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Starym

Hit Values vs. Raid Bosses in Classic Clarified

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It seems the last "not a bug" thread posted on the Classic forums has been quite active and even though most of the original claims/questions posted there have been debunked, it seems more and more keep arising. The most recent argument arose over hit values and whether the 8% miss chance raid bosses (or any creature 3 levels above the player) was actually correct, as there's been evidence that 8% wasn't enough to get hit capped.

Today Blizzard responded and it seems the 8% number shared by devs was, in fact wrong. Well, mostly. Apparently there's some weird code that's ignoring the first 1% of + hit for most players, unless the players have +5 weapon skill from whatever source.Check out the more detailed explanation below:

Blizzard LogoHit Values (source)

There are a lot of questions seeking additional clarification in this thread, and while we’re not going to dig too deep into everything asked here, we did want to take a quick moment to highlight this comment and our findings around it in particular. In the days following our original post, we did an even deeper deep dive into combat, focusing on max level characters with various races, classes, talents and gear added to the equation. In doing so we discovered something very interesting:

There is some code in 1.12 that explicitly adds a modifier that causes the first 1% of +hit gained from talents or gear to be ignored against monsters with more than 10 Defense Skill above the attacking player’s Weapon Skill.

This means that the so-called “hit cap” is in effect 9% rather than 8% for a player with 300 Weapon Skill fighting a level 63 monster with a Defense Skill of 315. With a Weapon Skill of 305, such as from Sword Specialization (Humans) or Axe Specialization (Orcs), this hit modifier is no longer in place against +3 level monsters, provided that you are using the appropriate weapon type to gain the passive bonus. Needless to say, this makes +Weapon Skill very good against raid-level monsters.

This code is already fully present in the WoW Classic client, and this will continue to function exactly as it did in the original game.

Thanks everyone in this thread for their interest in this topic. It’s this kind of discussion and attention to detail that makes this project so incredibly fun to be a part of  ?

So, while this observation from the community was in fact correct, and Blizzard (ironically) missed it, it's still technically not a bug, since it was present in Vanilla. It's definitely a weird one, even for Vanilla standards though, and it's a great catch from Mirayne over on the official forums. Now I better understand why my Obsidian Edged Blade was so awesome back then.

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I feel like there's a quickly developing fine line where we're not going to enjoy Classic because it's being turned back into BfA by beating it into submission. I'm not sure how to feel about it. I also feel like the beta is taking too long because they're dragging it out to ensure it gets released after 8.2.

Let me just stamp my feet and wave my hands like a petulant child while I complain. OK, taking my ball and going home.

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1 hour ago, OldManKrypton said:

I feel like there's a quickly developing fine line where we're not going to enjoy Classic because it's being turned back into BfA by beating it into submission. I'm not sure how to feel about it. I also feel like the beta is taking too long because they're dragging it out to ensure it gets released after 8.2.

Let me just stamp my feet and wave my hands like a petulant child while I complain. OK, taking my ball and going home.

How the hell are they turning it into BFA? People are getting exactly what they demanded and whined for for years and years. Classic is going to be exactly that, classic, warts and all.

Seriously I don't get the complaining, you're getting what you wanted! The classic 'community' spammed every dev livestream with "classic when" and sent death to streamers and content creators who didn't agree with them, spammed the forums, and generally acted like entitled children, and they got what they wanted, and now that they have it, it's not good enough!

I think that's the main problem with classic, it's not the game, it's the people.

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13 minutes ago, OldManKrypton said:

Wow, you need to take a break from the internet. Or direct your anger somewhere else.

Because I don't approve of the selfish entitled, and frankly disgusting, behaviour of the classic community? Like I said before, you guys are getting exactly what you demanded, and now that you are you're not happy, but complaining more and saying it's turning into BFA?

Seriously I don't understand you lot.

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Why are you even here or reading it then? Avoid the outrage, guy. Also, nobody needs your approval for anything.

Edited by OldManKrypton
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Maybe an outburst of discontent for the described people but i have to agree to some degree. That being said, where does this post say anything about changes that make the game like BfA.  You are just stoking the flame and posting something that has nothing to do with the thread.

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1 hour ago, OldManKrypton said:

Why are you even here or reading it then? Avoid the outrage, guy. Also, nobody needs your approval for anything.

Maybe not, but that wont stop me calling the selfish entitled behaviour of the classic community, the most toxic group of people this side of LoL.

I mean seriously you claim that they are 'turning classic into BFA' because what? They tuned the hit value to what it actually was?

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I think it was really poor wording I'm that response. It almost sounds like the blue is uninformed about how hit and hit cap works.  Saying that their is some code that causes the first hit % to be ignored makes it sound like that one hit isn't important. What I believe he meant to really say is that the formula to calculate your chance to miss CHANGES from 304 to 305 weapon skill. Here is what has always been known to be the formula for weapon skill and hit rating:

skilldiff = (Attacker Weapon Skill) - (Target Defense Skill)

if (skillDiff < -10)
missChance -= (skillDiff + 10) * 0.4 - 1.0
else
missChance -= skillDiff * 0.1

*credit to omakaroni

Edited by seeth07
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I fail to see how the game is going to end up like BfA while they're keeping everything authentic exactly the way it was in Vanilla, and checking every report if it's in line with their reference client. Keep the discussions civil folks and refrain from trolling, or we'll be forced to swing the hammer.

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7 hours ago, OldManKrypton said:

I feel like there's a quickly developing fine line where we're not going to enjoy Classic because it's being turned back into BfA by beating it into submission. I'm not sure how to feel about it. I also feel like the beta is taking too long because they're dragging it out to ensure it gets released after 8.2.

Let me just stamp my feet and wave my hands like a petulant child while I complain. OK, taking my ball and going home.

I really don't see the correlation how Classic will turn into BFA.  Classic is and is going to be just Classic...unaltered, untouched, unmodified.  Classic will not have any of QoL systems be put in place if that is what you are worried about.  And believe scheduled release date for Classic is possibly August/September of this year.  However you can take this with a grain of salt....  With today's available excess of information compared to the days of old Vanilla, when WoW was first launched, Classic in itself will be 'easier' to a majority of the playerbase that has already endured this original form of content.  And players will have easy access to information on how to build their characters, what to gear, and how to quest and where to go in the world of Azeroth.  Such information was not around on the internet at the time and if so there was only small smidgets of it here or there back then.

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2 hours ago, Stan said:

I fail to see how the game is going to end up like BfA while they're keeping everything authentic exactly the way it was in Vanilla, and verifying every report with their reference client

ITS LIKE SOME PEOPLE BLOW THINGS WAY OUT OF PROPORTION.

Caps for emPHASis.

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4 hours ago, seeth07 said:

I think it was really poor wording I'm that response. It almost sounds like the blue is uninformed about how hit and hit cap works.  Saying that their is some code that causes the first hit % to be ignored makes it sound like that one hit isn't important. What I believe he meant to really say is that the formula to calculate your chance to miss CHANGES from 304 to 305 weapon skill. Here is what has always been known to be the formula for weapon skill and hit rating:

skilldiff = (Attacker Weapon Skill) - (Target Defense Skill)

if (skillDiff < -10)
missChance -= (skillDiff + 10) * 0.4 - 1.0
else
missChance -= skillDiff * 0.1

*credit to omakaroni

If this is true, blizzards post would absolutely misslead. This formula basically says we have a "penalty" if targets defensivskill is 10 or more points higher than a my attackskill. This means the needed additional hitrating for hitcap depends on my attackrating. The first additional 1%  would not be useless, this would be a complete wrong statement. We just need proportionally more hitrating if we have less than 10 difference. 

So i think there is another code and not that formula which makes a difference?

Edited by Allseye

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OK, clearly I hit a nerve. Two things. One, I can be wrong and admit it, certainly. Two, apparently civility and respect have long since been forgotten here and it's OK to attack people relentlessly. It'll be noted in future subs.

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11 hours ago, OldManKrypton said:

I feel like there's a quickly developing fine line where we're not going to enjoy Classic because it's being turned back into BfA by beating it into submission. I'm not sure how to feel about it. I also feel like the beta is taking too long because they're dragging it out to ensure it gets released after 8.2.

Let me just stamp my feet and wave my hands like a petulant child while I complain. OK, taking my ball and going home.

Just because players know mostly everything about classic doesn’t mean it will go the same way as BFA. BFA is beat into submission by winey entitled casual gamers that have conned the dev teams into adding features that quite literally submit the game. dungeon/raid finder, flying mounts, world quests for easy loot, dailies, sharding, cross realm grouping. The Classic community will thrive because these things absent.

private server players have already analyzed the game nearly to its limit. It’s been proven that the sense of community and social structure is why people always come back. They already know it’s a relatively simple game with simple mechanics. 

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1 hour ago, OldManKrypton said:

OK, clearly I hit a nerve. Two things. One, I can be wrong and admit it, certainly. Two, apparently civility and respect have long since been forgotten here and it's OK to attack people relentlessly. It'll be noted in future subs.

See here's the thing. The response you're getting to your (honestly not that bad - incorrect, but not bad) post has nothing to do with you or your post. The instant anyone pro-Classic says anything even remotely negative concerning BfA the BfAers get butthurt. The exact same thing happens when BfAers say bad things about Classic. And around and around it goes and then after reading 349438234 posts trashing BfA/Classic (select whichever one you're sworn to protect for some bizzare reason) people have outbursts towards the next negative post they read.

Now for my money, your post wasn't bad at all, it was just incorrect and not really related to the news at all - in fact the news is about Blizzard keeping things exactly as they were in patch 1.12 - and then others reacted badly not because you're incorrect or were particularly nasty, they just saw "BfA bad, Classic good, Blizzard ruin Classic", which isn't really at all what you said. Hell, you even finished off your post by acknowledging that you were basically throwing a bit of a tantrum (which I found funny and totally disarmed any negativity of your post), so really, the reaction has nothing to do with you.

As for the civility thing I can assure you this particular site is remarkably civil compared to... well most other places when it comes to WoW (just try to dare read our facebook comments..jeez).

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11 minutes ago, Starym said:

See here's the thing. The response you're getting to your (honestly not that bad - incorrect, but not bad) post has nothing to do with you or your post. The instant anyone pro-Classic says anything even remotely negative concerning BfA the BfAers get butthurt. The exact same thing happens when BfAers say bad things about Classic. And around and around it goes and then after reading 349438234 posts trashing BfA/Classic (select whichever one you're sworn to protect for some bizzare reason) people have outbursts towards the next negative post they read.

Now for my money, your post wasn't bad at all, it was just incorrect and not really related to the news at all - in fact the news is about Blizzard keeping things exactly as they were in patch 1.12 - and then others reacted badly not because you're incorrect or were particularly nasty, they just saw "BfA bad, Classic good, Blizzard ruin Classic", which isn't really at all what you said. Hell, you even finished off your post by acknowledging that you were basically throwing a bit of a tantrum (which I found funny and totally disarmed any negativity of your post), so really, the reaction has nothing to do with you.

As for the civility thing I can assure you this particular site is remarkably civil compared to... well most other places when it comes to WoW (just try to dare read our facebook comments..jeez).

Right, the "tantrum" acknowledgment at the end was supposed to be the diffuser of such an inane comment. I was making it known I was my own antagonist and for no reason. Instead, outrage. I just don't care for all the personal/party attacks that are just relentless. We live in a society where it's OK to just bash and bash and bash and the only way to have any control is by canceling my sub and just not participating. I do appreciate the site though and the stories and wish you all the very best.

Edited by OldManKrypton

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6 hours ago, OldManKrypton said:

OK, clearly I hit a nerve. Two things. One, I can be wrong and admit it, certainly. Two, apparently civility and respect have long since been forgotten here and it's OK to attack people relentlessly. It'll be noted in future subs.

Also you: "Let me just stamp my feet and wave my hands like a petulant child while I complain"

Maybe don't pretend you're being a petulant child in your OP, and people won't treat you like a petulant child in their responses.

Not to mention that you didn't even explain your initial position on WHY Classic was going to be BfA 2.0, which just added to the "petulant child" part.

It's fine to have an opinion, but dear god man, back it up with SOMETHING, ANYTHING.  Otherwise, don't be surprised when you get called out for being flat wrong and contributing to a larger problem. 

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      Certain weapons from Ny'alotha also have Benthic-like effects and a flat +25 Corruption Stat Increase which isn't currently reflected on the tooltip.
      Weapon Effect Description An'zig Vra Devour Vitality Your autoattacks bite into the target's soul, dealing 2% of your health in damage and healing you for that amount. Devastation's Hour Twilight Devastation Your attacks have a chance to trigger a beam of Twilight Devastation, dealing damage equal to 5% of your health to all enemies in front of you.
      Eyestalk of Il'gynoth Ineffable Truth Your Spells and Abilities have a chance to show you the Ineffable Truth, increasing the rate your cooldowns recover by 20% for 12 sec. Faralos, Empire's Dream Searing Flames Your damaging abilities build stacks of Searing Flames. When you reach 30 stacks, exhale a Searing Breath, dealing damage equal to 5% of your health to all targets in front of you. Mar'kowa, the Mindpiercer Flash of Insight Your mind's true potential is unlocked, causing your spells to grant you flashes of insight. Gain between 1% and 8% Intellect at all times. Qwor N'lyeth Echoing Void Your damaging abilities build the Echoing Void. Each time it builds, Echoing Void has a chance to collapse, dealing 1% of your Health as Shadow damage to all nearby enemies every 1 sec until no stacks remain. Shard of the Black Empire Twisted Appendage Your attacks have a chance to spawn a tentacle which Mind Flays your target for [ 3,110 + 25% of Spell Power ] Shadow damage every second for 10 sec. Shgla'yos, Astral Malignity Infinite Stars Your spells and abilities have a chance to strike a nearby enemy with an Infinite Star, dealing [ 60% of Spell Power ] Arcane damage and increasing their damage taken from your Infinite Stars by 25%, stacking up to 10 times. Sk'shuul Vaz Obsidian Skin Gain Obsidian Skin, increasing your Armor by 5%. Every 100% of your Max Health lost, explode with Obsidian Destruction, dealing Shadow damage equal to 1,000% of your Armor to all enemies within 20 yds. Unguent Caress Lash of the Void Your attacks have a chance to lash your target with a living tentacle, dealing [ 30% of Attack Power ] Shadow damage and snaring them by 30% for 6 sec. Vorzz Yoq'al Void Ritual Gain Void Ritual, giving your spells and abilities a chance to increase all secondary stats by 10 every sec for 20 sec. This chance is increased if at least 2 nearby allies also have Void Ritual. Whispering Eldritch Bow Whispered Truths Your auto-shots reduce the remaining cooldown of a random Hunter ability by 1.0 sec. Corruption Resistance
      There are various ways to decrease your Corruption Level in Patch 8.3:
      New 8.3 Essences will reduce your Corruption by 10. You can talk to MOTHER and cleanse an item off Corruption, but that will also remove its beneficial effect. Ashjra'kamas, Shroud of Resolve (Wrathion's Legendary Cloak) comes with +5 Corruption Resistance at Rank 1. The Heart of Azeroth will have an infinite trait to aid you against N’Zoth’s Corruption at max level (Purity of the Worldsoul). The trait's available at HoA Level 85 and more details can be found here. Blizzard's Goals with Corrupted Items
      Finally, Blizzard shared their thoughts on the new Corrupted Items system in a blue post on October 24.
      Blizzard (Source)
      The most recent PTR build introduced an early version of our Corrupted Items system, and we’d like to highlight a few aspects of how the Corruption system works, and our goals as we iterate on it.
      How Corruption Works
      Items from Ny’alotha, Mythic Keystone dungeons in Season 4, BfA PvP Season 4, the Heroic Darkshore Warfront, and other new sources of loot that are updated with Season 4 will not be able to Warforge or Titanforge. Items from older content will retain an effective “ceiling” of item level 455, as they do today.
      There will be a chance for these new items to be Corrupted by N’Zoth. A Corrupted item has a powerful beneficial property, similar to many of the Benthic effects seen in Nazjatar, but has a new detrimental stat: Corruption. Items can have varying levels of Corruption, with the amount of Corruption present correlating directly with the power of the beneficial upside (for example: an item might give 4% Critical Strike damage and 10 Corruption, or 6% Critical Strike damage and 15 Corruption).
      Corruption represents the influence of N’Zoth, which will have negative effects on the wearer. As Corruption increases, a series of drawbacks are activated. You might remember how Corruption worked on the Cho’gall encounter back in Bastion of Twilight – that was a source of inspiration here. The drawbacks currently on the PTR are works-in-progress and not-yet-tuned, and we have changes already implemented in the next PTR build. Our general intent is for low Corruption to activate a minor effect that most people can play around without too much difficulty, medium levels of Corruption to activate a couple more effects that have a higher skill cap (nd may be more situational in where and when someone can handle having them active), and high levels of Corruption to be prohibitive, and virtually never worth it.
      Gear that makes your character worse when you equip it doesn’t sound terribly appealing, but fortunately there will be a few ways of dealing with Corruption. The legendary cloak that players will earn from Wrathion early on in Visions of N’Zoth will negate some Corruption, and can be upgraded through entering and completing Horrific Visions to provide even more of a bulwark against Corruption.
      Early on, we expect that players might wear one or maybe two pieces of Corrupted gear at a time. Later on, three or four pieces might be manageable. The vast majority of the gear players wear, even later on, will not be Corrupted. And these perks aren’t planned to be slot-restricted, so if there’s a specific power you want, there should never be a concern that your item needs to roll with that affix to be useful.
      We also never want an item that would otherwise be an upgrade to feel unusable as a result of being Corrupted, so any Corrupted items can be taken to the Heart Forge and purified without restriction . If you get that trinket you’ve been hoping for, but it’s Corrupted with a beneficial effect you don’t like, or wearing it would push you above a Corruption threshold you’re comfortable with, just purify the item and carry on.
      Itemization Philosophy
      With itemization, we’re always looking for opportunities to create moments of excitement and choices and options to customize your gameplay to suit your playstyle and the content you choose to play. Warforging created some of this by allowing useful rewards to come from a wide range of content, and ensuring that there was almost always at least the chance of an upgrade from any repeat boss kill or other source of loot. However, as we’ve seen and heard clearly in feedback over the past years, it has also brought significant downsides: Progression feels less rewarding, as players killing a raid boss on a new difficulty for the first time often disenchant much of the loot because they have equal or better Warforged items from lower difficulties or other sources. In addition, the feeling that a given item could have Warforged more and been even better can leave a sense of disappointment at what should have been a clear reward moment. And the sense that these systems are out of players’ direct control makes it harder to work towards a clear goal or state of completion.
      The Corruption system isn’t a permanent addition to World of Warcraft, but it is an extension of the theme of N’Zoth’s pervasive and growing influence over Azeroth. As we explore this over the course of the PTR, we’d love to hear feedback about the initial round of powers showing up on items, Corruption drawbacks that may be excessively punitive, and the system as a whole.
      Please feel free to reply with your feedback here in this thread. Thank you very much!
      Check out our Patch 8.3 Hub for more information about Visions of N'Zoth.
      Here's everything we know so far about the Corrupted items system coming in Visions of N'Zoth.
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