Jump to content

Tier 1 Talent

Recommended Posts

For some reason I can't post a link in the thread, but my character is Sneakypeek on Argent Dawn.


I've run Shadowcraft on some senerios and I have questions.


I use T1 Talent Subterfuge because I choose to open with 2 Ambush, 5CP Rupture, Mutilate, SnD, and start rotation. But I don't think Shadowcraft can model it.:

Shadowcraft says 232,365.6 dps


Same T1 Talent but open with Mutilate with standard Guide rotation:

Shadowcraft says 231,647.7 dps


T1 Talent change to Shadow Focus open it Ambush followed by standard Guide:

Shadowcraft says 235,594.3 dps


T1 Talent Shadow Focus open with Mutilate followed by standard Guide:

Shadowcraft says 234,606.4 dps



1) In the math, why doesn't 2 Ambushes with Subterfuge and 5CP Rupture beat out 1 Mutilate with 75% energy savings followed by a 3CP Rupture entering the guide rotation?


2) Shadowcraft indicates the open with Ambush to be higher dps than Mutilate, so why is Mutilate preferred?


2) Can Shadowcraft be fed an opener like mine so I can compare?


The Shadowcraft numbers clearly show I should change the T1 Talent to Shadow Focus, which I can blindly do, but I still am at a loss for why the 2 Ambushes trail in dps to a single Mutilate with energy reduction. Any other thoughts?

Edited by Painagain
  • Like 1

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know the exact details of what's going on in the background, but simulations usually incorporate some sort of RNG into them and therefore produce slight variations even when modelling the same data. Shadowcraft is meant as a tool to compare various gear set-ups, so it uses a rather more rigid model, which constantly produces the same value for a given input.


I'd think that ShC doesn't always model things in the way you'd expect.


If you have the mind for it, you can get the source code for the simulation engine at the bottom of the ShC page. Then you can see exactly what it's doing, and potentially adjust it to your needs.


There's also Simulation Craft, which allows for a fair amount of customisation with regard to the rotation it runs. It also factors in a lot of RNG, so sometimes you'll get procs and sometimes you won't. It won't give identical results every time, like ShC does, but from my quick glances over both of them, Sim Craft seems like the more user-friendly one, in terms of changing the code.


Mutilate is preferred because it has a chance to proc Dispatch. Overall, the Mutilate will/should end up allowing for more damage, if you add up all the times you use it as an opener. Sometimes you won't get a Dispatch proc, of course. But averaging out 1000 fights, there should be an increase in DPS from the times that you do get a proc.


I've also read that it's better because it hits with both weapons, giving 2 chances to crit (free combo point) and 2 chances to proc poisons. Wowhead shows that it triggers "Mutilate" and "Mutilate Off-hand", so it seems logical that both events could proc a crit or poison separately.

Edited by Falcifer
  • Like 1

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mutilate having double proc chances and Dispatch chances over Ambush is an important thing to remember, thank you Falcifer.


Also, for Assassination, the actual damage from Rupture is quite insignificant compared to the benefit of having Venomous Wounds active. Taking a look at a random parse from a guild Assassination Rogue (Istackspirit), just the damage from Venomous Wounds was about 3.7 times higher than the damage from Rupture. This doesn't even cover the added benefit of extra energy regen.


So, to recap, Mutilate is preferred over Ambush due to the proc chances, and in turn that leads into the Shadow Focus + 3cp Rupture opener.

Share this post

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Create New...