Affliction Warlock 8.3

[Furty 51]

On 7/21/2018 at 9:44 AM, Guest Guest20000000 said:

The suggestion for talents is incorrect currently on live.  Tier one should be either Nightfall or Drain Soul.  Tier 2 is Siphon Life.  Tier 4 is Phantom Singularity.  If you do the math damage divided by time (this is what is dps) you will see I am correct.

Can you explain your math for Nightfall or Drain Soul being the best choice for any Antorus fight?

[Furty 51]

On 7/18/2018 at 2:03 PM, arednie said:

Thank you very much. Any chance you might add PVP talent option recommendations soon? xx

They should be live now, as a heads up.

[SacredBlaze 1]

Will you add a explanation of when to use Haunt in our rotation, particulary at our opening. I´m guessing we will replace Shadow Bolt precast for Haunt precast and then just use it on CD but its just a wild guess.

[ATU 2]

Hi.

You never include in your rotation Haunt....... you need to... 

[SacredBlaze 1]

Greetings,

I would like to make a contribution to the Vile Taint (VT) V.S Phantom Syngularity (PS) situation from a PVE stand point.

Previously, we were told that VT was much stronger than the other two talents regardless of Single/Cleave/Multiple Targets. Now it says that PS should be " our default talent in virtually all situations." 

So I made my own tests under the following conditions:

1. Three minute duration fights, so it's fair for both PS (4 casts) and VT (11 casts).

2. No full rotation, just using the abilities on CD (no Agony, Corruption Unstable Affliction, CD's etc).

3. Generally trying to only have those two talents as the main source of damage although if it's not it will be displayed (VT which needs Souls Fragments from Agony/Corruption).

For a TL;DR go to the botton of the post. These were the results:

- For Three Target Combat:

Vile Taint:                                                           Phantom Singularity:

Vile Taint was about 45% stronger just from a pure damage stand point in AoE.

- For Single Target Combat:

Vile Taint:                                                          Phantom Singularity:

Vile Taint was about 54% stronger just from a pure damage stand point in Single Target.

These results show that Vile Taint deals significantly more damage than PS in both situations.. Now, there are some considerations from both talents you have to keep in mind before you choose:

1. Cast: While PS is a instant cast, VT has a 1,3s cast time. But remember PS does trigger a GCD while VT cast time can be reduced by haste. Meaning that with high Haste stats the true difference between casting PS or VT will be casting while moving.

2. Cost: PS is completely a free cast ability. VT costs a valuable soul shard which means your up-time of Unstable Affliction (UA) won't be as high.. Furthermore this kind of affects the Deathbolt build since you have one less UA to add to the mix. In VT defense however, the damage of a single VT vs UA is not that far apart. Unstable Affliction deals around 20% more damage than BT from a single target point of view. So using that Sould Shard in VT hurts, but not as much as you might think (yes I'm aware UA also gives you +10% extra damage to the target).

3. Usability: PS needs a target, furthermore it needs a target that won't die in the following 15s in order to deal it's full damage.. Otherwise huge damage potential is lost (not very cool for low m+ or low health adds in raids). VT has a "skill shot" component where you have to cast the place where the ability will be cast (similar to Shadow's Fury) meaning you have to make sure you will land the ability within the 1,3s cast time before the target moves.

Both usabilities have their pros and cons and ultimately it becomes a personal choice. Myself, I don't really bother because I was a Survival in legion and we have to skill shot Caltrops + Fire Trap at the boss/adds feet all the time.. it feels natural to me. But, if the enemy is flying, or it's tricky to click the ground it might hurt your rotation (case in point Kin'Garoth)

4. CDs: PS has over two times the CD of VT (45s VS 20s) so you have to choose wisely which will be your target, as stated before you'll need to find a high enough health target to cast PS to get the full 15s damage. VT is just a cast in adds without bothering too much (except if they move out of the skill shot zone). While dealing with M+ adds I like to cast a Seed of corruption followed by a Shadow's Fury and while stuned a VT so the Seed of corruption explodes and now all adds have both Corruption and VT.

Having less CD gives you more damage potential yes, but it also means you'll have to invest more time in your rotation to cast the ability so while having a lower CD sounds great and all, it could be troublesome.

4. Utility: PS has a mediocre utility in the form of self-healing. From a Single Target PS I got healed just from 1k health after the DoT expired which is not impressive at all considering we have around 25k+ health, however in AoE the healing this effect is more noticeable, around 3k for 4 targets (still low IMPO). VT offers a strong usefull CC in the form of a 30% snare for the duration of the DoT, really handy in M+ for kitting strats.

So TL;DR, while Phantom Singularity is easier to use and more accesible it offers way less damage than Vile Taint. Furthermore PS self healing utility pales in front of VT's 30% snare so if I had to choose between both of them I would definetly pick VT over PS no questions asked. Yes it's a bit harder, costier and messier to use but, to me, the rewards are clearly worthy in both Single target and AoE.

P.S: Maybe I'm overlooking something obvious about PS damage or usage I haven't factored yet but.. I'm not quite sure why the guide switched to favor PS as the better talent "in virtually all situations." over VT.

Edited July 23, 2018 by SacredBlaze

[Valks 2,373]

47 minutes ago, SacredBlaze said:

P.S: Maybe I'm overlooking something obvious about PS damage or usage I haven't factored yet but.. I'm not quite sure why the guide switched to favor PS as the better talent "in virtually all situations." over VT.

Furty will respond to this in the near future, but I'd like to just say a few things:

• There's absolutely no need to test this as you did. Simulations are there for a reason and they can give you thousands upon thousands of iterations of the full rotation, rather than just testing two spells' damage output.
• You are ignoring the GCD cost of VT. That's an extra 7 GCDs that could be used elsewhere, on other spells.
• It currently sims 6% lower for me on personal sims using RaidBots (VT).

Like I said, Furty will respond with more detail if needed, but these were the things that really stuck out in your testing for me.

[SacredBlaze 1]

4 hours ago, Blainie said:

Furty will respond to this in the near future, but I'd like to just say a few things:

• There's absolutely no need to test this as you did. Simulations are there for a reason and they can give you thousands upon thousands of iterations of the full rotation, rather than just testing two spells' damage output.
• You are ignoring the GCD cost of VT. That's an extra 7 GCDs that could be used elsewhere, on other spells.
• It currently sims 6% lower for me on personal sims using RaidBots (VT).

Like I said, Furty will respond with more detail if needed, but these were the things that really stuck out in your testing for me.

Yeah most likely. I just pointed this out because to me, at least so far is not even a contest. VT is superior in every way.. Now I'm probably wrong since the SIMs says so (no sarcasm) but I'm not quite sure how you can mess PS rotation.. Basically is: use it on CD.

[Furty 51]

On 7/22/2018 at 4:26 PM, SacredBlaze said:

Will you add a explanation of when to use Haunt in our rotation, particulary at our opening. I´m guessing we will replace Shadow Bolt precast for Haunt precast and then just use it on CD but its just a wild guess.

 

15 hours ago, ATU said:

Hi.

You never include in your rotation Haunt....... you need to... 

This was part of the rotation before but was removed - I'll make sure it's added back to the guide.

8 hours ago, SacredBlaze said:

Greetings,

I would like to make a contribution to the Vile Taint (VT) V.S Phantom Syngularity (PS) situation from a PVE stand point.

Previously, we were told that VT was much stronger than the other two talents regardless of Single/Cleave/Multiple Targets. Now it says that PS should be " our default talent in virtually all situations." 

So I made my own tests under the following conditions:

1. Three minute duration fights, so it's fair for both PS (4 casts) and VT (11 casts).

2. No full rotation, just using the abilities on CD (no Agony, Corruption Unstable Affliction, CD's etc).

3. Generally trying to only have those two talents as the main source of damage although if it's not it will be displayed (VT which needs Souls Fragments from Agony/Corruption).

For a TL;DR go to the botton of the post. These were the results:

- For Three Target Combat:

Vile Taint:                                                           Phantom Singularity:

Vile Taint was about 45% stronger just from a pure damage stand point in AoE.

- For Single Target Combat:

Vile Taint:                                                          Phantom Singularity:

Vile Taint was about 54% stronger just from a pure damage stand point in Single Target.

These results show that Vile Taint deals significantly more damage than PS in both situations.. Now, there are some considerations from both talents you have to keep in mind before you choose:

1. Cast: While PS is a instant cast, VT has a 1,3s cast time. But remember PS does trigger a GCD while VT cast time can be reduced by haste. Meaning that with high Haste stats the true difference between casting PS or VT will be casting while moving.

2. Cost: PS is completely a free cast ability. VT costs a valuable soul shard which means your up-time of Unstable Affliction (UA) won't be as high.. Furthermore this kind of affects the Deathbolt build since you have one less UA to add to the mix. In VT defense however, the damage of a single VT vs UA is not that far apart. Unstable Affliction deals around 20% more damage than BT from a single target point of view. So using that Sould Shard in VT hurts, but not as much as you might think (yes I'm aware UA also gives you +10% extra damage to the target).

3. Usability: PS needs a target, furthermore it needs a target that won't die in the following 15s in order to deal it's full damage.. Otherwise huge damage potential is lost (not very cool for low m+ or low health adds in raids). VT has a "skill shot" component where you have to cast the place where the ability will be cast (similar to Shadow's Fury) meaning you have to make sure you will land the ability within the 1,3s cast time before the target moves.

Both usabilities have their pros and cons and ultimately it becomes a personal choice. Myself, I don't really bother because I was a Survival in legion and we have to skill shot Caltrops + Fire Trap at the boss/adds feet all the time.. it feels natural to me. But, if the enemy is flying, or it's tricky to click the ground it might hurt your rotation (case in point Kin'Garoth)

4. CDs: PS has over two times the CD of VT (45s VS 20s) so you have to choose wisely which will be your target, as stated before you'll need to find a high enough health target to cast PS to get the full 15s damage. VT is just a cast in adds without bothering too much (except if they move out of the skill shot zone). While dealing with M+ adds I like to cast a Seed of corruption followed by a Shadow's Fury and while stuned a VT so the Seed of corruption explodes and now all adds have both Corruption and VT.

Having less CD gives you more damage potential yes, but it also means you'll have to invest more time in your rotation to cast the ability so while having a lower CD sounds great and all, it could be troublesome.

4. Utility: PS has a mediocre utility in the form of self-healing. From a Single Target PS I got healed just from 1k health after the DoT expired which is not impressive at all considering we have around 25k+ health, however in AoE the healing this effect is more noticeable, around 3k for 4 targets (still low IMPO). VT offers a strong usefull CC in the form of a 30% snare for the duration of the DoT, really handy in M+ for kitting strats.

So TL;DR, while Phantom Singularity is easier to use and more accesible it offers way less damage than Vile Taint. Furthermore PS self healing utility pales in front of VT's 30% snare so if I had to choose between both of them I would definetly pick VT over PS no questions asked. Yes it's a bit harder, costier and messier to use but, to me, the rewards are clearly worthy in both Single target and AoE.

P.S: Maybe I'm overlooking something obvious about PS damage or usage I haven't factored yet but.. I'm not quite sure why the guide switched to favor PS as the better talent "in virtually all situations." over VT.

I'm unable to reproduce any plausible situation where Vile Taint is the best option for raids. Without getting straight to numbers, here's a few points to consider: 

1. PS has a duration, which is helpful in many situations (e.g. Hasabel)
2. The Soul Shard cost shouldn't be overlooked - it can create situations where Vile Taint has to be delayed, which isn't uncommon, as it is a relatively low priority ability even when used perfectly. This actually affects the cooldown difference a lot, particularly when it comes to Deathbolt usage, as you mentioned, as VT will end up being delayed for many GCDs. 
3. The instant cast is a really nice bonus with Life Tap being gone
4. Neither talent offers significant utility, but the healing is unquestionably more useful in most situations (slows are a dime a dozen,  30% is pretty bad as far as slows go) 

As an aside, if you want to run your own comparisons for the future, don't use 3-minute tests as a basis for evaluating performance unless this is truly the fight length you want to measure (e.g. speed kills, M+ bosses).

These are just talking points, of course. The most important metric, and the only one that really matters for this comparisons, is the numbers themselves: 

Patchwerk Sim

Hectic Add Cleave Sim (3 Boss Targets)

 

[SacredBlaze 1]

I'm definetly overlooking something in my tests then. Thanks for the reply ?

[Furty 51]

2 minutes ago, SacredBlaze said:

Yeah most likely. I just pointed this out because to me, at least so far is not even a contest. VT is superior in every way.. Now I'm probably wrong since the SIMs says so (no sarcasm) but I'm not quite sure how you can mess PS rotation.. Basically is: use it on CD.

To be clear as well, if you wanted ever convince someone that simulations lack context or finesse, I would understand. As someone that has had many tiers competing for World First and figuring things out before videos and guides are even posted, I can say that more often than not, the Discord eggheads are wrong on their first few batches of sims, because the sim is only as good as the APL. They are still valuable as evidence of strength, however, and in this instance all the other available data seems to suggest this to be correct. The main empirical evidence we have available now that the patch has been out for a week is Warcraft logs. You'll notice even on heavy cleave fights Vile Taint doesn't appear to be used by anyone. 

Here's the link to the full list of bosses if you want to peruse for academic purposes.

Good luck!

 

[NecroWar666 0]

hi thanks for the guide but I have a question about the legendries that confuses me why is prydaz amulet is good ? defensive wise is not a priority and DPS wise I instead along withHood of Eternal Disdain  I use   Streten's Sleepless Shackles  which is in B tier , and gives much better damage ? 

I didn't try the other legendries yet .

thanks 

[Furty 51]

2 hours ago, NecroWar666 said:

hi thanks for the guide but I have a question about the legendries that confuses me why is prydaz amulet is good ? defensive wise is not a priority and DPS wise I instead along withHood of Eternal Disdain  I use   Streten's Sleepless Shackles  which is in B tier , and gives much better damage ? 

I didn't try the other legendries yet .

thanks 

Try simming your character on RaidBots.com using the "Top Gear" option. While guides provide general truths, sometimes there can be small differences on a character by character basis (this is due to stats, item level, talents, and so on). 

[Guest Khan]

Couple things.  If I'm torn between two talents, I always check what the top locks are using.  Right now it's almost 100% Phantom.  Saves me re-inventing the wheel.

Second, has anyone come up with numbers to use in Pawn for stats?  

 

[Furty 51]

9 minutes ago, Guest Khan said:

Couple things.  If I'm torn between two talents, I always check what the top locks are using.  Right now it's almost 100% Phantom.  Saves me re-inventing the wheel.

Second, has anyone come up with numbers to use in Pawn for stats?  

 

Is there a question here related to Phantom Singularity? 

Stat weights for pre-patch will not be posted.

[Guest Dashpops]

Is the Mythic+ section going to be properly updated? Currently the title reads "Affliction Warlock DPS Mythic+ Tips (BfA 8.0.1)" but all the information is outdated and from 7.3.5.

[Furty 51]

20 hours ago, Guest Dashpops said:

Is the Mythic+ section going to be properly updated? Currently the title reads "Affliction Warlock DPS Mythic+ Tips (BfA 8.0.1)" but all the information is outdated and from 7.3.5.

It will not be updated until Battle for Azeroth, owing to it being an enormous amount of time and effort.

[Guest Dashpops]

1 hour ago, Furty said:

It will not be updated until Battle for Azeroth, owing to it being an enormous amount of time and effort.

Perfectly understandable, but that part of the guide should lis 7.3.5 at the top imo

[Furty 51]

11 hours ago, Guest Dashpops said:

Perfectly understandable, but that part of the guide should lis 7.3.5 at the top imo

Ah, I see! I'll add a little disclaimer.

[Guest PanDoom]

I was reading the discussion over witch talent is better for raid fights, phantom syngularity or vile taint, and i am thinking: am i missing something ?
Espesialy for 1 target boss fights, isn't this just a REALY easy math problem ?

I would solve it like this:
Vile taint uses a soul shard and has the same cast time as unstable affliction so we can calculate the damage we get by casting one vile taint like this

Vile taint damage - Unstable affliction damage = netto damage gain by casting vile taint

Vile taint has a 20 second cooldown. knowing that we can calculate the DPS

Damage gain by casting vile taint / 20 = nett vile taint DPS

In short   (VT-UA)/20=nVT DPS
 

Calculating phantom syngularity is even easyer

phantom syngularity damage - 3/4shadowbolt = nett phantom syngularity    (phantom syngularity costs a global cooldown so we miss out on casting time for shadwobolt)

phantom syngularity has a cooldown of 45 sec so we can figure out the DPS

nett phantom syngularity/45 = nett phantom syngularity DPS

 

Am i missing something ? i am not yet level 60.

(sorry for my English, i am realy bad at languange)

[Furty 51]

23 hours ago, Guest PanDoom said:

I was reading the discussion over witch talent is better for raid fights, phantom syngularity or vile taint, and i am thinking: am i missing something ?
Espesialy for 1 target boss fights, isn't this just a REALY easy math problem ?

I would solve it like this:
Vile taint uses a soul shard and has the same cast time as unstable affliction so we can calculate the damage we get by casting one vile taint like this

Vile taint damage - Unstable affliction damage = netto damage gain by casting vile taint

Vile taint has a 20 second cooldown. knowing that we can calculate the DPS

Damage gain by casting vile taint / 20 = nett vile taint DPS

In short   (VT-UA)/20=nVT DPS
 

Calculating phantom syngularity is even easyer

phantom syngularity damage - 3/4shadowbolt = nett phantom syngularity    (phantom syngularity costs a global cooldown so we miss out on casting time for shadwobolt)

phantom syngularity has a cooldown of 45 sec so we can figure out the DPS

nett phantom syngularity/45 = nett phantom syngularity DPS

 

Am i missing something ? i am not yet level 60.

(sorry for my English, i am realy bad at languange)

There isn't really a discussion over which is better; currently, Phantom Singularity is superior for every fight in Antorus.

[Guest Spunk]

I'd like to add to the movement section, as I always do when teaching a new player, that instant abilities are free passes to move. Deathbolt, Agony, and Corruption in this case give a lot of time to reposition without costing GCDs.

[Valks 2,373]

8 hours ago, Guest Spunk said:

I'd like to add to the movement section, as I always do when teaching a new player, that instant abilities are free passes to move. Deathbolt, Agony, and Corruption in this case give a lot of time to reposition without costing GCDs.

I've let Furty know, thanks!

[Guest Nollfakultet]

Just want to add that Inevitable Demise works with Drain Soul ( Yes even the 100% damage increase after 20% health )

[Guest rince]

I´m trying to find info if the azerite traits stack and if they do, do they merge into one powerful buff or multiple buffs of te same type?

For example if you have three pcs of gear with the wracking brilliance trait, does this mean that every second shard you´ll get 3xINT boost as three seperate buffs? 

And do they always trigger on the same tick of agony or could it be that they are randomly triggered depending on if agony is spread to multiple targets or a single target?

[Guest rince]

9 hours ago, Guest rince said:

I´m trying to find info if the azerite traits stack and if they do, do they merge into one powerful buff or multiple buffs of te same type?

For example if you have three pcs of gear with the wracking brilliance trait, does this mean that every second shard you´ll get 3xINT boost as three seperate buffs? 

And do they always trigger on the same tick of agony or could it be that they are randomly triggered depending on if agony is spread to multiple targets or a single target?

I can answer my own questions as i got multiple pices with the wracking brilliance trait.

They stack.

They trigger at the same time

They are one single buff with the summarized total int from all Three traits(in my case as i have Three gears with it.