Durantye

25-Heroic DPS issues

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I am trying to get some advice from other warlocks that have done 25-man heroic runs and found ways to make your DPS higher.

 

I don't feel I perform poorly (excpet of sha of pride as I've died every time except this most recent one) but I definitely feel I could perform better, http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/stormreaver/durantye/

 

http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/305598/

 

I want to make sure I'm performing to my highest ability and any tips and tricks would be openly welcome as well as any nooby mistakes I may have made.

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I genuinely don't know why you've posted. Looking at your logs you are the best performer in your group on almost every fight. That along with your gear ilvl and guild's progress, it's pretty clear to me that you're no scrub who's new to playing the class / spec.

 

Everybody can perform better, but you don't have the glaring issues that most people who are asking for help do. You should be at a point where the minor flaws in your play are ones you can pick up on yourself. 

 

You can be very happy with your dps as is

Edited by Oldtrout

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I'm not exactly looking for like 'Immolate uptime could be higher' but perhaps more along the lines of using a different talent on a fight for say general Nazgrim since we aren't a fully optimized 25 yet our raid leader doesn't want to burn defensive so I've been trying to test gosup. I use mannoroths fury on as many fights as possible, I havoc iron jug and incinerate the bombs for extra embers just things like that mostly for parsing. I don't really have problems getting 75-90% on most fights but 95 eludes me.

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here's my raidbots profile http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/ner%27zhul/vexyl/ i hit 95+ on pretty much every fight. exceptions are sha and spoils and kinda thok due to our shitty strat. i never get tricks of the trade or any gimmicky shit like that.

 

your raidbots is probably among the better ones that i've inspected from people on this forum but it IS kinda bad you're not hitting 95th+ on your gear if i'm being critical.

 

IJ comparison: http://raidbots.com/comparebot/531be0ce74254e4f66000046#damage

someone is probably going to yell at me with math about this but here goes. i reforge mastery>haste>crit, you reforge mastery>crit>haste. we have equal amounts of mastery. if you look at the comparison, i just have more casts of everything than you (thanks to haste) and you only have a higher crit rate than me on incinerates. the average damage of almost all your spells is lower than mine, and not just by the ~2 ilvls that separate us. btw ignore how raidbots says i got 2 bloodlusts, i only got 1.

 

cant look at the rest right now but there's a starting point. try mastery>haste stat priority

Edited by mediocregatsby

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I'm going to switch and try it out I still don't see how you are managing 440k on single target for 4 minutes 30 seconds though I just did a siegecrafter kill on flex with 3 minutes barely finished at 420 with only down to go lol.

Edited by Durantye

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Im finally going to play farm content for the first time in months next Thursday. Will post logs and I want you guys to rip the shit out of every mistake I make.

Edit: spelling on phone sucks

Edited by Liquidsteel

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I'm going to switch and try it out I still don't see how you are managing 440k on single target for 4 minutes 30 seconds though I just did a siegecrafter kill on flex with 3 minutes barely finished at 420 with only down to go lol.

 

just dont expect a sudden and drastic improvement. takes a while getting used to the playstyle difference with a massive haste change. overall i just feel like high haste is more "controllable" (for lack of a better word). the inefficiency from <1.0 incinerate casts is pretty unfortunate but impacts me a bit less since i play undead (hooray passive racial)

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So far the increase in dps has been phenomenal on Immerseus I went up by nearly 100k (then the fight bugged and lost like 70k of it because of having to grip globs.) Protectors was nearly 100k too so far.

 

Died on Norushen but still did better than usual on him even with being dead for roughly 30 seconds.

 

Did well on Sha and okay on Galakras, was doing amazing on Iron Jug till I died, I did meh on Shamans as well.

 

On Nazgrim I did okayish but we don't burn defensive so that can't be helped.

 

Malkorok came with a rank, and spoils would've been as well but I started on wrong side.

Edited by Durantye

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awesome :D i guess a sudden and drastic improvement actually happened, unlike my prediction lol

 

it looks like you struggle on fights with adds/AOE (galakras, shamans, nazgrim). you should be able to hit 95+ on all of those, even assuming slow dps strats. my raid splits up the shamans with 3 eles stealing all the slime damage and i manage 96th percentile when i remember to log from my side. on nazgrim the ranged arent even allowed to touch the boss during berserker and there is 0 boss dps during defensive stance but i've hit 96th there too. 

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I genuinely want to know what you do on Nazgrim then, I do everything I can think of I shadowburn cleave with havoc plus we are allowed to nuke boss in berserker once adds are down, the other Destro locks in our group can never even touch me but there is clearly something I am still missing, you had 8% of ur damage from rain of fire did you use mannoroth's fury? I finished at 390-395k, I know I'm probably a little unlucky with my trinkets procing when he in defensive and having a lot of downtime with them but other than that I can't think of much.

Edited by Durantye

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i've tried AD, KJC, and MF on nazgrim, they dont make that big of a difference. i probably had MF on my highest parse but i am experimenting with AD and saving a darksoul for bloodlust (2nd berserker stance). 

 

maybe there's a problem with your raid positioning? we try to stack the 3 adds as much as possible, in which case i'll multidot and ROF (but not FNB). i don't think there's anything special or not obvious that i'm doing differently. given your weaker numbers on multitarget fights, i feel like you're either not havoc cleaving at the best times or just not fast enough about it. i don't have a set in stone rule for havoc, but on a fight like nazgrim i dont use it on cooldown everytime. you definitely need to give thought on the fly about a havoc opportunity coming up in the next 10 seconds or reacting to 2 procs going off or using it to generate embers. 

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I usually havoc on CD with a chaos bolt on the adds and Nazgrim unless he's in defensive then I havoc the adds together. I also make sure to pay attention to their hp and if they start to get low I'll use havoc on shadowburns. I do well on spoils I got 93rd percentile last night and that was with accidentally starting on the wrong side and having to switch. I feel it is mostly Galakras and General Nazgrim that I encounter issues Shamans I'm fairly certain is just low dps on the slimes as I end up having to clip incinerates a lot and end up messing up dps in general. I'll be testing Thok and Siege tonight, though Siege is never a problem as I rank on it though thok is a bit of an issue but might get smoothed out with haste build.

 

I'm fairly certain General Nazgrim could be better with better raid strat but our raid leader feels no need to allow parsing until the tier is completed and on farm. We don't stack the adds even in the slightest they are generally completely spread out to the point where rain of fire is worthless.

Edited by Durantye

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that nazgrim strat makes no sense. the fight will be EASIER if you stack the adds. the numbers arent inflated if the damage 100% helps kill the boss in a faster/safer/smoother way.

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I'm fairly certain General Nazgrim could be better with better raid strat but our raid leader feels no need to allow parsing until the tier is completed and on farm.

 

How exactly does he stop you from parsing? You have a combat log and the ability to upload it... and parsing your fights is the most important thing when it comes to asking for help on forums.

 

That kind of makes it sound like your raid leader needs to learn a thing or two when it comes to improving his raid.

 

 

that nazgrim strat makes no sense. the fight will be EASIER if you stack the adds. the numbers arent inflated if the damage 100% helps kill the boss in a faster/safer/smoother way.

 

I think part of the problem with stacking adds is that, if you aren't using 3 tanks, you have to rely on whoever has aggro to bring them into position.

 

I realize some groups simply have the non-current tank pick up adds, but this has always seemed silly to me since tank swaps pretty much always happen when adds are up, which just means that the adds are going to follow you onto the boss, making the boss a potential target for earth shields and potentially in range of healing totems. Also, it means that your melee have to chase down the adds, which screws their DPS.

 

If you have 3 tanks, stacking the adds is obviously the way to go... but, without 3 tanks, that can be hard to accomplish. Different raid comps, different strats.

Edited by Belloc

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How exactly does he stop you from parsing? You have a combat log and the ability to upload it... and parsing your fights is the most important thing when it comes to asking for help on forums.

 

That kind of makes it sound like your raid leader needs to learn a thing or two when it comes to improving his raid.

 

I think he means that the RL doesn't change strat for better parses, not that they don't allow uploading. 

 

or

 

They could be loading hidden logs, this is a very common practice in upper end guilds to force raid members on focusing on the fight rather then their ranks. Many high end guilds don't allow public uploading of main raids even once a tier is on farm.

 

Personally, when I was a GM/RL/DPS Officer if a raider asked me to change a strat just so they could rank higher, I told them to sit down and shut the fuck up. 99% of warlock ranks mean nothing. Take a stroll through WoL, the ranks are cheesed to all hell. Very few of the ranks are true displays of skill, just testaments to how many new ways people can find to 1) fake logs 2) pad on meaningless targets 3) get propped up on their raids shoulders and carried 4) one in 5,000,000 chance RNG.

 

Example, right after I switched to warlock as my main I took the #18 west aff warlock parse, #53 all classes parse on Heroic Tortos with a 472 ilvl. This was about 3 weeks in to heroics in ToT, I had just main switched so my gear was dog shit and I was still getting the hang of warlocking. The raid strat was just to keep the bats alive the entire fight...SB:seed on the bats and let Corruption tick. The DPS was meaningless because the bats weren't kill targets. There was no skill involved, it wasn't even clever use of mechanics.

 

I looked at WoL, doing what I did was how #1-175ish got their ranks.

 

Near the end of ToT after we had Ra-Den on farm for weeks I laid down the #1 parse for destro, the next week demo, the next week aff, on heroic Iron Qun. The ranks stood as #1 world class parses (including the Asian logs) for 6 weeks, 4 weeks, and 3 weeks respectively. Again, meaningless DPS that had nothing to do with skill, just being the first one to find a way to cheese the fight parses. If you had a rogue mass stealth everyone pass the two big packs of dogs and pull the boss, the dogs would then count as part of the fight. Dropping 2.5mil DPS for the first 45 seconds of the fight going ham AoE DPS on the dogs meant a #1 parse. No skill. No cleverness. Just cheesing meaningless DPS for the sake of a parse.  

 

 

My point is that people should never put much weight in parses or ranks. Use logs to find flaws in what you did or how other people did better. Don't just focus on the rank. I've known a lot of raiders that rarely ranked in the top 100 that were ten times the raiders of a lot of people I see ranking top 10.

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I think he means that the RL doesn't change strat for better parses, not that they don't allow uploading. 

 

or

 

They could be loading hidden logs, this is a very common practice in upper end guilds to force raid members on focusing on the fight rather then their ranks. Many high end guilds don't allow public uploading of main raids even once a tier is on farm.

 

Personally, when I was a GM/RL/DPS Officer if a raider asked me to change a strat just so they could rank higher, I told them to sit down and shut the fuck up. 99% of warlock ranks mean nothing. Take a stroll through WoL, the ranks are cheesed to all hell. Very few of the ranks are true displays of skill, just testaments to how many new ways people can find to 1) fake logs 2) pad on meaningless targets 3) get propped up on their raids shoulders and carried 4) one in 5,000,000 chance RNG.

 

Example, right after I switched to warlock as my main I took the #18 west aff warlock parse, #53 all classes parse on Heroic Tortos with a 472 ilvl. This was about 3 weeks in to heroics in ToT, I had just main switched so my gear was dog shit and I was still getting the hang of warlocking. The raid strat was just to keep the bats alive the entire fight...SB:seed on the bats and let Corruption tick. The DPS was meaningless because the bats weren't kill targets. There was no skill involved, it wasn't even clever use of mechanics.

 

I looked at WoL, doing what I did was how #1-175ish got their ranks.

 

Near the end of ToT after we had Ra-Den on farm for weeks I laid down the #1 parse for destro, the next week demo, the next week aff, on heroic Iron Qun. The ranks stood as #1 world class parses (including the Asian logs) for 6 weeks, 4 weeks, and 3 weeks respectively. Again, meaningless DPS that had nothing to do with skill, just being the first one to find a way to cheese the fight parses. If you had a rogue mass stealth everyone pass the two big packs of dogs and pull the boss, the dogs would then count as part of the fight. Dropping 2.5mil DPS for the first 45 seconds of the fight going ham AoE DPS on the dogs meant a #1 parse. No skill. No cleverness. Just cheesing meaningless DPS for the sake of a parse.  

 

 

My point is that people should never put much weight in parses or ranks. Use logs to find flaws in what you did or how other people did better. Don't just focus on the rank. I've known a lot of raiders that rarely ranked in the top 100 that were ten times the raiders of a lot of people I see ranking top 10.

 When you were ranged dps officer did you feel like you could actually increase the dps of any ranged that were under performing by directing them to info or if someone was doing bad dps did you just replace them?

 

This might not be too pertinent because the guilds you're in probably had good people approaching you unlike the more casual ones I spend my time on.

 

I ask because the range dps officers in the guilds that I am in would always try to improve people's dps and nothing really changes. 

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a player that doesnt recognize his own deficiencies or doesnt have a strong desire to improve himself wont get better even when handed clear instructions on how to do so. most of the time you'll meet a player and even if you play with them for years, you wont see them fluctuate much in skill or performance unless they actively try to get better. it takes a certain kind of mentality that a lot of people (not just raiders/gamers) lack.

 

for me i just constantly have to remind myself there are better players than me, but very few things that can actually stop me from learning to match or surpass them.

Edited by mediocregatsby

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 When you were ranged dps officer did you feel like you could actually increase the dps of any ranged that were under performing by directing them to info or if someone was doing bad dps did you just replace them?

 

This might not be too pertinent because the guilds you're in probably had good people approaching you unlike the more casual ones I spend my time on.

 

I ask because the range dps officers in the guilds that I am in would always try to improve people's dps and nothing really changes. 

 

 

Kind of a complex question, it totally depends on what kind of guild you're in.

 

Top level guild, I'm talking bleeding edge progression vying for US or even world firsts, players are past the level of needing to be hand held and directed to self help guides. DPS officer in that position is more about working with the DPS to bring out there best, knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each player and how to use them best. At this level guild if a player NEEDS to be hand held, they aren't worth the time of the guild. 

 

Semi-casual to near high end (where most guilds fall if a player is interested in progression) it will mostly depend on the player. Some people are always looking for what they can improve and will welcome help from a DPS officer, other people want to be left to their own devices and fix their own issues without a DPS officer calling them out. 

 

Normally what I do is work with the DPS to bring out their best, until one of them isn't pulling their weight. Most times a simple whisper or three of "why is your DPS so low?" or "Stop sucking" is enough for people to look for the issue and fix it. If they want help reading logs, I'm more then willing to give it. If it's a rotational or uptime issue like misusing ele blast for a shaman or keeping SW:P up for a Spriest, then I try to give them indirect guidance to the issue. I don't like saying "You're missing the basics of your class" because that makes me mad at people "Check your basics" gives them a clue, if they follow the clue and fix it - good. If not, then I likely won't be able to fix them.

 

In the end it comes down to the player, if they want to improve they will. If they want to just keep on keeping on then all the help in the world won't help.

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a player that doesnt recognize his own deficiencies or doesnt have a strong desire to improve himself wont get better even when handed clear instructions on how to do so. most of the time you'll meet a player and even if you play with them for years, you wont see them fluctuate much in skill or performance unless they actively try to get better. it takes a certain kind of mentality that a lot of people (not just raiders/gamers) lack.

Yea I know its a terrible situation for the casual guilds and I don't know what the answer is. There's always a group of players that perform very, very far below what they can. I've tried to help friends out of bronze league on starcraft that "wanted" to get better, but they still don't even practice the first 120 seconds of their build, even though a solid opener alone can get them to diamond.

 

I guess I should just try to join a more hardcore one, not sure if I'm willing to commit the scheduled time though. I hate scheduled gaming with a passion haha, but love raiding.

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Normally what I do is work with the DPS to bring out their best, until one of them isn't pulling their weight. Most times a simple whisper or three of "why is your DPS so low?" or "Stop sucking" is enough for people to look for the issue and fix it. If they want help reading logs, I'm more then willing to give it. If it's a rotational or uptime issue like misusing ele blast for a shaman or keeping SW:P up for a Spriest, then I try to give them indirect guidance to the issue. I don't like saying "You're missing the basics of your class" because that makes me mad at people "Check your basics" gives them a clue, if they follow the clue and fix it - good. If not, then I likely won't be able to fix them.

 

 

 

xD haha, "stop sucking". How well did they receive that?

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i usually hand out a polite but firm "stop sucking" from time to time. everyone in our raid knows it's not a personal insult but just a "wake up and stop screwing everyone else in the raid, you're better than this" sort of message so they take it well.

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and in regards to your concern about casual raiding guilds, yeah the self-improvement problem is RAMPANT in those. there's really nothing you can do about it just by yourself. the other people need to earnestly want to improve and know how to learn or nothing you do will have an effect.

 

there's a growing number of competent raiding guilds that operate on a very light schedule out there. i'd say look for one on your server/connected-server and see how you like committing to a light schedule.

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and in regards to your concern about casual raiding guilds, yeah the self-improvement problem is RAMPANT in those. there's really nothing you can do about it just by yourself. the other people need to earnestly want to improve and know how to learn or nothing you do will have an effect.

 

there's a growing number of competent raiding guilds that operate on a very light schedule out there. i'd say look for one on your server/connected-server and see how you like committing to a light schedule.

Yea, I'm thinking about it, but I feel like a massive dick whenever I leave a guild so I might not get around to it. Esp since im on Mal'ganis I know theres a good few that are 11/14 heroic and don't spend more than 9 hours a week raiding. We'll see...

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xD haha, "stop sucking". How well did they receive that?

 

Normally they take it well, I've had a few people that didn't take it well and they were quickly replaced. The worst was a female that assumed that because she was RL friends (and I think sleeping with) one of the other officers that she was above reproach. She learned differently after being benched for 3 weeks.

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