Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
skullytor

Destro stats irrelevant?

39 posts in this topic

So i've been playing around with destro a lot lately, having been a devout affliction lock for several tiers. obviously destro is preferable in many fights, with several bosses being obvious aff winners (thok, for example). one of my complaints about a destro/aff approach is the difference in the stat priority, making it difficult to switch between them without a reforge mount readily available. so, that being said, i started dickin around with simcraft to see if i could find an optimal middle ground. long story short: it didnt matter at all. running a destro sim with the EXACT same stat priority as aff (massive haste, little less mastery, 6k crit) sim'd out at 265k dps. i flipped to a pure destro blend of heavy mastery, moderate crit, and as little haste as i could (yes, i regemmed, rechanted, whole spcheele), and sim'd out at 266k. now, i understand thats single target, and mastery is obviously the winner in any multi-add situation, but the fact that it made less than .3% of a dps shift on a single target shocked me. i triple checked each sim to reinforce the data and had the same result repeatedly. things to note: ilvl is low, only 552, and this spread may become more prominent as gear scales. also, im missing the amp trink, still using toxic totem and breath of the hydra, which may or may not be relevant. i just found this.....almost upsetting. stat weights are supposed to make a damn difference, not just allow a pure playstyle choice. that being said, its nice to know that i can flip destro and  fire off a chaos bolt in 2.2 seconds. i enjoy that, especially on fights like garrosh's intermission. 

        Has any1 else experienced similar results/findings? 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SimC is a fairly useless way of knowing if something will work out.

 

Secondary stats are not as huge a deal as most people think they are, I've ranked top ten with a full haste build destro, I've ranked top 20 with a full crit build aff. Game play is 90% of your DPS.

 

I don't know who told you that aff was "massive haste" but please tell them to stop spreading bad information. Mastery is hands down the king stat for all three specs, aff you only take haste to 9337 or 13737 depending on your gear.

 

How do you have 6k crit as aff? I don't even have 6k crit as Destro, I have like 3100 crit as aff. It sounds like your gear is horribly itemized if you're still having 6k crit after getting rid of all you can in aff. 

 

That said, no I have no experienced similar results/findings. But that's because I stopped using SimC a long time ago.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Statistically I think the sims are working out to make the weights irrelevant over the course of multiple encounters, though mastery probably provides the least variance among actual results.

 

That said, it assumes you aren't being a clown and actually follow the DPS priority so I think what we really need is a GIANT BANNER AD on IV that proclaims this in multiple languages. Can it be done?

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can confirm this moderately well through first hand experience. Our 554 lock and I were in the same raid group last week due to needing to fill spots, and, after looking at his DPS and crapping my pants at the 340k he was consistently putting out compared to my 140k, I armoried him. His stats? 30% raid buffed haste, ~4% less mastery than me, and ~4% lower crit than me. I proceeded to scratch my head and simply ask "What the F****?!?". I know my play could improve, but i'm a 535 ilvl lock w/o my legendary cape/meta.... and yet still, I can't touch those numbers, despite the seemingly retarded stat priority, he's still 200k dps ahead of me. So yeah..... I don't think it makes any difference at all, as long as you are getting good mastery.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

20 ilvls of gear is astronomical. I know that on a single target fight, no matter how well I play, I'm not gonna come anywhere close to the numbers Zag and Locky put out, and they're only about 10-15 above me. When I was 490 I got into a ToES with a 520 lock who literally pulled double my DPS the entire time. Granted, I'd just started playing again, but he still just had that big of a gear advantage. If you as a 535 lock were matching him as a 554 lock, you're either Sparkuggz or I'd have some serious concerns about his playstyle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The gear is a big part, but looking at the sims (that I'm too lazy to bother tweaking/rerunning myself), the difference is really amounting to statistical noise/RNG. The RPPM haste scaling dramatically knocked back the value of haste for all specs and baking T15 along with some other changes made crit not so shit.

 

Then again you have to take most of what I say with a grain of salt because I usually post here when I've been drinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can confirm this moderately well through first hand experience. Our 554 lock and I were in the same raid group last week due to needing to fill spots, and, after looking at his DPS and crapping my pants at the 340k he was consistently putting out compared to my 140k, I armoried him. His stats? 30% raid buffed haste, ~4% less mastery than me, and ~4% lower crit than me. I proceeded to scratch my head and simply ask "What the F****?!?". I know my play could improve, but i'm a 535 ilvl lock w/o my legendary cape/meta.... and yet still, I can't touch those numbers, despite the seemingly retarded stat priority, he's still 200k dps ahead of me. So yeah..... I don't think it makes any difference at all, as long as you are getting good mastery.

I'd love to know/see how he's pulling that kind of dps. I'm at 559 and I'm only doing about 250kish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd love to know/see how he's pulling that kind of dps. I'm at 559 and I'm only doing about 250kish

 

Gameplay and trinkets/weapon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can confirm this moderately well through first hand experience. Our 554 lock and I were in the same raid group last week due to needing to fill spots, and, after looking at his DPS and crapping my pants at the 340k he was consistently putting out compared to my 140k, I armoried him. His stats? 30% raid buffed haste, ~4% less mastery than me, and ~4% lower crit than me. I proceeded to scratch my head and simply ask "What the F****?!?". I know my play could improve, but i'm a 535 ilvl lock w/o my legendary cape/meta.... and yet still, I can't touch those numbers, despite the seemingly retarded stat priority, he's still 200k dps ahead of me. So yeah..... I don't think it makes any difference at all, as long as you are getting good mastery.

 

340k sustained dps is really out of the world , unless it's a multidot fight lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

340k DPS is absolutely achievable at a 555-560 ilvl. Maybe not on every single fight, but it's totally possible on some of them. Protectors you definitely should be close to that. On Iron Juggernaut this last week we killed the boss in something like 3:30. With my 559 ilvl, I spent the first 1:30 of that over 400k on Skada. Why? I had a solid opener with two monster Chaos Bolts (we have a warrior in our group), and I followed that with amazing RNG and 4 back-to-back KTT int procs. 

 

Any multi-target fight has the potential. Any fight with lots of Havoc use has that potential. Being in a guild of people doing really good DPS has that potential (the quicker the boss dies, the bigger % of your DPS the opener is). Good RNG will do it for you. Getting procs exactly when you need them does wonders. Then, of course, there's always meter padding and having a rogue tricks you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

on protectors 340k is a joke , i was thinking like iron jugg / malkorok , with no padding and stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of people are just looking at ilvl but they forget some keyitems. Those are the 4 setitems, the weapon and 2 SoO trinkets. 

A warlock with an ilvl of 550 and with a these items will do more dmg(or at least the same), than a warlock with ilvl 560, but without these things. I was running ilvl 563 for while, but had such bad luck with trinkets and set pieces (1 setpiece-.-). Then i had luck and got my second trinket and 3 setpieces in one run. After that my dmg has gone up by 20% at the same ilvl.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do currently have an soo weapon and trinks. Still missing my 4p. Granted I'm using a flex sword from Nazgrin, normal OH from IJ, flex pbi and lfr ktt so my trink procs are hurting me but not a 100k worth of dps. What fight did the lock pull 340k on? I didn't think about a fight like protectors where it's easy to smash as aff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps not 100k, but if  you exchange these items for normal-versions, you can pull ~20k more.

You also have to consider the length of the fight. In a 4:20 minute fight you will do more dmg, than in a 6 min fight

Edited by Silverman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

20 ilvls of gear is astronomical. I know that on a single target fight, no matter how well I play, I'm not gonna come anywhere close to the numbers Zag and Locky put out, and they're only about 10-15 above me. When I was 490 I got into a ToES with a 520 lock who literally pulled double my DPS the entire time. Granted, I'd just started playing again, but he still just had that big of a gear advantage. If you as a 535 lock were matching him as a 554 lock, you're either Sparkuggz or I'd have some serious concerns about his playstyle.

 

if 20 ilvls is 200k DPS, I quit, cause there is no hope for my DPS this xpack.

 

on protectors 340k is a joke , i was thinking like iron jugg / malkorok , with no padding and stuff.

 

I'm talking dark shaman.

 

340k DPS is absolutely achievable at a 555-560 ilvl. Maybe not on every single fight, but it's totally possible on some of them. Protectors you definitely should be close to that. On Iron Juggernaut this last week we killed the boss in something like 3:30. With my 559 ilvl, I spent the first 1:30 of that over 400k on Skada. Why? I had a solid opener with two monster Chaos Bolts (we have a warrior in our group), and I followed that with amazing RNG and 4 back-to-back KTT int procs. 

 

Any multi-target fight has the potential. Any fight with lots of Havoc use has that potential. Being in a guild of people doing really good DPS has that potential (the quicker the boss dies, the bigger % of your DPS the opener is). Good RNG will do it for you. Getting procs exactly when you need them does wonders. Then, of course, there's always meter padding and having a rogue tricks you.

 

Dark shaman. Iron jug was about 300k dps, maybe a bit lower. I didn't save the meters.

 

340k sustained dps is really out of the world , unless it's a multidot fight lol

 

Dark shaman, but it only gave him about 60k DPS more than usual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is a good point I run 25m and we end up kind of carrying some of the dps which is frustrating and it creates longer fights. And I am trying to get the nornal version of my last few items unfortunately I've only seen pbi drop once and lost it. Nazgrim and Shamans haven't dropped their respective items yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

200k means you're doing 140k on Dark Shaman, which means you really, really need to get us some logs to look at.

 

If I do 275k on Iron Juggernaut, about 15k of that is my cloak. Another 15k is going to be multistrike procs. PBI is responsible for at least 25-30k. Take those away, I'm down to about 215k. Now, put me back at a 535 item level, and I'm going to lose probably 40k (assuming you don't put me back with UVLS and Demo like I had in ToT). We've now determined that 110k of my DPS has come from those key upgrades plus general gear upgrading. If I can get my last tier piece and a weapon (still using flex MH/OH), that could definitely put me up to 300k. That'd give us a total of 125k.

 

Gear makes a huge difference in your potential DPS. Playstyle makes a bigger difference in your actual DPS.

 

Edit: This is also assuming a short fight. Because our 10-man no DPS under 225k on IJ without dying (our mage did 290k this week), the boss dies very quickly and the opener counts for a lot more. If that fight went on for 6 minutes, my DPS would also decrease.

Edited by Kazistrasza

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-x06ks0jettw5zpgp/sum/damageDone/?s=6341&e=6691#Lockybalboá

 

My 422k parse on Heroic ten man Dark Shaman. At the time this was a top 10 parse, it's around 30 something now. Dark Shaman isn't a hard fight to do mad DPS on, you just need to be doing the right job in it. Open on the two dogs and the two bosses really hard then after the bosses are moved apart, 95% ignore the boss and spend all your time on the Oozes. If you're doing normal and the bosses stay together, then just havoc like mad and multi-dot.

 

 

20ilvl is a major change, I think most of you are grossly underestimating what a few key items can mean. 540-560ilvl means 9k mastery, 5k int, 2-4k haste, 2-3k crit, and 2500+ raw SP from a weapon.

 

A heroic ToT staff had 10k SP on it, my HWF staff from Sha has 15k. 5k SP is HUGE.

 

A cloak is a cool 15-25k DPS, the meta is less powerful for destro but still a solid DPS gain.

 

Then you add in the fact that the ToT trinkets got kind of gutted in 5.4 and that the SoO trinkets are AMAZING and you're looking at HUGE number changes.

 

There is a guy in my guild that I'm training to be a warlock, right now he has perfect fight break downs. His DPS is right on target for what it should be, his spell useage, his game play, everything. But he only does ~150-180k ST where as I pull 310-335k. He's only 10ilvl behind me. Why? Because I have a heroic KTT, flex PBI, and my 4pc, AND 10ilvl on him. Give him my gear, he'll do 305-315k DPS.

 

Game play is your #1 DPS increase, no matter what. But gear does put a cap on how much DPS you can do and exponentially raises the skill you need in order to do top end DPS. The more gear you have, the easier it gets and the higher the DPS cap of your toon goes. It also isn't 100% ilvl, it's the RIGHT items. You put a 575 warlock with no 4pc, BBoY, and the cleave trinket Vs. a 555ilvl warlock  with 4pc, KTT, and PBI - the 555ilvl warlock will wipe the floor with the other guy. It won't even be a fight, it'll be a massacre.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Game play is your #1 DPS increase, no matter what. But gear does put a cap on how much DPS you can do and exponentially raises the skill you need in order to do top end DPS. The more gear you have, the easier it gets and the higher the DPS cap of your toon goes. It also isn't 100% ilvl, it's the RIGHT items. You put a 575 warlock with no 4pc, BBoY, and the cleave trinket Vs. a 555ilvl warlock  with 4pc, KTT, and PBI - the 555ilvl warlock will wipe the floor with the other guy. It won't even be a fight, it'll be a massacre.

 

Now, give the 575 guy a KFC Mashed Potato Bowl, and you have yourself a contest. But it seems like the bolded part should be the first response to every stats post. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

How do you have 6k crit as aff? I don't even have 6k crit as Destro, I have like 3100 crit as aff. It sounds like your gear is horribly itemized if you're still having 6k crit after getting rid of all you can in aff. 

 

That said, no I have no experienced similar results/findings. But that's because I stopped using SimC a long time ago.

 

found this interesting. yes i have a fair amout of crit on my gear. this isn't my main so i've had minimal chances for loot, ive taken more of a ilvl>itemization approach. obviously reforging out of as much crit as possible for my aff ms. 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormrage/%C3%96blivion/simple

13k hate, 11k master, 4600 crit. 

 

with those trinks i have pretty lack-luster burst, around 450k, but i find a stable 250k easy to sustain in affliction. destro is much less reliable based on trink+chaos bolt. i find the rng of destro less forgiving than affliction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait did they bring back the mashed potato bowl?

I have a feeling he was eluding to my trinket chart where I claim a KFC Mashed Potato Bowl is of higher priority to equip than the Cleave trinket.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i find the rng of destro less forgiving than affliction.

There is no RNG built into the Destruction spec.  There are no procs that happen off of random things.  The only RNG comes from the 2pc (don't hold your breath for it) and your trinkets. 

 

RNG of Affliction includes Nightfall procs, 2pc bonus, and 4pc bonus as well as trinkets. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

340k sustained dps is really out of the world , unless it's a multidot fight lol

This isn't really true.  Even with lackluster RNG, 340k is easily pulled off on a fight like Heroic Malkorok with minimal cleaving to the add.  On Normal Thok, I pulled off 377k as Demonology with the only potential cleaving done to the Jailer which I'm pretty sure I ignored.  Gear matters, trust me.  Look at the difference between a 574 weapon and a 580 weapon.  I think it's somewhere around 1500 spell power.  Most people don't even think about that value...that's like 2000 Mastery!  Weapon > Trinkets > everything else.  SUCH a huge difference in potential DPS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Starym

       
      Better stats and scaling in PvE, worse scaling in PvP and more changes are live.
      Update: It seems the procc rate was buffed as well and we'll find out the exact details in the hotfix notes later today.

      After the big announcement about the Artifact Knowledge cap being reduced, today we're getting a bit of an offset (or consolation prize for some) as the "infinity trait" aka Concordance of the Legionfall just got buffed, at least in PvE. The changes are up already on live servers.
      Placeholder for tweet 867444216745439232 It did not get the base buff PvP, however, and the scaling actually got nerfed:
      Placeholder for tweet 867444363655233536 We also got some clarifications on when exactly the PvP tuning comes into effect:
      Placeholder for tweet 867445986959818752 And in the most recent update, we found out the procc rate was buffed as well, but we'll be getting more details later:
      Placeholder for tweet 867452620767600640
    • By Jovovich
      World of Warcraft - [Horde][US-Arthas]Unhuman - Francais - 10/10M - www.unhuman.ca
      Unhuman est à la recherche de nouveaux visages qui seraient intéressés à joindre ses rangs!
      Forum: http://forum.unhuman.ca/forum/7-recrutement/
      Raiding:
      - [Raid] Starlight Bros NH:10/10M EN:7/7M ToV:3/3M 3soirs Lundi, Mardi et Jeudi 7hpm à 10h30pm (EST)
      - [Raid] Statis NH:8/10M EN:7/7M ToV:3/3H 2soirs Mercredi et Jeudi 7hpm à 10hpm (EST)
      - [Raid] Casual as Fuck NH:9/10H 1soir Mercredi 7hpm à 10h30hpm 
      PvP:
      - [PvP] Unhuman RBG: 1600 rating, 1soir Mercredi des 8hpm (EST)
      - [PvP] Bientot un 2ieme groupes, nous sommes presentement 22 joueurs
      Communauté:
      - Plus de  400 accounts
      Unhuman est plus qu'une guilde de raiding performante, c'est aussi la plus grosse communauté Francophone sur World of Warcraft US. Nous comptons présentement plus de 400 accounts actifs. Depuis sa création en 2006, Unhuman cherche à offrir à ses raiders un environnement de jeu qui favorise la progression et ce avec des joueurs d'excellent calibre. Nous sommes constamment à la recherche de nouveaux joueurs que ce soit PVE ou PVP, mais aussi des masters du Pet Battles, des champions de l'Archéologie ou peu importe ce qui vous branche ingame. Vous êtes donc assuré de trouver ce que vous cherchez chez nous peu importe votre style de jeu.
      Pour toutes questions...
      - http://unhuman.ca/
      - Jovovich-Arthas, Guild Master
      - Kaiser-Arthas, Officier
    • By Jovovich
      World of Warcraft - [Horde][US-Arthas]Unhuman - French - 10/10M - www.unhuman.ca
      Unhuman is RECRUITING!
      Forum: http://forum.unhuman.ca/forum/7-recrutement/
      Raiding:
      - [Raid] Starlight Bros NH:10/10M EN:7/7M ToV:3/3M 3day Monday, Tuesday and Thursday 7hpm to 10h30pm (EAST)
      - [Raid] Statis NH:8/10H EN:7/7M ToV:3/3H 2day Wednesday and Thursday 7hpm to 10hpm (EAST)
      - [Raid] Casual as Fuck NH:9/10H 1day Wednesday 7hpm to 10h30hpm 
       
      PvP:
      - [PvP] Unhuman RBG: 1600 rating, 1day Wednesday starting at 8hpm (EAST)
      - [PvP] Soon a second group with 22 players
       
      Community:
      - More than 400 account
      Unhuman is a performing raiding guild with multiple raid groups, it's one of the biggest, for not saying the biggest one, french community on World of Warcraft US. We have over 400 active accounts. Unhuman has been created in December 2006 and will continue to live for a long time, Unhuman is trying to give to our raiders everything they need to be focus only on good progression!. Unhuman is always looking for new players of all kind, PvE or PvP, even with Battle pets or Archeologists or anything else you can do in the game....You will be sure to find your way with Unhuman!
      For any question...
      - http://unhuman.ca/
      - Jovovich-Arthas, Guild Master
      - Kaiser-Arthas, Officier
    • By Starym

       
      Mythic+ scaling, major Arms Warr changes, another brawl with the blues and more on this week's PTR.
      Another new week on the PTR and another batch of development notes. Mythic + difficulties will scale a little more steeply as the buff to mobs health and damage will go up by 10% instead of the 8 so far. We also have some significant changes to a few classes again, with Arms Warriors getting the biggest and Marksmanship and Beast Mastery Hunters getting Honor Talent tweaks. There are also new legendaries and T20 tweaks, a new concert at the Darkmoon Faire and there's another skirmish with the blues this weekend. We also got the raid testing schedule for the weekend, featuring 4 mythic bosses and an open LFR.
      Lore (source)
      Hi everyone! There’s a few things to call out for this PTR update:
      First, we’re continuing iteration on 7.2.5 class changes, and this build has some pretty substantial changes for a couple of specs. Arms Warriors in particular have a lot of updates and revisions, and both Marksmanship and Beast Mastery Hunters have several changes to their Honor Talents.
      We’re also continuing to iterate on Tier 20 set bonuses, and have added several new Legendary items in this build. Once the PTR is up (or shortly thereafter), you should be able to find the new Legendaries on Flaskataur in Dalaran if you’d like to give them a try.
      We’ve turned on the Darkmoon Faire for this week as there’s a new band in town! The concert event starts every hour on the half hour. We’d like to get some testing and feedback, so please let us know what you think!
      This build also has a tweak to Mythic Keystone difficulty. Specifically, the amount of health and damage that enemy creatures get from each additional difficulty level is increasing from 8% health and damage to 10% per keystone level. When we increased the overall difficulty of Mythic+ dungeons in 7.2, we didn't fully account for the increase in power that players would get from their new Artifact Traits. That hasn't been a major problem just yet, but once the Tomb of Sargeras raid opens and the maximum item level from drops increases, everyone’s going to get a LOT stronger in a hurry, which will quickly compound the issue. We're making this change to ensure that things don’t get too out of hand at the top end of the spectrum.
      Lastly, we’d like to do another Skirmish with the Blues this week to gather some data on where PvP balance currently sits on the PTR to assist with PvP tuning. We’re scheduling this for Friday, May 26 from 2 PM to 4 PM Pacific time (5 PM to 7 PM Eastern). Any data we can get at this stage will be extremely helpful, so we hope you’ll join us.
      Thanks again everyone, and happy testing!
      Previous dev notes (May 16).
    • By Starym

       
      Last weekend's raid testing was cancelled, but it's back this weekend! Four Mythic bosses will be checked out in Tomb of Sargeras and the raid will be open in Raid Finder on Saturday and Sunday.
      You can also check out our own previews and videos of the bosses getting tested:
      Goroth Demonic Inquisition Sisters of the Moon Mistress Sassz'ine
        Skordyn (source)
      On Thursday and Friday, May 25-26, we will be conducting Mythic raid testing of Tomb of Sargeras bosses.
      Thursday, May 25
      Goroth - Mythic Tomb of Sargeras
      13:00 PST (16:00 EST, 22:00 CEST)
      Demonic Inquisition - Mythic Tomb of Sargeras
      14:00 PST (17:00 EST, 23:00 CEST)
      Friday, May 26
      Sisters of the Moon - Mythic Tomb of Sargeras
      13:00 PST (16:00 EST, 22:00 CEST)
      Mistress Sassz'ine - Mythic Tomb of Sargeras
      14:00 PST (17:00 EST, 23:00 CEST)
      After testing concludes on Friday, we plan to open Raid Finder Tomb of Sargeras over the weekend.
      As always, this testing schedule is very fluid and subject to the realities of a PTR environment. We might have to change the time of a testing session, change the bosses being tested, or cancel a test entirely, due to bugs, server hardware issues, etc. Keep an eye on this forum for the latest information, and thank you in advance for testing and providing feedback.
      Q: How do I get into the raid zone?
      A: In Dalaran, Orgrimmar, or Stormwind, you may speak to Nexus-Lord Donjon Rade Sr. in order to teleport into the raid zone while it is open for testing. (The option to teleport into a zone will not be available when the zone is not open for testing.)
      Q: What character should I use to test the raid?
      A: Whichever you prefer. We will be scaling players' effective level to 110 for raid testing, and their item level to an appropriate threshold for the encounter(s) being tested. For 7.2 raid testing, we'll be granting players all the new 7.2 artifact traits IF players have done the quest to reveal those new traits. Complete the Broken Shore intro experience in order to access this quest.
      Q: How long does testing last?
      A: The primary purpose of testing is to give us the information we need to balance the encounters, evaluate how mechanics are playing out in practice, and identify bugs. Once we're satisfied that we've received that information for a given boss, we'll be shutting down testing. Usually this takes anywhere from 45 minutes to 2 hours, but there are no guarantees.