Starym

Exorsus GM Extensively Talks About ToS

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As promised, Alveona, Exorsus' guild master, has posted his opinions on the Tomb of Sargeras Mythic race on reddit. He goes really in-depth not only on the hot topic of Kil'jaeden, but the rest of the raid as well - from the difficulty curve, to what he thinks went wrong with the instance, hardcore raiding mythbusting and more.

As you can imagine he's not too thrilled with the whole thing, but the post is well explained and we can get a feeling of what their frustrations on the boss(es) were much better. It's definitely worth a read if you're interested in the perspective of top-end raiders and in what tuning of a new raid looks like in the extremely early days of a new (Mythic) tier. Here are some highlights from the post:

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I. Difficulty Curve:

7. Kil'jaeden. Boss received 3 waves of nerfs before actually being killable. Apart from nerfs, boss had some very serious bugs, leading to very slow progression. I’ve seen a lot of comments like “get good” or “you forgot what is challenge”. Of course I know that 80% of such posts is just trolling, however to make sure everyone understands what was happening - https://puu.sh/wSQN3/ac457ff435.webm . Good luck dodging such things. This bug ruined ~8% of our pulls. Now talking about nerfs – we barely have seen boss pre-first nerf, which reduced Armageddon damage, however this nerf itself didn’t really helped a lot. Until 10th of July getting to second phase was really hard (best way was to avoid tanking mob and push the boss asap). Transition phase itself had crazy timings, leading to knockback at the same time as Armageddon. Not to mention “Focused Dreadflame” damage was around 30m, meaning even if you’re splitting it with 9 persons with 20% versatility it’s still ~ 3.5m damage to each person, which is ridiculous, unless you’re immuning it. However after the second batch of nerfs (Adds hp nerf, Focused Dreadflame damage halved , 2 less Armageddon zones, knockback distance reduced, timings on all phases tuned to be more realistic) we’ve started making some real progression on the fight. The last, but bot least was damage on last phase from “Darkness of a Thousand Souls”, it has been nerfed by 40%, to make sure it’s possible to stay alive on last phase without bringing 6 healers.

 

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II. What’s went wrong with ToS?

3. Immunity stacking. Half of ToS encounters are way easier if you stack immunity classes (some of them are not even possible before some nerfs without such stacking). Soaking different zones, removing debuffs from you, ignoring some abilities. That’s something that has been a thing all the time, however in ToS it’s just came up to a new level, which is a very bad practice. Why such issues came up this time? I have no idea to be honest.

...

Talking about “why are you blaming Blizzard”, “stop your harsh comments” etc posts, I’m not writing all of this to blame, I really hope such info can help them to avoid making same mistakes twice, and I’m pretty polite, from my point of view. As a dedicated fan of a game I’m only interested in WoW PvE raiding scene to become more and more popular and attractive.

 

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III. Some hardcore raiding mythbusting

3. “Back in the days progression took 2 months and now they’re whining after x days of progression on a boss/raid overall”. You all should realize you can’t compare current situation with those old days, every top guild is running 6-7 splitruns and trying to gear up everyone to best possible gear asap, creating special addons for the bosses and wasting some enormous amount of time per day, which all were not a thing before. Fun thing is If we’re talking about Fallen Avatar, for example, average raid ilvl for top 2 kills were 929-930, with FA itself dropping 930 ilvl items (yes, it’s a bit inaccurate due to 2 legendaries and weapon, but still). So for example 1 more reset of a Mythic reclear will not increase your dps dramatically (unless you’re super lucky for titanforged relics), since you’ve got almost all necessary items in heroic splits / previous mythic clears.

Be sure to check out the whole thing for better context and even more info.

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Finally, a nice post to shut up all the people comparing Legion raiding to vanilla and BC, giving Exorsus grief for 'complaining' the boss was too challenging (you guys dont know what a challenge really is), and also to all the people complaining that they are 'cheesing' mechanics with good soak classes. Some people just dont appreciate the effort these guys put into this game, and this tier. Its already demoralizing enough to lose out to world first, but then to see all these comments giving grief to Exorsus for the things i listed above is really pathetic to say the least. You guys think the GM just 'complains' after finishing a tier for the sake of it? Of course not, he is only trying to help Blizzard do their best in the future to ensure broken bosses like Mythic KJ dont happen again.

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4 hours ago, Daemon said:

Finally, a nice post to shut up all the people comparing Legion raiding to vanilla and BC, giving Exorsus grief for 'complaining' the boss was too challenging (you guys dont know what a challenge really is), and also to all the people complaining that they are 'cheesing' mechanics with good soak classes. Some people just dont appreciate the effort these guys put into this game, and this tier. Its already demoralizing enough to lose out to world first, but then to see all these comments giving grief to Exorsus for the things i listed above is really pathetic to say the least. You guys think the GM just 'complains' after finishing a tier for the sake of it? Of course not, he is only trying to help Blizzard do their best in the future to ensure broken bosses like Mythic KJ dont happen again.

I agree, this is a really a good feedback at developers and designers and lets hope/pray this will increase the quality for untested encounters.

But i have another pov, if this post should "shut up" the people. In my opinion there is a reason why some people said "don't complain about difficulty, it should not be easy at all". The problem is, that Exsorus and Method were complaining and instead of giving a proper feedback (which is understandable due to progress and not giving a hint to other combatants). If there is no proper justification, then this will lead to such statements. Look, i absolutely understand that it is frustrating to fight a broken encounter and wipe over and over again. But what is Method and Exsorsus expecting if they tweet complains? The reaction of the community was predictable and they have to accept (and ignore) such statements.

And now i'd like to defend the work of developers and designers of Blizzard (and no, i'm absolutely not a fanboy). So again: what are these top-raiding-guilds expecting? How many % of WoW-Players will ever see the mythic fight of KJ? How can someone blame the developers and designers for not investing that much time in such an ecounter? I really wish myself back to the days without that difficluty smashing. With more time for developers to introduce fights like Lady Vashj, Kael'thas, Illidan and so on.

As a conclusion if someone is interested on my pov: cut off these first kill race. That doesn't improve my (and approximately 99% of the players) quality of raiding. If there are bugs and broken mechanics in such fights, accept it or let it be.

 

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I'm more annoyed at their kneejerk reaction. They are one of the very best raiding guilds in the world and help represent the hardcore WoW raiding scene. Blizzard messes up once in god knows how many years, and they react like that. Doesn't paint a very good picture if you ask me.

I'm glad that they sat down and had a more professional talk about what happened though. Good luck to them in Antorus, and hopefully Blizzard have learned from their mistakes.

Edited by Maruken
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2 hours ago, Maruken said:

I'm more annoyed at their kneejerk reaction. They are one of the very best raiding guilds in the world and help represent the hardcore WoW raiding scene. Blizzard messes up once in god knows how many years, and they react like that. Doesn't paint a very good picture if you ask me.

I'm glad that they sat down and had a more professional talk about what happened though. Good luck to them in Antorus, and hopefully Blizzard have learned from their mistakes.

Yeah they act like whiny kids.

Seeing KJ survive so long is nice imo.

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Method got him what, 9 days before you described him as 'killable'

He was therefore killable

Cry into your vodka and accept that you aren't as great as you think.

Edited by MrEdren
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13 minutes ago, MrEdren said:

Method got him what, 9 days before you described him as 'killable'

He was therefore killable

Cry into your vodka and accept that you aren't as great as you think.

He was referring to all the hotfixes before Method killed him, there were 3 huge un-documented waves changes to the fight before Method's kill. You can read them all here https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/32075-method-wf-tos-interview/.

5 hours ago, Maruken said:

I'm more annoyed at their kneejerk reaction. They are one of the very best raiding guilds in the world and help represent the hardcore WoW raiding scene. Blizzard messes up once in god knows how many years, and they react like that. Doesn't paint a very good picture if you ask me.

I'm glad that they sat down and had a more professional talk about what happened though. Good luck to them in Antorus, and hopefully Blizzard have learned from their mistakes.

While I agree it was a kneejerk reaction this is FAR from Blizzard's first screwup in years in terms of the race/tuning. Basically every single Mythic only endboss (and a looot of Mythic bosses in general) are full of bugs and poor tuning when the WF guilds get to them. So I feel like KJ was like the final straw or something like that, it always happens every tier, just not for as long and as massive as KJ and both guilds that had to experience it kinda just threw their hands up in frustration (where throwing their hands up = posting on twitter :D )

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32 minutes ago, Starym said:

He was referring to all the hotfixes before Method killed him, there were 3 huge un-documented waves changes to the fight before Method's kill. You can read them all here https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/32075-method-wf-tos-interview/.

While I agree it was a kneejerk reaction this is FAR from Blizzard's first screwup in years in terms of the race/tuning. Basically every single Mythic only endboss (and a looot of Mythic bosses in general) are full of bugs and poor tuning when the WF guilds get to them. So I feel like KJ was like the final straw or something like that, it always happens every tier, just not for as long and as massive as KJ and both guilds that had to experience it kinda just threw their hands up in frustration (where throwing their hands up = posting on twitter :D )

I guess I'm not really sure why this is unexpected - they don't allow external testing of Mythic endbosses, and IIRC they've really never allowed for the final boss of any raid (see also: C'thunkillable).  Not to dismiss it as a nonissue, but I don't know how much they can really do in-house.  I'm also still not convinced that they aren't aware of the issues and just using them to create fixes for larger (read: non world first) consumption.

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More that anything it just sounds like they are angry cause they got second and not first and they want something to blame. Method made a few comments on the difficulty and then just let it go. Exorsus needs just be happy that they cleared the content and got the world second and move on. 

Edited by Nathex
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7 hours ago, Maruken said:

They are one of the very best raiding guilds in the world and help represent the hardcore WoW raiding scene. 

"best" is objective. See those raid schedules? 

The best description i ever read about these "top guilds" their unpaid alpha testers.

I think it would of been hilarious to not nerf it for a length of time. Wait for a bunch of guilds to be on equal footing then announce "nerfs" next week and when servers will be back online and see who can kill him first. 

That be a race...100 guilds around the same ilevel knowing the nerf is in and the raid is open at X:XX o'clock.  It would be hilarious to see one of those crazy good 6 hour a week guilds beat these "top" guilds. 

 

Edited by Banard
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5 hours ago, Banard said:

"best" is objective. See those raid schedules? 

The best description i ever read about these "top guilds" their unpaid alpha testers.

I think it would of been hilarious to not nerf it for a length of time. Wait for a bunch of guilds to be on equal footing then announce "nerfs" next week and when servers will be back online and see who can kill him first. 

That be a race...100 guilds around the same ilevel knowing the nerf is in and the raid is open at X:XX o'clock.  It would be hilarious to see one of those crazy good 6 hour a week guilds beat these "top" guilds. 

 

It may be hilarious but it wouldn't show you who the best guild is. I suppose it would depend on the nerfs, but for example with C'thun the World First didn't necessarily go to the best guild, it was just there because the nerf came in EU raiding times and Nihilum was still raiding at the time slamming our heads against that unkillable wall, basically giving us the WF by default. So basically it would come down to luck and/or who got in the raid first. And again if the nerfs weren't that big you'd again need a long time to kill the boss and again the guilds which stayed and played the longest would have an advantage (presuming all guilds at equal player skill).

I do totally agree with you that any 100% fair race should NOT require these types of commitments from players, it's ridiculous to expect guilds to have 20+ of their members take 2-3 weeks off from work or even if they don't work to just not do anything else every day for that amount of time. Blizzard have it in their power to fix this (tournament realms, give all guilds the same fully geared chars, they can choose whichever class legendary, whatever, you limit the realm uptime to 4-6 hours a day or even less etc etc) but they will never do that because they don't really care about the race.

7 hours ago, MrEdren said:

I guess I'm not really sure why this is unexpected - they don't allow external testing of Mythic endbosses, and IIRC they've really never allowed for the final boss of any raid (see also: C'thunkillable).  Not to dismiss it as a nonissue, but I don't know how much they can really do in-house.  I'm also still not convinced that they aren't aware of the issues and just using them to create fixes for larger (read: non world first) consumption.

I'm not sure what you mean with that last sentence. I can tell you for a fact Blizz can indeed create well tuned bosses without anyone testing them, it's simply a matter of resources (and talent). Gul'dan didn't get any complaints, why do you think that is? Bevause they had time to do him properly and make a real boss, while with KJ there was less time and they didn't expend more resources to compensate and so he was in a worse condition. I mean I don't understand your argument I guess, it's clearly possible for Blizz to do proper endbosses without external testing (to a point, like a said there's always issues and bugs etc, it's just a matter of how big, how many and how fast they get fixed) and they didn't do it for Kj, that's ALL this is about.

I understand people really dislike these top guilds complaining (although I honestly can't understand why), but please trust me on this, if the general populace EVER ran into bugs and tuning issues like this when they came to any boss, there would be infinity billion more whining and complaining, and it wouldn't be anywhere near as constructive.

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19 hours ago, Allseye said:

I agree, this is a really a good feedback at developers and designers and lets hope/pray this will increase the quality for untested encounters.

But i have another pov, if this post should "shut up" the people. In my opinion there is a reason why some people said "don't complain about difficulty, it should not be easy at all". The problem is, that Exsorus and Method were complaining and instead of giving a proper feedback (which is understandable due to progress and not giving a hint to other combatants). If there is no proper justification, then this will lead to such statements. Look, i absolutely understand that it is frustrating to fight a broken encounter and wipe over and over again. But what is Method and Exsorsus expecting if they tweet complains? The reaction of the community was predictable and they have to accept (and ignore) such statements.

And now i'd like to defend the work of developers and designers of Blizzard (and no, i'm absolutely not a fanboy). So again: what are these top-raiding-guilds expecting? How many % of WoW-Players will ever see the mythic fight of KJ? How can someone blame the developers and designers for not investing that much time in such an ecounter? I really wish myself back to the days without that difficluty smashing. With more time for developers to introduce fights like Lady Vashj, Kael'thas, Illidan and so on.

As a conclusion if someone is interested on my pov: cut off these first kill race. That doesn't improve my (and approximately 99% of the players) quality of raiding. If there are bugs and broken mechanics in such fights, accept it or let it be.

 

Sure i dont disagree with your 'pov', maybe exorsus and method should of put more detail into their tweets but what i want to encourage the most is for casual players to have a more open mind about method and exorsus 'povs'. You say the reaction of the community was expected, but what im saying is that the community should not be so narrow minded, these guilds just smashes their heads against a boss for the better part of a week (more in exorsus' case), these guys should realise the frustration of these guilds. Sure maybe they should of gave a bit more insight in their tweets, but would you do the same if you just wiped on a boss all day for a week straight? I dont think so, be a bit more open minded, and see the point of view of these players.

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4 hours ago, Daemon said:

You say the reaction of the community was expected, but what im saying is that the community should not be so narrow minded, these guilds just smashes their heads against a boss for the better part of a week (more in exorsus' case), these guys should realise the frustration of these guilds.

Yeah, the community could not be so narrow minded. But it will never be this way because there is no reason to do so. It's the top guilds decision to take 2 weeks off and do the race. They know endbosses are untested and that there could (or will) exists bugs. So don't complain about that fact, it's just ridiculous. There is no mercy in the community, and there hasn't to be. It's presumtuous to expect the developers fixing such bugs on untested ecounters within a short period. Such fixes serves a few people and so the costs aren't justifiable. 

8 hours ago, Starym said:

I understand people really dislike these top guilds complaining (although I honestly can't understand why), but please trust me on this, if the general populace EVER ran into bugs and tuning issues like this when they came to any boss, there would be infinity billion more whining and complaining, and it wouldn't be anywhere near as constructive.

Oh well, there is a reason to dislike such guilds. It's because they complain about something which is not relevant for about 99% of the community. Afterwards we're seeing "fixes" causes problems for a much greater part of the community (as we have seen for Elisande in Nighthold by creating more bugs which affected other difficulties). This happens because Blizzard don't take the time to fix it properly.

I agree, but if more people run in such problems the effort for fixes is justifiable. Whining and complaining it's not a problem itself, it depends on the impact of the problem, doesn't it?

 

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On 7/28/2017 at 6:32 PM, Starym said:

I'm not sure what you mean with that last sentence. I can tell you for a fact Blizz can indeed create well tuned bosses without anyone testing them, it's simply a matter of resources (and talent). Gul'dan didn't get any complaints, why do you think that is? Bevause they had time to do him properly and make a real boss, while with KJ there was less time and they didn't expend more resources to compensate and so he was in a worse condition. I mean I don't understand your argument I guess, it's clearly possible for Blizz to do proper endbosses without external testing (to a point, like a said there's always issues and bugs etc, it's just a matter of how big, how many and how fast they get fixed) and they didn't do it for Kj, that's ALL this is about.

I understand people really dislike these top guilds complaining (although I honestly can't understand why), but please trust me on this, if the general populace EVER ran into bugs and tuning issues like this when they came to any boss, there would be infinity billion more whining and complaining, and it wouldn't be anywhere near as constructive.

  • I mean that if they get their data from the top guilds, they can more easily figure out how far down to tune it for everyone else - they most certainly have the info to do so. 
  • Regarding GD, I don't claim to be a mythic raider so I can't answer that.  It does seem, however, that Helya was much more of an obstacle than GD was.
  • I can't agree or disagree that they had the resources but chose not to  use them, and tbh I don't think you can either unless you have a lot more inside info than I think
  • Vael, Viscidus, all of Naxx 40, Magtheridon, pretty much all 3 5-man ICC wings (not a raid, I know), Mimiron hardmode just to name several.

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Thing is, 100% fair race will NEVER happen, especially with random legendaries, titanforging/warforging/socketing/etc. 

Unless we're talking premades, the point is utterly moot.  Even then there will be guilds that put MORE time in, either in whole or in large parts of the whole, than the others.  More time in is more experience and that's not something Blizz can hotfix or premades can even out.

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I get the whole WF race and the prestige/accomplishment it can bring.  The thing about that is, If you're a "top guild", you're in the competition for world first, and tuning is THAT bad, you're only bringing frustration on to yourself.  Don't get me wrong, if you're even slightly competitive and you're in a world first race regardless of how bad tuning is you're going to repeatedly bash your head against the wall until something breaks, I get that.  However, don't complain and expect people to instantly go "oh you poor soul".

This post however was a constructive post.  It brought to light the reasonings behind the frustrations that they were displaying, and that is fine.

The casual player will probably never see Mythic until it's either previous or end of current tier content.  Do they really care if mythic bosses are tuned properly (especially at the beginning of current content)? Most likely not because it has no direct impact on them.  By the time semi-hardcore players see the content it will be nerfed a few times over with some tweaking left to do.  Hardcore players are directly impacted by mythic tuning and bug fixes.  

Quote

“Top guilds already killed all bosses on PTR”. Quite popular one, I admit. In fact every PTR test of a boss lasts ~ 2 hours, servers are not quite stable and ping is far from ideal (at least for us it’s 200-300ms). Main purpose of a PTR test for top guilds is to check abilities and find out which classes are the best for encounters, rather than simply to kill the boss asap and write in twitter “world 1st Harjatan PTR Mythic down”. Last boss is something we’re not seeing on PTR at all (not sure if it’s a good idea), but even for pre-last bosses we’re not able to test all the phases of it due to very limited timeframe + scaling / server stability etc.

The thing about this is that the true design of the PTR is for bug testing.  Personally I don't think raid testing should be on the PTR at all if the only reason they are doing it is to check abilities and find out which classes are best for the encounters.  That should be reserved for live raiding (yes I know not a lot of people will agree with this).  I personally think that raid testing should be done by Blizzard only QA employees in a closed environment, this way top guilds have to actually perform progression by learning the fights and mechanics in real time, thus giving them the actual accomplishment of WF and WS.

Quote

Tuning encounters for immunity classes. Lately a lot of abilities are being tuned for different immunes / damage reductions and similar mechanics, which are limiting classes we may bring to encounters. As an example – Mythic Kil'jaeden has 2 tanking Armageddon zones, however one of your tanks always has Fel Claws debuff, which increases your physical damage taken by 250%. So you’re forced to soak 30m phys damage Armageddon zone with someone, who can immune it (hunter/mage/paladin). And there’re plenty of other examples, especially in ToS (Dark Mark, Armageddon, Focused Dreadflame, Burning Sphere, Touch of Sargeras, Unstable Soul, Rain of Brimstone, Lunar Beacon)

I agree that this is becoming an issue.  I get that Blizzard is trying new things (or a revamp of old things), however, it's getting out of hand.  Even for Heroic my guild has been forced to bench players on K'J to favor immunity classes.

Quote

Implementing Balance changes in (7.X.5) patches right before new raid tier. Changing classes right before the raid is a awful decision. And it’s not only hardcore players issue. Let’s imagine I’m a casual player enjoying my class, looking forward playing it in a new raid. I know that i’m well aware of how to play my class, which legendaries, rotation and everything else I need to use. And suddenly, 2-3 weeks before a new raid my class is changed. What if I’m not a fan of them, there’s no time to reroll and for some people not enough time to adapt to all the changes. For the top guilds it’s not an issue, however because of that developers are getting new “balance and tuning” info too late, meaning some classes are staying too good for progression (hello Arms warriors), meanwhile other classes are just benched (Ret paladins, Frost DK etc).

This is complete crap.  With all of the extra content they added in 7.2.5 with the Broken Shore, relinquished gear, increase on TF levels and mythic+ changes it is 100% possible within 1 week to go from a fresh 110 to an ~890-900 item level character.  This is 100% determined by how you manage your time once new content comes out.  As an example my hunter went from 100 to 110 in about 1 days playtime (over the course of 2 days starting on a Friday evening after work), and was 870 item level within 3 days after that before even completing my order hall campaign.  By that following Friday I was about 895 item level which was still about 2 weeks before the release of ToS.  I am by no means a hardcore player, I just maximized the time I had.

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On 31/07/2017 at 8:42 AM, DeathsDesign said:

This is complete crap.  With all of the extra content they added in 7.2.5 with the Broken Shore, relinquished gear, increase on TF levels and mythic+ changes it is 100% possible within 1 week to go from a fresh 110 to an ~890-900 item level character.  This is 100% determined by how you manage your time once new content comes out.  As an example my hunter went from 100 to 110 in about 1 days playtime (over the course of 2 days starting on a Friday evening after work), and was 870 item level within 3 days after that before even completing my order hall campaign.  By that following Friday I was about 895 item level which was still about 2 weeks before the release of ToS.  I am by no means a hardcore player, I just maximized the time I had.

This last bit wasn't just a focus on gear, but on actually learning to maximise performance on the class. Gearing is easy, but speed-learning how to play a completely new class can be tough. If Survival suddenly became the best Hunter spec and one of the top class specs right before Argus, people everywhere would struggle horrendously to play it. It's by far the most challenging spec to maximise the potential of and takes far longer than a few weeks to master. People currently still play BM over SV regardless of how good SV sims simply because of how much more difficult it is to play.

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1 hour ago, Blainie said:

This last bit wasn't just a focus on gear, but on actually learning to maximise performance on the class. Gearing is easy, but speed-learning how to play a completely new class can be tough. If Survival suddenly became the best Hunter spec and one of the top class specs right before Argus, people everywhere would struggle horrendously to play it. It's by far the most challenging spec to maximise the potential of and takes far longer than a few weeks to master. People currently still play BM over SV regardless of how good SV sims simply because of how much more difficult it is to play.

That's a fair point, and I'll agree with you on that point.  I feel like for the average player it's harder to swap classes and play them to the potential they can play them at than it is for top teir players, it doesn't take away from all of the mental work they have to go through to perfect the class once they learn it.  For top tier players the curve is larger but for 80-90% potential it's shorter.  At least that's how I feel about it lol.  We are all just human after all and susceptible to mistakes.

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23 hours ago, DeathsDesign said:

That's a fair point, and I'll agree with you on that point.  I feel like for the average player it's harder to swap classes and play them to the potential they can play them at than it is for top teir players, it doesn't take away from all of the mental work they have to go through to perfect the class once they learn it.  For top tier players the curve is larger but for 80-90% potential it's shorter.  At least that's how I feel about it lol.  We are all just human after all and susceptible to mistakes.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Plenty of people are happy to play a class well, not many people seek to completely perfect their numerical DPS output, so they spend less time perfecting it.

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      Players continue to discover hidden perks of the 8.0 pre-patch. Redditor fgmenth noticed that it's possible to reach Exalted reputation standing with the Gelkis and Magram Clan Centaurs in Desolace.

      The cool thing is that you only need to complete a couple of quests to get to Exalted and both factions count toward the new 100 Exalted Reputations that rewards "the Esteemed" title and the Pureheart Courser mount.

      Quest Chain
      Maraudine Prisoner Manifest is needed to start the quest chain and the item drops from Maraudine Maulers in Desolace. You need to complete some quests in order for it to drop, more details can be found here. Completing the final quest will give you enough reputation with both factions to instantly reach Exalted.

      Individual Quests
      Behind Closed Doors Time For Change Into the Fray! Death to Agogridon Players that have completed the quest before the pre-patch are not able to reach Exalted, according to player reports. We're not really sure if the whole thing is a bug, but we'll let you know as soon as we know more!
      (Source)
    • By Stan
      Our Battle for Azeroth expansion hub is filled to brim with useful information to get you started with WoW's latest expansion!
      Your source of the latest Battle for Azeroth news!
      Battle for Azeroth 8.0 Pre-Patch
      The pre-patch is now live worldwide. An active subscription is only required to play the game up to Legion, as Blizzard removed the Battle Chest.
      Official Patch 8.0.1 Patch Notes Class Guides for Patch 8.0.1 Patch 8.0.1 Survival Guide Battle for Azeroth Release Date
      World of Warcraft's latest expansion will be released on August 14, 2018 in all regions at the same time. You can find out more information in this post.
      Pre-Purchase Battle for Azeroth
      If you pre-purchase the expansion, you'll get a level 110 boost and gain early access to four Allied Races. The Digital Deluxe Edition comes with various goodies in all Blizzard games except Diablo. Collector's Edition from local retailers also comes with two novellas and you can read excerpts here. Character slots will be increased to 18 per server. Inactive accounts have been upgraded to Warlords of Draenor.
      Game Version Pricing Buy Link Standard Edition $49.99 // 44.99 EUR EU / US Digital Deluxe Edition $69.99 // 59.99 EUR EU / US Pre-Purchase Deal [More Details]
      New players that pre-order Battle for Azeroth will get Legion bundled with it for 49.99 USD // 44.99 EUR.
      Allied Races
      Highmountain Tauren, Lightforged Draenei, Nightborne and Void Elves are four Allied Races that can be unlocked before Battle for Azeroth goes live. Pre-purchasing the expansion won't unlock them though. They're gated behind Exalted reputation standing with Legion factions and achievements.
      If you boost an Allied Race character to level 110, you won't be able to receive Heritage Armor.
      It's very likely that Blizzard removes the gating at some point before Battle for Azeroth launch. It would not make much sense having them gated behind old content.
      Allied Races Unlock Requirements
      Allied Race Requirements Highmountain Tauren Ain't No Mountain High Enough + Exalted with Highmountain Tribe  Lightforged Draenei You Are Now Prepared! + Exalted with Army of the Light Nightborne Insurrection + Exalted with the Nightfallen Void Elf You Are Now Prepared! + Exalted with Argussian Reach Allied Races in Battle for Azeroth
      Four Allied Races have been confirmed in Battle for Azeroth so far. The Alliance will be able to unlock Dark Iron Dwarves and Kul Tirans, whereas the Horde can convince Mag'har Orcs and Zandalari Trolls to join the faction. The aforementioned Allied Races will be gated behind Battle for Azeroth content and can't be unlocked before launch. We learned that Dark Iron Dwarves and Mag'har Orcs will be available first and both Allied Races are now available for playtesting on Beta and in order to unlock them, you must finish your faction's War Campaign in Battle for Azeroth. Blizzard confirmed that Blood Trolls will not be an Allied Race in the coming expansion.
      Allied Races Official Page Update: May 4 Dark Iron Dwarves & Mag'har Orcs Overview Dark Iron Dwarves & Mag'har Orcs Official Preview Dark Iron Dwarf & Mag'har Orc Unlock Requirements Dark Iron Dwarf Mole Machine Racial Dark Iron Dwarf Mole Machine Locations Dark Iron Dwarf Hub Preview: Shadowforge City Dark Iron Dwarf Paladin Mount Preview Kul Tiran & Mag'har Orc Heritage Armor Kul Tiran Customization Options Kul Tiran Druid Aquatic Forms Kul Tiran Druid Bear Forms Kul Tiran Druid Cat Forms Kul Tiran Druid Flight Forms Kul Tiran Druid Travel Forms Mag'har Orcs: Hall of the Brave Outpost in Orgrimmar Zandalari Troll Druid Forms Zandalari Troll Druid Forms Animations Zandalari Troll Shaman Totems Azerite Armor
      Set bonuses are gone in Battle for Azeroth and the legendary amulet is used to unlock Azerite traits on Azerite Armor. The plan is to introduce three pieces of Azerite Armor to the game - Head, Shoulders & Chest. In this section, you can find a list of Azerite traits that have been added to the game so far.
      PvP Azerite Traits (Beta Build 26788) Uldir Azerite Traits (Beta Build 26734) Azerite Traits Overview (Beta Build 26707) Azerite Traits Overview (Beta Build 26624) Azerite Traits Overview (Beta Build 26567) Azerite Traits Overview (Beta Build 26530) Azerite Traits Overview (Alpha Build 26476) Azerite Traits Overview (Alpha Build 26433) Azerite Traits on Battle for Azeroth Alpha (Chest Piece) Azerite Traits Overview (Alpha Build 26231) Blizzard has recently updated the UI of Azerite Armor and you can find more details here. Azerite traits can be reset at an increasing gold cost that resets every week.
      Blue Posts
      A collection of blue posts dealing with a variety of subjects in Battle for Azeroth.
      Frost Death Knight Changes: June 12 Changes to Block, MM Hunters, Protection/Retribution Paladins, Brewmaster/Mistweaver Monks: June 9 Surival Hunter & Frost Death Knight Beta Class Feedback: June 6 Arms Warrior Changes on BfA Beta: June 5 Mage Tower to Become Permanently Active as We Near Expansion Launch Affliction Warlock Beta Feedback: June 5 Battle for Azeroth Class Feedback: April 30 Battle for Azeroth Class Feedback: May 3 Blue Posts Roundup: April 12 Changes to Block in Battle for Azeroth Class Development in Battle for Azeroth Fury Warrior & Discipline Priest Changes: May 25 Fury Warrior & Marksmanship Hunter Changes: May 31 Moonkin Changes in Battle for Azeroth DPS & HPS Cooldowns on Battle for Azeroth Alpha (Experimental Change) Protection Paladin & Discipline Priest Changes: May 24 Racials and Trinkets Off the Global Cooldown on Beta Build Highlights
      Battle for Azeroth is currently in Alpha. We have overviews with creature models, items, and latest changes:
      Battle for Azeroth Alpha 26310 Highlights Battle for Azeroth Alpha Build 26287 Highlights Battle for Azeroth Alpha Build 26231 Highlights Battle for Azeroth Alpha Build 26175 Highlights Battle for Azeroth Alpha Build 26131 Highlights Battle for Azeroth Alpha Build 26095 Highlights Battle for Azeroth Alpha Build 25976 Highlights Battle for Azeroth Alpha Build 26287 Creature Models Battle for Azeroth Alpha Build 26032 Creature Models New Earth Elemental Models in Battle for Azeroth Class Changes

      In the latest dev watercooler, Blizzard talked about Class design philosophy in Battle for Azeroth. There's a new Battle for Azeroth build every week and we keep track of all talent changes here. A detailed overview of every build can be found below:
      Beta Talent Changes *NEW*
      Beta Build 26871 Talent Changes Beta Build 26812 Talent Changes Beta Build 26788 Talent Changes Beta Build 26734 Talent Changes Beta Build 26707 Talent Changes Beta Build 26624 Talent Changes Beta Build 26567 Talent Changes Beta Build 26530 Talent Changes Class Reviews
      We teamed up with Bellular to bring you a series of Class reviews for Battle for Azeroth in the coming weeks. The series is sponsored by Icy Veins and goes through all important changes for your favorite Class.
      Death Knight Class Review for Battle for Azeroth Hunter Class Review for Battle for Azeroth Mage Class Review for Battle for Azeroth Warrior Class Review for Battle for Azeroth Alpha Talent Changes
      Alpha Build 26476 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26433 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26367 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26310 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26287 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26231 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26175 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26131 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26095 Talent Changes Alpha Build 26032 Talent Changes Alpha Build 25976 Talent Changes In addition to that, Hunters can no longer change a Pet's specialization in Battle for Azeroth and we also looked at changes to Druid Travel forms.
      Unicorns Tameable in Battle for Azeroth Communities
      Communities in Battle for Azeroth bring people with common interests together, just like D3 communities. The new feature will launch in the pre-patch and there are also improvements coming to Guilds (e.g. chat history).
      Communities - Official Preview Cosmetics
      Below you will find articles about interesting Cosmetic items and transmogs coming in the next expansion.
      Taebu's Scorching Straight Sword Waist of Time Books & Comics
      Christie Golden's Before the Storm novel is a prequel to Battle for Azeroth that's now available for purchase.
      Before the Storm Novel Spoilers (Amazon Preview) Before the Storm Novel Excerpt 1: Anduin Letter to Sylvanas Before the Storm Novel Excerpts 2 & 3 Digital Comics: Reunion (Jaina) Digital Comics: The Speaker (Magni Bronzebeard) Digital Comics: Three Sisters Customization Options
      Articles here deal with additional customization options for existing races.
      Change Skin Color in the Barber Shop Golden Eyes Customization Option for Blood Elves How to Create Upright Orcs Upright Orcs Overview Dungeons
      Ten new dungeons will be added to the game in Battle for Azeroth. We looked at Dungeon Journal entries and compared item levels of loot rewards after the squish and we started to upload previews of available dungeons on Normal difficulty.
      The Underrot Flying in Battle for Azeroth
      Flying will be handled the same way as in Legion. We have two Pathfinder achievements and whilst the requirements to complete the first part have been datamined, the second part will be added to the game at a later time as part of a BfA content patch.
      How to Unlock Flying in Battle for Azeroth Battle for Azeroth Pathfinder Update (Beta Build 26707) Heart of Azeroth
      With the removal of Artifact weapons and traits, all players will receive a Legendary neckpiece called Heart of Azeroth. The main goal is to collect Azerite (Artifact power) and empower it in order to unlock Azerite armor traits. The first set of traits is now available for testing on Battle for Azeroth Alpha. The appearance of Legion Artifacts will still be available in the new expansion as a transmog.
      Heart of Azeroth Explained How to Get the Heart of Azeroth Interviews
      Several community websites had the chance to sit down with WoW devs at PAX East 2018 to talk about Battle for Azeroth and we have roundups of their interviews:
      Battle for Azeroth Community Interviews Part I Battle for Azeroth Community Interviews Part II Forbes Interview with Game Director Ion Hazzikostas Part I Forbes Interview with Game Director Ion Hazzikostas Part II InvenGlobal Developer Interview PCGamesN Interview with Production Director John Hight *NEW* The Starting Zone Interview Island Expeditions
      Plunder uncharted Islands in Battle for Azeroth. The new 3-player dynamic Scenarios come in four difficulties and the goal is to collect 6,000 Azerite before the opposing faction!
      Island Expeditions Preview - Un'gol Ruins Island Expeditions Mounts Island Expeditions (Official Preview) Legacy Loot Mode
      Personal Loot used in dungeons since Patch 7.3.5 was not well received by transmog collectors. Blizzard is trying to fix it with the introduction of Legacy Loot mode.
      Legion Artifact Weapons
      We're retiring our Artifact weapons soon and Battle for Azeroth goes back to standard weapon drops. You will still be able to transmogrify the Artifact appearance though and some of them will still whisper you.
      Legion Artifacts in Battle for Azeroth Legion Artifact Retirement Questline Legendary Items in Battle for Azeroth
      Nothing has been officially confirmed yet, but there may be at least one Legendary item in Battle for Azeroth. The Legion Legendary system will be abandoned and their effects will no longer work past level 115.
      Login Screen
      Battle for Azeroth Login Screen Lore
      This section contains various articles about lore characters, scenarios and gameplay previews.
      Battle for Lordaeron Scenario (Alliance & Horde PoV) Environmental Changes of Teldrassil and Undercity The Burning of Teldrassil Intro The Stormwind Extraction Scenario (Horde Intro) Zandalar Forever Scenario  Map Improvements
      World boss spawns and boat/zeppelin locations will be indicated on the world map in Battle for Azeroth.
      Map Improvements in Battle for Azeroth Mounts
      If you're an avid mount collector, Battle for Azeroth will most definitely not disappoint you. Plenty of cool mounts are coming and we covered the following flying/ground mounts so far:
      Reputation Mounts in Battle for Azeroth Mounts from Mythic(+) Dungeons Mount Rewards for 100 Exalted Reputation & Collecting 400 Mounts Basilisk PvP Mounts Battle for Lordaeron Faction Mounts Bee Mounts Bloodfeaster Mounts Brutosaur Mount (Mount with an Auctioneer Costs 5 Million Gold) Clefthoof PvP Mount Crawg Mounts Darkhound Mount Frog Mounts Goblin Hovercraft Mounts Hyena Mounts Obsidian Krolusk Mount (Glory of the Wartorn Hero Reward) Parrot Mounts Proto-drake Mounts Raptor Mounts Swift Spectral Phoenix Mount Tempestuous Skystallion Mount Vulture Mounts Vicious War Hippo Mount Music
      Main Battle for Azeroth Soundtrack Mythic Keystone Changes
      No huge changes are planned for the Mythic Keystone system. It has been received well in Legion. We datamined some spells related to Mythic Keystone customization and a new (possibly level 10) affix.  Tyrannical & Fortified affixes will be moved to level 2 Keystones to avoid awkward power spikes and the weekly Mythic chest has a chance to contain up to 3 pieces of loot.
      Infested Affix in Battle for Azeroth Mythic Keystone Customization New Mythic Affixes Weekly Mythic Cache Rewards in Battle for Azeroth Pet Battles
      In Battle for Azeroth, level of the pets opposing you will scale to the highest level pet on your team. New pet mechanics will be introduced and some existing mechanics will change.
      Pet Battle Changes in Battle for Azeroth Pet Battle Philosophies in Battle for Azeroth Pet Battle Updates (Beta Build 26707) Profession Changes
      Most First Aid recipes have been moved to Tailoring and achievements are now Feats of Strength, hinting at a possible removal of First Aid. An early look at Profession changes and new recipes can be found here.
      PvP  *NEW*
      Quality of life improvements are coming to PvP in Battle for Azeroth. Strand of the Ancients will be removed, the two 40v40 battlegrounds will have a separate queue, and more!
      Changes to Multiboxing in Battle for Azeroth Dueler's Guild Preview PvP Talents in Battle for Azeroth PvP Rating Updates in Battle for Azeroth Battleground Updates in Battle for Azeroth New PvP Ranking and Item Level Systems in Battle for Azeroth Prestige Levels in Battle for Azeroth War Mode in Battle for Azeroth Enabled War Mode Increases XP Gains by 10% Reputations
      Multiple factions have been added to the game in Battle for Azeroth and you can gain reputation with them by completing world quests.
      Reputation Rewards in Battle for Azeroth Research Advancement
      There are six tiers of research that provide various boons in the new expansion.
      Research Advancement in Battle for Azeroth Q&A
      Game Director Ion Hazzikostas is periodically answering your Battle for Azeroth questions. The latest Q&A was conducted on April 26.
      Battle for Azeroth Live Developer Q&A (June 14) Battle for Azeroth Live Developer Q&A (April 26) Battle for Azeroth Live Developer Q&A (March 15) Battle for Azeroth Live Developer Q&A (January 30) Racial Nerfs
      Every Man for Himself and Arcane Torrent will be nerfed in Battle for Azeroth. You can find more information here.
      Raids
      Uldir will be the first raid of the expansion. In a future raid (probably the Nighthold raid equivalent in BfA), we're going to fight Azshara. FatbossTV have done previews of Uldir encounters on Heroic difficulty.
      Heroic Uldir Raid Testing: G'huun Heroic Uldir Raid Testing: Mythrax the Unraveler Heroic Uldir Raid Testing: Taloc & Fetid Devourer Heroic Uldir Raid Testing: MOTHER & Vectis Uldir Raid Encounters Uldir Sets Preview Uldir Zone Preview & Zek'voz, Herald of N'zoth (Heroic) Testing Timewalking
      Mists of Pandaria is receiving its first Timewalking raid in Battle for Azeroth.
      Siege of Orgrimmar Timewalking Warfronts
      Warfronts are 20-player PvE scenarios coming in Battle for Azeroth. The first Warfront was recently enabled for testing on Alpha.
      Battle of Stromgarde Warfront Preview Warfronts Schedule in Battle for Azeroth WoW Classic
      Even though this is not BfA-related, we finally got some news about WoW Classic development in a Watercooler on June 16. You can find more details here.
      Visuals
      Hunters and Warlocks received new spell animations.
      Hunter Spell Animations Warlock Spell Animations Warlock Summon Demon Animations Summoning Stone & Soulwell Animations Zone Previews
      This section contains zone previews of Kul Tiras and Zandalar.
      Arathi Highlands Updated in Preparation for Warfronts High-Resolution Maps of Kul Tiras & Zandalar Drustvar Zone Preview Nazmir Zone Preview (Official) Vol'dun Zone Preview Uther's Tomb Visual Update Uther's Tomb Visual Update #2 Zuldazar City Official Preview Changelog
      July 14
      Added pre-patch release date, Mag'har Orcs zone & scenario steps, pre-patch customization options and more.
      July 11
      Added the official preview of the new WoW Communities feature and the Darkforge Ram preview.
      July 10
      Added map improvements in BfA and Bellular's third Class review about Death Knights.
      July 9
      The hub has been updated with all missing articles.
      June 11
      Added latest talent changes and PvP Azerite traits (Beta Build 26788).
      June 10
      Updated the hub with new mounts, new Beta build coverage, one launch to rule them all, various blue posts & more.
      June 1
      Added Uldir powers and latest Beta Build 26734 talent changes.
      May 31
      Updated the hub with all missing articles.
      May 7
      Added datamined Azerite traits for Build 26530, Heroic Uldir raid testing and PCGamesN interview with John Hight.
      May 4
      Added Legion Artifacts in BfA.
      May 3
      Updated with the latest news and the PvP section.
      April 24
      The hub has been updated with new links to our latest news and previews and Battle for Azeroth Beta is now live!
      April 5
      Blizzard revealed the release date of Battle for Azeroth. We also added the latest information to the hub, including Dark Iron Dwarf & Mag'har Orc playable classes, latest talent updates, Azerite traits, and more!
      March 26
      The hub got updated with a bunch of new articles including new customization options for Blood Elves, talent updates for Alpha Build 26287, new creature models and a post dealing with global cooldowns in Battle for Azeroth.
      March 22
      A new Alpha Build arrived on Battle for Azeroth Alpha realms. Blizzard added the Dark Iron Dwarf racial mount, two Dwarf Paladin Ram mounts and more!
      March 21
      We added our preview of Island Expeditions to the website.
    • By joat
      Who We Are
      Tequila Sundown is a mythic raid team formed within the <Karma Horde> guild on US-Stormreaver. Lead by a husband/wife team with high-level raiding experience dating back to WotLK, we're a "positively determined" progression team that maintains a light-hearted atmosphere while tackling mythic difficulty content. We're mature adults with jobs and family seeking like-minded players who have a passion for the game but want to avoid the needless angst or drama that often gets associated with progression raiding. We log on to have fun - so come have some fun with us!

      A Team Within a Community
      Our raid team is one of three within the larger guild of <Karma Horde>, which was formed back during WotLK. As such, the guild and Discord are very active and social. There are always people around online and in-game. The community atmosphere is welcoming and friendly to players of all levels. The guild enforces a Code of Conduct that has zero tolerance for hate/offensive speech.
      We are always looking to add players with a friendly personality and lots of passion for the game. We want players who are going to log in on non-raid nights and be down for all the other things we're into: pushing mythic+, doing world quests, PVP shenanigans, achievement hunting, hyper-competitive fishing.. there's so much to do and so many ways to enjoy the game. This is our favorite hobby and we'd like to play with you if it is yours, too.

      Progression Goals
      We are 7/11 Mythic Antorus, Heroic AOTC.
      We strive for a fun environment that takes the challenges of mythic seriously and giving the content the respect it deserves. Our aim is, as all mythic teams, full clear of content but with always keeping the friendly spirit of camaraderie alive. Performance matters, but so does staying positive and finding the fun in the difficulty of a raid. We do not require mythic raid experience to join our team but we do expect mythic-level dedication and accountability from all of our raiders. You must be able to take constructive criticism and have ownership over your level of play, and be willing to put in the effort to be a contribution to the team.

      Raid Days/Times
      Our mandatory raids are:
      Tuesdays 8:45pm PT - 11:45pm PT
      Thursdays 8:45pm PT - 11:45pm PT
      Optional:
      Sundays 8:45pm PT - 11:45pm PT
      Sundays are for farming the previous raid difficulty.

      Recruitment Needs
      Our roster is currently full, but if you are still interested you may fill out an application via the link below. 
      Interested? Next steps: 
      Please check out our team's wiki on the <Karma Horde> subreddit.
      Read the Guild Code of Conduct
      Complete and submit a New Raider Application
      Join the guild's Discord server
      Add the Raid Leaders on bnet:  joat#1832 & lambkill#1856  
      Looking forward to hearing from you!
    • By Starym
      And we now have the very first official hotfixes of the pre-expansion patch! We have a bunch of class fixes for various abilities that were either bugged or incorrectly converted, fixes for legacy content and Tomb of Sargeras bosses, as well as other stat squish issues in the open world, and finally, a whole lot of quest items that can again be looted and other quest fixes.
      July 18 (source)
      July 18, 2018
      Classes
      Demon Hunter Chaos Brand correctly has unlimited duration outside of PvP. Druid Restoration Tranquility’s heal-over-time can correctly critically heal. Hunter Marksmanship Explosive Shot will now correctly despawn if the projectile collides with an obstacle or reaches maximum range, and refund partial cost and cooldown. Monk Mystic Touch correctly has unlimited duration outside of PvP. Mage Arcane Soul of the Archmage now grants the talent Amplification (was Temporal Flux). When Arcane Missiles activate Clearcasting, the subsequent (free) Missiles will correctly have reduced channel time and be affected by Slipstream. Priest Shadow Psychic Horror is correctly usable below level 74. Shaman Restoration Soul of the Farseer should now correctly grant the talent Echo of the Elements. Dungeons and Raids
      Tomb of Sargeras Maiden of Vigilance Wrath of the Creators should no longer deal excessive damage. Icecrown Citadel Lady Deathwhisper again has an appropriate amount of mana. Dire Maul Alzzin the Wildshaper’s Wild Generation should no longer heal for an excessive amount. The Arcatraz Fixed a bug causing Eredar Deathbringer to deal much more damage than intended. NPCs
      Fixed a bug causing centaurs in Desolace to deal more damage than intended. Druids can again interact with Skycaller Faeb. Player versus Player
      Honor and Conquest rewards for Epic Battlegrounds have been increased. Corrected the amount of damage dealt by players to creatures and vehicles in Alterac Valley and Isle of Conquest. Professions
      Corrected the display of ranks in Profession recipe windows. Quests
      The Staff of Pei-Zhi can again be looted for “An Urgent Plea”. Fixed a bug preventing the completion of some Garrison campaign quests in Draenor. In Highmountain, Small Ceremonial Drum can again be interacted with for "Ceremonial Drums". Merchant Greenfield again gives the player seeds for "Learn and Grow I: Seeds". Fixed a bug preventing Kol Ironpaw from grilling the Bloody Plainshawk Leg for "A Gift For Fung". It is again possible to collect Fizzle’s Hand for “Fizzled”. Aprika’s Doll can again be collected for “Small Comforts”. Players can again interact with Mana-Drained Whelplings for "Their Dying Breaths". The Eye of Kilrogg is again obtainable for “Eye See You”. The Soulweave Vessel can again be looted for “The Cure For Death” and “Vessel of Virtue”. World
      Legion Assaults now correctly scale down to player level 98. 8.0.1 Patch Notes.