Banard

First Days of Antorus

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So the first day are upon us...and so far (as of Nov 30) the 16,833 parses of MM and the 18,026 parses of BM has illustrated as whole we are meh and specs are "close" .  EDIT:***THE PARSE NUMBERS ARE INCORRECT AND INCLUDED TOS***

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#aggregate=amount&sample=7&dataset=99

@75% rank MM is 3.43% ahead of BM 

this widens and becomes 6.35% @ 99% rank. 

 

I have no complaints about the difference but overall it is starting to hint as a class are under performing. 

BUT 

It is early yet, a lot of mismatch gear going on for all classes. It be interesting to see this unfold. 

Edited by Banard

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I'd say wait a bit more, give it two or three weeks so everybody has had a chance to get geared.

 

I actually expect BM to drop in ranking, mostly because the new tier is shit. So the gain in item level will be downplayed by the tier bonus, which means bad scaling.

 

To a lesser degree, mobility matters on week 1. MM is a spec that loses dps with movement, so as players memorize the fights they will optimize their movements and widen the dps gap. BM can look fine the first time you pull when you don't know the timers.

 

Edit: Looking at the rankings it does seem to be lower than expected, compared to other classes. I haven't been there yet since I do progress at the end of the week, but BM looks suspiciously low on Eonar. Is the pet getting stuck or something? I know BM is not the top cleaving spec, but it's not that weak.

Edited by Khallid

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Honestly it's time to reroll spriest or aff lock I reckon boys. My guild went from 4 hunters and 1 lock and 1 spriest to 2 hunters, 3 locks, 2 spriests and all they do is sit right at the top of the charts.

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4 hours ago, Khallid said:

I haven't been there yet since I do progress at the end of the week, but BM looks suspiciously low on Eonar. Is the pet getting stuck or something?

Yes. It's truly awful. I'll probably shift to MM specifically for that fight irrespective of how bad I am at it / how bad my legendaries are.

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19 hours ago, Khallid said:

I'd say wait a bit more, give it two or three weeks so everybody has had a chance to get geared.

 but BM looks suspiciously low on Eonar. Is the pet getting stuck or something? I know BM is not the top cleaving spec, but it's not that weak.

First, as i said this is the numbers out of the gate. It is what it is. I agree with what you said but that be a lot of parses and gives the exact picture of whats going on the first couple of days. I posted it here because i want to see HOW IT CHANGES going forward. I am going to try and post a update to those numbers so we can see how they change going forward in the tier. Me gut is telling me MM will move further ahead and BM will fall behind. BUT..out of the gate...hunters seem week this tier. 

 

And Eonar is a horrible cake walk of a fight. Its run to x , kill mobs, run to y kill mobs...run to Z kill mobs...etc etc.  Lots of our dps comes from BW, so pop BW kill mobs and...use the rest of BW duration travelling to the next area.  God for bid you target a wrong target....on my heroic pull i lost me pets travelling between spots, target a mob below me, by the time they got to me the mobs were dead and it was time to move on. This will not be a issue as you learn but it will be bleh for BM. If you want to do good you need to set yourself up for quick aoe burst. 

And to be honest the fight over all is pathetic...maybe on mythic it be interesting but when you "kill a boss" and every one is surprised it is over...well that is a fail. There was no excitement, no build up. It was dead and every one was like "was that it"?

 

Either way, i played like shit this week. Two months off raiding and i am really off my game. 

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29 minutes ago, Banard said:

And Eonar is a horrible cake walk of a fight.

Yeah I just did it in normal. Logs say I had 30% activity, so my dps is utter garbage because shit died too fast and the way our group split I ended fighting fewer mobs. I assume that won't be as horrible on heroic or mythic, but it still sucked.

And the pets can't hit the flying bats at any point, not even when they're hovering around Eonar. Such a big fail. We're a ranged class that can't hit the ranged-only adds. Switching to MM for this fight might actually be a necessity.

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16 minutes ago, Khallid said:

 I assume that won't be as horrible on heroic 

 

It is the same on heroic.  I did not notice any differences at all. 

 

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I think there's a couple differences, but nothing that noticeably impacted the fight.  It's a meme of a fight, but I do agree that MM is probably the way to go, the only other option would actually be the stomp build because of it's burst AoE capabilities, but as gear is obtained etc... that build fades.

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What I do not understand, so very few MT fights yet MM tierset 4piece is all about multitarget :( So I think BM might come closer as MM doesnt gain much from the setbonusses.

At the moment I only consider the High Command and Eonar worth wearing the legendary belt. Rest is pure ST or ST with target switching.

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On 12/1/2017 at 11:58 AM, Banard said:

It is the same on heroic.  I did not notice any differences at all. 

 

Heroic felt a lot better than normal in my opinion. The adds didn't die as fast so I spent most of the time actually dpsing. CC was useful. 

Although I can see the fight will get worse as we get more gear, and eventually heroic will resemble normal.

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18 hours ago, Khallid said:

Heroic felt a lot better than normal in my opinion. The adds didn't die as fast so I spent most of the time actually dpsing. CC was useful. 

Although I can see the fight will get worse as we get more gear, and eventually heroic will resemble normal.

Depends on your guild, if i remember straight, your a good player in a shitty guild. Get with a group on the same skill level as you and your DPS will go to ^*(^(* on that fight.  My DPS doubled from normal but it could hardly tell the difference...run after people, pew pew chase people pew pew....**insert amount of time*** loot drop! Horrible fight. 

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On 12/5/2017 at 7:59 AM, Banard said:

Depends on your guild, if i remember straight, your a good player in a shitty guild. Get with a group on the same skill level as you and your DPS will go to ^*(^(* on that fight.  My DPS doubled from normal but it could hardly tell the difference...run after people, pew pew chase people pew pew....**insert amount of time*** loot drop! Horrible fight. 

I'd rather have fun when I play videogames. The hardcore guilds I've been in the past were too serious about the game and bored the hell out of me. I also don't want to play any alts, or have anyone criticize my performance for using BM instead of MM, so forget the top tier guilds as well.

4 hours ago, Banard said:

@75% rank MM is 7.04% ahead of BM

this widens and becomes 13.75% @ 99% rank. 

There are 130 parses for MM, 111 for BM. 

Meh, not enough dps gap to stress me at the moment. Good luck for next week.

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1 hour ago, Khallid said:

I'd rather have fun when I play videogames. The hardcore guilds I've been in the past were too serious about the game and bored the hell out of me. I also don't want to play any alts, or have anyone criticize my performance for using BM instead of MM, so forget the top tier guilds as well.

 

There is a huge world of guilds from one extreme to the other. Your on a huge server. Any of those guilds that are 2/11 or 1/11 mythic at this point would not expect you to have alts. Or care about BM with your numbers. 

 

 

On the numbers @ the moment there decent but i suspect them to increase. If @ the 75% we get to a 10% differential then we will need a buff to make it smaller. 

The real question i been asking, if we need to "pay" for this BM's mobility...what is the proper dps lost? 

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1 hour ago, Banard said:

There is a huge world of guilds from one extreme to the other. Your on a huge server. Any of those guilds that are 2/11 or 1/11 mythic at this point would not expect you to have alts. Or care about BM with your numbers. 

On the numbers @ the moment there decent but i suspect them to increase. If @ the 75% we get to a 10% differential then we will need a buff to make it smaller. 

The real question i been asking, if we need to "pay" for this BM's mobility...what is the proper dps lost? 

It's fine man, I'm not going to change guilds when I'm pretty happy where I am. And we're not that bad anyway, we should finish heroic in a week or two, we just waste a lot of time doing farm instead of progress wiping. There's no burnout with a chill schedule. Besides, 1/11 M is not a significant step-up. I could be wrong, but I assume that mythic Garothi is probably easier than heroic Coven.

Paying dps for mobility is what I remember a blue post said around 7.1.5. It's not my argument, I'm just not hardcore enough to care about not doing the uber maximum dps. In terms of math, there's no correct amount of lost dps for mobility. It's always going to be subjective.

BM is easy enough that I can perform the rotation almost perfectly without having to really think much about it, which leaves me a lot of mindspace to focus on dodging boss mechanics and timers and all that stuff. Simply put, I do more dps as BM than I do as MM. Maybe I just haven't practiced MM enough, but I enjoy playing BM significantly more so I don't mind having "lower potential dps"... as long as it's not like 40% less or something really crazy like that.

Edited by Khallid

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16 hours ago, Khallid said:

 

Paying dps for mobility is what I remember a blue post said around 7.1.5. It's not my argument, I'm just not hardcore enough to care about not doing the uber maximum dps. In terms of math, there's no correct amount of lost dps for mobility. It's always going to be subjective.

 

That question wasn't directly pointed at you.  Just in general. I am also referring to the same blue post or interview.  And it aint subjective. The developers are thinking this way. MM gets a premium b/c of lack of mobility. 

So to the Hunter community, if we are forced to live with that...what is the proper premium? 

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5 hours ago, Banard said:

That question wasn't directly pointed at you.  Just in general. I am also referring to the same blue post or interview.  And it aint subjective. The developers are thinking this way. MM gets a premium b/c of lack of mobility. 

So to the Hunter community, if we are forced to live with that...what is the proper premium? 

Whenever MM and BM is roughly the same on an encounter where there is a fair amount of movement. Since most fights have movement, i would say this is a fair balance. BM's DPS is going to be the same no matter the circumstances. MM's will go down with movement so they just need enough of a buff that for the 2/3 of the fight they do get to be still, they can make up for the loss during the 1/3 where they are moving and have lower DPS in order to be on par with a BM. MM may not perform as well when moving but when they stand still they should be able to catch up to a BM hunter (for proper class balance). Obviously they will pull way ahead on patchwerk style fights but those are rare. If they are beating us at fights where there is movement, then i would argue that either we are being taxed too much for the benefit of being able to move while on rotation or MM is too OP. 

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That's also vague. It's not like MM can't do anything while moving, the pros will try to time their movement with Arcane Shot and Marked Shot and position themselves adequately to not have to move during Aimed Shot. Small amounts of movement can often be quickly dealt with using Disengage or Cheetah. I don't think there's an easy way to calculate dps loss from movement, other than maybe comparing parses between patchwerk and non-patchwerk fights.

BM's dps penalty from movement can't be calculated precisely to a correct objective amount. At some point you just have to make a judgement call. Blizzard probably has a number in mind; it seems to be around 10% or so.

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The argument holds some water, I think: mobility is absolutely a resource, and you can imagine that if BM did equal dps to MM in all situations, few people would choose MM (class fantasy etc etc). The problem is that mobility can't be quantified, so translating it into a quantifiable loss feels unfair.  At least on the surface, in the gut. 

I'm not a game designer, so I won't bother trying to put a number on it.

As an aside of sorts, I will say that BM playstyle does feel unique in comparison to MM, which seems to me just a "caster with a bow." (Not throwing shade, am deeply envious of good marks hunters). That's another reason why I refuse to swap.

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