Stan

Upcoming Chen Changes

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Blizzard brought up an upcoming change to Chen's trait. Fortifying Brew will grant 25 Brew immediately when Chen starts casting it and 30 Brew per second after that.

The time to reach max Brew is still 2.5 seconds. Front-loading a portion of Brew should make Chen players feel less frustrated when interrupted.

Blizzard LogoBlizzard (Source)

Hey everyone, just wanted to drop in with an update here!

As I mentioned before, while we aren't really looking to buff Chen, we feel like the Brew-related concerns you've brought up are valid. We agree that it feels bad to have your Trait interrupted when you're low on Brew, almost like a 5-second silence. With that in mind, I'm excited to share that we're going to modify Chen's Trait.

In an upcoming patch, Fortifying Brew will change to grant 25 Brew immediately when Chen starts drinking, and then 30 Brew per second after that (down from 40). It will still take 2.5 seconds to reach max Brew just like before, but with a big chunk of that front-loaded it should be a lot less frustrating when you get interrupted early.

This change is feeling really good in our playtests, and I think it'll be a big quality of life boost for the Brewmaster!

Also, while we're not looking to make large-scale talent updates at this time, we really appreciate all the feedback that's been shared in this thread and will keep it in mind for potential future changes. Thanks again! =)

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17 minutes ago, KingMe said:

Always a good feeling when one of your Heroes gets some love. :D

Always a nice feeling to see normal changes to a hero that you don't play, rather than them being buffed uncontrollably and being forced to play them :p

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1 hour ago, Blainie said:

Always a nice feeling to see normal changes to a hero that you don't play, rather than them being buffed uncontrollably and being forced to play them :p

Yes, that is also nice........ Thunder stealer. :P 

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 I'm curious to see who will get reworked this time. Li Li? The Lost Vikings? Abathur?

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16 minutes ago, Valhalen said:

 I'm curious to see who will get reworked this time. Li Li? The Lost Vikings? Abathur?

Safe money is on something like Tyrael and Muradin. They've been consistently going through Warriors for a while with most patches, either with reworks or with controlled nerfs and buffs. A couple of the oldest Warriors in the game and have slipped off in favour of other Warriors. 

Would also expect to see changes to Jaina, she has the most outdated talent tiers out of the conventional mages now. 

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7 hours ago, Plergoth said:

Safe money is on something like Tyrael and Muradin. They've been consistently going through Warriors for a while with most patches, either with reworks or with controlled nerfs and buffs. A couple of the oldest Warriors in the game and have slipped off in favour of other Warriors. 

Would also expect to see changes to Jaina, she has the most outdated talent tiers out of the conventional mages now. 

Good Lord, I thought I was the only one who believed Jaina and Tyrael desperately need some talent tree reworks.

Tyrael has been hit hard with nothing but nerfs in many patches. He was legit the only warrior lacking any means to reduce ability damage (while even Valla and Butcher have lul) and when they finally gave it to him, they made him good ONLY for that (rip Imposing Will, Hardened Shield). I'm positive the only reason he's ever so prevalent in HGC is just because of his 2 Heroics being really good (Sanctification dominating but Judgmenet has come forth as well) and not much beyond that (Holy Ground also but only in that level there's the coordination required to fully utilize it plus many games are decided pre-level 16). So, the reason he 'suffers' is because he's too 'meta'.

Jaina... from where to begin? I've already had my rants about her, here and elsewhere, so I'll try to be laconic. I have her complete with master skin on 2 accounts and that was LONG before she dropped to 4k. So you realise, because I love her that much, her current state is really saddening to me. She lacks in basically every regard to every other mage in the game; range, cooldowns etc Only her damage is up to par but she's very handicapped by the long cd on Blizzard, her main ability and otherwise short range which makes her combos and damage predictable. She got many nerfs that were totally uncalled for (while Chromie got overbuffed smh).

Many times, in developer comments you read "we feel that we could add some power that resonates with the character's flavor/ talents fitting for the Lich King (for example)". Shouldn't the Archangel of Justice and one of the strongest and most talented sorcerecess in all of Azeroth feel like themselves? Or everybody is gonna get unique questing and special standalone talents that feel true to their character except from them? With how things are going, I'm afraid for the latter...

Mura is mostly ok imho; he could use some work sure, just not that large scope. Chen already had a large scale rework in the past, if they plan on doing it again...

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Hi guys. Im reading IV for a long time now but never had an account. I made it just now cause some of the comments/posts just need to be answered ;)

As for Chen, I think this change is quite nice. Sometimes you don't need to do a full rework to fix some problems with given hero...

@SteveFrost
I can't agree with you. Im not an expert on Jaina (got sth like 60 games with her) but I do enjoy her very much. She sometimes feel a bit "clunky" and lack of mobility and escape mechanisms hurt a lot, BUT... if properly played she can melt down enemy team almost by herself - and that is why you pick her. She just need a proper team play and cooperation and maybe sometimes she needs saving. Other then that she is a nice char.

Maybe she could get some changes to make her more versatile (I play almost always on 1 build) but imo she do not need a rework. I think that she is a kind of hero that can be broken very easily and make her picked/banned with same frequency as Malth/Genji today...

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9 hours ago, SteveFrost said:

Good Lord, I thought I was the only one who believed Jaina and Tyrael desperately need some talent tree reworks.

Tyrael has been hit hard with nothing but nerfs in many patches. He was legit the only warrior lacking any means to reduce ability damage (while even Valla and Butcher have lul) and when they finally gave it to him, they made him good ONLY for that (rip Imposing Will, Hardened Shield). I'm positive the only reason he's ever so prevalent in HGC is just because of his 2 Heroics being really good (Sanctification dominating but Judgmenet has come forth as well) and not much beyond that (Holy Ground also but only in that level there's the coordination required to fully utilize it plus many games are decided pre-level 16). So, the reason he 'suffers' is because he's too 'meta'.

Jaina... from where to begin? I've already had my rants about her, here and elsewhere, so I'll try to be laconic. I have her complete with master skin on 2 accounts and that was LONG before she dropped to 4k. So you realise, because I love her that much, her current state is really saddening to me. She lacks in basically every regard to every other mage in the game; range, cooldowns etc Only her damage is up to par but she's very handicapped by the long cd on Blizzard, her main ability and otherwise short range which makes her combos and damage predictable. She got many nerfs that were totally uncalled for (while Chromie got overbuffed smh).

Many times, in developer comments you read "we feel that we could add some power that resonates with the character's flavor/ talents fitting for the Lich King (for example)". Shouldn't the Archangel of Justice and one of the strongest and most talented sorcerecess in all of Azeroth feel like themselves? Or everybody is gonna get unique questing and special standalone talents that feel true to their character except from them? With how things are going, I'm afraid for the latter...

Mura is mostly ok imho; he could use some work sure, just not that large scope. Chen already had a large scale rework in the past, if they plan on doing it again...

Nice to see you being enthusiastic about Tyrael and Jaina. I understand your reasoning of why those two heroes would need a rework, I agree on some parts but I disagree on others. Tyrael yes has been nerfed, but he is definitely not weak. His strengths, yes, were partially dependent on Imposing Will and Hardened Shield, but his base kit alone is really good. He offers cross-supporting with his shielding and has incredible mobility and decent waveclear and is fairly tanky just by his max hp alone, meaning he is still the best dive-buddy for heroes like Greymane, Illidan and Malthael. He is just naturally built for utility and not for pure tankiness or crowd control. Imposing Will was strong, but was kinda bad for the game by having no counterplay and providing just a bit too much as well as being too much of an "Auto pick" for the talent tier. Hardened shield was only removed because Blizzard wants to remove such generic talents from the game and thus they got rid of it. Not that long ago heroes like Dehaka got their Hardened shield removed, just for the same reason. In 5 on 5 teamfights he depends on his heroic abilities, but he has been that way for a long time, and many other heroes are the same way too (Arthas and Muradin for example). Would expect Tyrael to be reworked sooner or later, but not that high on Blizzard's priority list as the hero is in a fine spot and the only reasons to rework would be just to get rid of the multiple generic old talents like Vigorous Strike from his talent tree. Jaina on the other hand, is just one of the unfortunate heroes who suffers in this meta, where heroes like Genji reign supreme and kill such vulnerable heroes with ease. Pre nerf Jaina was a problem in the game by being way too powerful by having talents like Bolt of the Storm available and she even after all of the nerfs she went through is still power-level wise viable, and offers some of the best burst damage available to any hero. Its just that in this meta, she is unfortunately not that good, but as the meta will shift, she will very likely make a comeback. Chromie is really average hero, annoying to play against for sure, but power level wise just a middle of the pack hero. Muradin imo has still a bit too many generic talents and would expect them to be replaced with other options but overall he is fine.

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I feel like this was a needed change. Interested to try it out but beware low mobility glass cannons!! (Talking bout you Kael)

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On 7/22/2017 at 6:42 AM, Godeyes said:

Hi guys. Im reading IV for a long time now but never had an account. I made it just now cause some of the comments/posts just need to be answered ;)

As for Chen, I think this change is quite nice. Sometimes you don't need to do a full rework to fix some problems with given hero...

@SteveFrost
I can't agree with you. Im not an expert on Jaina (got sth like 60 games with her) but I do enjoy her very much. She sometimes feel a bit "clunky" and lack of mobility and escape mechanisms hurt a lot, BUT... if properly played she can melt down enemy team almost by herself - and that is why you pick her. She just need a proper team play and cooperation and maybe sometimes she needs saving. Other then that she is a nice char.

Maybe she could get some changes to make her more versatile (I play almost always on 1 build) but imo she do not need a rework. I think that she is a kind of hero that can be broken very easily and make her picked/banned with same frequency as Malth/Genji today...

Yeah, the problem with a lot of the pure mages is that characters like Genji just blow them up.  This was always a problem to some extent (Illadin/Zeratul), but Genji can do it much safer then those heroes can.

Personally, if anything were to be re-worked it should be melee assassins, given how they have a really nasty tendency to die (Thrall comes to mind) or be next to useless in teamfights (Butcher).  Address that, and ranges heroes that can blow those targets up (especially when grouped in tight quarters) will suddenly become a LOT more popular.

With double tank on the way out (Malth) and ranged assassins much preferred, Jaina exists purely for stun comps with heroes like ETC, Zagara, or other heroes with an AoE stun she can combo Ring of Frost with.

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8 hours ago, Vesko said:

Changes? You mean Chenges, right?

Absolutely terrible. I love it. Take my like and get out!

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On 22/7/2017 at 1:42 PM, Godeyes said:

Hi guys. Im reading IV for a long time now but never had an account. I made it just now cause some of the comments/posts just need to be answered ;)

As for Chen, I think this change is quite nice. Sometimes you don't need to do a full rework to fix some problems with given hero...

@SteveFrost
I can't agree with you. Im not an expert on Jaina (got sth like 60 games with her) but I do enjoy her very much. She sometimes feel a bit "clunky" and lack of mobility and escape mechanisms hurt a lot, BUT... if properly played she can melt down enemy team almost by herself - and that is why you pick her. She just need a proper team play and cooperation and maybe sometimes she needs saving. Other then that she is a nice char.

Maybe she could get some changes to make her more versatile (I play almost always on 1 build) but imo she do not need a rework. I think that she is a kind of hero that can be broken very easily and make her picked/banned with same frequency as Malth/Genji today...

 

On 22/7/2017 at 8:57 PM, BrightwingMain said:

Nice to see you being enthusiastic about Tyrael and Jaina. I understand your reasoning of why those two heroes would need a rework, I agree on some parts but I disagree on others. Tyrael yes has been nerfed, but he is definitely not weak. His strengths, yes, were partially dependent on Imposing Will and Hardened Shield, but his base kit alone is really good. He offers cross-supporting with his shielding and has incredible mobility and decent waveclear and is fairly tanky just by his max hp alone, meaning he is still the best dive-buddy for heroes like Greymane, Illidan and Malthael. He is just naturally built for utility and not for pure tankiness or crowd control. Imposing Will was strong, but was kinda bad for the game by having no counterplay and providing just a bit too much as well as being too much of an "Auto pick" for the talent tier. Hardened shield was only removed because Blizzard wants to remove such generic talents from the game and thus they got rid of it. Not that long ago heroes like Dehaka got their Hardened shield removed, just for the same reason. In 5 on 5 teamfights he depends on his heroic abilities, but he has been that way for a long time, and many other heroes are the same way too (Arthas and Muradin for example). Would expect Tyrael to be reworked sooner or later, but not that high on Blizzard's priority list as the hero is in a fine spot and the only reasons to rework would be just to get rid of the multiple generic old talents like Vigorous Strike from his talent tree. Jaina on the other hand, is just one of the unfortunate heroes who suffers in this meta, where heroes like Genji reign supreme and kill such vulnerable heroes with ease. Pre nerf Jaina was a problem in the game by being way too powerful by having talents like Bolt of the Storm available and she even after all of the nerfs she went through is still power-level wise viable, and offers some of the best burst damage available to any hero. Its just that in this meta, she is unfortunately not that good, but as the meta will shift, she will very likely make a comeback. Chromie is really average hero, annoying to play against for sure, but power level wise just a middle of the pack hero. Muradin imo has still a bit too many generic talents and would expect them to be replaced with other options but overall he is fine.

If everyone agreed with everyone on everything, that would be lame right? Maybe in some 'utopia' but that's getting out of topic. I don't mind :)

I can easily come off as biased when it comes to characters I really like; I try to be objective though. Tyrael has been like Jaina to me (master skin on 2 accs with the long grind, just way more games with Jaina lol). I get that a Hero doesn't need to excel in any specific part (1v1/pushing/teamfights etc) to be useful. For a warrior, Tyrael isn't that tanky (especially if you don't go the Regeneration Master route). All he has is a measly shield, that breaks very easily (Johanna's stronger AND gives cc immunity, Anub's equal the very least)- and the value allies get is laughable at best. No wonder ppl go Reciprocate and consider Salvation to be an inferior choice 99,99% of the time. I get that he has tradeoffs for that (mobility) but still, it's kinda off putting (for me at least). When they did a pass to many warriors recently, they said they wanted to give everyone an 'identity', while having Mura and ETC as the 'generalist' warrior picks. So, for Tyrael the 'identity' was supposedly the anti-ability damage warrior. Thing is, Anub and Arthas (who had a 1st and 2nd rework) already do that and offer a lot more utility to their team, way before heroics unlock (hard cc, peel, more tankiness etc). And yeah, some talents really shouldn't be there which pushes him even further up for a talent tree rework imho (like Raynor having Specialist/Support talents lul).

I did write about Jaina's damage being there (the only thing that's there). Yes, she can destroy entire teams, but like you said, she needs synergy from her team for that. Unless someone's lagging af or plain stupid, he ain't just gonna sit there and be hit by all 3 waves of Blizzard (which now does less damage than before unless you get all 3 waves to connect...). Pretty much every other mage can put 90-100% of his damage without much help and is independent(maybe Nazeebro too but when Vile Infection stacks, that's a tale for another time; a horror story to be more precise). I'd dare say she needs even more enabling from her team than Illidan does (a Tassadar/Uther with some strong frontline is more than enough imho) because, unfortunately for Jaina, people that can dive her and kill her without much trouble/mobile assassins are abundant these days and so too are the mage-resistant tanks and non-tanks as Blizz is increasing their number as well. You have legit no reason to pick her over Li-Ming/Gul'dansgame and pretty much everyone- unless your assassin wants to go Executioner ecks dee. And her talent build is pretty much carved in stone (something devs usually bring up as justification when reworking someone's talent tree; as with talents being unique to character), same with Tyrael.

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12 hours ago, SteveFrost said:

I'd dare say she needs even more enabling from her team than Illidan does (a Tassadar/Uther with some strong frontline is more than enough imho) because, unfortunately for Jaina, people that can dive her and kill her without much trouble/mobile assassins are abundant these days and so too are the mage-resistant tanks and non-tanks as Blizz is increasing their number as well. 

This is the biggest issue IMO. There are just too many counters to Jaina right now. You have to play incredibly conservatively and, if you do get caught out, you get punished harder than almost any other character. 

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      Tank Bruiser Fighter Stalker Marksman Mage Support Healer Diablo+ (ban) Sonya Varian(ban) Zeratul↑ Cassia Jaina — Ana Garrosh (ban)       Fenix (ban) Kael'thas-   Malfurion         Raynor↓ (ban)     Whitemane  
      Mid-tier generalists
      Tank Bruiser Fighter Stalker Marksman Mage Support Healer Anub'arak+ Artanis Alarak Tracer (ban) Greymane  Azmodan↓↓ Abathur Alexstrasza Arthas↓ Dehaka↓ (ban) Kerrigan↑*   Hanzo (ban) Gul'dan Zarya** Auriel Blaze Yrel Maiev   Lunara Junkrat   Brightwing↑ E.T.C. (ban)   Malthael   Sgt.Hammer (ban) Kel'Thuzad    Deckard  Johanna↓   Ragnaros   Tychus Li-Ming   Kharazim Muradin↓   Thrall   Zul'jin Mephisto   Li Li↓ Stitches (ban)   Varian     Nazeebo↓   Rehgar↓ Varian         Orphea***   Stukov           Sylvanas               Zagara     *Moved from situational to generalist.
      **Moved from Fighter to Support
      ***Pure conjecture
      Low-tier generalists
      Tank Bruiser Fighter Stalker Marksman Mage Support Healer — Chen Gazlowe Valeera Falstad Chromie Medivh (ban)+ Lt. Morales   D.Va Murky   Valla Probius   Lúcio+     The Butcher            
      Situational picks (map, team composition, or counterpick)
      Tank Bruiser Fighter Stalker Marksman Mage Support Healer Cho'gall (ban) Leoric Illidan Nova — Cho'gall (ban) Tassadar Uther (ban) Tyrael Rexxar Xul Samuro     The Lost Vikings (ban)*   *Moved from Marksman to Support
       
      Meta heroes define the metagame. They are very often banned or picked right away, as they generally dictate the pace of most drafts and matches.
      Generalists form the core of your team and are generally picked after Meta picks have been distributed. They tend to work on most maps, and as part of and against most team compositions. Since this group includes most heroes, I elected to split it into three tiers. High-tier rankings are a result of performance (i.e. win rates) and popularity (i.e. pick and ban rates). This means that heroes with high win rates can be set in low tier; the opposite may also be true.
      Situational picks shine on specific maps or as part of specific team compositions.
      Our twenty-fourth Heroes of the Storm Meta Tier list for the month of November is here!