté Francophone sur World of Warcraft US. Depuis sa création en 2006, Unhuman cherche à offrir à ses raiders un environnement de jeu qui favorise la progression et ce avec des joueurs d'excellent calibre. Nous sommes constamment à la recherche de nouveaux joueurs que ce soit PVE ou PVP, mais aussi des masters du Pet Battles, des champions de l'Archéologie ou peu importe ce qui vous branche ingame. Vous êtes donc assuré de trouver ce que vous cherchez chez nous peu importe votre style de jeu.
      Pour toutes questions...
      - http://unhuman.ca/
      - Jovovich-Arthas, Guild Master
      - Falfuris-Arthas, Officier
      - Shockadins-Arthas, Officier
    • By Jovovich
      World of Warcraft - [Horde][US-Arthas]Unhuman - French - 2/11M - www.unhuman.ca
      Unhuman is RECRUITING!
      Forum: http://forum.unhuman.ca/forum/7-recrutement/
      Raiding:
      - [Raid] Undying AtBT: 2/11M,11/11H, 2day, Tuesday and Wednesday 7hpm to 10h30hpm  (EAST)
      - [Raid] Baguettes & Squareheads AtBT:1/11M, 11/11H, 2day, Tuesday and Thursday 7h30pm to 10h30hpm (EAST)
      - [Raid] Casual as Fuck AtBT: 9/11H, 1day, Wednesday 7hpm to 10h30hpm (EAST)
      PvP:
      - [PvP] Unhuman RBG: 1800 rating, 1day Sunday starting at 9hpm (EAST)
       
      Community:
      - More than 450 account
      Unhuman is a performing raiding guild with multiple raid groups, it's one of the biggest, for not saying the biggest one, french community on World of Warcraft US. Unhuman has been created in December 2006 and will continue to live for a long time, Unhuman is trying to give to our raiders everything they need to be focus only on good progression!. Unhuman is always looking for new players of all kind, PvE or PvP, even with Battle pets or Archeologists or anything else you can do in the game....You will be sure to find your way with Unhuman!
      For any question...
      - http://unhuman.ca/
      - Jovovich-Arthas, Guild Master
      - Falfuris-Arthas, Officier
      - Shockadins-Arthas, Officier
    • By Stan

      An eight hour maintenance is scheduled for NA realms tomorrow. If you're playing on EU realms, expect the same eight hours of downtime on Saturday, January 20.
      NA: January 19th, 7:00 AM PST - 3:00 PM PST EU: January 20th, 2:00 AM CET - 10:AM CET (Source /u/zelwake) Patch 7.3.5 went live with a lot of issues. Some of them are discussed in the latest tweets roundup. Community Manager Ythisens confirmed that world scaling has a negative on older raid content and a fix should be implemented before the weekend, possibly during the extended maintenance.
      Blizzard (Source)
      We will be performing scheduled maintenance beginning on Friday, January 19th, 7:00 AM (PST) and we expect the service to be available again at approximately 3:00 PM (PST). During this time the game will be unavailable for play.

      Please follow @BlizzardCS on Twitter for further updates. The Blizzard Battle.net App has been updated with the following notification: