Starym

Exorsus' (Harsh) Reaction to Recent KJ Nerfs

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With the most recent hotfixes bringing in significant nerfs to Mythic Kil'jaeden, only a day after Exorsus' World 2nd kill, the guild's twitter had some words to share with the WoW devs, and the encounter designers in particular:

We'd already heard a fair amount of complaints from both Method and Exorsus previously, on the state Kil'jaeden was in for the first week and more, but these hotfixes do seem to indicate that KJ was overtuned even in Blizzard's estimation (this, in addition to the 10+ undocumented nerfs he had already received prior to Method's World First kill). We've also heard that there will be a big post coming where all the issues they've had with ToS will be discussed by the GM, Alveona:

 

What do you think about the situation, are Exorsus being too harsh on the devs or do they have a point?

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Perhaps Exorsus should have paid attention to the bottom part of this label on their game box:

Image result for game experience may change during online play

The entitlement displayed by these players is mind boggling. Raid boss changes are about as old as the game is, dating back to C'thun days (and probably before, but that's all I can recall), and it seems like some self-important microdrama like this emerges with every new raid tier. It takes a special kind of special to somehow think that Blizzard isn't making these changes in the best interests of the game. The game these very players love and have devoted an unreasonable amount of time playing. Just, what do they feel like they're losing out on, exactly? You got your kill. All is well in the world.

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34 minutes ago, Oxygen said:

Perhaps Exorsus should have paid attention to the bottom part of this label on their game box:

Image result for game experience may change during online play

The entitlement displayed by these players is mind boggling. Raid boss changes are about as old as the game is, dating back to C'thun days (and probably before, but that's all I can recall), and it seems like some self-important microdrama like this emerges with every new raid tier. It takes a special kind of special to somehow think that Blizzard isn't making these changes in the best interests of the game. The game these very players love and have devoted an unreasonable amount of time playing. Just, what do they feel like they're losing out on, exactly? You got your kill. All is well in the world.

Maybe you should wipe on a broken boss and not even get past the first phase for 14 hours a day and see how you feel about it. The raiding scene is nothing like it was in the old days, it is completely reasonable for a tier to be finished in 2 resets. The boss was clearly not tested properly, it was not even remotely possible to kill and Blizzard should not allow that to happen, imagine how demotivating it is to wipe endlessly on a broken boss. 

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I'll say the same thing I did on Twitter on this - they should have waited for the first kill of each region. We have 2 CN guilds pushing hard in 3rd and 4th trying to get the kill on KJ and the KR guild looking to get their region first. 

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1 hour ago, Oxygen said:

Perhaps Exorsus should have paid attention to the bottom part of this label on their game box:

Image result for game experience may change during online play

The entitlement displayed by these players is mind boggling. Raid boss changes are about as old as the game is, dating back to C'thun days (and probably before, but that's all I can recall), and it seems like some self-important microdrama like this emerges with every new raid tier. It takes a special kind of special to somehow think that Blizzard isn't making these changes in the best interests of the game. The game these very players love and have devoted an unreasonable amount of time playing. Just, what do they feel like they're losing out on, exactly? You got your kill. All is well in the world.

I'm glad you mentioned C'thun. The comparison is quite apt, actually - both bosses were literally unbeatable until Blizzard took action to fix the fights. However, C'thun released in 2006, that sort of thing would be unacceptable in today's raiding environment. There's a reasonable expectation for a game not to be broken, and I have no idea how you can call that entitlement. 

If the top raiding guilds in the world say that a fight is unbeatable, I believe that it is. Saying that they're just complaining that it's hard is ridiculous - they have been raiding since the days of C'thun. They know what hard looks like, and what broken looks like. Better than you, better than me, and better than Blizzard, who doesn't test these fights on PTR - and understandably so, not to ruin the mystery of the mythic endboss - but at the same time, the possibility that an untested boss is broken is very real, and I don't know why people have to hate on the top guilds for saying so. Jealousy, perhaps? I have no idea. 

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if anything, I'd be happy if I were them, they can proudly say that they beat it on mythic before the nerf

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Blizzard needs to start putting in some real effort to make sure raids are properly tested and ready to go at launch, especially this far into the games life. If any of you have spent a good amount of time in tomb you'll have noticed how unfinished it seems. Some of the bosses seem really half assed and quickly thrown together, unlike nighthold where each boss had an interesting and unique design. Some bosses like maiden, host, inquisition. Seems so half assed. And this mythic end of things is no better. In the past mythic has always meant new and difficult mechanics that changed the way you did the fight. In tomb it just means everything does double damage and theres more of it. More adds spawn, more hydra shots, more glaives.

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It's funny that people complain more about one boss over another. Xavius was simple on Mythic difficulty (well under tuned.) To all of these guilds, however, he was a less important entity to kill than Kil'jaeden. People are more drawn to this raid boss, and they expected him to remain hard.

What cutting edge raiders don't understand is testing. They know their job, and they know it well: kill the boss. The tuning and testing happens internally, and it has to. That's the whole point to a QA team. Blizzard doesn't have these raiders on their QA team. Slootbag and several others have been offered the job, but they turn it down because they're not ready yet. The QA team is far better (and readily available) than it has ever been before, and they're improving. Given more time, perhaps more cutting edge raiders will slowly join the ranks at Blizzard Entertainment and bring more raiding knowledge to the scene than Blizzard currently has. Hell, maybe we'll even see less cheesing and more mechanical behavior like Siegecrafter Blackfuse and Paragons of the Klaxxi (pre-nerfs).

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1 hour ago, enviousmtg said:

I'm glad you mentioned C'thun. The comparison is quite apt, actually - both bosses were literally unbeatable until Blizzard took action to fix the fights. However, C'thun released in 2006, that sort of thing would be unacceptable in today's raiding environment. There's a reasonable expectation for a game not to be broken, and I have no idea how you can call that entitlement. 

If the top raiding guilds in the world say that a fight is unbeatable, I believe that it is. Saying that they're just complaining that it's hard is ridiculous - they have been raiding since the days of C'thun. They know what hard looks like, and what broken looks like. Better than you, better than me, and better than Blizzard, who doesn't test these fights on PTR - and understandably so, not to ruin the mystery of the mythic endboss - but at the same time, the possibility that an untested boss is broken is very real, and I don't know why people have to hate on the top guilds for saying so. Jealousy, perhaps? I have no idea. 

It's not so much as them saying it, it is how it is said. Granted most of these comments are out of frustration, but then again when you really get to the point of the matter all of this stress is self-inflicted just to be first. As SMOrcMan stated, they should instead feel good knowing they beat it before the heavy nerfs.

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2 hours ago, Oxlotus said:

It's funny that people complain more about one boss over another. Xavius was simple on Mythic difficulty (well under tuned.) To all of these guilds, however, he was a less important entity to kill than Kil'jaeden. People are more drawn to this raid boss, and they expected him to remain hard.

What cutting edge raiders don't understand is testing. They know their job, and they know it well: kill the boss. The tuning and testing happens internally, and it has to. That's the whole point to a QA team. Blizzard doesn't have these raiders on their QA team. Slootbag and several others have been offered the job, but they turn it down because they're not ready yet. The QA team is far better (and readily available) than it has ever been before, and they're improving. Given more time, perhaps more cutting edge raiders will slowly join the ranks at Blizzard Entertainment and bring more raiding knowledge to the scene than Blizzard currently has. Hell, maybe we'll even see less cheesing and more mechanical behavior like Siegecrafter Blackfuse and Paragons of the Klaxxi (pre-nerfs).

My favorite is when they stack 6 of one class in a 20 man raid and think they're not cheesing still.  Pretty sure the QA team didnt have 6 rogues in mind when they made the encounter.  Maybe think outside the box a little bit and have players be good on real classes instead of third string alts that do 10% less than their counterparts. 

"Classes feel balanced" - Quoted from another thread via interview with I THINK Exorsus.   Really? Then why do you have zero mages and 25% of the raid as one class.  If you think the "top players" in these guilds have perfectly performing players, they don't.  A majority of them are good sure, but I PROMISE you that regardless of whatever skill they think they have, they don't play 100% of classes to the best of their ability.   Watch the kill vids and watch the difference between a main rogue and an alt rogue, and then try to lecture the public about how the encounter itself was the problem the whole time. 

Get off your high horse and stop cheesing content and complaining about it. 

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I think the difficulty shouldn't be changed. Just change the difficulty next patch or smth, but not on progression. If it's hard it is  a hell of an acomplishment to defeat KJ so you can be proud of yourselves. Exorsus kind of went "angry kid" mode but the frustration shouldn't wonder anyone. I would at least save the fixes for TOP10 Kills

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56 minutes ago, Xenofaul said:

My favorite is when they stack 6 of one class in a 20 man raid and think they're not cheesing still.  Pretty sure the QA team didnt have 6 rogues in mind when they made the encounter.  Maybe think outside the box a little bit and have players be good on real classes instead of third string alts that do 10% less than their counterparts. 

"Classes feel balanced" - Quoted from another thread via interview with I THINK Exorsus.   Really? Then why do you have zero mages and 25% of the raid as one class.  If you think the "top players" in these guilds have perfectly performing players, they don't.  A majority of them are good sure, but I PROMISE you that regardless of whatever skill they think they have, they don't play 100% of classes to the best of their ability.   Watch the kill vids and watch the difference between a main rogue and an alt rogue, and then try to lecture the public about how the encounter itself was the problem the whole time. 

Get off your high horse and stop cheesing content and complaining about it. 

Balanced classes doesn't mean they're all equally good. If ever spec did the same dps in every situation, every spec had the same mobility, utility, self healing then the game would be dull. You don't seem to understand they're doing this at the VERY highest edge. Doing mythic content. They stacked rogues cause of their cheezy mitigation and their amazing ability to soak the swirls on kiljaedan. You'll notice there were a lot less rogues on all the other mythic kills the guilds have been doing. If you watched the kill video you'll actually notice how much less dps the rogues were doing then the warriors, boomkins and warlock. Even though the average ilvl for the group is close.

WHEN YOU'RE DOING CONTENT WITH AN OVERALL UNDERGEARED GROUP YOU TAKE EVERY SMALL ADVANTAGE YOU CAN GET. When the bulk of the guilds start to do mythic KJ in about 2 months and their average ilvl is 930 you will see that EVERY spec is capable at doing that fight. Its just when you're all going in 910-920 a rogue is better then a mage. Doesn't mean the mage is shit though.

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I think they have a lot of pent up frustration and sarcasm that isn't helping their point, but nonetheless, I sympathise with them to an extent but there is only so much internal testing that Blizzard could possibly do and try to plan ahead for all the classes, specs and available talents in the game while keeping encounters challenging while mechanically interesting, but as we all know, soak soak soaky McSoak for most of the bosses, and the numbers in WoW are so ridiculous that I wouldn't be surprised they were relying on top guild's progress to tune out a bit more because how do you calculate billions upon billions of numbers in a single tests accurately to tune? 

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6 hours ago, SMOrcMan said:

if anything, I'd be happy if I were them, they can proudly say that they beat it on mythic before the nerf

I actually came here to say this. Yes okay they had to work harder than other groups who will later attempt it but in many ways they already are with all the pre grinding ap and gear farm to even attempt to be in the top world first rankings. So, to that end to beat it before the nerf is really an accomplishment. One thing I reference a lot to friends is the molten core anniversary raid a couple years back. Initially it was awful, it was really over tuned, and was all but impossible. With my group we spent more hours than I would admit grinding it until we beat it. Then the next day there was a nerf to it. People were mad but I was saying "guys we did it when it was harder". It made my mount feel like more of an accomplishment. Yes others have it and can go "oh yeah I did that event too" and I can always flex my internet wow muscles (because no one else in real life would care) and say "yeah but i beat it pre nerf".

So yeah I understand their frustrations in some ways but I feel the could have taken a different path and made themselves seem more awesome.

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Heeey, entitled (whatever the Russian version of a snowflake is - vodkaflake?) pro gamers - just because you don't like how something is done, doesn't mean that it wasn't done according to plan.  Maybe they wanted to see how long it would take you shut-ins to beat it as designed so they could get an idea of how to down-tune it for everyone else?  

Whiners.

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4 hours ago, MarcHethrusWaters said:

Balanced classes doesn't mean they're all equally good. If ever spec did the same dps in every situation, every spec had the same mobility, utility, self healing then the game would be dull. You don't seem to understand they're doing this at the VERY highest edge. Doing mythic content. They stacked rogues cause of their cheezy mitigation and their amazing ability to soak the swirls on kiljaedan. You'll notice there were a lot less rogues on all the other mythic kills the guilds have been doing. If you watched the kill video you'll actually notice how much less dps the rogues were doing then the warriors, boomkins and warlock. Even though the average ilvl for the group is close.

WHEN YOU'RE DOING CONTENT WITH AN OVERALL UNDERGEARED GROUP YOU TAKE EVERY SMALL ADVANTAGE YOU CAN GET. When the bulk of the guilds start to do mythic KJ in about 2 months and their average ilvl is 930 you will see that EVERY spec is capable at doing that fight. Its just when you're all going in 910-920 a rogue is better then a mage. Doesn't mean the mage is shit though.

For most mythic guilds, their average ilvl is 930 already if not more. 

 

5 hours ago, Xenofaul said:

My favorite is when they stack 6 of one class in a 20 man raid and think they're not cheesing still.  Pretty sure the QA team didnt have 6 rogues in mind when they made the encounter.  Maybe think outside the box a little bit and have players be good on real classes instead of third string alts that do 10% less than their counterparts. 

"Classes feel balanced" - Quoted from another thread via interview with I THINK Exorsus.   Really? Then why do you have zero mages and 25% of the raid as one class.  If you think the "top players" in these guilds have perfectly performing players, they don't.  A majority of them are good sure, but I PROMISE you that regardless of whatever skill they think they have, they don't play 100% of classes to the best of their ability.   Watch the kill vids and watch the difference between a main rogue and an alt rogue, and then try to lecture the public about how the encounter itself was the problem the whole time. 

Get off your high horse and stop cheesing content and complaining about it. 

You my friend are a casual and have no idea what you are talking about. Classes are pretty balanced this tier with the exception of Arms warriors, sub rogues and boomies. Rogues are exceptionally good at doing mechanics and can take huge amounts of damage. They have been used extensively this expansion in every raid just for that fact, ToS is no different. Why on earth would you take any less than 5 rogues on KJ if you have them in your roster, these guys are going for world first, why would they make the boss harder for themselves? There is no rulebook that says , you are not allowed to cheese any mechanics. These guilds will do whatever it takes to get world firsts (with the exception of exploiting bugs in the raid) , they dont give a damn what plebs like you think about the morals of the high end raiding scene. If you dont like when people cheese mechanics then stick to heroic raiding cause thats probably whats best for you. And btw, that Q&A was with Method not Exorsus.

Edited by Luthixx
Language is entirely unnecessary.

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10 minutes ago, Daemon said:

For most mythic guilds, their average ilvl is 930 already if not more. 

 

You my friend are a fucking casual and have no idea what you are talking about. Classes are pretty balanced this tier with the exception of Arms warriors, sub rogues and boomies. Rogues are exceptionally good at doing mechanics and can take huge amounts of damage. They have been used extensively this expansion in every raid just for that fact, ToS is no different. Why on earth would you take any less than 5 rogues on KJ if you have them in your roster, these guys are going for world first, why the fuck would they make the boss harder for themselves? There is no rulebook that says , you are not allowed to cheese any mechanics. These guilds will do whatever it takes to get world firsts (with the exception of exploiting bugs in the raid) , they dont give a shit what plebs like you think about the morals of the high end raiding scene. If you dont like when people cheese mechanics then stick to heroic raiding cause thats probably whats best for you. And btw, that Q&A was with Method not Exorsus.

And your'e an e-peen waggling troll with zero credibility.

Which 'elite' guild are you in that you're so mortally offended by opinions on a message board?  Don't worry, I'll figure it out if you don't tell us.

Edited by MrEdren

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11 minutes ago, Daemon said:

(with the exception of exploiting bugs in the raid)

Might want to check your history.

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20 minutes ago, MrEdren said:

 

And your'e an e-peen waggling troll with zero credibility.

Which 'elite' guild are you in that you're so mortally offended by opinions on a message board?  Don't worry, I'll figure it out if you don't tell us.

I am not in an 'elite' guild but people here have no idea what they are talking about, complaining about cheesing mechanics. Mechanics have been cheesed since the dawn of time why do casuals get offended by it, clearly jelousy. And how am i troll? 

Edited by Daemon

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10 minutes ago, Daemon said:

I am not in an 'elite' guild but people here have no idea what they are talking about

Neither do you, it seems.

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1 minute ago, MrEdren said:

Neither do you, it seems.

Sure mate i have no idea what im talking about, git gud casual

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They have a multitude of people working on this game. I don't understand why they can't tune the bosses? Also, I can sympathize with grinding a boss out and then having it nerfed. That seems a bit undermining. The boss would effectively get nerfed through multiple lockouts with increases in gear.

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17 minutes ago, Daemon said:

Sure mate i have no idea what im talking about, git gud casual

Still waiting for any sort of a supporting argument.

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3 minutes ago, Prophet001 said:

They have a multitude of people working on this game. I don't understand why they can't tune the bosses? Also, I can sympathize with grinding a boss out and then having it nerfed. That seems a bit undermining. The boss would effectively get nerfed through multiple lockouts with increases in gear.

You can't really tune up a boss fight after it's been released - do that and you risk stonewalling tons of guilds that may not be up to the increased challenge (or would require a recruitment drive/roster revamp).  When they release something that's ultra-hard (which, come on, a mythic final boss should be), they get to see exactly what aspects of the fight are problematic and might need incremental (or more) adjustments.  

Suppose I should just git gud though.

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24 minutes ago, Daemon said:

Sure mate i have no idea what im talking about, git gud casual

I bet you're one of those charmers who list groups asking for (genitalia references).  Must be something in the water over there.

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      [FORUM] Giveaway 1 - [Closed] All winners for G1 have been contacted by PM. [FORUM] Giveaway 2 - [Closed] All winners for G2 have been contacted by PM. [FORUM] Will go live 22/06 [FORUM] Will go live 22/06 [FORUM] Will go live 23/06 While the giveaway-specific rules are listed above, we also have a general set of rules that apply to every giveaway. You can find them listed here.
      We wish any entrants the best of luck in each giveaway they enter and hope that we'll see many of you enjoying the beta shortly after! For any questions you might have about this post or the giveaways, you can ask them in this thread and I will do my best to answer them promptly.
    • By Stan
      Save up to 25% on select character services during the latest sale! The offer is available through June 24.
      Earlier today, Blizzard upgraded inactive accounts to WoD and gave them free game time. You can find more details here. You can now save 25% on the following services:
      Appearance Change Character Transfer Faction Change Name Change Race Change Blizzard Shop [US] // Blizzard Shop [EU]

    • By Stan
      Inactive accounts received free license upgrades to Warlords of Draenor and game time today. Reactivated accounts will remain active through June 24.
      Update: All inactive WoW accounts received free game time as part of Blizzard's ongoing "Welcome Back Weekend" promotion. You can now save up to 25% on select character services as well.
      Blizzard (Source)
      GET BACK IN THE FIGHT
      Battle for Azeroth™ fast approaches and you're needed back on the front lines. This weekend only, we're upgrading all inactive WoW accounts to allow you full access to the game and all your characters without a subscription*.
      Rejoin your guild, rally your comrades and get back in the fight.
      *Offers available through June 24, 2018. Player is responsible for any online connection fees. Game access will be granted at the last expansion purchased, or Warlords of Draenor, whichever is greater.
      Redditor pikmin264 spotted that inactive accounts are now able to play the game up to Warlords of Draenor. We checked out an old EU account from 2012 and can confirm his findings.