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The Current Problems with PvP Gear Vendors in Shadowlands

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Blizzard has recently started collecting PvP feedback on the Shadowlands Beta, so we're highlighting the biggest problems with the new PvP vendors.

Blizzard has added PvP vendors back to the game, allowing players to buy and upgrade their gear with Honor and Conquest Points in Shadowlands, but the current problem is that the gear is very limited when it comes to secondary stats.

There are no Haste/Versatility capes, no Versatility/Mastery rings, which implies that you'll be forced to do PvE content to get the items you need to play on a competitive level. At the same time, PvE players never have to cross over to PvP to complete their own sets of gear.

That means the best gear from PvP does not come from PvP, so we will have the same situation as we did in BfA, where you had to clear Mythic raids to be competitive in PvP.

In previous expansions up to Warlords of Draenor, PvP vendors had items with PvP-specific stats like PvP Power or Resilience. So if a secondary stat was undesirable, you would still go with a PvP item from the vendor despite having the wrong stat since PvP Power/Resilience made up for that lack of it.

Blizzard can easily fix this by adding PvP-specific stats back to PvP gear or by adding 6 stat combinations for items on the PvP vendor, allowing PvPers to form a set with the ideal stats.

Game Director Ion Hazzikostas confirmed, however, that there will be no PvP-specific stats returning in the Shadowlands.

I personally think PvP deserves to be a separate mode just like PvE, and hope Blizzard will implement some improvements in the coming Beta builds to address the issues brought up in this article.

This post has been written based on the following video by Stoopzz_TV.

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A-*filtered*-men

Pve shoups grant the best pve rewards. Pvp should grant the best pvp rewards. Bring pvp scaling back. 

Edited by Mishmish
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As a PvE-only player, I agree. 

Just to play devil's advocate, though...

If a PvP item has no PvP specific stats and is available at high ilvl with any of the six possible secondary start combinations, what prevents PvE players from having to do PvP to get their BiS? 

I've heard folks say that there were but issues with PvP-only stats. That's not something I know about. But it does seem PvP gear needs something to distinguish it from PvE so that each mode can yield it's own BiS. 

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1 hour ago, KDF said:

As a PvE-only player, I agree. 

Just to play devil's advocate, though...

If a PvP item has no PvP specific stats and is available at high ilvl with any of the six possible secondary start combinations, what prevents PvE players from having to do PvP to get their BiS? 

I've heard folks say that there were but issues with PvP-only stats. That's not something I know about. But it does seem PvP gear needs something to distinguish it from PvE so that each mode can yield it's own BiS. 

You are essentially right, if all the desirable secondary stats become available from PvP vendors, PvE players could get their gear through PvP, that's why they should just bring pvp stats back. The current PvP scaling aura which makes you deal more damage the worse gear is broken and should go away as soon as possible.

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4 hours ago, Stan said:

personally think PvP deserves to be a separate mode just like PvE, and

"I personally think PvP deserves to be a separate mode just like PvE"... Then dont allow pve trinkets and other op *filtered* like that to be usable un PvP... They are moron seriously. They have all the answers and solutions, but chose to *filtered* the game because they dont care about pvp. Why having a mode in the game if you dont want to care about it and balance it to be FAIR for people only playing that mode?

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1 hour ago, KDF said:

I've heard folks say that there were but issues with PvP-only stats. That's not something I know about.

It changes the current 'you have to do PvE to be competitive in PvP' problem we're complaining about into 'my PvP gear is worthless in PvE'. 

And it might be tempting to dismiss that because, well, they are different modes. But it means you probably want two different gearsets -- which is universally-acknowledged suckiness.

And I found, at least, it affects the casual player more. Possibly because it's easier to notice someone's in PvP gear than it is to notice they're not stacking versatility, possibly because you notice yourself more easily, possibly because it makes more of a difference. Possibly I was just an idiot back then and people picked on my gear instead of my skill. I don't really know. 

Not sure if it's just a balancing problem or if it's really just a situation that has to have a downside. None of the solutions we've ever had have been perfect.  

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If the issue is merely secondary stats being available, isn't the problem that it's easier or more reliable to obtain them from one mode than the other? Instead of changing stats, isn't there some way to equalise the difficulty or chance to obtain them? 

Theoretically if somebody can fully participate in PvE and PvP to obtain twice the gear that doesn't seem too much of a problem. It's when it's better gear, surely. 

 

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Having a PvP-specific stat solves a lot of issues. PvE-centric players won’t feel shafted, and PvP-centric players will have access to the gear that makes them efficient and better at the thing they enjoy and want to engage in.

Why Blizzard doesn’t do this, we can all guess. From a gaming philosophy point of view, I think they’re generally against actively discouraging certain gameplay modes, especially PvE-related ones.

If they really want to solve the problem, just standardize PvP in Rated modes. Give everyone the same gear for their specialization. They could also have a Wild mode where anything goes gear-wise, but maybe that isn’t rated, or has a separate ranking system. Just an idea.

Who else would pay an extra $5 a month on their sub for permanent private arena servers, with pre-made characters only having access to PvP vendor gear? Sign me up!

 

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1 hour ago, Azragard said:

Having a PvP-specific stat solves a lot of issues. PvE-centric players won’t feel shafted, and PvP-centric players will have access to the gear that makes them efficient and better at the thing they enjoy and want to engage in.

Why Blizzard doesn’t do this, we can all guess. From a gaming philosophy point of view, I think they’re generally against actively discouraging certain gameplay modes, especially PvE-related ones.

If they really want to solve the problem, just standardize PvP in Rated modes. Give everyone the same gear for their specialization. They could also have a Wild mode where anything goes gear-wise, but maybe that isn’t rated, or has a separate ranking system. Just an idea.

Who else would pay an extra $5 a month on their sub for permanent private arena servers, with pre-made characters only having access to PvP vendor gear? Sign me up!

 

They could just have pvp power or something, where it lowers and increases the damage you get from players and do to players, but otherwise does nothing for the player, but the problem with pvp stats is that players that just start to do pvp will get massacred because pvp'ers will have pvp power and therefore be unbeatable....I think that is why they removed pvp stats.

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1 hour ago, Lithari said:

They could just have pvp power or something, where it lowers and increases the damage you get from players and do to players, but otherwise does nothing for the player, but the problem with pvp stats is that players that just start to do pvp will get massacred because pvp'ers will have pvp power and therefore be unbeatable....I think that is why they removed pvp stats.

 Yes, in essence that is why they removed it, because many people start the exapansion doing either PVP or PVE, but after that gets “boring” or they are happy with where they are they try and switch. Just to find their PVP or PVE gear is useless and they have to start all over. 
 The worst feeling was for PVE going to PVP and being One shot all day long and unable to do anything even though you may have too-tier PVE gear, mid way through the expansion. 
 Which is why Blizzard stopped PVP specific aspects or so they said, and said this is a primarily PVE game with some PVP aspects. 
 In my opinion the way to fix this would be to have a PVP power yes, but have a “basic” set of PVP gear you can make via professions, and how much you have of the PVP stat is what the system uses to decide placement, so  in general you will be paired against people worn similar PVP stat and it comes down to skill and class balance. 
 

 At least that is my opinion so that wherever in the expansion you decide to PVP you have access through professions to a basic set and your PVP stat helps place you against others of your stat level.

 

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2 hours ago, RavenOak said:

 Yes, in essence that is why they removed it, because many people start the exapansion doing either PVP or PVE, but after that gets “boring” or they are happy with where they are they try and switch. Just to find their PVP or PVE gear is useless and they have to start all over. 
 The worst feeling was for PVE going to PVP and being One shot all day long and unable to do anything even though you may have too-tier PVE gear, mid way through the expansion. 
 Which is why Blizzard stopped PVP specific aspects or so they said, and said this is a primarily PVE game with some PVP aspects. 
 In my opinion the way to fix this would be to have a PVP power yes, but have a “basic” set of PVP gear you can make via professions, and how much you have of the PVP stat is what the system uses to decide placement, so  in general you will be paired against people worn similar PVP stat and it comes down to skill and class balance. 
 

 At least that is my opinion so that wherever in the expansion you decide to PVP you have access through professions to a basic set and your PVP stat helps place you against others of your stat level.

 

Or, they could give the basic pvp gear (starting gear to atleast give you a chance) when you first start doing pvp, maybe get a quest, like Introduction to PvP, where you just get told to go to the pvp battlemasters or whatever they are called and they give you the starting gear, if its gained by another player or a profession, it means that players that make it hard to get such gear or force players to be a crafter, which they may not want to do.

I always find a downside to my own ideas. lol

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@RavenOak and @Lithari, those are great ideas. I don't know why Blizz makes it so hard on itself. It would be so much easier also for them, scale pve and pvp, when they're more separated. 

This expansion has so much potential, imo, just remove these restrictions on covenants and conduits and handle pvp gear the way the users above me recommended.

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Why should PVP be a separate mode? Why should a raider not be able to compete in PVP with the PVE-gear he put a lot of work into? An equally geared PVP-player will just wreck the raider. A PVP-player with less gear than the raider should be at an disadvantage but depending on the gear- and skill-gap the raider is usually still beatable. At the same time a PVP-player should also be able to use his gear in PVE. It is an MMORPG after all and gear should always have a significant impact. So in the end they should aim for the available PVP-gear to be as just good as the PVE-gear. The availability would be a problem but in times of big data they can see what percentage of players can beat content that rewards for example ilvl 100 and then give that same reward to a PVP-rating that the same percentage of players reach. (Always percentages of player actually doing the content/pvp not percentages of the whole population.)

Edited by hirlix

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1 hour ago, hirlix said:

Why should PVP be a separate mode? Why should a raider not be able to compete in PVP with the PVE-gear he put a lot of work into? An equally geared PVP-player will just wreck the raider. A PVP-player with less gear than the raider should be at an disadvantage but depending on the gear- and skill-gap the raider is usually still beatable. At the same time a PVP-player should also be able to use his gear in PVE. It is an MMORPG after all and gear should always have a significant impact. So in the end they should aim for the available PVP-gear to be as just good as the PVE-gear. The availability would be a problem but in times of big data they can see what percentage of players can beat content that rewards for example ilvl 100 and then give that same reward to a PVP-rating that the same percentage of players reach. (Always percentages of player actually doing the content/pvp not percentages of the whole population.)

Hm, I disagree. Why should someone, who has never done pvp, have everything already for pvp? It's a different type of content, so it should have it's own progression.

You don't have all the pets for pet battles for example just by raiding, because it's different content. 

I would even go one step further and separate m+ from raids with different gear, so you don't have to raid mythic in order to get you best m+ gear. But i know, of course, that will never happen, and accept hat most players probably wouldn't want that. 

For me it would just be perfect, if I could do what type of content i want, without having to bother so much with other stuff.

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18 hours ago, Lithari said:

Or, they could give the basic pvp gear (starting gear to atleast give you a chance) when you first start doing pvp, maybe get a quest, like Introduction to PvP, where you just get told to go to the pvp battlemasters or whatever they are called and they give you the starting gear, if its gained by another player or a profession, it means that players that make it hard to get such gear or force players to be a crafter, which they may not want to do.

I always find a downside to my own ideas. lol

 I do like that idea that you get it from a quest from PVP NPC, the idea behind the professions was to make professions more viable, but I suppose often with PVPers professions may seem tedious or not needed as you PVP for your gear. 
 In fact a great opportunity for Blizzard would be to make a short “starting” PVP experience quest to help highlight how to use your abilities differently in PVP to help bridge some of the skill and concept ideas between players. Such as stopping a spell cast if you anticipate a spell interrupt being used. It doesn’t need and should not be a long “starting” PVP experience, but maybe a way to highlight some ways to switch from PVE thinking to PVP. 
Just a thought though.

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7 hours ago, hirlix said:

Why should PVP be a separate mode? Why should a raider not be able to compete in PVP with the PVE-gear he put a lot of work into? An equally geared PVP-player will just wreck the raider. A PVP-player with less gear than the raider should be at an disadvantage but depending on the gear- and skill-gap the raider is usually still beatable. At the same time a PVP-player should also be able to use his gear in PVE. It is an MMORPG after all and gear should always have a significant impact. So in the end they should aim for the available PVP-gear to be as just good as the PVE-gear. The availability would be a problem but in times of big data they can see what percentage of players can beat content that rewards for example ilvl 100 and then give that same reward to a PVP-rating that the same percentage of players reach. (Always percentages of player actually doing the content/pvp not percentages of the whole population.)

 I feel in many ways this could be nice, but in my opinion the reason it is not implemented is because you would realize your equipment is not RNG gated or time gated through PVP. So in my opinion so many people would PVP just to gear up, and you don’t always have to wait for your group to keep working towards your goal to start. Because in PVP instead of hoping a boss will drop your trinket, weapon, etc. You can earn your gear through earned currency and you purchase exactly what you want. I really prefer this method of play, that every time I play the content I am earning a currency toward getting exactly what I want next. I like the RPG idea of picking it off a boss, but that idea is broken for me by realizing why would this boss be carrying half of this gear? LOL

AND if the gear was equivalent, the speed to get geared up by doing both PVE and PVP content would not allow a 2 year long expansion cycle. Could you imagine how fast you would gear if you could do Raids, Mythic+, and PVP in a week and all the gear would be equivalent!? You would likely do Raid and Mythic+ to start your week see what dropped randomly, then PVP to get currency to purchase you next upgrade that didn’t drop. Blizzard would likely need to do a more aggressive expansion and content release schedule and they do not want that because content takes time, and there would not be time to tune classes so it would be unlikely and crazy in general. IMHO 

So yes I like the idea, but I feel it reduces the engagement of the expansion and yes we all love the idea of removing the time gating, but without it the whole MMO concept falls apart and content is pushed to fast not as thought out or well done, is not as finished and the company cannot maintain the different aspects of the game as well. So yes time gating slows our progress and as a side provides the company more money, but that money and times provides us with more complete and engaging content. Now you cannot please everyone with each new aspect of content but in general it is better because of how it is done. 

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Its simple, I will not return to WoW until they fix pvp. The game is dead to me until they actually treat the mode with respect and dont hacksaw it anytime a single tear falls off the cheeks of a dainty raider.

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