IC: Theorycrafting, Log Analysis, and Blogs

[Hybrys 199]

Hey Shamans,

 

I've been debating a few topics and ideas for additional content that could help raise the status of the IV Shaman forums.  IC = Interest Check, and thus, I wanted to see if any of you would be interested in the few ideas that I do have, or if you had any ideas of your own for things you'd like to see.

 

Theorycrafting

 

This was mentioned in a thread a little while ago, but nothing really came of it.  Are people here interested in more indepth theorycrafting of the way some of our skills and abilities work?  Or are you more interested in the broad strokes that I've been typically using in the forums?  Alternatively, are you interested in both a 'normal' and 'advanced' layout of the theorycrafting?

 

Along with that, are people interested in having meetings/conversations on voice chat about that theorycrafting (once it becomes more relevant)?

 

Log Analysis

 

This is something we really do on a daily basis, when Shamans come in asking for help, but I'm considering taking a page from Zagam's/Semi-Respectable's Log Analysis.  This would mean offering a free, Shaman (/Hunter/Rogue/Monk, the classes I can play well) oriented and raid-wide log analysis service and coaching, including 1 on 1 voice chat, with the intent of it to help player/guilds progress.

 

Is that something that some of you might be interested in?  Or is it something you feel should stay within the forums?

 

Blogs

 

There are a lot of valuable shaman blogs out there right now, including TotemSpot/Sentry Totem, Windlashed, and Stoove's UNconstant (half personal, half WoW blog).  That being said, a lot of them don't cover the full range Ele/Enh/Resto shamansphere.

 

Would you all be interested in another Shaman-thingy to read?  It could be as indepth as advanced theorycrafting about DPET/Searing Totem/Lava Surge 0.1sec gaming, or as broad as patch note analysis.

 

 

That's it from me!  If you can think of anything else that you or your fellow shamans might find useful now, as you run up to WoD, or while we're progressing through WoD, please feel free to comment below!

[Stoove 347]

"Yes."

[Hybrys 199]

"Yes."

You're so helpful, Stoove!

[Pandacho 286]

- "Yes" for not-in-depth theorycrafting on the forum with explanation in words how our abilities work.

- "Yes" for links to special 'in-depth theorycrafting for shamans' blog for those, who is interested. 

- I'm not sure that voice conversations will work for the community, because about 90% of forum readers are non-registered (when you look who's browsing forum it always like 12-20 registered and 1500 unregistered users).

- "Yes" (a huge one) for the log analysis. What I would add here - a pinned thread with the links and explanations how to use WoL, Warcraft Logs, AMR Combat Log, Comparebot, etc. Maybe a thread with an explanation how to read logs of specific class / spec (basic level) in screenshots - I read too much posts, starting from "I don't know how to read logs / I don't know where my logs are".

 - Blogs. This is a tricky one. It's good to read trustful and updated info, but the main words here are 'trustful' and 'updated'. So somebody will have to scan and update the info about linked blogs all the time.

- "Yes" for patch notes with comments about how it affects our play style. 

 

What I would like to see on the forum:

- WA (you already did this, Hybrys)

- thread about shaman's UI (every spec) with screenshots and video links to see how it works in the raid environment and explanations what addons were used. I'm not speaking about "Show your UI" topic, but about something shows the examples of best healers/dps UI with explanations what do they use and why.

- Interesting things and tricks shamans could do in raid content. For example we did Mogushan 10-man in 10-shamans raid (when T15 was actual) or solo healing bosses in SoO...

- Challenge Modes (I see that you did it for ele, Hybrys). There are blogs and threads here and there, but a big part of them or not updated or very arguable (speaking of resto). 

- Healing actual content with another classes. While  2- or 3-healing with all the other healing classes, I paid attention that many healers don't really know strengths and weaknesses of the others, do not cooperate and do not divide areas of ​​responsibility, but just 'solo-healing' the fights.

 

And one request: please, please, do not use to many abbreviations in explanations. Why? Not everyone uses them or can figure immediately the meaning, not everyone plays on English realms even if they read IV forum, when you explain something it's better to presume that another person is not a 'pro' gamer. When i see "2. PBoI/PPoP/AoC" instead of names, I assume that you were speaking about the trinkets (or maybe not?), but, gosh, it is so uncomfortable.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Pandacho

[Hybrys 199]

Thanks for your comments Pandacho!

 

For theorycrafting, is it so important to separate IV from the advanced theorycrafting?  Or could there be a regular and advanced version of each guide?

 

Luckily, we do have some pinned threads with tips and tricks to using and uploading to World of Logs and WarcraftLogs already on the site!  They're just in different forums.  If I was to do a log analysis thread, I'd include instructions on creating and uploading to WarcraftLogs, since they're currently the best bet for indepth analysis.

 

I was more thinking about making my own blog, and maintaining a well rounded approach to Shamans, instead of the typical focus on one spec.

 

Patch notes and their effects on our gameplay will definitely be something to write about.

 

For what you want to see:

 

Is the WA thread good, is there anything else you'd like to see, such as raid mechanic WAs?

 

UI threads/videos are a LOT of work for not a whole lot of content.  Along with that, everyone sees things differently and has different opinions on how much information they want.  That's why UIs like this exist.

 

Healing content with other healers should be covered in the Siege Tips thread, but it's a good point that synergy isn't a big topic.

 

 

I live on abbreviations!  What if I use popup links within the abbreviations?  For example:

 

2. PBoI/PPoP/AoC

[SparkSovereign 61]

I have a substantial math and CS background (I've got a degree that says it, too!) and would love to flex those muscles on some theorycrafting, since currently my research is stalled behind grindy connect-the-pieces coding rather than fun math.  Now that the term's over, I have a lot more time (or will, come June), but I've done very little actual theorycrafting thus far, so I don't actually know where to start.  If someone hands me a question, though, I'll happily dive into it, and if we start doing more theory stuff in general I can certainly chime in with suggestions or Matlab knowledge or what have you.

 

So, "yes please", and "delegate me a task, supreme leader".

[Hybrys 199]

I have a substantial math and CS background (I've got a degree that says it, too!) and would love to flex those muscles on some theorycrafting, since currently my research is stalled behind grindy connect-the-pieces coding rather than fun math.  Now that the term's over, I have a lot more time (or will, come June), but I've done very little actual theorycrafting thus far, so I don't actually know where to start.  If someone hands me a question, though, I'll happily dive into it, and if we start doing more theory stuff in general I can certainly chime in with suggestions or Matlab knowledge or what have you.

 

So, "yes please", and "delegate me a task, supreme leader".

Once we get a little more info on WoD (or I get a beta invite, here's hoping!) you and Stoove are the first two I want to connect with on math.

 

You're also my goto for Enh anyway, since I'm apparently trash at it.  Amazing on a dummy.  Couldn't execute in raid. =( 

[Pandacho 286]

Links for the abbreviations would be awsome, thanks :)

Theorycrafting. Two separate guides is definitely too much. Maybe one guide with simple math in plain text and a hardcore math hided in spoilers?

If you have enough time to maintain the blog and to cover all the specs, it's awesome for all of us :)

I still would like a UI thread, at least for healers. Let's put it in this way: many people just don't know how to create the right UI / don't have a time to test different possibilities / want to have it ready to download and working / don't understand the difference it could make. But when the raid has to use 3-4 healers instead of two because of their inefficient play, it turns to be a team problem and not a personal problem of the guy with the kind of UI you linked. I write about healing and healers UI for two raid teams and when we insisted for some of the healers to change their UI, the healing improved for about 20-30%. Yeah, some guys did not change their UI from BC days. And it could help to the new healers too - why not to make it right from the start?

I read a lot Siege tips, don't remember there tips for the 'healers command play'. But maybe I didn't noticed.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Pandacho

[Hybrys 199]

That's probably a fair point about UIs.  Maybe I'll see about more of a sweeping thread, for all healers, all tanks, and all DPS.  We do have things like this in the guides already, but not much beyond the basic 'these addons for this' layout.

[Pandacho 286]

I would add a Content with hyperlinks at the start of WA thread - it's too big already.

And I would add advanced auras and raid mechanics too, just make a hyperlink to them at the start of the thread and who's interested will jump there.

[Hybrys 199]

I would add a Content with hyperlinks at the start of WA thread - it's too big already.

And I would add advanced auras and raid mechanics too, just make a hyperlink to them at the start of the thread and who's interested will jump there.

It should have a table of contents; I had originally planned on that, as it grew.  I'm going to go do that now!

[Stoove 347]

You're so helpful, Stoove!

 

Sorry, I'm in the Netherlands on experiment (Gasp! Theorist in a lab. Explosions imminent!) at the moment and haven't had too much time to post. Basically, I'm working 11am-1am shifts (not a typo). Beam time is precious.

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

Back OT, I think the most important thing in terms of this is that presentation is key.

 

While I'm all in favour of hardcore maths, I really think that Icy Veins' capabilities don't match what you'd need for it. Here, I'm thinking that the kind of maths like what I post on my blog is best done in pictorial form. So either: use some editor to post the odd equation here and there, or move to a better platform (like a blog) to hold the nitty gritty on a blog where you can host as many pictures as you need no problem.

 

On the voicechat side, I'd love to try and find a reasonable time to do it. Problem is that a lot of you guys are US and I'm EU. Timezones be damned!

[Hybrys 199]

Sorry, I'm in the Netherlands on experiment (Gasp! Theorist in a lab. Explosions imminent!) at the moment and haven't had too much time to post. Basically, I'm working 11am-1am shifts (not a typo). Beam time is precious.

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

Back OT, I think the most important thing in terms of this is that presentation is key.

 

While I'm all in favour of hardcore maths, I really think that Icy Veins' capabilities don't match what you'd need for it. Here, I'm thinking that the kind of maths like what I post on my blog is best done in pictorial form. So either: use some editor to post the odd equation here and there, or move to a better platform (like a blog) to hold the nitty gritty on a blog where you can host as many pictures as you need no problem.

 

On the voicechat side, I'd love to try and find a reasonable time to do it. Problem is that a lot of you guys are US and I'm EU. Timezones be damned!

BEAM TIME?!  Nifty.

 

The hardcore maths aren't really a thing for Ele, in my opinion, or at least not to the specifications or depth you'd be used to.  I mean, I can calculate the theoretical average contribution of a Mastery proc (IE: Ele Mastery's value) as (Spell * 0.75) * Mastery Chance, which I think has enough data to be relevant and enough simplicity to be graspable.  The only thing that would get complicated would be things like value weight of stats as it applies to our rotation specifically (IE: Readiness' inevitable peaks and valleys of value) or graphs of things like SP vs Mastery/Haste weighting.  Which, for those, I'd rather rely on breakpoints and simple math rather than the real stuff.

 

You also seem to underestimate my insomnia and current work conditions.  I'm up and available for voice chat at as early as 5am PST, and as late as... 5am PST.  Just let me know when you're safe from lasers, and we'll set something more significant up.

[CptDan 25]

I've been doing the one on one as people track down my battlenet and ask for help. I always say logs hold the secrets if the universe.

Shaman blogs and information aren't usually very explanation or in depth so anything you add there would be amazing I'm sure. Also the IV guide is a bit simplistic for most shaman, and doesn't allow for a lot of flexibility for a player moving from say normals to heroics and not quite an expert.

I'll try to help in any way that I can.

[Stoove 347]

Also the IV guide is a bit simplistic for most shaman, and doesn't allow for a lot of flexibility for a player moving from say normals to heroics and not quite an expert.

 

That is the intent of the guides though. The difference between someone who needs the IV guides and someone starting Heroics is really the level of independence of strict guides: good Heroic players look at guides and then invent their own strategies to complement them (e.g. using Earthgrab Totem to unstealth the rogues on Nazgrim). However, the forums are just the place to discuss this kind of thing so of course I'd love there to be more discussions on little tips and tricks we can use on Heroic bosses.

 

The hardcore maths aren't really a thing for Ele, in my opinion, or at least not to the specifications or depth you'd be used to.  I mean, I can calculate the theoretical average contribution of a Mastery proc (IE: Ele Mastery's value) as (Spell * 0.75) * Mastery Chance

 

Maybe it's because I spend a lot of my day job doing maths, but I find ASCII maths utterly unreadable no matter how simple the equation. That's just my opinion though :)

 

You also seem to underestimate my insomnia and current work conditions.  I'm up and available for voice chat at as early as 5am PST, and as late as... 5am PST.  Just let me know when you're safe from lasers, and we'll set something more significant up.

 

A nice evening chat (for me) on, say, a Monday or Tuesday, would be cool. That's like between 10am and 2pm PST, I think?

 

 

BEAM TIME?!  Nifty.

 

Yeah, I've been at this facility (whose name is also the name of a cat food in the UK). It's somewhat impressive; basically an underground bunker filled with several electron accelerators and a bunch of magnets. Somehow this makes a laser when you put it together with a series of magnets which wiggle the electrons around (they literally describe it as "shaking the photons out of the electrons", which made me giggle).

 

All that for a weak infra-red beam which pulses once every few picoseconds.

[Tickle 0]

Just a couple of points:

 

1) Hardcore math DOES happen for Shaman, on Totemspot (particularly for Enhance; I'll admit ele has been lacking, and that's partly due to my not having the time to get it all updated, but Binkenstein has been getting back into it a bit) and elsewhere.

 

2) There's a great site already for log analysis by top players in all specs, including all shaman specs: SentryTotem.com. While it's obviously great that people want to do it here and elsewhere, you can be assured you're getting advice from someone who really knows their stuff at SentryTotem. 

 

I think it's great you're working on your own stuff, though. It's always nice to see differing opinions. If you're super interested in the in depth theorycrafting, though, TotemSpot can always use more contributors. You can also expect to see some in depth stuff on Sentry Totem once the alpha F&F gets started, and not just for shaman.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Tickle

[Hybrys 199]

Just a couple of points:

 

1) Hardcore math DOES happen for Shaman, on Totemspot (particularly for Enhance; I'll admit ele has been lacking, and that's partly due to my not having the time to get it all updated, but Binkenstein has been getting back into it a bit) and elsewhere.

 

2) There's a great site already for log analysis by top players in all specs, including all shaman specs: SentryTotem.com. While it's obviously great that people want to do it here and elsewhere, you can be assured you're getting advice from someone who really knows their stuff at SentryTotem. 

 

I think it's great you're working on your own stuff, though. It's always nice to see differing opinions.

I just meant that the hardcore math isn't as necessary, because we have some really simplistic mechanics.  I can totally see it's value, though.

 

Also, while I'm a big fan of SentryTotem and what you're trying to do with it, I think alternatives are always a good option!  Offering two sets of eyes on something is always going to be better than one, even if opinions differ.

[Hybrys 199]

As an update to this, and my current progress on some items:

 

1. Searing Totem; Is it worth it?

I was planning a little article regarding Searing Totem, but my math is conflicting with both SimCraft and WarcraftLogs analysis.  This is forthcoming once I have some real time to tweak SimCraft.

 

Early WarcraftLogs analysis says that it's worth less than 1% of your DPS.  SimC says that it can be worth as low as 0.00006% of your DPS, depending on fight length, which is 40000 times lower than their margin of error.  I consider 1% negligible, and would continue to recommend NOT using Searing Totem, especially when you're still working on perfecting other mechanics.

 

2. Theorycrafting, and guides.

As you may have seen, I've been working really hard on those upcoming changes guides.  I'll be hoping to spread those around a little more soon, as well as updating with some theorycrafting regarding Storm Elemental Totem soon.  

 

3. Alpha and you

I have made it into the Alpha testing, and will be taking testing requests from all three specs, as I have time to knock them out.  A thread on this will be going up soon.

 

4. WarcraftLogs Analysis

I'll be doing analysis on a case by case basis, and anyone who reads this can request any level of auditing and support, from generalized help, to spec support, to voice chat 'coaching' for when and how to improve.