wow Exorsus' (Harsh) Reaction to Recent KJ Nerfs

[durdyenglish 298]

A whole two weeks to beat a mythic end boss? Oh no! WoW is broken!

Sheesh. Get a grip. Kil'jaeden could have stood for a month as far as I'm concerned, he should have been godlike. He's one of the most powerful entities in the Warcraft universe. 

I get that mechanics can seem broken because of their difficulty but I imagine Blizzard WANTS you to struggle immensely. If this boss got rolfstomped, it would be a complete disservice to the character.

[Nathex 8]

You expect a lot of complaining no matter what because this is of course the internet but i don't even get what they are complaining about. This is not nearly the first time something like this has happened. Anyone remember C'thun? This fight isn't even close to being the toughest or longest undefeated in WoW's history. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/16410201256

[Shamhouse 1]

8 hours ago, Dvanom said:

I think the difficulty shouldn't be changed. Just change the difficulty next patch or smth, but not on progression. If it's hard it is  a hell of an acomplishment to defeat KJ so you can be proud of yourselves. Exorsus kind of went "angry kid" mode but the frustration shouldn't wonder anyone. I would at least save the fixes for TOP10 Kills

When a boss is literally unkillable, that's a different story. The change was mandatory for even the top 2 guilds in the world to kill it. 655 pulls it took Method to finally down him, and that was only after hotfix. Think about that. 655 Fails. from the top guild in the world. Some-ting-wong

[Starym 3,779]

I'm not going to go too deep into the discussion, but I find people constantly mentioning C'thun to be fascinating. C'thun was the worst offender in exactly this type of thing - he was literally and completely impossible for anyone to kill for an incredibly long time and then Blizzard simply turned a switch and he was easy. Literally the first try after the hotfixes, Nihilum killed him. We were in the middle of the first try when we realized oh, this is actually not that hard, let's just pop flasks. And then he died. What a World First achievement - we managed to get the hotfixes before US guilds, hoo-ray. No one wants to win like that. Now obv KJ wasn't like that at all, I'm just saying don't ever use C'thun as an example of anything but a terribly tuned boss (I actually loved the actual boss design and fight itself, that red beam is still one of my favorites in wow!). Also Kael'thas.

[PatrickHenry 293]

3 hours ago, Prophet001 said:

They have a multitude of people working on this game. I don't understand why they can't tune the bosses?

Probably the same reason governments cant control the economy.  There's too many people, too many choices, too many ways to do things differently...  millions upon millions of choices and changes that beget other ones. 

I would go so far as to say it is literally impossible to figure all of that into a single encounter, and get it "right" the first time, if ever.

Edited July 25, 2017 by PatrickHenry

[InfernoRFU 117]

Guilds all in tunnel grind hardest difficulty new raid boss, beg for nerfs, beat raid boss, boss gets nerfs they were asking for, complain.

[Nathex 8]

I understand C'thun has his own issues that mad him unbeatable but what i'm talking is there are 20 bosses that took longer than Mythic Kil'jaden to down.

 

Blizzard has to strike a balance between tuning the fight to not be too easy or too hard but also with the Final boss of an instance they tend to also have to try to keep portions of the fight secret to keep the entire fight from being known before the live patch even drops. So the final bosses in some raids may be more difficult than intended and may need some post launch patches. It's happened many times before and i'm sure it will happen more in the future. Both Method and Exodus should be happy with their kills and the prestige it brings to their guilds.

[Valks 2,373]

44 minutes ago, Nathex said:

I understand C'thun has his own issues that mad him unbeatable but what i'm talking is there are 20 bosses that took longer than Mythic Kil'jaden to down.

That's because of a variety of reasons though - think about a boss in Molten Core compared to a boss in ToS. There was so much time wasted it was insane. Running back into the instance, running through instance, waiting for everybody to be ready, waiting for buffs to be distributed (single buffs, rather than greater buffs). Let's factor in AFK times for 40 people rather than 20 people. That's twice as many bio breaks, in theory. 

We now spawn outside instances, we have portals to get us back to bosses, we have buff food that can be put down for everyone, flasks that persist through death, no more buffing required. 

On top of that, let's look at how raid times have also changed. I wasn't anything special in vanilla as a player, but I did raid and did get into the majority of fights. There was so much time spent outside of raiding that was necessary to actually raid. Materials had to be gathered by someone, food was needed, potions, bandages, all of it. Someone had to get it and, despite some people having loads of gold, you still needed to gather stuff.

Don't forget things like in Molten Core when you needed to go to bloody Azshara every week to go and get the water for runes unless you had already hit revered which, guess what, we hadn't.

Things just took so much longer and it meant that you didn't raid for as long and you didn't pull the boss as many times in the times when you were raiding. This is the biggest reason why things stayed alive longer. Oh, also, stupid things like max pull counters and gating. 

[Nathex 8]

I understand what you are talking about with early vanilla respawn timers and yes those were annoying as hell to anyone that had to go through them but a lot of the bosses on that list are TBC and onwards when alot of that stuff was toned down. 

 

As for gathering materials for raids that has always been a part of raiding in and of it self and still is to this day. All of that was done before the raid time even began if your guild was even somewhat interested in raiding. So i have no idea why you are bringing that up as an excuse why other bosses in wow took longer to beat. And lets face it we are not talking a few days or weeks. We are talking 2 weeks Mythic Kil'jaden vs  a month to 2 months to beat a single boss in some other raids. So either all other previous expansion raiders did not put in the effort to clear content that raiders today do or there were actually harder bosses to beat in the past and people just want something to complain about on the internet.

[Valks 2,373]

25 minutes ago, Nathex said:

We are talking 2 weeks Mythic Kil'jaden vs  a month to 2 months to beat a single boss in some other raids. So either all other previous expansion raiders did not put in the effort to clear content that raiders today do or there were actually harder bosses to beat in the past and people just want something to complain about on the internet.

But time invested is the key here and it's what I was trying to highlight in my other post. Nowadays, they smash their heads against it until they get it. They take time off work specifically to do this, they schedule holidays. With how profitable streaming has become for some members of these guilds, they can spend more and more time preparing outside of raids and making sure they raid for as long as possible. 

Method is a huge organisation now and it allows people like Sco to completely focus on the task at hand when progressing. Things were probably a lot harder when he was still at his job at Bank of America (I think it was them). 

0 lights took like 2-3 months, right? Didn't stars and Paragon only wipe on it around 200 times? In less than a quarter of that time, we're seeing wipe counts nearing 1000. Isn't there a correlation here?

[Starym 3,779]

1 hour ago, Blainie said:

That's because of a variety of reasons though - think about a boss in Molten Core compared to a boss in ToS. There was so much time wasted it was insane. Running back into the instance, running through instance, waiting for everybody to be ready, waiting for buffs to be distributed (single buffs, rather than greater buffs). Let's factor in AFK times for 40 people rather than 20 people. That's twice as many bio breaks, in theory. 

We now spawn outside instances, we have portals to get us back to bosses, we have buff food that can be put down for everyone, flasks that persist through death, no more buffing required. 

On top of that, let's look at how raid times have also changed. I wasn't anything special in vanilla as a player, but I did raid and did get into the majority of fights. There was so much time spent outside of raiding that was necessary to actually raid. Materials had to be gathered by someone, food was needed, potions, bandages, all of it. Someone had to get it and, despite some people having loads of gold, you still needed to gather stuff.

Don't forget things like in Molten Core when you needed to go to bloody Azshara every week to go and get the water for runes unless you had already hit revered which, guess what, we hadn't.

Things just took so much longer and it meant that you didn't raid for as long and you didn't pull the boss as many times in the times when you were raiding. This is the biggest reason why things stayed alive longer. Oh, also, stupid things like max pull counters and gating. 

Oh god you just reminded my of AQ running back to C'thun. I am now having Vietnam-like flashbacks... DAMN YOUUUU

[Valks 2,373]

11 minutes ago, Starym said:

Oh god you just reminded my of AQ running back to C'thun. I am now having Vietnam-like flashbacks... DAMN YOUUUU

THE TANKS WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH

[InfernoRFU 117]

28 minutes ago, Starym said:

There was so much time spent outside of raiding that was necessary to actually raid. Materials had to be gathered by someone, food was needed, potions, bandages, all of it. Someone had to get it and, despite some people having loads of gold, you still needed to gather stuff.

Never. Forget.

[Valks 2,373]

19 minutes ago, Sawzorthn said:

Never. Forget.

The horror!

[Rror 3]

I have no complaint that the Boss was fixed or nerfed or what ever.  The top Guilds are entitled to their input, which should be taken seriously but in this case the complaint seems to be, "we worked hard and beat the boss with these poor designs or this difficulty, so now EVERYONE should have to do the same."  Personally I can understand their angst since they worked their asses off to get through but if it's unfairly set up then it's right and fair that it be fixed.  Not everyone has the availability of the top guilds in the world to accompany them through the content.  I believe the game was designed for lots of players, not the top guilds.

[Oxygen 446]

The C'thun reference was an obtuse example (the best, really) to show that sometimes, changes do need to happen for the bettering of the game's health.

In all cases, being the first, or trying to be, at any given thing means you'll be the first to experience the best - or worst - aspects of it. This weird effect is probably worsened by the professionalization of what was initially intended to be a hobby; a extremely serious approach is taken to something simple, made by devs with probably less time on their hands for testing than these players, and over a platform that has the convenient advantage of being modifiable. At least, we're not dealing with another Sinestra...

[Xenofaul 1]

11 hours ago, Daemon said:

I am not in an 'elite' guild but people here have no idea what they are talking about, complaining about cheesing mechanics. Mechanics have been cheesed since the dawn of time why do casuals get offended by it, clearly jelousy. And how am i troll? 

As far as I'm concerned, anyone that has to openly "cheese" content to clear it isn't a very good group of players.  Oooh World #1 after 700 wipes and ignoring AS MANY MECHANICS AS POSSIBLE.  Not really a great example of skill.

Let me let you in on a little secret.  They probably could have done it in much less wipes if they had good players in all those roles instead of UNDERGEARED ALTS.  Oh man, you mean the boss lives for another week while the raids gear gets up to snuff, what a horrid idea in an MMO.

Another thing, gear and underperforming alts aside, they probably could have done it in much less time if they didn't sit for 14 hours straight wiping on a boss.  Sure, best caliber players in the world, doesn't beat human psychology.  I'm sure they took breaks, but if they were serious about being "professional gamers" they'd probably spend more time with a sports psychologist to figure out how they could improve their performance besides just sitting there bashing there face against a wall making 0 progress for 3 days in a row.

Waiting for the snide remarks about e-sports psychology, because clearly you understand more about pro-gaming than I do.

[Dvanom 34]

15 hours ago, Shamhouse said:

When a boss is literally unkillable, that's a different story. The change was mandatory for even the top 2 guilds in the world to kill it. 655 pulls it took Method to finally down him, and that was only after hotfix. Think about that. 655 Fails. from the top guild in the world. Some-ting-wong

Yeah this hotfix was needed but the hotfixes after Exorsus kill were not cool. Two guilds proved KJ is killable so why the hell you give the boss a 5% HP nerf? It took away the glory the two guilds got

 

Also it's the highest you can go in PvE, doesn't this mean it has to be really hard and demanding great contribution?

Edited July 26, 2017 by Dvanom

[AgentFranks 1]

Where there might be some truth in the overall message, I think there was a better way to go about saying what was said.  I'm not hating on anyone, just an opinion from the outside looking in.

[AgentFranks 1]

11 hours ago, Xenofaul said:

As far as I'm concerned, anyone that has to openly "cheese" content to clear it isn't a very good group of players.  Oooh World #1 after 700 wipes and ignoring AS MANY MECHANICS AS POSSIBLE.  Not really a great example of skill.

Let me let you in on a little secret.  They probably could have done it in much less wipes if they had good players in all those roles instead of UNDERGEARED ALTS.  Oh man, you mean the boss lives for another week while the raids gear gets up to snuff, what a horrid idea in an MMO.

Another thing, gear and underperforming alts aside, they probably could have done it in much less time if they didn't sit for 14 hours straight wiping on a boss.  Sure, best caliber players in the world, doesn't beat human psychology.  I'm sure they took breaks, but if they were serious about being "professional gamers" they'd probably spend more time with a sports psychologist to figure out how they could improve their performance besides just sitting there bashing there face against a wall making 0 progress for 3 days in a row.

Waiting for the snide remarks about e-sports psychology, because clearly you understand more about pro-gaming than I do.

e-sports psychology. 10 years ago you would have laughed about that.  Now, it's a thing.  I never thought about incorporating that into top guild performance, but I think that suggestion has merit.

[Valks 2,373]

17 hours ago, Xenofaul said:

Waiting for the snide remarks about e-sports psychology, because clearly you understand more about pro-gaming than I do.

It's a very different thing to use ESP in WoW than the games it is currently used in. Trying to cater to 20+ players (rosters can be as higher with subs) with ESP is an incredibly difficult and costly task. For a guild such as Method, this is definitely possible and can be subsidised from their other team's earnings, but WoW is a money-loser. They aren't making any money from it on the PvP side, let alone the PvE one. To invest even more money will never, ever happen, since there is no return on it. 

For a guild like Exorsus that operates as a guild with streamers rather than an organisation in other games also, this cost will never be considered. You would need multiple ESPs in order to get the task done and they would need to be paid to listen in on progress all day. 

For something like League, the teams are playing at an earnings surplus and it makes sense to employ ESPs for their teams. They have nutritionists, chefs, everything - all dependent on the money they make as a team. Most importantly, you are dealing with 5 players and possibly 1-2 subs. Same goes for OW and its 6 member teams (Rogue, for example, has an ESP I believe and nutritionist) - they have constant tournaments to compete in, the World Cup is also going on now. The earnings aren't the highest, but it's far better than WoW right now.

Also keep in mind that only the minority are actual "pro-gamers" in WoW. Plenty of top raiders in Exorsus/Method etc. have full time jobs. They just take time off at progress to play constantly, then return to their job. Before Method grew to what it is now, Sco worked a full time job in Finance.

[Pharmacist 5]

THE STRUGGLE IS REAL!!!

[Daemon 11]

On 7/26/2017 at 1:44 AM, Xenofaul said:

As far as I'm concerned, anyone that has to openly "cheese" content to clear it isn't a very good group of players.  Oooh World #1 after 700 wipes and ignoring AS MANY MECHANICS AS POSSIBLE.  Not really a great example of skill.

Let me let you in on a little secret.  They probably could have done it in much less wipes if they had good players in all those roles instead of UNDERGEARED ALTS.  Oh man, you mean the boss lives for another week while the raids gear gets up to snuff, what a horrid idea in an MMO.

Another thing, gear and underperforming alts aside, they probably could have done it in much less time if they didn't sit for 14 hours straight wiping on a boss.  Sure, best caliber players in the world, doesn't beat human psychology.  I'm sure they took breaks, but if they were serious about being "professional gamers" they'd probably spend more time with a sports psychologist to figure out how they could improve their performance besides just sitting there bashing there face against a wall making 0 progress for 3 days in a row.

Waiting for the snide remarks about e-sports psychology, because clearly you understand more about pro-gaming than I do.

You think these guys cant play their classes the best? This is one of the best guilds in the world we are talking about. Undergeared alts? Since when is 930 ilvl undergeared, these guys split run 7-8 raids a week you think they are undergeared? I dont think you have much idea of what you are talking about. Why would you make the raid harder for yourself by not taking soak classes when you have the resources at your disposal. You have the mentality of a casual who doesnt care about being the best, these guys dont, and thats why they are the best in the world at what they do.

[MrEdren 114]

On 7/25/2017 at 2:42 PM, Blainie said:

That's because of a variety of reasons though - think about a boss in Molten Core compared to a boss in ToS. There was so much time wasted it was insane. Running back into the instance, running through instance, waiting for everybody to be ready, waiting for buffs to be distributed (single buffs, rather than greater buffs). Let's factor in AFK times for 40 people rather than 20 people. That's twice as many bio breaks, in theory. 

We now spawn outside instances, we have portals to get us back to bosses, we have buff food that can be put down for everyone, flasks that persist through death, no more buffing required. 

On top of that, let's look at how raid times have also changed. I wasn't anything special in vanilla as a player, but I did raid and did get into the majority of fights. There was so much time spent outside of raiding that was necessary to actually raid. Materials had to be gathered by someone, food was needed, potions, bandages, all of it. Someone had to get it and, despite some people having loads of gold, you still needed to gather stuff.

Don't forget things like in Molten Core when you needed to go to bloody Azshara every week to go and get the water for runes unless you had already hit revered which, guess what, we hadn't.

Things just took so much longer and it meant that you didn't raid for as long and you didn't pull the boss as many times in the times when you were raiding. This is the biggest reason why things stayed alive longer. Oh, also, stupid things like max pull counters and gating. 

You mean you DIDN'T enjoy farming grave moss for Loatheb?

[Valks 2,373]

1 hour ago, MrEdren said:

You mean you DIDN'T enjoy farming grave moss for Loatheb?

Good old greater protection potions! The shadow ones were just stupid, honestly. Ridiculous material to include at the time, it was way more difficult to get than the others