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The Identity of the Winter Queen's Sister Revealed!

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The identity of the Winter Queen's sister has been revealed. This post contains spoilers.

According to the "Winter's Sigil" quest, the Winter Queen's sister is Elune, which is really interesting because that would mean she isn't a First One.

The player is asked to bring the Tear of Elune to Ysera at the Heart of the Forest in Ardenweald. Here's the exact quest description:

Quote

My sister... After all this time... She did not abandon me...

<The barest hint of a smile graces the Winter Queen's face before it is gone. She turns her attention to you with the weight of eons.>

Attend me, player name, Take my sister's tear and come to the Heart of the Forest.

SPOILER_E0LM4boXoA8epPy.png

Image credit: Pebrocks

Source: MMO-C Forums

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To be fair, when you do the Ardenweald part of the story as you level (not the Threads of Fate stuff), when you bring Ysera's wildseed to the WInter Queen, she says "This is of my sister. Why have you brought this to me?" or something along those lines, I don't recall the exact quote. So, it was given away then if one was paying attention. 🙂

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37 minutes ago, Arcling said:

So much for Elune being "a true goddess". I guess some people aren't going to be happy about all these retcons.

Retcon? Revealing more information about some1 is not retcon....

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24 minutes ago, Lith said:

Retcon? Revealing more information about some1 is not retcon....

There were some old sources that claimed Elune was the only true goddess on Azeroth. These are obviously not canon anymore.

Now the only thing left is that place called Elunaria from Legion. I wonder if they are ever going to address that.

Edited by Arcling
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The more we explore WoW cosmology the less "true Gods" we're going to have.    They have to be weakened sufficiently for them to go crazy and be opponents, or have enemies that can be our opponents and still pose a threat to them.

IMO it was a mistake to start having us kill Old Gods in the first place, much less Titans, Naaru, and so on.    C'thun should have been WAAYYYYYY beyond anyone's paygrade back in vanilla, with containment being the only path to "victory".     Ragnaros similarly as an Elemental Lord shouldn't be taken down even in a weakened state by a group of sword and bow wielding adventurers.    

No problem with enemies like Nefarion or Onyxia or a Lich like Kel'Thuzud, in D&D parlance those are "beatable" enemies.      We should never have progressed beyond that threat level though unless heavily empowered and/or fighting alongside higher powers on our own side.    It's this power creep that's made Illidan somehow able to solo the Prime Naaru or seen villains completely wasted in the story like Nozdormu or N'zoth.    Blizzard is too busy writing rule of cool to have buildup, or when they do have buildup like Sylvannas they put way too much outside the game in $8.99 books, that don't appear in the relevant tier to boot!.

Edited by Migol
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Its not elune its eonar, she was the one that made the tear of elune, cause if you look at it the nelfs name it "tear of elune" cause they didnt know about eonar yet.

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I dunno, I like it.

Maybe it's kinda janky, but I've stopped taking WoW lore too seriously and approach it with the same appreciation I do Rambo.

Just do cool *filtered* and have explosions and stuff.

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29 minutes ago, Arcling said:

There were some old sources that claimed Elune was the only true goddess on Azeroth. These are obviously not canon anymore.

Now the only thing left is that place called Elunaria from Legion. I wonder if they are ever going to address that.

What was once cannon on Azeroth is still canon on Azeroth.  Elune may still be the only true goddess there... we are in the Shadowlands now. 

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1 hour ago, Arcling said:

There were some old sources that claimed Elune was the only true goddess on Azeroth. These are obviously not canon anymore.

Now the only thing left is that place called Elunaria from Legion. I wonder if they are ever going to address that.

Even in the pre chronicles lore Elune was a powerful being but no1 knew what she was exatly. Night elves beleive in her like she is a god but there were never real gods in the lore.

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What do you mean by revealed? During the Ardenweald questline she refers to Ysera's spirit as being of her sister's. We've known her sister is Elune since then.

Edited by mtmf

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2 minutes ago, mtmf said:

What do you mean by revealed? During the Ardenweald questline she refers to Ysera's spirit as being of her sister's. We've known her sister is Elune since then.

From that cinematic, both Elune and Eonar were viable candidates, Eonar even more so, since Elune was supposed to be a tier higher than Eternal Ones and Eonar was the one who made Ysera an Aspect.

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59 minutes ago, Teufel said:

From that cinematic, both Elune and Eonar were viable candidates, Eonar even more so, since Elune was supposed to be a tier higher than Eternal Ones and Eonar was the one who made Ysera an Aspect.

Still points more to Eonar since she fashioned the artifact, not Elune. The Night Elves named it that out of reverence for their deity, not true knowledge of its origin. Its quite possible that the world souls are intended to order the world of the living, while their counterparts are intended to order the world of the dead.

Also, it's quite the misconception I've seen going around that the leaders of the Shadowland realms are First Ones, when Zovaal refers to the Waystone in the Maw as a 'relic of the First Ones', indicating it predates him and his siblings.

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1 hour ago, SidonisAntares said:

Still points more to Eonar since she fashioned the artifact, not Elune. The Night Elves named it that out of reverence for their deity, not true knowledge of its origin. Its quite possible that the world souls are intended to order the world of the living, while their counterparts are intended to order the world of the dead.

Also, it's quite the misconception I've seen going around that the leaders of the Shadowland realms are First Ones, when Zovaal refers to the Waystone in the Maw as a 'relic of the First Ones', indicating it predates him and his siblings.

I'd like to know what is the source for the Tear's origin, didn't come across that one. Since there's no cinematic to speak of, there are some questions, though. I mean, there is a Tear of Elune there, but is it the one Class Orders recovered in Val'shara, and how did it end up in Ardenweld if it is. 

I'd also like Eonar as WQ's sister more, though, makes tons more sense themathically (the whole Life/Death, Spring&Summer/Autumn&Winter parallels). Feels like a huge oversight from Blizz unless we're reading it wrong.

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This means "Pantheon" of First Ones who shaped Shadowlands and created whole machine of death are on same level as Pantheon of Titans and surely it is clear now that Sargeras is way more powerful and higher level than Eternal Ones.

My questions :

- Who are First Ones ? ( Even Elune is beneath them maybe they created Elune )

- Why they created Shadowlands?

- How do they relate to Pantheon of Titans ?

- Burning Legion and Void attacked Shadowlands before so why Sargeras commanded his endless army to attack Shadowlands? What was his purpose ? Sargeras had a reason for trying to destroy the Azeroth but Shadowlands? Why? Who told Sargeras about Shadowlands? it was dreadlords who told him about Void and ...

- Aman'thul knew about First Ones?

- If Odyn is a titan keeper tasked by Pantheon to oversee and protect Azeroth ( and if Pantheon knew about Shadowlands ) why Odyn needed trade his one eye with Muezella to be able to look into Shadowlands?

- If Elune created by Eonar then who created Winter Queen? ( i don't think this is her true name )

- Which ones created first ? Plane of reality which Azeroth is on or Shadowlands?

 

now i have more questions than ever

Edited by Dreamcatcher

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1 hour ago, Teufel said:

I'd like to know what is the source for the Tear's origin, didn't come across that one. Since there's no cinematic to speak of, there are some questions, though. I mean, there is a Tear of Elune there, but is it the one Class Orders recovered in Val'shara, and how did it end up in Ardenweld if it is. 

I'd also like Eonar as WQ's sister more, though, makes tons more sense themathically (the whole Life/Death, Spring&Summer/Autumn&Winter parallels). Feels like a huge oversight from Blizz unless we're reading it wrong.

From Wowpedia:

During Azeroth's ordering, the Pantheon bestowed the Pillars of Creation to the titanic keepers to aid them with that colossal task. Ages after the keepers had completed their work, the Pillars would become lost and scattered across the lands of Azeroth - World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1, pg. 40

It does, as the Emerald Dream symbolizes Life through Spring/Summer, and Ardenweald symbolizes Death through Fall/Winter. And likely the link between the two realms is how the Drust are invading from Thros, given that Thros is a pocket offshoot of the Emerald Nightmare. That link is also referenced without much description in the Dreadlord report when discussing the forces of Life, and the link between their plane and Ardenweald, that could be exploited.

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14 hours ago, Veeiset said:

Its not elune its eonar, she was the one that made the tear of elune, cause if you look at it the nelfs name it "tear of elune" cause they didnt know about eonar yet.

But in the context of the game and us as the player, that would be the worst writing EVER. We clearly see the name Tear of ELUNE on the item and then she references her sister's tears... Why would they ever write it like that if it was intended to be Eonar?

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5 hours ago, Starym said:

But in the context of the game and us as the player, that would be the worst writing EVER. We clearly see the name Tear of ELUNE on the item and then she references her sister's tears... Why would they ever write it like that if it was intended to be Eonar?

Because think of this, ion said that we need to zoom out in the cosmic xhart, so the"buildings" un oribos and the first ones look a lot like titan structures, and as far as we know it the titans are not the primal force of order they are like the naruu for the light and the old gods for the void, what if rhe first ones are the primal force of order (they like the titans, seek to "order" things, and they are at war with Death, they are working with "life", they found the shadowlands in they original state they found the primal force of Death, and alonside life almost wipe them off, but life needs Death, so they created the "machine of Death" creating the arbiter out of zovals power, and use ardenweal as a point of connection between lifelands and shadowlands, cause think aeonar looks like "day" qnd the Winters Queen, like "night" but both are "life and order" also that si not his true name why they havent say his real name? 

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14 hours ago, Veeiset said:

Because think of this, ion said that we need to zoom out in the cosmic xhart, so the"buildings" un oribos and the first ones look a lot like titan structures, and as far as we know it the titans are not the primal force of order they are like the naruu for the light and the old gods for the void, what if rhe first ones are the primal force of order (they like the titans, seek to "order" things, and they are at war with Death, they are working with "life", they found the shadowlands in they original state they found the primal force of Death, and alonside life almost wipe them off, but life needs Death, so they created the "machine of Death" creating the arbiter out of zovals power, and use ardenweal as a point of connection between lifelands and shadowlands, cause think aeonar looks like "day" qnd the Winters Queen, like "night" but both are "life and order" also that si not his true name why they havent say his real name? 

I get what you're saying in general but a)I don't see what any of what you wrote has to do with Elune being or not being the Winter Queen's sister and b)(I think) they specifically said the First Ones actually built basically everything in the Warcraft universe aka they made the titans, they made the Eternal Ones the Shadowlands, the World Souls, everything. I might be misunderstanding what you're saying though, but just from an in-game point of view, showing the player an item called the Tears of Elune and having the Winter Queen say "my sister's tear" is just insane if it's NOT Elune, it's literally pointless to do that and then have it be Eonar instead for pretty much no reason.

Again, I don't understand why Elune is relevant to your above story at all? Is it that you think Elune is one of the First Ones?

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12 hours ago, Starym said:

(...)they made the titans, they made the Eternal Ones the Shadowlands, the World Souls, everything. I might be misunderstanding what you're saying though, but just from an in-game point of view, showing the player an item called the Tears of Elune and having the Winter Queen say "my sister's tear" is just insane if it's NOT Elune, it's literally pointless to do that and then have it be Eonar instead for pretty much no reason.

Did they? Titans are born inside planets, they are the world souls according to current lore. So if First Ones made them, that would mean another retcon (before this whole world soul stuff, Titans were simply a race of metallic giants from unknown planet). Not sure if "First Ones" were truly first, as universe began with clash between light and shadow. Anyway, it looks like Eternal Ones were the counterpart of the Titans, they brought their order to Shadowlands (and it does indeed look like Elune wasn't one of the First Ones). Whether First Ones made Titans and Eternal Ones is still unknown, at least world souls/Titans grew on their own. Could it be that First Ones have planted them into some planets?

Edited by Arcling

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4 hours ago, Arcling said:

Did they? Titans are born inside planets, they are the world souls according to current lore. So if First Ones made them, that would mean another retcon (before this whole world soul stuff, Titans were simply a race of metallic giants from unknown planet). Not sure if "First Ones" were truly first, as universe began with clash between light and shadow. Anyway, it looks like Eternal Ones were the counterpart of the Titans, they brought their order to Shadowlands (and it does indeed look like Elune wasn't one of the First Ones). Whether First Ones made Titans and Eternal Ones is still unknown, at least world souls/Titans grew on their own. Could it be that First Ones have planted them into some planets?

Depends on how you see it, presumably the First Ones shaped the literal universe (that's how I understood it at least) so presumably world souls and titans are the natural result, whether by design or just by evolution.

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On 4/30/2021 at 10:46 AM, Arcling said:

So much for Elune being "a true goddess". I guess some people aren't going to be happy about all these retcons.

This implies that The Winter Queen isn't a goddess.

The Winter Queen is:

  • Immortal if not Endless
  • Is the unchallenged ruler of an entire Demi-plane within the realm of Death itself
  • Even amongst the other rulers of connected Demi-planes her power inspires respect and fear

Let's get some perspective.

If The Winter Queen isn't a goddess, we've been defining the word improperly.

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On 4/30/2021 at 9:06 AM, Ixa said:

To be fair, when you do the Ardenweald part of the story as you level (not the Threads of Fate stuff), when you bring Ysera's wildseed to the WInter Queen, she says "This is of my sister. Why have you brought this to me?" or something along those lines, I don't recall the exact quote. So, it was given away then if one was paying attention. 🙂

So do you not know that Ysera got all of her powers from Eonar?
"This is of my Sister" isnt as clear as you think it is.

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      Players might look at some of the problems I just mentioned with DK’s and say ‘why not just rework them’ or some of the talents mentioned, but it’s here that I personally see how important Tier Sets can be with regards to the experimentation I brought up earlier: Frost as a cooldown-based burst cleave spec vs Unholy as a single target execute spec is only one example of how these classes could be tuned or developed further in the future, and aren’t too far from how they’re being used right now, so a Tier Set that pushes that dichotomy further has real value. For instance, the original version of the Unholy bonus veered far too heavily into pure Execute, which players quickly pushed back against - but a mixed version that’s more integrated into their ‘Undead Commander’ fantasy seems to have gone over better.
      Bonuses like these not only let us test the waters to see what you like and don’t like, but also open the floor to give sets texture against one another as we move forward - a bonus that was heavily interacting with X or Y might focus on a completely different part of the spec in the future, which really taps into the depth of our combat and classes over time.
      I could probably be here for hours talking about how cool I personally find the sets or how they achieve their goals, but I’ll probably cut this part of the post short. My last comment is that it’s also important to have a diversity of bonuses too. That naturally comes with having different designers playing off each other with their own styles, but it’s important to note that something that may not work for you personally (a crunchy numbers-focused bonus that gives you a clear mechanical output, or higher-fantasy stuff like some of Warlock’s creating new/additional demons) absolutely may work for others, so we’re really aiming to create solid legwork for future set bonuses and designers to give a great variety of experiences over time - which multiplied again by the raw amount of bonuses and classes, is certainly no easy task.
      As for your other questions, let me try and answer those in a more condensed way (I did warn you)
      How strong should a tier set be?
      This one’s generally pretty hard to answer, which I get isn’t super satisfying - but the short answer would be that they should feel similar to Legendaries in terms of power budget. There’s naturally going to be outliers tier by tier, but also there isn’t a ‘magic number’ to reach that is a one-size-fits-all response. I don’t want to create the expectation that it’s like ‘surprise, it’s always X%!’ because we want to retain room to try different things in the future that also take into account other environmental factors to the game’s current systems, but yeah. a TLDR would be ‘it depends’ or ‘they should be in relative balance with one another’, but we’re always aiming for a result that feels more flexible and allows for our colleagues across other teams to tune stuff appropriately around it.
      How is acquisition determined?
      Another one that’s hard to say definitely - many of us weren’t at blizzard or working on WoW when the old Tier Sets were around, and the game’s changed since then as well, which is why we invested in making Tier Sets this time feel really integrated to the overall endgame experience - that is to say, obtainable the Great Vault (which also didn’t exist then) and from non-raiding activities. This one’s gonna come off as vague, but that’s because honestly we’re trying a lot of new things that weren’t true of previous Tier Sets, so to say definitively one way or the other might end up being a broken promise. That said, it feels right to us that something that’s been kind of iconic for WoW’s endgame is achievable by anyone who plays, even players who join late or swap classes mid-tier, which is the big goal around the Creation Catalyst.
      There’ll be more information on that specifically Soon, so I won’t go too deeply into it here, but we recognized that if players heard Tier Sets were back, and rushed to play 9.2 and found it was impossible to get them because they couldn’t find a raiding guild or something, that might lead to a negative experience even if that’s similar to how they worked before. So, TLDR - trying stuff out, looking forward to continuing to try stuff out in the future.
      Are active effect Tier Sets ever considered?
      Lastly - not really? Actives have their place in WoW (like on some trinkets or special weapons), but often come with trade-offs for us design-wise that don’t currently feel right for Tier Sets. For example, they tend to be harder to use for the average player, but incredibly potent as skill level increases due to compressing/overlapping their effects with certain other buff windows for multiplicative effect. On the other hand, a lot of our ‘passives’ tend to be ‘active’ in the sense that you’ll need to perform specific gameplay actions to get the benefit (like pressing Pistol Shot more, or consuming a proc that you build up over time), which tend to work out better with the flow of WoW’s combat and be generally easier to tune.
      I don’t want to give the impression that we’d never try actives on a Tier Set though, just that there’s enough added complexity with Actives that you’d expect it to have to be a pretty awesome theme or special situation to be worth the costs or barriers associated. TL;DR - they weren’t in the conversation for 9.2, have things running against them, but could totally be in the conversation for future sets depending on the right environment + reasons!
      I know this was a lot! but I really appreciate your questions, and hope this answers them in a way that hopefully yields the insight you were hoping.
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