skullytor

Destro stats irrelevant?

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So i've been playing around with destro a lot lately, having been a devout affliction lock for several tiers. obviously destro is preferable in many fights, with several bosses being obvious aff winners (thok, for example). one of my complaints about a destro/aff approach is the difference in the stat priority, making it difficult to switch between them without a reforge mount readily available. so, that being said, i started dickin around with simcraft to see if i could find an optimal middle ground. long story short: it didnt matter at all. running a destro sim with the EXACT same stat priority as aff (massive haste, little less mastery, 6k crit) sim'd out at 265k dps. i flipped to a pure destro blend of heavy mastery, moderate crit, and as little haste as i could (yes, i regemmed, rechanted, whole spcheele), and sim'd out at 266k. now, i understand thats single target, and mastery is obviously the winner in any multi-add situation, but the fact that it made less than .3% of a dps shift on a single target shocked me. i triple checked each sim to reinforce the data and had the same result repeatedly. things to note: ilvl is low, only 552, and this spread may become more prominent as gear scales. also, im missing the amp trink, still using toxic totem and breath of the hydra, which may or may not be relevant. i just found this.....almost upsetting. stat weights are supposed to make a damn difference, not just allow a pure playstyle choice. that being said, its nice to know that i can flip destro and  fire off a chaos bolt in 2.2 seconds. i enjoy that, especially on fights like garrosh's intermission. 

        Has any1 else experienced similar results/findings? 

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SimC is a fairly useless way of knowing if something will work out.

 

Secondary stats are not as huge a deal as most people think they are, I've ranked top ten with a full haste build destro, I've ranked top 20 with a full crit build aff. Game play is 90% of your DPS.

 

I don't know who told you that aff was "massive haste" but please tell them to stop spreading bad information. Mastery is hands down the king stat for all three specs, aff you only take haste to 9337 or 13737 depending on your gear.

 

How do you have 6k crit as aff? I don't even have 6k crit as Destro, I have like 3100 crit as aff. It sounds like your gear is horribly itemized if you're still having 6k crit after getting rid of all you can in aff. 

 

That said, no I have no experienced similar results/findings. But that's because I stopped using SimC a long time ago.

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Statistically I think the sims are working out to make the weights irrelevant over the course of multiple encounters, though mastery probably provides the least variance among actual results.

 

That said, it assumes you aren't being a clown and actually follow the DPS priority so I think what we really need is a GIANT BANNER AD on IV that proclaims this in multiple languages. Can it be done?

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Can confirm this moderately well through first hand experience. Our 554 lock and I were in the same raid group last week due to needing to fill spots, and, after looking at his DPS and crapping my pants at the 340k he was consistently putting out compared to my 140k, I armoried him. His stats? 30% raid buffed haste, ~4% less mastery than me, and ~4% lower crit than me. I proceeded to scratch my head and simply ask "What the F****?!?". I know my play could improve, but i'm a 535 ilvl lock w/o my legendary cape/meta.... and yet still, I can't touch those numbers, despite the seemingly retarded stat priority, he's still 200k dps ahead of me. So yeah..... I don't think it makes any difference at all, as long as you are getting good mastery.

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20 ilvls of gear is astronomical. I know that on a single target fight, no matter how well I play, I'm not gonna come anywhere close to the numbers Zag and Locky put out, and they're only about 10-15 above me. When I was 490 I got into a ToES with a 520 lock who literally pulled double my DPS the entire time. Granted, I'd just started playing again, but he still just had that big of a gear advantage. If you as a 535 lock were matching him as a 554 lock, you're either Sparkuggz or I'd have some serious concerns about his playstyle.

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The gear is a big part, but looking at the sims (that I'm too lazy to bother tweaking/rerunning myself), the difference is really amounting to statistical noise/RNG. The RPPM haste scaling dramatically knocked back the value of haste for all specs and baking T15 along with some other changes made crit not so shit.

 

Then again you have to take most of what I say with a grain of salt because I usually post here when I've been drinking.

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Can confirm this moderately well through first hand experience. Our 554 lock and I were in the same raid group last week due to needing to fill spots, and, after looking at his DPS and crapping my pants at the 340k he was consistently putting out compared to my 140k, I armoried him. His stats? 30% raid buffed haste, ~4% less mastery than me, and ~4% lower crit than me. I proceeded to scratch my head and simply ask "What the F****?!?". I know my play could improve, but i'm a 535 ilvl lock w/o my legendary cape/meta.... and yet still, I can't touch those numbers, despite the seemingly retarded stat priority, he's still 200k dps ahead of me. So yeah..... I don't think it makes any difference at all, as long as you are getting good mastery.

I'd love to know/see how he's pulling that kind of dps. I'm at 559 and I'm only doing about 250kish

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I'd love to know/see how he's pulling that kind of dps. I'm at 559 and I'm only doing about 250kish

 

Gameplay and trinkets/weapon. 

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Can confirm this moderately well through first hand experience. Our 554 lock and I were in the same raid group last week due to needing to fill spots, and, after looking at his DPS and crapping my pants at the 340k he was consistently putting out compared to my 140k, I armoried him. His stats? 30% raid buffed haste, ~4% less mastery than me, and ~4% lower crit than me. I proceeded to scratch my head and simply ask "What the F****?!?". I know my play could improve, but i'm a 535 ilvl lock w/o my legendary cape/meta.... and yet still, I can't touch those numbers, despite the seemingly retarded stat priority, he's still 200k dps ahead of me. So yeah..... I don't think it makes any difference at all, as long as you are getting good mastery.

 

340k sustained dps is really out of the world , unless it's a multidot fight lol

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340k DPS is absolutely achievable at a 555-560 ilvl. Maybe not on every single fight, but it's totally possible on some of them. Protectors you definitely should be close to that. On Iron Juggernaut this last week we killed the boss in something like 3:30. With my 559 ilvl, I spent the first 1:30 of that over 400k on Skada. Why? I had a solid opener with two monster Chaos Bolts (we have a warrior in our group), and I followed that with amazing RNG and 4 back-to-back KTT int procs. 

 

Any multi-target fight has the potential. Any fight with lots of Havoc use has that potential. Being in a guild of people doing really good DPS has that potential (the quicker the boss dies, the bigger % of your DPS the opener is). Good RNG will do it for you. Getting procs exactly when you need them does wonders. Then, of course, there's always meter padding and having a rogue tricks you.

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A lot of people are just looking at ilvl but they forget some keyitems. Those are the 4 setitems, the weapon and 2 SoO trinkets. 

A warlock with an ilvl of 550 and with a these items will do more dmg(or at least the same), than a warlock with ilvl 560, but without these things. I was running ilvl 563 for while, but had such bad luck with trinkets and set pieces (1 setpiece-.-). Then i had luck and got my second trinket and 3 setpieces in one run. After that my dmg has gone up by 20% at the same ilvl.

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I do currently have an soo weapon and trinks. Still missing my 4p. Granted I'm using a flex sword from Nazgrin, normal OH from IJ, flex pbi and lfr ktt so my trink procs are hurting me but not a 100k worth of dps. What fight did the lock pull 340k on? I didn't think about a fight like protectors where it's easy to smash as aff.

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Perhaps not 100k, but if  you exchange these items for normal-versions, you can pull ~20k more.

You also have to consider the length of the fight. In a 4:20 minute fight you will do more dmg, than in a 6 min fight

Edited by Silverman

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20 ilvls of gear is astronomical. I know that on a single target fight, no matter how well I play, I'm not gonna come anywhere close to the numbers Zag and Locky put out, and they're only about 10-15 above me. When I was 490 I got into a ToES with a 520 lock who literally pulled double my DPS the entire time. Granted, I'd just started playing again, but he still just had that big of a gear advantage. If you as a 535 lock were matching him as a 554 lock, you're either Sparkuggz or I'd have some serious concerns about his playstyle.

 

if 20 ilvls is 200k DPS, I quit, cause there is no hope for my DPS this xpack.

 

on protectors 340k is a joke , i was thinking like iron jugg / malkorok , with no padding and stuff.

 

I'm talking dark shaman.

 

340k DPS is absolutely achievable at a 555-560 ilvl. Maybe not on every single fight, but it's totally possible on some of them. Protectors you definitely should be close to that. On Iron Juggernaut this last week we killed the boss in something like 3:30. With my 559 ilvl, I spent the first 1:30 of that over 400k on Skada. Why? I had a solid opener with two monster Chaos Bolts (we have a warrior in our group), and I followed that with amazing RNG and 4 back-to-back KTT int procs. 

 

Any multi-target fight has the potential. Any fight with lots of Havoc use has that potential. Being in a guild of people doing really good DPS has that potential (the quicker the boss dies, the bigger % of your DPS the opener is). Good RNG will do it for you. Getting procs exactly when you need them does wonders. Then, of course, there's always meter padding and having a rogue tricks you.

 

Dark shaman. Iron jug was about 300k dps, maybe a bit lower. I didn't save the meters.

 

340k sustained dps is really out of the world , unless it's a multidot fight lol

 

Dark shaman, but it only gave him about 60k DPS more than usual.

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That is a good point I run 25m and we end up kind of carrying some of the dps which is frustrating and it creates longer fights. And I am trying to get the nornal version of my last few items unfortunately I've only seen pbi drop once and lost it. Nazgrim and Shamans haven't dropped their respective items yet.

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200k means you're doing 140k on Dark Shaman, which means you really, really need to get us some logs to look at.

 

If I do 275k on Iron Juggernaut, about 15k of that is my cloak. Another 15k is going to be multistrike procs. PBI is responsible for at least 25-30k. Take those away, I'm down to about 215k. Now, put me back at a 535 item level, and I'm going to lose probably 40k (assuming you don't put me back with UVLS and Demo like I had in ToT). We've now determined that 110k of my DPS has come from those key upgrades plus general gear upgrading. If I can get my last tier piece and a weapon (still using flex MH/OH), that could definitely put me up to 300k. That'd give us a total of 125k.

 

Gear makes a huge difference in your potential DPS. Playstyle makes a bigger difference in your actual DPS.

 

Edit: This is also assuming a short fight. Because our 10-man no DPS under 225k on IJ without dying (our mage did 290k this week), the boss dies very quickly and the opener counts for a lot more. If that fight went on for 6 minutes, my DPS would also decrease.

Edited by Kazistrasza

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http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-x06ks0jettw5zpgp/sum/damageDone/?s=6341&e=6691#Lockybalboá

 

My 422k parse on Heroic ten man Dark Shaman. At the time this was a top 10 parse, it's around 30 something now. Dark Shaman isn't a hard fight to do mad DPS on, you just need to be doing the right job in it. Open on the two dogs and the two bosses really hard then after the bosses are moved apart, 95% ignore the boss and spend all your time on the Oozes. If you're doing normal and the bosses stay together, then just havoc like mad and multi-dot.

 

 

20ilvl is a major change, I think most of you are grossly underestimating what a few key items can mean. 540-560ilvl means 9k mastery, 5k int, 2-4k haste, 2-3k crit, and 2500+ raw SP from a weapon.

 

A heroic ToT staff had 10k SP on it, my HWF staff from Sha has 15k. 5k SP is HUGE.

 

A cloak is a cool 15-25k DPS, the meta is less powerful for destro but still a solid DPS gain.

 

Then you add in the fact that the ToT trinkets got kind of gutted in 5.4 and that the SoO trinkets are AMAZING and you're looking at HUGE number changes.

 

There is a guy in my guild that I'm training to be a warlock, right now he has perfect fight break downs. His DPS is right on target for what it should be, his spell useage, his game play, everything. But he only does ~150-180k ST where as I pull 310-335k. He's only 10ilvl behind me. Why? Because I have a heroic KTT, flex PBI, and my 4pc, AND 10ilvl on him. Give him my gear, he'll do 305-315k DPS.

 

Game play is your #1 DPS increase, no matter what. But gear does put a cap on how much DPS you can do and exponentially raises the skill you need in order to do top end DPS. The more gear you have, the easier it gets and the higher the DPS cap of your toon goes. It also isn't 100% ilvl, it's the RIGHT items. You put a 575 warlock with no 4pc, BBoY, and the cleave trinket Vs. a 555ilvl warlock  with 4pc, KTT, and PBI - the 555ilvl warlock will wipe the floor with the other guy. It won't even be a fight, it'll be a massacre.

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Game play is your #1 DPS increase, no matter what. But gear does put a cap on how much DPS you can do and exponentially raises the skill you need in order to do top end DPS. The more gear you have, the easier it gets and the higher the DPS cap of your toon goes. It also isn't 100% ilvl, it's the RIGHT items. You put a 575 warlock with no 4pc, BBoY, and the cleave trinket Vs. a 555ilvl warlock  with 4pc, KTT, and PBI - the 555ilvl warlock will wipe the floor with the other guy. It won't even be a fight, it'll be a massacre.

 

Now, give the 575 guy a KFC Mashed Potato Bowl, and you have yourself a contest. But it seems like the bolded part should be the first response to every stats post. 

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How do you have 6k crit as aff? I don't even have 6k crit as Destro, I have like 3100 crit as aff. It sounds like your gear is horribly itemized if you're still having 6k crit after getting rid of all you can in aff. 

 

That said, no I have no experienced similar results/findings. But that's because I stopped using SimC a long time ago.

 

found this interesting. yes i have a fair amout of crit on my gear. this isn't my main so i've had minimal chances for loot, ive taken more of a ilvl>itemization approach. obviously reforging out of as much crit as possible for my aff ms. 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormrage/%C3%96blivion/simple

13k hate, 11k master, 4600 crit. 

 

with those trinks i have pretty lack-luster burst, around 450k, but i find a stable 250k easy to sustain in affliction. destro is much less reliable based on trink+chaos bolt. i find the rng of destro less forgiving than affliction.

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Wait did they bring back the mashed potato bowl?

I have a feeling he was eluding to my trinket chart where I claim a KFC Mashed Potato Bowl is of higher priority to equip than the Cleave trinket.

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i find the rng of destro less forgiving than affliction.

There is no RNG built into the Destruction spec.  There are no procs that happen off of random things.  The only RNG comes from the 2pc (don't hold your breath for it) and your trinkets. 

 

RNG of Affliction includes Nightfall procs, 2pc bonus, and 4pc bonus as well as trinkets. 

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340k sustained dps is really out of the world , unless it's a multidot fight lol

This isn't really true.  Even with lackluster RNG, 340k is easily pulled off on a fight like Heroic Malkorok with minimal cleaving to the add.  On Normal Thok, I pulled off 377k as Demonology with the only potential cleaving done to the Jailer which I'm pretty sure I ignored.  Gear matters, trust me.  Look at the difference between a 574 weapon and a 580 weapon.  I think it's somewhere around 1500 spell power.  Most people don't even think about that value...that's like 2000 Mastery!  Weapon > Trinkets > everything else.  SUCH a huge difference in potential DPS.

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      Throughout the discussions regarding Azerite Armor, there’s been a lot of talk about how you earn Azerite pieces from Mythic+ dungeons. Players have told us – and we agree – that the process of earning Azerite Armor through Mythic+ feels overly based on luck, and that there isn’t enough control in the players’ hands. Even with our bad luck protection systems in place, the sheer number of potential Azerite pieces you can get from the weekly chest means that trying to get ahold of a specific piece feels hopeless. That’s a problem we want to solve, and give you some control over the Azerite gear you earn through Mythic+. So here’s what we’re working on for Tides of Vengeance:
      First, we’re adding a new (as yet unnamed) currency, which you’ll earn from your weekly Mythic+ chest as well as from scrapping (or disenchanting) epic-quality Azerite Armor. This currency is rewarded in addition to the item in the chest (which can no longer be an Azerite piece), and the amount you earn will scale up exponentially based on the highest level Keystone you’ve completed. For example, completing a level 10 Keystone will reward you with about three times as much as clearing a level 7. Similarly, scrapping higher-item-level Azerite pieces will give you significantly higher amounts of this currency than lower-level pieces.

      To spend that currency, we’re bringing back an old friend: Thaumaturge Vashreen. He’ll have two main types of items for sale. The first are caches that reward a random dungeon Azerite Armor piece for a given slot (helm, shoulders, or chest). They’ll be separated out by item level as well (at 355, 370, and 385), with higher item level caches requiring significantly more currency to purchase. But we recognize that with six or more options per slot, this may still not be enough control for high-end players who want to be able to work towards a specific piece that perfectly complements their build. Thus, Vashreen will also offer Item Level 385 versions of the specific dungeon Azerite Armor pieces for each class, sold at a premium.
      We’re still nailing down the exact numbers, but our goal for tuning this new currency is that you’ll be able to purchase one of the Azerite caches that lines up roughly with the item level of the gear you’re getting from your Mythic+ runs every two or three weeks, with the specific 385 pieces as long-term goals for top players.
      Overall, we believe that this change will improve things in a lot of different ways:
      Mythic+ players of all skill levels will now have a clear path to upgrading their Azerite slots High-end Mythic+ players will have a way to target specific Azerite pieces to optimize their setups Duplicate or unwanted Azerite pieces from other sources (such as raiding) now have some additional value The piece of gear in your weekly chest will have a more reliable item level You should see all of this hitting the Tides of Vengeance PTR sometime in the next week or so. We really do appreciate your feedback, and believe that this, in addition to the new traits and other improvements coming to the Azerite system in Tides of Vengeance, will help ease a lot of the concerns about Azerite Armor in Mythic+ and as a whole.