Outlaw Rogue PvE

[Seliathan 9]

On 1/31/2023 at 5:30 PM, Guest Avengerx said:

Helloes!

I have a feeling the RtB usage has a few mistakes aswell. Current one states that you should keep the buff if: 

• you have  Skull and Crossbones as a single buff OR
• you have 2 buffs and one of them is  Grand Melee (unless the other is Skull and Crossbones) OR
• you have 3 or more buffs.

1st and 3rd points are fine I think, but shouldn't 2nd one state that don't reroll if one of the buffs is Skull and Crossbones? Or technically always reroll the 2 lowest ones, Grand Melee and Buried Treasure?

Hey there, sorry for missing this response. You keep all combinations of 2 buffs, except for those who have Grand Melee, unless the Grand Melee is paired up with SnC. It's a bit difficult to put that logic into a single line, but I hope that clarifies it.

On 1/31/2023 at 6:52 PM, Guest Hicksey said:

Yeah that works!  Most other guides have the tree showing for each build instead of the import strings, would be a little more helpful to do that but the string does work.

As the talent trees themselves are fairly big and take up a lot of space, we typically only include a single full tree, and provide import strings for all others. 🙂

9 hours ago, FeelsandNeeds said:

Hello,

Please do not take this the wrong way but hopefully as a constructive criticisms if anything. I just find it confusing the M+ tips page-(edit) mentions the importance of Gouge on 3 paragraphs but yet the talent tree does not have it. It seems it focuses on the stealth and all its cool abilities with Shadow Dance yet it does not have Count the Odds picked up in the spec tree.

Am I missing the big picture here? 

Keep up the great work. I do appreciate it. 

Hey! Always happy about criticism, so don't worry about it! As it states at the beginning right above the Talent Tree itself:

Below are the suggested talents for Mythic+. These talents are the highest DPS-enhancing talents, but some of them can be replaced for useful utility, like replacing Cold Blood with Gouge .

Gouge isn't universally useful in every dungeon, as we have many other abilities to disrupt spells (and so does everybody else in the group). That's why it's not recommended in the loadout itself, but mentioned throughout the M+ section, in the same vein as Blind and Kidney Shot are. I hope that clears it up 🙂

Regarding CTO, it is a bit of a divisive issue in the Rogue community at the moment. With the most recent nerfs to Fan The Hammer, picking up CTO *can* smoothen out the rotation and perform better than Greenskins Wickers. It does add an additional element of tracking CTO buffs, though, as CTO buffs are their own instance of RTB buffs and do not get replaced when re-casting RTB. I recommend simming to find out if (and how much) of a DPS increase talenting into CTO is going to be for you. The talents to remove for it, would be Greenskins Wickers for 1/2 CTO, and Heavy Hitter for 2/2. Your mileage may vary on this. 😉

[FeelsandNeeds 3]

Hi, 

Out of pure luck I got Mutated Magmammoth Scale on my first S2 dungeon. Immediately noticed it sims really high for me. I know it might be anecdotal and character specific but I wanted to ask if it wasn't maybe omitted by mistake in the "Gear and Best in Slot" - Trinket Rankings. Quickly simmed it against two bottom recommendations: Harlan's Loaded Dice and Ominous Chromatic Essence which resulted being above them (normalized ilvl).

Edited May 11, 2023 by FeelsandNeeds

[Seliathan 9]

On 5/12/2023 at 1:55 AM, FeelsandNeeds said:

Hi, 

Out of pure luck I got Mutated Magmammoth Scale on my first S2 dungeon. Immediately noticed it sims really high for me. I know it might be anecdotal and character specific but I wanted to ask if it wasn't maybe omitted by mistake in the "Gear and Best in Slot" - Trinket Rankings. Quickly simmed it against two bottom recommendations: Harlan's Loaded Dice and Ominous Chromatic Essence which resulted being above them (normalized ilvl).

Hey FeelsandNeeds,

trinkets have changed a lot due to the tuning up until and including the last few days before the new season started. You are indeed correct that the Mutated Magmammoth Scale seems to be performing very well for Outlaw, same as the Frenzying Signoll Flare. Mark of Dargrul is also performing better than initially anticipated, and the next update to the Gear page (sometime today, most likely) will reflect the newest gear and trinket sim findings.

Hope that answers your question, and apologies for not being able to provide updated gear information sooner. 

[Guest Antenne]

Hi.

Quick question. It's still recommended to roll grant melee away. But it gives a wooping 10% dmg buff if blade fury is active. Isn't it worth it to activate bf for the 10 percent? It sounds so much

[Seliathan 9]

18 hours ago, Guest Antenne said:

Hi.

Quick question. It's still recommended to roll grant melee away. But it gives a wooping 10% dmg buff if blade fury is active. Isn't it worth it to activate bf for the 10 percent? It sounds so much

Heyo Antenne! 

It's a good question, and one that hasn't been 100% figured out just yet. It also depends a bit on the build you're playing (Hidden Opportunity or Keep it Rolling). More accurate results will come in within a few days, as we had to wait for the patch to come to live servers to be able to get all the data to run simulations to really see how each of the individual changes to Outlaw affected the RtB re-roll priorities, but for now these rules are in effect:

Hidden Opportunity:
- Reroll if you only have 1 buff and it isn't Skull and Crossbones
- Keep any 2-buff combination
- Use Blade Flurry on single-target only if Grand Melee is active

The only change for HO is that you now keep a 2-buff that contains GM, whereas previously you wanted to get rid of it.

Keep it Rolling:
- Reroll if you only have 1 buff and it is not True Bearing, Skull and Crossbones or Broadside and you do not have Loaded Dice active
- Reroll Grand Melee + Buried Treasure if you do not have Loaded Dice active, keep any other 2-buff combination
- If Loaded Dice is active, roll away every 1-buff and any 2-buff that does not contain any of True Bearing, Skull and Crossbones or Broadside

As you can see it's still quite complicated. While GM has been changed and is no longer a zero DPS RtB buff, the other buffs are typically still a bit better as they directly improve our single-target rotation and do not require us to use a GCD for Blade Flurry (on single-target)

As for Mythic+, we are in a similar situation, where the other buffs simply boost our damage by more than GM would, although there is still lots of simulating and testing to be done to say that for sure. As it currently stands, HO is still re-rolling single-GM even in AoE. KiR keeps the same priority as mentioned above, but you add Grand Melee to the list of "do not roll over these" buffs (SnC, TB, BS and now GM)

Keep in mind that when evaluating a buff like GM, you have to also consider the benefits of losing another buff (or the chances of getting GM+another buff). The strongest RtB buffs simply boost our damage more, than GM would (it's still the weakest RtB buff in single-target, but not by as much as it used to).

All of this information will be part of the guide within a day or two, pending another review. 

[FeelsandNeeds 3]

I am sorry because it might not be the best place to post it but Elemental Lariat - what the hell?

I can't get rid of it. At least not when following Raidbots. I sim myself for "Dungeon Slice". Buffs or no buffs Lariat always comes on top. I first thought this is because SIM shows me a huge favoritism of Vers and Crit which I decked out the Lariat with but I eventually got a 434ilvl neck with tons of Crit and Vers that is still below my 408ilvl Lariat on a SIM. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/c6o9rSZbBrqGd6nvF6bkSF

Wasn't it nerfed? Am I missing something? Does anyone else experience the same? I just returned to the game this season after a break and catching up. Any tips regarding this necklace situation appreciated.

EDIT: Interestingly enough Raidbots sim also shows me crafted weapons with embellishments as the top choice compared to other weapones even after I normalize the item level. Something like Bile-Stained Crawg Tusks can't compare which supposed to be the BiS outside of RAID. How trusted this sim can be? Because I do not see these crafted items mentioned to be so strong in any online guide.

Edited August 25, 2023 by FeelsandNeeds

[Seliathan 9]

On 8/24/2023 at 1:13 AM, FeelsandNeeds said:

I am sorry because it might not be the best place to post it but Elemental Lariat - what the hell?

I can't get rid of it. At least not when following Raidbots. I sim myself for "Dungeon Slice". Buffs or no buffs Lariat always comes on top. I first thought this is because SIM shows me a huge favoritism of Vers and Crit which I decked out the Lariat with but I eventually got a 434ilvl neck with tons of Crit and Vers that is still below my 408ilvl Lariat on a SIM. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/c6o9rSZbBrqGd6nvF6bkSF

Wasn't it nerfed? Am I missing something? Does anyone else experience the same? I just returned to the game this season after a break and catching up. Any tips regarding this necklace situation appreciated.

EDIT: Interestingly enough Raidbots sim also shows me crafted weapons with embellishments as the top choice compared to other weapones even after I normalize the item level. Something like Bile-Stained Crawg Tusks can't compare which supposed to be the BiS outside of RAID. How trusted this sim can be? Because I do not see these crafted items mentioned to be so strong in any online guide.

Hey there. This is actually a somewhat simple answer, which comes down to you losing an Embellishment, without adding another one. I.e. simply un-equipping Lariat will make you lose this specific embellishment, and embellishments tend to be fairly powerful. The GV neck you're comparing it to will also not be simmed with the 3 sockets, you'd have to add them to the item in raidbots first by clicking on the small "+" icon next to the item. Once we add the sockets, the neck from the GV is already slightly better, and it opens up another embellishment!



The best choice here, would be to craft the Slimy Expulsion Boots once you have another Spark available to craft. If you have two, you would then craft another Leatherworking item, i.e. a Belt, with a Toxified Armor Patch. This would double the damage of the boots, which are the strongest Embellishment you can get as Outlaw. You would also have to find someone to re-craft your weapon in order to remove the Embellishment you currently have on your Mainhand weapon. 

This is also the reason for not seeing the Crawg Tusks outperform any embellished weapon as the best weapon either, because the embellishment on the crafted item itself is adding a lot of power. Once you add another embellishment (and upgrade the item level of the Crawg Tusks), however, you will see that the Crawg Tusks are better than the crafted weapon.

So, depending on your budget, you should try to get the Great Vault Neck and make sure to socket it (most importantly, the primary stat gem). Then, if you have the gold and materials to craft another item, get the Slimy Expulsion Boots. These will be a decent upgrade over your current gear set. Then, if you still have resources to spare, craft another LW item (I simmed it with a belt, but any item works) with a Toxified Armor Patch, and at that point, you can also equip the Crawg Tusks for another small DPS upgrade. All in all, this should get you around ~2% more DPS (as you can see, they're ultimately fairly minor improvements individually, but it adds up quick and most of these items you will not replace for a very long time).

I hope this helps ❤️

[FeelsandNeeds 3]

@Seliathan

Yup, it all adds up now, literally! Thank you for taking the time to look into this and appreciate all the suggestions. I will better start working on these crafts and changes. At least I have a clear gearing goal now. You are the reason I on/off sub premium to IcyVeins whenever I am returning to this damned game. 🤝

[FeelsandNeeds 3]

On 8/26/2023 at 11:33 AM, Seliathan said:

Slimy Expulsion Boots

Or rather Toxic Thorn Footwraps ?

[Seliathan 9]

8 hours ago, FeelsandNeeds said:

Or rather Toxic Thorn Footwraps ?

Heyo! Thanks for your kind words, I'm glad that the guide and the advice was able to help you ❤️

As for the boots, Slimy Expulsion Boots are better for the Keep It Rolling Build, and for all builds in Mythic+. Toxic Thorn Footwraps do perform slightly better for Hidden Opportunity, but only by a small amount, and only in single-target.

Slimy Expulsion are also better for the other specs, so it's highly recommend to get these over the Toxic Thorn ones. 

Hope that helped ❤️

[Guest Diffrent Skill Tree]

Your Skill tree for Outlaw Rogue looks diffrent then ingame

[Seliathan 9]

On 11/7/2023 at 6:08 PM, Guest Diffrent Skill Tree said:

Your Skill tree for Outlaw Rogue looks diffrent then ingame

Hey!

Unfortunately, this might be a caching issue on your end. I double-checked all import-links and it is working correctly for me. Would you be able to take a screenshot of the tree, or the page that you're referring to, that isn't working correctly?

[Guest Nexx]

The poster is correct, all your talent trees are using 10.1.7 - not 10.2

[positiv2 950]

On 11/11/2023 at 11:50 AM, Guest Nexx said:

The poster is correct, all your talent trees are using 10.1.7 - not 10.2

Hey, the poster sent the comment when we had 10.2 trees on the site, while WoW was still running on 10.1.7, so he was having the opposite issue of yours. If you are still seeing 10.1.7 trees, I suggest clearing your local cache (if Ctrl-F5 does not work, then F12 -> Network -> Disable cache, then hit refresh). I have cleared server-side cache just in case as well.

[FeelsandNeeds 3]

Hello @Seliathan,

Just double checking here after checking sims. In Outlaw Mythic+ BiS shouldn't we have Toxic Thorn Footwraps instead of Waycrest boots? Especially seeing crafted Life-Bound Cap is on the list? Might be a minor thing but I do wonder if I am not missing the bigger picture here. Thank you!

Edited November 26, 2023 by FeelsandNeeds

[Seliathan 9]

On 11/26/2023 at 2:10 AM, FeelsandNeeds said:

Hello @Seliathan,

Just double checking here after checking sims. In Outlaw Mythic+ BiS shouldn't we have Toxic Thorn Footwraps instead of Waycrest boots? Especially seeing crafted Life-Bound Cap is on the list? Might be a minor thing but I do wonder if I am not missing the bigger picture here. Thank you!

Hey, thanks for pointing that out. That's indeed a mistake in the M+ list, as it should be Toxic boots in all 3 bis lists, not just Raid and Overall. Will be fixed soon. 😉

[Guest Drachen]

Looks like the BiS list for M+ is showing 2 rings in Everbloom that aren't on the loot table for this season. Also, the overall list has the necklace listed as dropping from Smolderon when it should be Volocross. Just as an FYI!

[Seliathan 9]

7 hours ago, Guest Drachen said:

Looks like the BiS list for M+ is showing 2 rings in Everbloom that aren't on the loot table for this season. Also, the overall list has the necklace listed as dropping from Smolderon when it should be Volocross. Just as an FYI!

Hey, thanks for pointing that out! I don't know how those two rings slipped in there, but the actual M+ BiS rings are both from Waycrest Manor: Thornwoven Band and Lord Waycrest's Signe. Will be updated promptly (with proper itemlevel as well ^^)

[FeelsandNeeds 3]

Something minor I guess but I cannot work out the suggested pre-stealth opener.
Looks like we are losing couple of seconds out of 13 on Blade Fury before we get to cast AR. So why not put RtB last? Having everything else paused thanks to Underhanded Upper Hand.

1. Cast  Blade Flurry 4 seconds before the pull.
2. Cast Stealth.
3. Cast  Roll the Bones 3 seconds before the pull, if you have the new set bonus already.
4. Cast  Adrenaline Rush 2 seconds before the pull.
5. If you do not have the new set bonus yet, switch RtB and AR.
6. Cast  Slice and Dice 1 seconds before the pull.

EDIT: would personally go for:

1. Blade Flurry

2. Adrenaline Rush

3. Stleath

4. SnD

5. RtB

Edited February 5 by FeelsandNeeds

[FeelsandNeeds 3]

Enchant Cloak - Regenerative Leech could be suggested over Enchant Cloak - Writ of Leech

[Seliathan 9]

On 1/19/2024 at 1:34 AM, FeelsandNeeds said:

Something minor I guess but I cannot work out the suggested pre-stealth opener.
Looks like we are losing couple of seconds out of 13 on Blade Fury before we get to cast AR. So why not put RtB last? Having everything else paused thanks to Underhanded Upper Hand.

1. Cast  Blade Flurry 4 seconds before the pull.
2. Cast Stealth.
3. Cast  Roll the Bones 3 seconds before the pull, if you have the new set bonus already.
4. Cast  Adrenaline Rush 2 seconds before the pull.
5. If you do not have the new set bonus yet, switch RtB and AR.
6. Cast  Slice and Dice 1 seconds before the pull.

EDIT: would personally go for:

1. Blade Flurry

2. Adrenaline Rush

3. Stleath

4. SnD

5. RtB

Hey, apologies for never actually responding to your last two posts. You would essentially gain 1 second of Blade Flurry, which is such a minor difference that it really doesn't matter, as long as you ensure you use all of these abilities pre-pull. You will see many rogues completely ignoring Blade Flurry as part of their single-target rotation and simply casting Slice and Dice manually, as the difference between using Blade Flurry and not using it on single-target is in the realm of ~0.2% DPS. 

Since this is over the entire fight, a one-second difference on your opener is likely a single-digit DPS difference.

As for the Cloak Enchant thing, you're right that technically Regenerative Leech is better, I used to include the regular Leech enchant since it tends to be cheaper and Regenerative Leech offers no combat-benefit over the regular version.

Apologies again for the late reply on the forums. 😞