Outlaw Rogue PvE

[rohnja 0]

Hi Seli,

I have some doubts on the outlaw rotation in m+, namely during trash pulls.  I don't currently play with MfD as it is a bit too much for me to manage at my skill level, so I'm playing with  Deeper Stratagem and I'm using the Celerity legendary.

The guide states to keep the ST rotation, but IMHO it doesn't always makes sense. Or maybe it does, so I hope with these questions I'll get to understand things better :)

1. Without any combo points and slice and dice up, would you open with Ambush > SnD > Blade flurry > ... or use Blade flurry as initial hit? Does it matter the number of enemies in the pull, for example with n+ number of enemies does is become better to open with Blade flurry or I should still open with Ambush even in huge packs?

2. A similar question comes in relation to using Vanish. In ST I would use vanish to get an extra ambush+ chance of extra buff from Count the odds, however I'm not sure if this is the same in m+ pulls and if there is anything I need to consider for this.

3. Is it worth building 5+ combo points into BtE and then use blade rush on a big pack? Or use Blade rush as soon as it is off CD even if I have BtE off CD, but first need to generate combo points for it?

4. In case you already have slice and dice up and 5+ combo points left unused from the previous pack how do you open on the pack?

 * Blade flurry into Blade Rush/BtE/Dispatch
 * Ambush > Blade flurry > Blade Rush/BtE/Dispatch
 * Something else?
My thoughts are that with Count the Odds  it might be worth to still use Ambush for the chance of extra buff, but it is also a waste of combo points, so I'm not sure what's better here. Perhaps this question is somewhat related to 1 & 2 above, but still wanted to check in the given conditions.

I guess if I was able to read the raw simc output I could answer to these questions myself :D However I'm not sure I can understand it very well, so I hope you'll have the time to answer. I hope this also helps other players to improve on their game :)

Any other m+ rotation tips would be an awesome addition to the m+ section of this guide :)

Cheers, 

Ronja

[Seliathan 9]

Hey Rohnja. I'll try to get through the points individually :)

1) You will always want to open with Ambush as we are running the Count the Odds Conduit. Not opening with Ambush would mean that you do not get to benefit from additional RtB buffs that last 15 seconds if gained by an Ambush cast from Stealth.

2) It is the same on trash, yes. Getting extra RtB buffs is very important, and Ambush by itself deals a decent amount of damage that then get flurried by BF.

3) You will want to use BR on CD, in order to maximize the Restless Blades benefit of reducing its CD. Using BtE>BR means you lose out on the cooldown reduction, potentially leading to fewer BRs over the course of a fight. 

4) You would still open with Ambush in order to hopefully get a useful CTO buff. So the opener would be Ambush > Bladeflurry > Bladerush > BTE/Dispatch. 

Hope those answers help a little, and there is definitely some Mythic+ goodness coming soon 😉

[Guest zavsha]

Hello,

Why is there conflicting information between icyveins and wowhead outlaw class guides for secondary stat prioritization?

Icyveins says versatility > haste

Wowhead says haste > versatility

 

[Seliathan 9]

Hey Zavsha.

As it say on the stat page, stat recommendations are general recommendations. The profile we used to plot stat weights showed a significant enough drop-off after ~300-400 haste, and getting this amount of haste is almost guaranteed as just a handful of items will get you this much haste. 

There are talent-setups and gear sets that will show haste as the best secondary stat way past this amount however, as talents like Deeper Stratagem, Vigor or Marked for Death each individually impact how good Haste as a secondary stat is, and this is only a single line within the talent tree. That is why we always recommend simming yourself to figure out what the best secondary stat is for your specific gear-set and talents, as there are a lot of variables to it that each affect the stat-weights in different ways and it is sadly impossible to summarize these into a single recommendation.

[Guest Mike]

Blinks combo points excellent rogue addon that displays current combo points much more obvious and imo just easier to notice since some mobs are very tall

[Guest stealthboi]

On 10/22/2020 at 5:00 PM, Seliathan said:

Hey RenegadeChewtoy. 

The guide is up-to-date for the current pre-patch 9.0.1 which includes a variety of changes that were initially teased as changes coming with Shadowlands. While there are a few new things that you will gain access to once Shadowland releases and you can level up to level 60, those will be added to the guide when Shadowlands is closer to its actual release. 

As of right now all the information in the guide pertains to the current version that is deployed on live-servers. 

its kinda outdated weaponmaster is not inferior to quick draw when using draw the damage is lower than instant poison that sucks and wehn using weaponmaster you totally take pistol *filtered* off bar cause you dont ever use it just sinister all the time and paired with triple threat condiut makes your ss and blade flurry damage go through the roof

[Seliathan 9]

22 hours ago, Guest stealthboi said:

its kinda outdated weaponmaster is not inferior to quick draw when using draw the damage is lower than instant poison that sucks and wehn using weaponmaster you totally take pistol *filtered* off bar cause you dont ever use it just sinister all the time and paired with triple threat condiut makes your ss and blade flurry damage go through the roof

Hey stealthboi.

Weaponmaster still sims ~0.8-1% lower even with triple threat, at least in all current sims I have been doing. If you have any proof to the contrary that would support a claim of Weaponmaster being the better choice with Triple Threat, I'm happy to take a look at them. But for now Weaponmaster is still the worst talent in the level 15 talent tier. 

[Guest frenzy]

so i am using a macro for sinister/ambush for nostealth/stealth this does not include after sepsis finish so i will lose my free ambush ... any idea how to fix this macro ?

 

[Seliathan 9]

Hey frenzy,

try using the stance modifiers instead of the stealth/nostealth conditional triggers for your macro. It would then look like this:
 

/cast [stance:0] Sinister Strike; [stance:1] Ambush

This should work as Sepsis essentially changes your stance to the stealth one, similar to how Shadow Dance works for Subtlety, but just for that one global cooldown. 

[Guest Bob]

Hey wanted to ask. Do you ever use dispatch when you have  4 combo points instead of looking for 6 when running deeper stratagem and you roll a broadside buff in case you dont overcap more with sinister strike landing twice?

[Seliathan 9]

Hey Bob.

You generally wanna finish at maximum Combo Points, -1 if you have an Opportunity Proc or Broadsides proc (meaning you finish at 5 CP as your next builder would generate 2 Combo Points and overcap/waste resources) or -2 (at 4 Combo Points) if you have both benefits (same logic, the Pistol Shot would generate 3 CP and you would be wasting one of them). The chance of proccing SS is generally not enough to outweigh the benefits of finishing at higher combo Points, even with Skull and Crossbones. 

All this is under the assumption that you are running Quick Draw. 

[Guest Anon]

Hey Seli. First of, your work is much appreciated. I have a quick question according the reroll logic, your guide mentions to reroll if you get Grand Melee + Buried Treasure. I've just checked rogue discord and it still states to keep any 2+ buffs? Is it outdated on rogue discord?

[Seliathan 9]

Hey Anon,

regarding the RTB priorities, its difficult to really say which one is the "best" one as all kinds of re-roll logics are within 0.1-0.2% of each other, and based on talent choices and gear choices whichever logic wins out can change quickly. For the sake of simplicity, the one on the ravenholdt discord was changed to no longer make an exception for GM+BT 2 buffs. I'll talk to the guys on RH and figure out what information to present going forward after we do some more sims, so there's parity between the guide and the information on the discord.

I'll update the guide accordingly and also respond here again when we've come to a decision.

Regards,

Seli

[Seliathan 9]

Just as an update to the previous post, as there is only very minor (less than 0.5% difference) gains and losses with different re-roll priorities, the old one is as playable as any others, as long as you re-roll single-buffs that aren't BS or TB. A such the information in both the guide and on the discord are accurate, and depending on gear configuration either one can be considered "best" within very small margins. 

[Guest Ashphincter]

Shiv should be mentioned in rogues utility the dispel enraged targets it’s handy as in keystones 

[Seliathan 9]

5 hours ago, Guest Ashphincter said:

Shiv should be mentioned in rogues utility the dispel enraged targets it’s handy as in keystones 

Hey, Ashphincter.

I'm guessing you're talking about the Mythic+ page correct? It is already included on the rotation page in the poison-section, but currently missing from the Mythic+ one. I will add it there as well. Thanks for pointing it out :)

[Guest Felix]

Maybe i'm bad at navigating. but i don't see any epics in the ''Best in slot'' category only blue gear. Seems kinda outdated compared to the other class guides.

 

[Seliathan 9]

Hey Felix. Due to the similar statweights for all 4 secondary stats, as well as the multitude of different avenues of acquiring gear, it is pretty much impossible to make a BiS list that is applicable for the wide majority of people. Your "bis" gear can change based on a few items you got in your Great Vault, that other people do not have, and as such I don't feel comfortable providing a list of gear that needs to be chased as it might actually be the wrong gear for any reader of the guide.  

It is always advised to sim yourself and using the droptimizer feature to figure out which items provide the best upgrade for your current gear.

As a general Guideline, the stats listed in the stats section of the guide should be prioritized, and a higher item level item will almost always beat a lower item level one. 

[Guest Arcerite]

If you are a venthyr rogue, the count the odds conduit says using slaughter has a chance to apply a roll the bones buff, slaughter was the beta version of the venthyr abilty and got replaced with flagellation so does flagellation apply it? and if so would it be worth casting flagellation from stealth since stealth increases damage done by 50% for the extra damage when paired with the flagellation conduit? 

[Seliathan 9]

Hey Arcerite. 

The way the Conduit is coded makes it only procs on Dispatch and Ambush. While Flagellation replaced Slaughter, it does not work with Count the Odds.

[Guest Moriko]

This line in talent review is obsolete "Cheap Tricks reduces the cost of your Pistol Shot by 100% for 5 seconds after using Between the Eyes. You can use Pistol Shot repeatedly to generate Combo Points while this buff is active if you are low on Energy."

[Seliathan 9]

Hey Moriko, thanks for pointing that out. Will take another look at all the PvP talents to make sure the changes in 9.1 are referenced there.

[Guest Stat Priorities Aug]

Um, there is no difference between these two versions...so basically there is just one?

 

The secondary stat priority for an Outlaw Rogue for Raiding is as follows:

1. Versatility;
2. Critical Strike;
3. Haste;
4. Mastery.

The secondary stat priority for an Outlaw Rogue for Mythic+ is as follows:

1. Versatility;
2. Critical Strike;
3. Haste;
4. Mastery.

[Wyr3d 0]

Um, there is no difference between the two versions....so basically there is just the one..,

 

 

Quote

 

The secondary stat priority for an Outlaw Rogue for Raiding is as follows:

1. Versatility;
2. Critical Strike;
3. Haste;
4. Mastery.

The secondary stat priority for an Outlaw Rogue for Mythic+ is as follows:

1. Versatility;
2. Critical Strike;
3. Haste;
4. Mastery.

 

1.  

Edited August 11, 2021 by Wyr3d

[Seliathan 9]

Hey Wyr3d.

Yeah, at this time, the secondary stat priorities are pretty much the same (which makes sense, since you mostly deal single-target damage and then flurry it with Blade Flurry). 

Keep in mind, however, that stat priorities are very dynamic and depend heavily on the gear you already have equipped, so you might have different priorities with your character. That is why we always recommend using raidbots.com to sim your own character to get the best possible information for your individual character, that might be very different than the generalized information we present in the guide.

Feel free to ask any questions you have on the topic of simming or stats for Outlaw :)