Jump to content
FORUMS
Sign in to follow this  
skullytor

Destro stats irrelevant?

Recommended Posts

So i've been playing around with destro a lot lately, having been a devout affliction lock for several tiers. obviously destro is preferable in many fights, with several bosses being obvious aff winners (thok, for example). one of my complaints about a destro/aff approach is the difference in the stat priority, making it difficult to switch between them without a reforge mount readily available. so, that being said, i started dickin around with simcraft to see if i could find an optimal middle ground. long story short: it didnt matter at all. running a destro sim with the EXACT same stat priority as aff (massive haste, little less mastery, 6k crit) sim'd out at 265k dps. i flipped to a pure destro blend of heavy mastery, moderate crit, and as little haste as i could (yes, i regemmed, rechanted, whole spcheele), and sim'd out at 266k. now, i understand thats single target, and mastery is obviously the winner in any multi-add situation, but the fact that it made less than .3% of a dps shift on a single target shocked me. i triple checked each sim to reinforce the data and had the same result repeatedly. things to note: ilvl is low, only 552, and this spread may become more prominent as gear scales. also, im missing the amp trink, still using toxic totem and breath of the hydra, which may or may not be relevant. i just found this.....almost upsetting. stat weights are supposed to make a damn difference, not just allow a pure playstyle choice. that being said, its nice to know that i can flip destro and  fire off a chaos bolt in 2.2 seconds. i enjoy that, especially on fights like garrosh's intermission. 

        Has any1 else experienced similar results/findings? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SimC is a fairly useless way of knowing if something will work out.

 

Secondary stats are not as huge a deal as most people think they are, I've ranked top ten with a full haste build destro, I've ranked top 20 with a full crit build aff. Game play is 90% of your DPS.

 

I don't know who told you that aff was "massive haste" but please tell them to stop spreading bad information. Mastery is hands down the king stat for all three specs, aff you only take haste to 9337 or 13737 depending on your gear.

 

How do you have 6k crit as aff? I don't even have 6k crit as Destro, I have like 3100 crit as aff. It sounds like your gear is horribly itemized if you're still having 6k crit after getting rid of all you can in aff. 

 

That said, no I have no experienced similar results/findings. But that's because I stopped using SimC a long time ago.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Statistically I think the sims are working out to make the weights irrelevant over the course of multiple encounters, though mastery probably provides the least variance among actual results.

 

That said, it assumes you aren't being a clown and actually follow the DPS priority so I think what we really need is a GIANT BANNER AD on IV that proclaims this in multiple languages. Can it be done?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can confirm this moderately well through first hand experience. Our 554 lock and I were in the same raid group last week due to needing to fill spots, and, after looking at his DPS and crapping my pants at the 340k he was consistently putting out compared to my 140k, I armoried him. His stats? 30% raid buffed haste, ~4% less mastery than me, and ~4% lower crit than me. I proceeded to scratch my head and simply ask "What the F****?!?". I know my play could improve, but i'm a 535 ilvl lock w/o my legendary cape/meta.... and yet still, I can't touch those numbers, despite the seemingly retarded stat priority, he's still 200k dps ahead of me. So yeah..... I don't think it makes any difference at all, as long as you are getting good mastery.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

20 ilvls of gear is astronomical. I know that on a single target fight, no matter how well I play, I'm not gonna come anywhere close to the numbers Zag and Locky put out, and they're only about 10-15 above me. When I was 490 I got into a ToES with a 520 lock who literally pulled double my DPS the entire time. Granted, I'd just started playing again, but he still just had that big of a gear advantage. If you as a 535 lock were matching him as a 554 lock, you're either Sparkuggz or I'd have some serious concerns about his playstyle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The gear is a big part, but looking at the sims (that I'm too lazy to bother tweaking/rerunning myself), the difference is really amounting to statistical noise/RNG. The RPPM haste scaling dramatically knocked back the value of haste for all specs and baking T15 along with some other changes made crit not so shit.

 

Then again you have to take most of what I say with a grain of salt because I usually post here when I've been drinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can confirm this moderately well through first hand experience. Our 554 lock and I were in the same raid group last week due to needing to fill spots, and, after looking at his DPS and crapping my pants at the 340k he was consistently putting out compared to my 140k, I armoried him. His stats? 30% raid buffed haste, ~4% less mastery than me, and ~4% lower crit than me. I proceeded to scratch my head and simply ask "What the F****?!?". I know my play could improve, but i'm a 535 ilvl lock w/o my legendary cape/meta.... and yet still, I can't touch those numbers, despite the seemingly retarded stat priority, he's still 200k dps ahead of me. So yeah..... I don't think it makes any difference at all, as long as you are getting good mastery.

I'd love to know/see how he's pulling that kind of dps. I'm at 559 and I'm only doing about 250kish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can confirm this moderately well through first hand experience. Our 554 lock and I were in the same raid group last week due to needing to fill spots, and, after looking at his DPS and crapping my pants at the 340k he was consistently putting out compared to my 140k, I armoried him. His stats? 30% raid buffed haste, ~4% less mastery than me, and ~4% lower crit than me. I proceeded to scratch my head and simply ask "What the F****?!?". I know my play could improve, but i'm a 535 ilvl lock w/o my legendary cape/meta.... and yet still, I can't touch those numbers, despite the seemingly retarded stat priority, he's still 200k dps ahead of me. So yeah..... I don't think it makes any difference at all, as long as you are getting good mastery.

 

340k sustained dps is really out of the world , unless it's a multidot fight lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

340k DPS is absolutely achievable at a 555-560 ilvl. Maybe not on every single fight, but it's totally possible on some of them. Protectors you definitely should be close to that. On Iron Juggernaut this last week we killed the boss in something like 3:30. With my 559 ilvl, I spent the first 1:30 of that over 400k on Skada. Why? I had a solid opener with two monster Chaos Bolts (we have a warrior in our group), and I followed that with amazing RNG and 4 back-to-back KTT int procs. 

 

Any multi-target fight has the potential. Any fight with lots of Havoc use has that potential. Being in a guild of people doing really good DPS has that potential (the quicker the boss dies, the bigger % of your DPS the opener is). Good RNG will do it for you. Getting procs exactly when you need them does wonders. Then, of course, there's always meter padding and having a rogue tricks you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of people are just looking at ilvl but they forget some keyitems. Those are the 4 setitems, the weapon and 2 SoO trinkets. 

A warlock with an ilvl of 550 and with a these items will do more dmg(or at least the same), than a warlock with ilvl 560, but without these things. I was running ilvl 563 for while, but had such bad luck with trinkets and set pieces (1 setpiece-.-). Then i had luck and got my second trinket and 3 setpieces in one run. After that my dmg has gone up by 20% at the same ilvl.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do currently have an soo weapon and trinks. Still missing my 4p. Granted I'm using a flex sword from Nazgrin, normal OH from IJ, flex pbi and lfr ktt so my trink procs are hurting me but not a 100k worth of dps. What fight did the lock pull 340k on? I didn't think about a fight like protectors where it's easy to smash as aff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps not 100k, but if  you exchange these items for normal-versions, you can pull ~20k more.

You also have to consider the length of the fight. In a 4:20 minute fight you will do more dmg, than in a 6 min fight

Edited by Silverman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

20 ilvls of gear is astronomical. I know that on a single target fight, no matter how well I play, I'm not gonna come anywhere close to the numbers Zag and Locky put out, and they're only about 10-15 above me. When I was 490 I got into a ToES with a 520 lock who literally pulled double my DPS the entire time. Granted, I'd just started playing again, but he still just had that big of a gear advantage. If you as a 535 lock were matching him as a 554 lock, you're either Sparkuggz or I'd have some serious concerns about his playstyle.

 

if 20 ilvls is 200k DPS, I quit, cause there is no hope for my DPS this xpack.

 

on protectors 340k is a joke , i was thinking like iron jugg / malkorok , with no padding and stuff.

 

I'm talking dark shaman.

 

340k DPS is absolutely achievable at a 555-560 ilvl. Maybe not on every single fight, but it's totally possible on some of them. Protectors you definitely should be close to that. On Iron Juggernaut this last week we killed the boss in something like 3:30. With my 559 ilvl, I spent the first 1:30 of that over 400k on Skada. Why? I had a solid opener with two monster Chaos Bolts (we have a warrior in our group), and I followed that with amazing RNG and 4 back-to-back KTT int procs. 

 

Any multi-target fight has the potential. Any fight with lots of Havoc use has that potential. Being in a guild of people doing really good DPS has that potential (the quicker the boss dies, the bigger % of your DPS the opener is). Good RNG will do it for you. Getting procs exactly when you need them does wonders. Then, of course, there's always meter padding and having a rogue tricks you.

 

Dark shaman. Iron jug was about 300k dps, maybe a bit lower. I didn't save the meters.

 

340k sustained dps is really out of the world , unless it's a multidot fight lol

 

Dark shaman, but it only gave him about 60k DPS more than usual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is a good point I run 25m and we end up kind of carrying some of the dps which is frustrating and it creates longer fights. And I am trying to get the nornal version of my last few items unfortunately I've only seen pbi drop once and lost it. Nazgrim and Shamans haven't dropped their respective items yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

200k means you're doing 140k on Dark Shaman, which means you really, really need to get us some logs to look at.

 

If I do 275k on Iron Juggernaut, about 15k of that is my cloak. Another 15k is going to be multistrike procs. PBI is responsible for at least 25-30k. Take those away, I'm down to about 215k. Now, put me back at a 535 item level, and I'm going to lose probably 40k (assuming you don't put me back with UVLS and Demo like I had in ToT). We've now determined that 110k of my DPS has come from those key upgrades plus general gear upgrading. If I can get my last tier piece and a weapon (still using flex MH/OH), that could definitely put me up to 300k. That'd give us a total of 125k.

 

Gear makes a huge difference in your potential DPS. Playstyle makes a bigger difference in your actual DPS.

 

Edit: This is also assuming a short fight. Because our 10-man no DPS under 225k on IJ without dying (our mage did 290k this week), the boss dies very quickly and the opener counts for a lot more. If that fight went on for 6 minutes, my DPS would also decrease.

Edited by Kazistrasza

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-x06ks0jettw5zpgp/sum/damageDone/?s=6341&e=6691#Lockybalboá

 

My 422k parse on Heroic ten man Dark Shaman. At the time this was a top 10 parse, it's around 30 something now. Dark Shaman isn't a hard fight to do mad DPS on, you just need to be doing the right job in it. Open on the two dogs and the two bosses really hard then after the bosses are moved apart, 95% ignore the boss and spend all your time on the Oozes. If you're doing normal and the bosses stay together, then just havoc like mad and multi-dot.

 

 

20ilvl is a major change, I think most of you are grossly underestimating what a few key items can mean. 540-560ilvl means 9k mastery, 5k int, 2-4k haste, 2-3k crit, and 2500+ raw SP from a weapon.

 

A heroic ToT staff had 10k SP on it, my HWF staff from Sha has 15k. 5k SP is HUGE.

 

A cloak is a cool 15-25k DPS, the meta is less powerful for destro but still a solid DPS gain.

 

Then you add in the fact that the ToT trinkets got kind of gutted in 5.4 and that the SoO trinkets are AMAZING and you're looking at HUGE number changes.

 

There is a guy in my guild that I'm training to be a warlock, right now he has perfect fight break downs. His DPS is right on target for what it should be, his spell useage, his game play, everything. But he only does ~150-180k ST where as I pull 310-335k. He's only 10ilvl behind me. Why? Because I have a heroic KTT, flex PBI, and my 4pc, AND 10ilvl on him. Give him my gear, he'll do 305-315k DPS.

 

Game play is your #1 DPS increase, no matter what. But gear does put a cap on how much DPS you can do and exponentially raises the skill you need in order to do top end DPS. The more gear you have, the easier it gets and the higher the DPS cap of your toon goes. It also isn't 100% ilvl, it's the RIGHT items. You put a 575 warlock with no 4pc, BBoY, and the cleave trinket Vs. a 555ilvl warlock  with 4pc, KTT, and PBI - the 555ilvl warlock will wipe the floor with the other guy. It won't even be a fight, it'll be a massacre.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Game play is your #1 DPS increase, no matter what. But gear does put a cap on how much DPS you can do and exponentially raises the skill you need in order to do top end DPS. The more gear you have, the easier it gets and the higher the DPS cap of your toon goes. It also isn't 100% ilvl, it's the RIGHT items. You put a 575 warlock with no 4pc, BBoY, and the cleave trinket Vs. a 555ilvl warlock  with 4pc, KTT, and PBI - the 555ilvl warlock will wipe the floor with the other guy. It won't even be a fight, it'll be a massacre.

 

Now, give the 575 guy a KFC Mashed Potato Bowl, and you have yourself a contest. But it seems like the bolded part should be the first response to every stats post. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

How do you have 6k crit as aff? I don't even have 6k crit as Destro, I have like 3100 crit as aff. It sounds like your gear is horribly itemized if you're still having 6k crit after getting rid of all you can in aff. 

 

That said, no I have no experienced similar results/findings. But that's because I stopped using SimC a long time ago.

 

found this interesting. yes i have a fair amout of crit on my gear. this isn't my main so i've had minimal chances for loot, ive taken more of a ilvl>itemization approach. obviously reforging out of as much crit as possible for my aff ms. 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormrage/%C3%96blivion/simple

13k hate, 11k master, 4600 crit. 

 

with those trinks i have pretty lack-luster burst, around 450k, but i find a stable 250k easy to sustain in affliction. destro is much less reliable based on trink+chaos bolt. i find the rng of destro less forgiving than affliction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait did they bring back the mashed potato bowl?

I have a feeling he was eluding to my trinket chart where I claim a KFC Mashed Potato Bowl is of higher priority to equip than the Cleave trinket.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i find the rng of destro less forgiving than affliction.

There is no RNG built into the Destruction spec.  There are no procs that happen off of random things.  The only RNG comes from the 2pc (don't hold your breath for it) and your trinkets. 

 

RNG of Affliction includes Nightfall procs, 2pc bonus, and 4pc bonus as well as trinkets. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

340k sustained dps is really out of the world , unless it's a multidot fight lol

This isn't really true.  Even with lackluster RNG, 340k is easily pulled off on a fight like Heroic Malkorok with minimal cleaving to the add.  On Normal Thok, I pulled off 377k as Demonology with the only potential cleaving done to the Jailer which I'm pretty sure I ignored.  Gear matters, trust me.  Look at the difference between a 574 weapon and a 580 weapon.  I think it's somewhere around 1500 spell power.  Most people don't even think about that value...that's like 2000 Mastery!  Weapon > Trinkets > everything else.  SUCH a huge difference in potential DPS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Starym
      We have another round of US realm connections coming on August 20th, as 30 servers get joined in various configurations! There will be no extended maintenance this time around, as all mergers will be executed within the regular period.

      We've recently covered the growing issue the community is having with these mergers, so you can check that out as well.
      Realm Connections (source)
      During a scheduled maintenance period planned for 7:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. PDT on Thursday, August 20, the following realm connections will be made:
      The Eldre’Thalas and Korialstrasz realms will join the Akama, Dragonmaw, and Mug’thol realms. The Korgath realm will join the Cenarius, Perenolde, and Cairne realms. The Blood Furnace, Mannoroth, and Nazjatar realms will join the Azgalor, Azshara, and Destromath realms. The Ursin, Andorhal, Scilla, and Zuluhed realms will join the Eonar and Velen realms. The Madoran, and Dawnbringer realms will join the Azuremyst and Staghelm realms. The Garona realm will join the Icecrown and Malygos realms. Hyjal will join Proudmoore. We are planning more realm connections for low-population realms, and we will post further notifications like this one in the coming weeks.
      Thank you!
       
    • By Starym
      There's been a long-running discussion going about the aesthetics (and general nature) of the Forsaken. Some players ask for options for less tattered clothes, fewer protruding bones and generally a more human look. Others, as you'd expect, think the Forsaken's visual identity as actual undead and more monster-like individuals is a core part of their uniqueness and should actually be even more emphasized. Redditor and artist Nez_the_Quiet is squarely in the second group, at least as far as this amazing art piece goes, as he's imagined Derek Proudmoore and Calia Menethil as more forsaken Forsaken!

      While the double eyeless version of Calia may be a bit much, generally they do show off a lot more character than their in-game counterparts, but with Calia at least that's very intentional, as both her character and origins are a lot more on the light side of things. Derek, on the other hand, just looks straight-up awesome as the boniest pirate ever.
      You can see the discussion about the Forsaken's looks and general themes, especially Calia's potential role (which, as we recently found out is NOT to be the leader of the Forsaken - at least not yet) over in the reddit thread.
    • By Stan
      The recent realm connections came with a few adverse side effects, it seems, as Blizzard merged realms of different languages, which creates issues on both ends of the spectrum.
      We've got hit up by @Scholer, who says the recent merge of Al'akir, Skullcrusher, Xavius with Burning Legion (EU) had a negative impact on gameplay because Burning Legion is mainly comprised of Polish players that do not talk English in the channels, so with the merge, there are English-speaking folks who do not understand Polish and vice versa.

      Here's how Trade Chat looks like after the recent realm connections.
      The issue has also been brought up on the official forums and Reddit, where the threads accrued hundreds of responses, the main concern being the recent connection of Frostmane and Aggra, a Portuguese realm.
      Currently, there are no other solutions other than buying a Paid Character Transfer off these realms, which can get quite expensive if you're planning on moving more characters from the affected realm to another.
      One Redditor calculated that it would cost a whopping 13,370 Euros to move the entire guild off the server!
      Has your server been affected by the recent realm connections? Let us know in the comments!
    • By Starym
      Happy second birthday to Battle for Azeroth! The current expansion has been very controversial and contentious, but it did experiment with quite a few new concepts that didn't make a fair portion of the player base happy, which they made very clear, and hopefully those interactions will make the game as a whole better in the future. The many layers of RNG were the biggest issue with players in BfA, as well as the massive alt-unfriendlyness aspect, and the story to a certain extent, but the many new power systems introduced do show a willingness for experimentation, which can only be a good thing in the long run. WoW Classic is also only 12 days away from it's first birthday.
      As BfA turns two today, it's getting close to being the longest-running expansion since WoW's inception , so let's take a look at just how close it is. Here are all the expansions durations, as well as the base game for comparison:
      0. Vanilla WoW

      2 Years, 1 Month, 24 Days (784 Days Total)
      The one that started it all, and was even remade as WoW Classic.
       
      1. Wrath of the Lich King

      Source.
      2 Years, 25 Days (755 Days Total)
      Many players' favorite period in WoW, WotLK was the first expansion to push a very strong story narrative and focus on the final villain throughout the entire expansion, giving the final confrontation atop Icecrown Citadel a lot more weight.
       
      2. Mists of Pandaria

      Source.
      2 Years, 19 Days (749 Days Total)
      A somewhat controversial expansion, as some players deemed it to be too childish, but it turned out to be one of WoW's best to date.
       
      3. Legion

      1 Year, 11 Months, 15 Days (714 Days Total)
      Standing alongside Wrath of the Lich King, this is most players' favorite WoW expansion, as we saw the culmination of the Burning Legion storyline unfold.
       
      4*. Battle for Azeroth

      2 Years (731 Days Total), Ongoing
       
      5. The Burning Crusade

      1 Year, 9 Months, 29 Days (668 Days Total)
      The first ever expansion, it opened up so many new avenues for the game to go in, and showed us how to fly in World of Warcraft.
       
      6. Cataclysm

      Source.
      1 Year, 9 Months, 19 Days (659 Days Total)
      While revamping the old world was a brilliant move, the expansion itself wasn't that popular, with a rather anticlimactic ending in the Dragon Soul raid.
       
      7. Warlords of Draenor

      Source.
      1 Year, 9 Months, 17 Days (656 Days Total)
      As a large part of WoD was scrapped, we never got to see the expansion as it was intended, but the introduction to player housing through garrisons was very welcome, and is definitely one of the ideas that should be iterated on come future expansions.
       
      WoW Classic is at 354 days, but technically isn't an expansion, so it doesn't get an entry, but it does make an interesting question to see when (if?) Classic TBC might be coming and how long it could last!
       
      So, the expansion winner is clearly WotLK, only 30 days away from beating Vanilla's record, with MoP in second place merely 6 days behind. Meanwhile, BfA is only 25 days away from beating WotLK, 54 from Vanilla, starting today, and will almost certainly become the longest running WoW period in history, unless Shadowlands surprises us and comes out before mid-September.
      And there we have it, we did some timewalking ourselves and took a look at the real numbers behind the expansions, as they most certainly differ from what it felt like while playing those same expansions  - who would have thought WoD was the shortest expansion (despite it only having 2 major content patches, that post 6.2 period felt like an eternity)! As we look forward to Shadowlands we can see the expansions generally do conform to the 2-year period, with some 3-4 month exceptions. Whether that's the correct amount of time, given enough content, or if we'll see some changes in the future, perhaps longer individual expansion times with more patches in them, remains to be seen.
      As BfA turns 2, we take a look at all the expansion and Vanilla durations and compare them!
    • By Stan
      Niya, one of the Soulbinds available to members of the Night Fae Covenant, provided an interesting Soulbind trait that mimicked the Shadowmeld Night Elf racial but was removed in the latest Beta Build.
      If you decide to join the Night Fae Covenant in Shadowlands, you will gain access to the Soulshape Signature Ability, which increases your Movement Speed by 50% and teleports you 15 yards forward on a short cooldown.
      Blizzard initially gave Niya the Sylvari Mantle trait that concealed you when Soulshape ended until you moved, so it worked just much like Shadowmeld, the Night Elf racial.
      In the latest Beta Build, they scrapped the ability entirely and replaced it with Run Without Tiring which makes you generate 5% of max health every 3 seconds when in Soulshape.
      Niya's Soulbind Path has been adjusted as follows:
      Row 1: Run Without Tiring (new) // Stay on the Move Row 4: Niya's Tools: Burrs // Niya's Tools: Poison // Niya's Tools: Herbs Row 7: Care Package // Swift Patrol Row 8: Grove Invigoration Note that you can only pick one Soulbind trait per row.
      Here's Niya's full Soulbind Path.

      Related News
      Wear Tier 3 Set Permanently in Shadowlands PvP Vendors Sell Conduits and Legendary Power Recipes Big Elemental Shaman Changes: Beta Build 35522 Marksmanship Hunter Changes: Beta Build 35522 Mage Changes: Beta Build 35522 New Death Knight and Priest Legendary Powers Legendary Powers Tuning: August 11th Hunters Can Tame Elegon in Shadowlands Priest Night Fae Covenant Ability Changes Shadowlands Pre-Patch Dev Notes Shadowlands Pre-Patch Event Preview Shadowlands Pre-Patch Now Available on the PTR 3 New Datamined Keystone Affixes Mythic Castle Nathria Raid Testing: August 13th - 17th
×
×
  • Create New...