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Ehiztari

Prot Warrior Rotation Documentation

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At the risk of being off-topic, before I get started I want to add the red-on-deep-purple-or-blue-or-whatever-this-is text on this page is utterly illegible to anyone with colorblindness. I get a blurry glimmer that something is there, but I have to highlight it by selection to see the text.

It would be a good thing if someone in charge of the web page formatting would take a look at the standards for human interface design and opt for a bit more contrast there. Deep red on virtually ANY dark color is a no-no.

On to the topic at hand:

I'm aware that you have very competent experts in different classes, specs, and roles.

I'm becoming aware that being an expert in those things doesn't necessarily translate to being an expert at what amounts to technical writing.

The Protection Warrior Rotation Priority article is a hot mess.

  1. This
  2. That
  3. The Other
  4. And Another

But when X do Y and of course Z comes before the rest of it, and always do K and R and Q ....

A full priority list is not that difficult to set up, even with conditions on some of the priorities and it would greatly help readability if that page were ... I dunno the polite word for "unscrewed" but imagine that there is one.

  1. K (on cooldown)
  2. R (on proc only)
  3. Q (if you have enough rage)
  4. This (except if That is about to come off cooldown)
  5. That
  6. The Other (always on cooldown unless spec'd for Z)
  7. And Another (only if you won't cap rage)

Putting the conditions with the actions and adding ALL of the actions in the rotation is far more clear.

Obviously, I'm talking model rather than specifics here. I'm not the expert on Protection Warriors. I am, however, an expert on technical writing.

I'm also available to anyone who has the information they want to present but recognizes that they may not have the skills to present it well.

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15 hours ago, Ehiztari said:

A full priority list is not that difficult to set up, even with conditions on some of the priorities and it would greatly help readability if that page were ... I dunno the polite word for "unscrewed" but imagine that there is one.

The thing about Prot Warrior as well as other tank specs is that their priorities aren't as clear-cut as a DPS spec's. It's always about decision making based on the situation you find yourself in. For example, putting Demo Shout at the top of the priority list completely ignores the fact that it can be used both as a DPS and a defensive cooldown. While the guide says it should be cast on CD (with Booming voice), there are gonna be plenty situations where you want to save it. Treating it seperately from the rage generating rotation makes sense.

Personally, and this is really just my opinion, I find the presentation in the Prot warrior guide much easier to follow than the 15-point priority lists with countless whens and ifs you can see in the other guides. But hey, I'm not an expert ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by jinsu2301

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I'm not expressing "opinion" here - the document as written lists, for example, four actions in the single-target rotation and then goes on to say "always this first" and "of course this after this" - if those things need to be in the rotation, they need to be expressed as part of the rotation.

It isn't necessary to have a "15-point priority list" to take the six or seven actions that are given, four in a list, three in the paragraphs that follow and put them all in a common format.

Six or seven items in a list rather than four in the list and three or four in the following paragraphs would be far simpler to read than what is there now.

Edited by Ehiztari

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I do understand what you mean. It is easier to have a list than a written text (i think thats what you mean, isn't it?). In kind of a defensive playstile, a priority-list (not rotation!) would look like this:

  1. Cast Shield Block IconShield Block on cooldown.
  2. Cast Demoralizing Shout IconDemoralizing Shout on cooldown (when using Booming Voice IconBooming Voice talent).
    • Otherwise hold it back when big hits are incoming or high movement-situations.
  3. Cast Ignore Pain IconIgnore Pain if current rage > 30 and Ignore Pain's aura is absent.
  4. Cast Avatar IconAvatar on cooldown.
    • There are very few situation where you would hold it back to remove root/snare.
  5. Cast Shield Slam IconShield Slam on cooldown.
  6. Cast Thunder Clap IconThunder Clap on cooldown.
  7. Cast Revenge IconRevenge on proc.
  8. Cast Devastate IconDevastate.
  9. Cast Last Stand IconLast Stand and Shield Wall IconShield Wall when big hits are incoming (try not to pair them, often it's a wasting).

But as jinsu2301 already said, tanking is much more decision-making than healing or DPS. All the text written in the guide is to explain how you do good decisions.

Edited by Allseye

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Hi, Ehiztari! The post above by Allseye should greatly clarify things with regard to what order to press your buttons in, but as has been stated before, tanks these days do not have so much a rotation as a priority, which is constantly changing based on your health and active mitigation (along with those of your co-tank), cooldown usage and availability, boss positioning and movement requirements, instructions from your raid leader, and what is happening in the fight, all under time pressure and continuously filtered on the fly by your best judgement.

It's a lot to take in, and if you need a helping hand, these two addons can help considerably:

https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/ovale

and:

https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/ovale_tankscripts

They're by no means perfect or all-inclusive, but they do a decent job at assessing the situation and quickly suggesting the right buttons to press if you ever feel flustered. They also help build an understanding of how various abilities interact and synergize with one another, so after using these addons for a while, it becomes quite easy to play proficiently without them, which is always the goal.

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On 1/26/2019 at 2:52 PM, Larssen said:

Hi, Ehiztari! The post above by Allseye should greatly clarify things with regard to what order to press your buttons in, but as has been stated before, tanks these days do not have so much a rotation as a priority, which is constantly changing based on your health and active mitigation (along with those of your co-tank), cooldown usage and availability, boss positioning and movement requirements, instructions from your raid leader, and what is happening in the fight, all under time pressure and continuously filtered on the fly by your best judgement.

It's a lot to take in, and if you need a helping hand, these two addons can help considerably:

https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/ovale

and:

https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/ovale_tankscripts

They're by no means perfect or all-inclusive, but they do a decent job at assessing the situation and quickly suggesting the right buttons to press if you ever feel flustered. They also help build an understanding of how various abilities interact and synergize with one another, so after using these addons for a while, it becomes quite easy to play proficiently without them, which is always the goal.

I generally disadvise to use any addons with preset priority-recommendations as tank. But i think your right, to get a basic understandig it can be helpful. But as soon as there is a basic understandig, i recommend to drop such prefab ratation-helper. Instead i recommend to use some weakauras (or tellmewhen) icons to show uptime of shieldwall, last stand and shieldblock. In addition, I recommend to use a icon for IP-casting...but keep it simple.

Such addons with prefab rotations/priorities usually can't assess the situation, they don't know boss mechanics and when you have to save rage/shieldblock charges and so on. As protwarrior, we learn what the ability does and learn a fight. We are mitigation-tanks, so we have to preplan when to use what. No addon can tell you that in a good way :-).

In my opinion protwarrior is a fun class, i like it alot. But it's probably harder to master than any other tanking class. This is why there is so much text in the guide. Marok has  done a really good work with it and he covers so many aspects. But thats where it gets hard to understand. This is why there is an "Easy-Mode"-section to keep it clean for beginners.

 

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I'm gonna jump back in here and see if some specifics don't prompt someone to take action on the article in question.

Take a look at this part of the rotation instructions:
 

Quote

The overall goal is to generate as much Rage as possible by casting Rage-generating abilities, so that Rage can then be spent on active mitigation.

Cast  Shield Slam on cooldown.

It can be reset anytime you cast  Devastate,  Thunder Clap, or  Revenge, so watch out for these procs.

Cast  Thunder Clap on cooldown.

Cast  Revenge only if it is free.

Cast  Devastate.

 

Quote

Demoralizing Shout should be cast on cooldown (when using Booming Voice) and is technically first in the ability priority. Out of all your Rage-generating abilities, it generates the most Rage.

 

And then this:
 

Quote

 Avatar should be cast on cooldown as well, preferably right before casting  Demoralizing Shout.

 

The first one lists four abilities and gives them in order.

The second one lists an additional ability and claims that is is "technically first" as it generates the most Rage, but it is omitted from the first list (would be neither complicated nor difficult to understand to simply include it there).

More baffling is that while the second one says "first" the third one says to cast it after Avatar, which is also not listed in the primary rotation.

I simply do not see how it would be more confusing to list the rotation as this:
 

Quote

 

Cast Avatar on cooldown.

Cast Demoralizing Shot on cooldown (if you have Booming Voice talented).

Cast Shield Slam on cooldown.

continue original list as written

 

 

I'm not disputing the accuracy of the information provided.

Assuming the information provided for Avatar and Demoralizing Shout is correct, what I'm saying flat out is that this needs to be rewritten and this nonsense of looping back into a very short, very simple rotation as some sort of literary device needs to be eliminated. It's not clever. It's not helpful. It's not anything other than obfuscation of the information that the writer is supposed to be conveying to the reader.

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On 1/23/2019 at 4:49 AM, Allseye said:

I do understand what you mean. It is easier to have a list than a written text (i think thats what you mean, isn't it?). In kind of a defensive playstile, a priority-list (not rotation!) would look like this:

  1. Cast Shield Block IconShield Block on cooldown.
  2. Cast Demoralizing Shout IconDemoralizing Shout on cooldown (when using Booming Voice IconBooming Voice talent).
    • Otherwise hold it back when big hits are incoming or high movement-situations.
  3. Cast Ignore Pain IconIgnore Pain if current rage > 30 and Ignore Pain's aura is absent.
  4. Cast Avatar IconAvatar on cooldown.
    • There are very few situation where you would hold it back to remove root/snare.
  5. Cast Shield Slam IconShield Slam on cooldown.
  6. Cast Thunder Clap IconThunder Clap on cooldown.
  7. Cast Revenge IconRevenge on proc.
  8. Cast Devastate IconDevastate.
  9. Cast Last Stand IconLast Stand and Shield Wall IconShield Wall when big hits are incoming (try not to pair them, often it's a wasting).

But as jinsu2301 already said, tanking is much more decision-making than healing or DPS. All the text written in the guide is to explain how you do good decisions.

If this is what is intended by the existing article, I probably need to go back to school and spend some time working on my critical reading skills.

What I see in the existing article is this:

  • Cast 1 (on cooldown or reset).
  • Cast 2.
  • Cast 3 (on proc only).
  • Cast 4.
  • But of course, A (with a specific talent) is first before that.
  • And always remember that B should come before A.

At it's most basic level with no actual details as to what 1, 2, 3, 4, A, and B are it's pretty clear that this is nonsense. It takes a relatively simply six item list and shatters it into three pieces and then puts the pieces back together out of order and with self-contradictory notes.

It could easily be restated as simply this:

  • Cast B.
  • Cast A (with a specific talent).
  • Cast 1 (on cooldown or reset).
  • Cast 2.
  • Cast 3 (on proc only).
  • Cast 4.

Inserting the spell/ability names using these substitutions...

  • 1 = Shield Slam (on cooldown or reset)
  • 2 = Thunder Clap
  • 3 = Revenge
  • 4 = Devastate
  • A = Demoralizing Shout (with Booming Voice talent)
  • B = Avatar

...results in this priority list:

  • Cast Avatar on cooldown.
  • Cast Demoralizing Shout on cooldown if talented with Booming Voice.
  • Cast Shield Slam on cooldown or reset.
  • Cast Thunder Clap on cooldown.
  • Cast Revenge on proc only.
  • Cast Devastate on cooldown.

The problem with your post is that it looks nothing like that.

Even without the extra detail (which I applaud), you disregard the explicit prioritization of Avatar and Demoralizing Shout that are at the center of my complaint here.

Either Avatar and Demoralizing shout are legitimately higher priority than 1, 2, 3, and 4 in that list or they're not.

If they are, your explanation is assigning them to the wrong places in the priority list.

If they are not, the original article is wrong.

I can't see any other alternatives here, although I'll freely admit that there might be something I'm missing.

Again, I'm not evaluating the accuracy of the information presented.

I'm only evaluating how it is presented.

That there has been this much discussion on what amounts to a six item priority list by people who obviously do not have reading comprehension problems tells me immediately that as technical writing, this article fails to do what it's supposed to do - to explain in simple terms the prioirty list for a Prot Warrior's abilities (or for this subset, his rage-producing abilities).

Edited by Ehiztari

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19 hours ago, Ehiztari said:

If this is what is intended by the existing article, I probably need to go back to school and spend some time working on my critical reading skills.

What I see in the existing article is this:

  • Cast 1 (on cooldown or reset).
  • Cast 2.
  • Cast 3 (on proc only).
  • Cast 4.
  • But of course, A (with a specific talent) is first before that.
  • And always remember that B should come before A.

At it's most basic level with no actual details as to what 1, 2, 3, 4, A, and B are it's pretty clear that this is nonsense. It takes a relatively simply six item list and shatters it into three pieces and then puts the pieces back together out of order and with self-contradictory notes.

It could easily be restated as simply this:

  • Cast B.
  • Cast A (with a specific talent).
  • Cast 1 (on cooldown or reset).
  • Cast 2.
  • Cast 3 (on proc only).
  • Cast 4.

Inserting the spell/ability names using these substitutions...

  • 1 = Shield Slam (on cooldown or reset)
  • 2 = Thunder Clap
  • 3 = Revenge
  • 4 = Devastate
  • A = Demoralizing Shout (with Booming Voice talent)
  • B = Avatar

...results in this priority list:

  • Cast Avatar on cooldown.
  • Cast Demoralizing Shout on cooldown if talented with Booming Voice.
  • Cast Shield Slam on cooldown or reset.
  • Cast Thunder Clap on cooldown.
  • Cast Revenge on proc only.
  • Cast Devastate on cooldown.

The problem with your post is that it looks nothing like that.

Even without the extra detail (which I applaud), you disregard the explicit prioritization of Avatar and Demoralizing Shout that are at the center of my complaint here. 

Either Avatar and Demoralizing shout are legitimately higher priority than 1, 2, 3, and 4 in that list or they're not.

If they are, your explanation is assigning them to the wrong places in the priority list.

If they are not, the original article is wrong.

I can't see any other alternatives here, although I'll freely admit that there might be something I'm missing.

Again, I'm not evaluating the accuracy of the information presented.

I'm only evaluating how it is presented.

That there has been this much discussion on what amounts to a six item priority list by people who obviously do not have reading comprehension problems tells me immediately that as technical writing, this article fails to do what it's supposed to do - to explain in simple terms the prioirty list for a Prot Warrior's abilities (or for this subset, his rage-producing abilities). 

Yeah, i think you are missing (and messing) just something.

  • Why are you so keen on a six item priority list if there are more than 6 skills? You want to read up a priority for rage-generation - ok, then i'm with you and you're list absolutely fits. Marok already wrote that in his guide, just not mentioning Avatar and Demoshout - because this could misslead people to a bad performance (i'm not going into details right here). So i don't see any big difference between your presentation an how is done by Marok.
  • If you think the guide is to complex, have a look at the "easy-mode"-section. You can find basics there and probably there should avatar and demoshout find its place too (your priority list would fit in there perfectly).
  • My rotation is stated as a defensive playstile (its even written in bold...). In a defensive playstile, mitigation stays on top off everyting. Either the article or my priority-list is wrong. It simply adresses different playstiles.

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Hoping to just clarify things a bit. This is what a full rotation for Prot Warrior would look like. Keep in mind that some things might be out of priority as I am paraphrasing Marok's work here, but you'll see how complicated things can become.

  1. Cast Avatar on CD, if:
    1. You are within range of the boss.
    2. You have Demo Shout ready to be used, or it will come off cooldown within the next 12 seconds. This only applies when using Booming Voice.
    3. You will not require Avatar to cleanse/cheese a mechanic that has rooted you.
    4. You are able to hit the boss for 20 seconds after using it.
      1. If this is not possible, assess the wasted cooldown.
      2. If the statement on point 4 is true, then use Avatar anyway:
        1. The amount of time I can hit the boss for = X
        2. The amount of time I will not be able to hit the boss for = Y
        3. Your normal Avatar cooldown based on Anger Management procs = Z
        4. X/20 > Y/Z
  2. Cast Demo Shout, if:
    1. Avatar has more than 40 seconds left on the cooldown, unless you are using Anger Management.
      1. When using Anger Management, the cooldown varies on DS due to Rage spending.
      2. Depending on the fight, whether you are tanking and how much Rage you have pooled, you will have to adjust your DS usage based on the Avatar CD.
      3. Anger Management will also affect Avatar cooldown, so ensure you keep an eye on the cooldown of Avatar with your average rage reduction before using DS.
    2. Avatar is currently active and has more than 12 seconds left on its duration.
    3. You are within range of the boss.
    4. You are using the Booming Voice talent.
      1. If you are not using Booming Voice, you should use this ability as a normal cooldown for damage reduction.
    5. You have other defensive cooldowns ready in case of heavy damage, or are not expecting a mechanic requiring you to swap and tank.
  3. Cast Shield Slam without proc or to spend Devastate procs.
  4. Cast Thunder Clap on CD.
  5. Use Revenge when it is free.
  6. Cast Intercept, if:
    1. You need Rage.
    2. The off-tank needs help surviving.
    3. You will not turn/move the boss if you are currently tanking.
    4. You will not need Intercept to get back to the boss after a mechanic before it is off cooldown again.
  7. Use Devastate.

As you have said above, this seems easier to follow from a technical perspective. It's as easy as Avatar at 1, Demo at 2, etc.

Except, how do you use technical writing to include delaying abilities into a priority? If the abilities move out of sync, where do I include a delayed Demo Shout or Avatar into that priority? Also, DPS characters very rarely have the concept of "do not cast", whereas tanks do. Demoralizing Shout is not primarily a Rage generation tool. It is technically a defensive cooldown, meaning that we need to include a note in there for people that are main-tanking a fight.

The rotation setup that you proposed completely removes any vital information about these abilities. If we were to use the one you propose:

Quote
  1. Cast Avatar on cooldown.
  2. Cast Demoralizing Shout on cooldown if talented with Booming Voice.
  3. Cast Shield Slam on cooldown or reset.
  4. Cast Thunder Clap on cooldown.
  5. Cast Revenge on proc only.
  6. Cast Devastate on cooldown.

Let's use this as a player that is learning Prot Warrior in a normal fight:

I am a Prot Warrior tanking the first boss of BoD, Champion. My rotation says to pop Avatar on CD, I do so, the boss immediately goes into the add phase, but I used Avatar. I have now wasted my Avatar cooldown, as it is a damage buff on a phase I cannot aim for maximum damage.

That's unfortunate, but next time I am tanking the adds. My Demo Shout is coming off cooldown shortly, so I pop it. The adds are about to die, so the use is wasted. I could have saved it for the next wave or used it on the boss to help my off-tank. Also, my Avatar is off-cooldown in 10 seconds. I could have waited to use it, but the priority says nothing about comboing them.

I'm not seeing Intercept in your rotation (not sure why), but it's a Rage generating ability, so let's add it. In the same way you did, it would simply say "Cast Inercept on cooldown.", I assume. A newer tank could turn the boss, killing their raid, could waste it rather than saving their off-tank or a healer targeted by adds, could get thrown off a platform or completely reposition the raid due to not having it to close the gap at the boss.

Keep in mind that my rotation example only includes rage generation. I think you are hugely oversimplifying the caveats and playstyle of a Prot Warrior and, if we were to list it fully as such a rotation, it would just be completely pointless for players trying to learn (which I imagine the large majority of our users are). The rotation Marok has listed is written as such because you only have to use Avatar approximately once per minute, with DS being used once every 20-30 seconds (assuming use of Anger Management). Instead, players will be using Shield Slam/Thunder Clap/Devastate multiple times within that window. It just brings huge amounts of clutter for things that only matter a few times per fight. This way, if players want to read more, they can, if not, they have their rotation there that functions perfectly well as a baseline for most fights.

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Well Blainie, you now explained the details i didnt want to mention because is so horrible to read 😄, but I completely agree what you wrote.

Even though I do completely agree, in easy-mode it is not wrong to add avatar and demo-shout on prio 1 and 2. It's an easy-mode - it's not meant to perform in the best way. It's meant to give a very simply starting-point, isn't it?

Concerning intercept, i do understand why he hasn't considered it.  I personally use it often as movement-skill, sometimes to prevent some dmg from a mate...but i never use it as rage-generator. And i think it should really never be used in this way. It's how you said - espacially mispositioning encounter is rather dangerous. Or you get a debuff when you shouldn't get one. Or you need a charge to get back to boss after charging a mate. And and and ... there is a very very narrow spot to use it actively as rage-generator. - But well, thats another topic 🙂

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10 hours ago, Blainie said:

My rotation says to pop Avatar on CD, I do so, the boss immediately goes into the add phase, but I used Avatar. I have now wasted my Avatar cooldown, as it is a damage buff on a phase I cannot aim for maximum damage.

To be fair, some of the DPS class guides list their big 2- or 3-min CDs in their priorities, which frankly they shouldn't either.

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Just to be clear. I'm not suggesting that I have a better rotation at all.

I'm saying that even in it's abstracted form, the existing opening paragraphs there are self contradictory.

  • Cast 1
  • Cast 2
  • Cast 3
  • Cast 4
  • A comes first
  • B comes before A

That's what it says now.

I don't care what 1, 2, 3, 4, A, or B are. That's just wrong. It's self-contradictory.

That's ALL I'm saying.

The level of detail is fine for those six, although if you're going to include Demoralizing Shout based on selection of a particular talent, you should include any others that might have been omitted because you don't want to add conditions to this and if you're going to comment on inserting things in the rotation based on whether or not they proc, that also should be done consistently.

This is not bad information. It's just badly written.

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I'm not going to attempt to do all of this tonight, but I can answer one question:

Quote

how do you use technical writing to include delaying abilities into a priority

If you can say this:

Cast X (only if free)

Then you can say this:

Cast X (only if Y is within 15 seconds of coming off cooldown)

That's an abstraction, obviously, but you asked "how" and that's how.

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I've got some tables I wrote for my hunter. I know that class a lot better. I'll see if I can't get them cleaned up and make them available here as an example of how you'd do this at a detailed level.

That might be better in private message to a moderator and then let him or her post what he wants. I'm not trying to be contentions here (as odd as that might sound).

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On 3/2/2019 at 1:16 AM, Ehiztari said:

Just to be clear. I'm not suggesting that I have a better rotation at all.

I'm saying that even in it's abstracted form, the existing opening paragraphs there are self contradictory.

  • Cast 1
  • Cast 2
  • Cast 3
  • Cast 4
  • A comes first
  • B comes before A

That's what it says now.

I don't care what 1, 2, 3, 4, A, or B are. That's just wrong. It's self-contradictory.

That's ALL I'm saying.

The level of detail is fine for those six, although if you're going to include Demoralizing Shout based on selection of a particular talent, you should include any others that might have been omitted because you don't want to add conditions to this and if you're going to comment on inserting things in the rotation based on whether or not they proc, that also should be done consistently.

This is not bad information. It's just badly written.

I agree in the case that you are presenting it, but you are including A and B in your priority here as additional bullet points, not as paragraphs elsewhere. The issue is, it is wrong to simply put them in the priority without the additional information, because there are numerous issues with placing them as priority 1 and 2 without their numerous caveats.

I am not disputing that it is unfortunate to have it displayed like this, but the alternative (without flooding the priority with countless points of extra information) is to write:

  1. Cast A (see below).
  2. Cast B (see below).
  3. Cast 1.

This means that people have to read below anyway and the actual adding of these in the priority brings no benefit. It is just 2 additional points in the priority that, in reality, are just clutter, because they may or may not be wrong, depending on the situation.

I did not write the full priority to try and display a better rotation, I did it to show the true extent of trying to itemise the conditions of casting these abilities. In the Easy Mode section, I would agree, Marok could add Cast A and Cast B to the top, simply because it does not matter for that section. The purpose is to make things as easy as possible there.

For the full rotation page, I think it is more misleading to put these spells in the rotation simply because their placement is entirely dependent on what is currently happening in the fight, and to put all the conditions in the rotation is far more damaging than beneficial.

On 3/2/2019 at 1:20 AM, Ehiztari said:

If you can say this:

Cast X (only if free)

Then you can say this:

Cast X (only if Y is within 15 seconds of coming off cooldown)

That's an abstraction, obviously, but you asked "how" and that's how.

And for Demo/Avatar, my initial post is what it looks like. You have to account for varying cooldown times, being unable to say simply "within x seconds" because that varies based on the player. Are you dumping rage? That means more CDR, meaning lower cooldown times. If you're currently pooling/DPSing/tanking, they all have different cooldown rates. Just putting this into a single bullet point in a rotation is fairly tough to do, especially since both abilities are affected by it. So it's not just putting it for Avatar, but for Demo too, since both might need to be delayed.

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On 3/1/2019 at 3:49 PM, Allseye said:

Even though I do completely agree, in easy-mode it is not wrong to add avatar and demo-shout on prio 1 and 2. It's an easy-mode - it's not meant to perform in the best way. It's meant to give a very simply starting-point, isn't it?

I agree on this, yeah, for Easy Mode it works.

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