Krushinator

PvE Subtlety : What's new?

6 posts in this topic

Hello roguely buddies, I've got some information I want to confirm about raiding Subtlety. I've been pulled out of raiding retirement by Akraen, and my knowledge of Subtlety mechanics dates back to Dragon Soul. From what I can tell not a lot has changed, however I just want to make sure.

If any of the following facts are wrong or there are facts missing, please point them out:

SnD: 100% uptime

Rupture: 100% uptime

Recuperate: No longer necessary for Energetic Recovery (that makes things easier)

Find Weakness: Maximum uptime possible, can't avoid clipping during shadow dance, but avoid clipping with extra cooldowns like vanish and prep-vanish.

Shadowstep: No longer ups Ambush damage, not a damage cooldown (that makes things easier)

These are things I'm less sure about:

Cooldown overlapping: Shadow Blades overlapping with Find Weakness seems like a waste to me. However, if I'm playing properly, Find Weakness should be up a lot of the time. Does that make it not matter when I hit Shadow Blades? Should I pair it with Shadow Dance or offset them?

Hemo Bleed: Is this something we still have to keep up 100% of the time? 

Stealth opener vs. vanish opener: My thinking is that the very beginning of the fight would start with a Garrote to get the bleed ticking right away, and vanish openers would use Ambush instead. Is this correct, or is it better to open the fight with Ambush?

Combo point ruptures: Is it more important to roll 5 point ruptures or to have 100% rupture uptime?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

got it for the most part. shadow blades use during find weakness increased shadow damage, just remember only works out of auto attack damage so dont use it during Shadow dance no point since your spamming Ambush. 100% uptime on rupture for energy regen, and 100% uptime on SND for faster hiting. Hemo bleed is easy to keep up. increases rupture dmg by 50% and the damage you deal to targets effected by rupture so yes 100% uptime is good. try and always 5 point ruptures. but if it is about to fall off, use whatever you have to keep it up. use weakauras to keep track of how long until it falls and prepare for the next one. pretty much is a simple rotation as long as you can keep almost 95% uptime behind the boss. also never open with garrote ambush only because rupture gives energy back and having both up does not do anything special, also starting with ambush gives the debuff along with more CP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hemo:

 

"It is a small DPS increase to keep the wow_icon_spell_shadow_lifedrain.jpg Hemorrhage bleed on your target, but you should wait until it has dropped from the target before refreshing it. It should also be noted that this bleed highly relies on the initial damage of Hemorrhage, so it may be better to delay it for a few seconds if you are about to gain wow_icon_ability_rogue_findweakness.jpg Find Weakness or another damage increase. For similar reasons, you can also refresh wow_icon_spell_shadow_lifedrain.jpg Hemorrhage early if you benefit from a large increase in your damage done."

 

Rupture:

 

wow_icon_ability_rogue_sanguinaryvein.jp Sanguinary Vein is a passive ability that increases the damage of your wow_icon_ability_rogue_rupture.jpg Ruptureability by 50% and that causes you to deal 35% increased damage to enemies afflicted bywow_icon_ability_rogue_rupture.jpg Rupturewow_icon_ability_rogue_garrote.jpg Garrote, or wow_icon_inv_knife_1h_cataclysm_c_05.jpg Crimson Tempest (your AoE Finishing Move).

The most obvious implication of having this passive ability is that wow_icon_ability_rogue_rupture.jpg Rupture should always be on the target, so that you always deal 20% increased damage. If wow_icon_ability_rogue_garrote.jpg Garrote or wow_icon_inv_knife_1h_cataclysm_c_05.jpg Crimson Tempest are already on the target, then you do not need to apply wow_icon_ability_rogue_rupture.jpg Rupture.

Another, less obvious implication is that you can use wow_icon_ability_rogue_garrote.jpg Garrote for breaking out of Stealth at the pull. This will instantly grant you a 18-second duration on wow_icon_ability_rogue_sanguinaryvein.jp Sanguinary Vein (and during this time, you do not need to apply or refresh wow_icon_ability_rogue_rupture.jpg Rupture).

 

Note the line "Rupture should always be on the target". I guess 100% uptime is more important than 5 CP. Obviously 5 CP will mean you have to refresh it less often, but if you only have 3 CP and it's about to drop, refresh it.

 

And the last paragraph about opening with garrote.

 

Find Weakness + Shadow Blades:

 

As a general rule, avoid using wow_icon_inv_knife_1h_grimbatolraid_d_03 Shadow Blades when wow_icon_ability_rogue_findweakness.jpg Find Weakness is up. The reason for that is that part of wow_icon_inv_knife_1h_grimbatolraid_d_03 Shadow Blades will be wasted, as your auto-attacks bypass 100% of your enemy's armor during wow_icon_ability_rogue_findweakness.jpg Find Weakness (so them dealing pure Shadow damage would not be an improvement). As a result, you want to avoid casting Shadow Blades and wow_icon_ability_rogue_shadowdance.jpg Shadow Dance at the same time.

An exception to this rule is when casting Shadow Blades during Find Weakness would enable you cast Shadow Blades more times during the encounter.

 

Openers:

 

  1. Cast wow_icon_ability_rogue_garrote.jpg Garrote.
  2. Cast wow_icon_ability_rogue_ambush.jpg Ambush as many times as possible (usually twice).
    • It should be possible thanks to Energetic Recovery and wow_icon_rogue_subterfuge.jpg Subterfuge.
    • Extra Combo Points will be stored, thanks to wow_icon_ability_rogue_slaughterfromthes Anticipation.
  3. Continue with your normal rotation...

 

 

This is after pre-pot and Tricks.

 

I highly recommend reading the guide on this site. It seems to answer all of your questions, and maybe more

http://www.icy-veins.com/subtlety-rogue-wow-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities#sec-5

 

I haven't played sub in a while, but I found the assassination and combat guides to be excellent. 

 

+1 for WeakAuras, too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have inclined to try sub for a while but tbh many posts here and IV guide put me off as it feels too much work. Perhaps because i'm not familiar with it..

 

I'm mostly gemming for agi+haste for my gear (combat) - is this also viable for sub ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a quick experiment I loaded my character into ShC, set up a combat spec with my current gear, gemmed for haste, and auto-reforged. I have a slow main hand and fast dagger in the off-hand.

 

Switching to sub:

 

Using the same gems, reforges, and switching the weapons over: I'll call it 100 %, because the actual number I get isn't that important.

 

Asking ShC to auto-reforge actually doesn't change anything for me. My stat weightings for each spec are as follows

 

Combat

Haste 1.548
Mastery 1.331
Crit 1.290
 
Sub
Haste 1.627
Crit 1.561
Mastery 1.468

 

Mastery and crit are pretty close for both, but ShC doesn't touch anything when I change to sub.

 

Optimizing gems: changes them from agi+haste for red and pure haste for yellow, to pure agi and agi+haste. For a grand total of 100.7 %

 

Reforging with the new gems: ShC says to do nothing again.

 

You might like to try with your own combat gear, but if I were to play combat and wanted to switch to sub, I wouldn't bother changing gems for a 0.7 % difference.

 

Conversely, using the subtlety gems and switching to combat...

 

Base rating = 100 %

Switching to combat gems = 100.5 %

 

It seems that it would be better for me to use sub gems and suffer a smaller loss in combat, but I would be surprised if either difference was noticeable during actual gameplay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey thank you !

I will give it a go , perhaps not on our progress night but may be at LFR or Flex raid.

 

I have been playing combat for ages - as such i can play it with closed eyes and do still good dps (but would stand on fire ;P)

and we have good aoe dps in our team (spriest, warlock, ele shaman etc) so it would be beneficial to the raid overall given that i 'd play it to the full potential

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Shylana
      Short Intro/Raiding Goals:
      <Amelioration> is a group of 16 friends, that transfered mostly from Ravencrest to Kazzak to form a new guild. We are trying to get a new raid going within the next 2 weeks so we can get back to 10/11 Mythic and Argus Progress.
      On our first raid day on Kazzak yesterday (21st February 2018)
      We were able to clear up to 7/11 with the new guild.
      We are searching primarily for Ranged DPS to complete our Roster.
      All exceptional applications will be considered no mater the state of recruitment!
      Socials/Friends are allways welcome - we do a lot of M+ in the guild and other activities.
      We are searching for equaly dedicated people that want to bring their A-Game
      You should be able to play two specs or bring another character if needed.
      We play by the rule : Bring the Character - not the Player
      - Be mature
      - Be able to use comms (we use Discord)
      - Be prepared for the raids (consumables/enchanted gear/etc)
      - Be reliable (try to attend as much as possible/RL goes first tho)
      What do we give you?
      - A strong management: 3 Officers / 3 Advicers - these also form the Raidcouncil
      - Quick progressin in Antorus and BFA - Our goal is to lead the group to Top 250
      - A reward based Loot System. Play well, contribute to the tactics, be dynamic with your spc and abilities and other things => More Loot will be given to you
      - Stuff outside of raids -> M+, PVP, social stuff, having a fun chat in Discord
      For further information feel free to contact one of the following officers:
      Yero#2138
      Dykona#2182
      Freeway#2530
    • By Casdon
      [US] Stormreaver — Skunkworks
      Tuesdays & Thursdays: 7:00 P.M. to 11:00 P.M. (pst) || 9-1 (cst) || 10-2 (est)
       
      Progression
      8/11M Antorus
      9/9M ToS
      10/10M Nighthold
      3/3M Trial of Valor
      7/7M Emerald Nightmare
       
      Website
      skunkworksguild.com
       
      About Us
      Skunkworks is a guild for players who can not or do not want to commit to the time-intensive raid schedules of traditional "hardcore" guilds.
      However, we still maintain a high caliber player environment and make an efficient use of our raiding time.
      We raid Tuesdays and Thursdays from 7:00 - 11:00 PST, just 8 hours a week and never more.
       
      We are very protective of our guild environment and selective in recruitment. We are looking for solid players mechanically as well as intellectually.
      We all get paid to deal with idiots, why should we pay to spend our leisure time with them as well?
       
      Skunkworks has been around for multiple expansions and has historically always been at the top of the 2-night raiding guild scene.
       
      Past Raiding Achievements
       
      #US 199 Mythic KJ #US 186 Mythic Archimonde #131 US Heroic Garrosh #68 US Heroic Ra-den #77 US Heroic Lei Shen #86 US Heroic Sha of Fear #106 US Heroic Madness of Deathwing #99 US Heroic Ragnaros #147 US Sinestra #91 US Heroic The Twilight Destroyer (Halion) #71 US Heroic Fall of the Lich King #247 US Tribute to Insanity #160 US Alone in the Darkness Current Guild Needs
      Amazing Range DPS ---Exceptional Candidates always considered regardless of recruiting needs.
       
      How to Apply
      Apply with Google Forms
      https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeL-LW1-7rRK28Z3Nswg4xD3-jjQWrIsCh77rYOdxKwY0oPPQ/viewform.
      All applications are kept private.
      Please include at least the following.
          Prominent links to relevant armory pages ]A guild history with reasons for departure
          The reason(s) you have chosen to apply to this guild
          Warcraft Logs
          UI screenshots or fraps/Stream footage
       
      Contact Information
      Shadaka (GM)
      Real ID:Shadak#1881
       
      Aerivore (Recruitment Officers)
      Real ID:  Aerivore#1581
       
      Sovm
      Real ID: Sov#1192
    • By FoxShine
      Hello! This is Fox from Velocity. We're a daytime Mythic raiding guild on Sargeras looking to enhance our roster with skilled and reliable players.
      The goal of Velocity is to take down mythic bosses and have fun doing it. We believe the two are not mutually exclusive! We’re searching for like-minded players who are interested in playing at a high level in a laid-back environment. If you can joke around, then focus up when you need to; this is the guild for you. 
      Our core is composed of veteran raiders. Some of us have been playing together for years, and some of us are new friends. We have a solid core
      for our dream team – we’re just searching for a few more to help round it out! 
        [A] <Velocity> 5/11M, 11/11H – (5/9M 7/10M 7/7M)

      Raid Times: 10am-1pm CST | Tues/Wed/Thurs 
        Recruitment Needs
      Melee – Monk Monk Monk
      Ranged DPS! – Ele Shaman, Boomkin, Warlock
      Healers! - The Flexier the better. Priest, Disc/Holy. Pally or Monk
      Tank – Flex
      Note: We are primarily looking for ranged DPS, but we will consider any good player.
       


      Requirements
      Players with some mythic raiding experienced is preferred. Looking for players that are geared and ready to jump into mythic content straight away or very soon. 


      Attendance
      We are a guild of dedicated and ambitious players. Commitment to our raid times is mandatory. We’re interested in consistent players who are realistic and honest about their day-to-day schedule. Raiders are required to communicate any tardiness or absences via a Discord channel or through tells with an officer. Schedules change, things come up and real life always comes first. All we ask for is a heads up!


      Trial Period
      Three weeks from start date or 9 consecutive days demonstrating attendance and play. Start date begins on the 1st raid day you are present.



      What you can Expect from us:
      Dedicated leadership, communication, well defined goals, and a sense of community. Apart from raiding we also run M+ with each other every week. 


      What we expect from you:
      90% Attendance. Players who can survive and react to mechanics while excelling at their role of damage or healing. Many players struggle to do one, we are looking for both. Apart from this, just be a friendly player who’s always striving to improve. It might also be a good idea to bring a sense of humor.



      If we sound like a good fit, let us know! Leave a reply here or send us a tell on BNET/Discord. Or you can go old school and send in-game mail to Starby-Sargeras or Foxshine-Sargeras! Thanks for checking us out and we hope to see you in gchat soon. =)



      BNET
      Fox#1713 (GM)
      Peach#1423 (Officer)
      Ezmaya#1410 (Officer)

      Discord
      Fox#7009
      Starby#8682
    • By Decimous
      Hey all, I am an Officer for the guild The Fever, progression focus raid guild on Mal'ganis(US) Horde Side. We are also part of a multi-game community with over 1000 ACTIVE members among all our titles, with all levels of skill of play. We are looking for mature, non-toxic players to fill our ranks, regardless of level of skill. For those who just want an awesome community to play WoW with, or maybe are interested in raiding we have an environment for that as well. Our main core raid days are Tuesday/Thursday 8pm to 11pm CST. We are 11/11normal ABT and looking to fill our ranks for normal/heroic raiding. In need of melee dps and a hunter atm. Accepting all skilled players and casual players as well. If a guild like this sounds awesome to you, we would love to hear from you. We also play D3, OW, SC2, PUBG, and other titles, so even when the raid is over and your character is maxed on weekly activities you can always find someone to chill and play games with. Potential members applying to Fever must be at least 18 years or older. You can become a member by registering, submitting an application, and then completing an interview on our Discord server. The interview is quick and nothing to worry about! This is something we can discuss after you raid with us if you prefer. Register here: http://feverclan.com/forums/register.php Submit application: http://feverclan.com/forums/misc.php?do=application Interviews: Conducted on our Discord server Questions? Want to talk or play some? Add myself Decimous#1562 on Bnet or Decimous#4606 on Discord. You can also contact our Guild Leader Aisper at  Aisper#1260 on Bnet or Aipser#0990 on Discord. See you on Azeroth! 
      -Decimous
    • By Thanagore
      Hey!
      <Growth> is a newly formed guild and we're currently looking for active raiders! The principles of the guild are to respect each other and be willing to both learn and help. We want to do weekly HC clears and progress into Mythic Antorus. Right now we are looking for all roles and classes. 
      If you are interested then write here or contact @Thanagore on the Draenor realm.