Using Rupture as a Combat Rogue

[Nastynelbur 1]

Hey guys,

 

We know as combat rogues that using Rupture can be a dps gain, if used in the correct circumstance. Therefore, it is important to establish when to use Rupture.

 

This is what the Icy-Veins guide recommends:

 Rupture should only be refreshed at 5 Combo Points, after it has dropped (as otherwise it is not a DPS gain over  Eviscerate) and when you either have a trinket proc or  Deep Insight.

 

However, to me, it always made more sense to use Rupture whenever we are NOT in Deep Insight. The reason for this is because of the reason why Rupture is a circumstantial dps gain: it does less damage than Eviscerate, but is 10 energy cheaper. I would use rupture outside of Deep Insight because it would allow for more Sinister Strikes and Revealing Strikes, therefore carrying us closer to receiving Deep Insight. Once we're in Deep Insight, I believe it would make more sense to drop Rupture and instead only use Eviscerate, because of the difference in damage. Because Eviscerate does more damage than Rupture, the damage buff is more meaningful. Also, at that point, the extra Sinister Strikes and Revealing Strikes are less meaningful because they aren't advancing our Insight buff.

 

Given all of this, I would be very appreciative if someone were to confirm my own suspicion, or otherwise. Thanks for reading.

[Hybrys 199]

I've always been taught to either only Rupture on no/low insight, or just ignore it all together. This is because each level of Insight increases that damage gap.

Both ways work, really. It's better DPET than Evis, but not by much, and can often be ignored at next to no DPS loss.

[Nastynelbur 1]

Yep, also my thinking. Although, I'd use Rupture at Moderate Insight for the sake of increasing the time spent inside Deep Insight.

[Belicosa 11]

The only time you would not keep Rupture up is when a Druid's Mangle would overwrite it. And don't forget to keep Revealing Strike up as it benefits the entire raid group. Also, when possible cast S&D with SB and AR for a really nice boost, especially if KS is up. You might pull aggro and die, but at least you will go out in a blaze of glory  .

[Hybrys 199]

The only time you would not keep Rupture up is when a Druid's Mangle would overwrite it. And don't forget to keep Revealing Strike up as it benefits the entire raid group. Also, when possible cast S&D with SB and AR for a really nice boost, especially if KS is up. You might pull aggro and die, but at least you will go out in a blaze of glory  .

Unless you're playing with a time machine, these mechanics don't (or never did) exist.

 

Revealing Strike increases damage of finishers and offers a chance to earn an extra combo point for ONLY the rogue that casts it.  This has been that way for the last 3 years or more.

 

Rupture and Mangle do not interact at all.  Mangle used to increase bleed damage, but Rupture could not overwrite Mangle.

 

Correctly using Rupture in Combat in patch 5.4 yields a 1-2% DPS gain.  This is because it's damage per energy spent and damage per execute time is better than Eviscerate.

[Belicosa 11]

Good to know. I keep it up in spite of what I have read since I don't usually run with cat druids...and I guess I got bad info on RS increasing the damage for everyone.

 

Side question, do you pop tricks every time it cools down?

[Hybrys 199]

Good to know. I keep it up in spite of what I have read since I don't usually run with cat druids...and I guess I got bad info on RS increasing the damage for everyone.

 

Side question, do you pop tricks every time it cools down?

It's the best DPS gain (for others) to do so, yes.

 

Sometimes I'll go a little micro-manage-y, and I'll focus the warlock I'm sending Tricks, and wait for them to start casting a Chaos Bolt before hitting it.

[WaveFunctionP 3]

Insight level doesn't have any impact when to use rupture. If it's good to use rupture at any given night level, it will be equally good to use eviscerate instead.

 

Utilizing rupture *CAN* have a dps benefit, but only if executed properly. And even when it does, the impact is quite small and easy to mess up and do worse. I believe that in practice, most players that use a ruptureless rotation will perform better under most circumstances simply because of the reduce complexity, which allows them to focus more on fight mechanics, which will have a much larger impact than rupture will ever have.

 

if your dps is inconsistent, I would recommend dropping rupture until you are executing the basic rotation flawlessly.

Edited June 26, 2014 by WaveFunctionP

[Hybrys 199]

Insight level doesn't have any impact when to use rupture. If it's good to use rupture at any given night level, it will be equally good to use eviscerate instead.

 

Utilizing rupture *CAN* have a dps benefit, but only if executed properly. And even when it does, the impact is quite small and easy to mess up and do worse. I believe that in practice, most players that use a ruptureless rotation will perform better under most circumstances simply because of the reduce complexity, which allows them to focus more on fight mechanics, which will have a much larger impact than rupture will ever have.

 

if your dps is inconsistent, I would recommend dropping rupture until you are executing the basic rotation flawlessly.

The problem is that it does less damage, but costs less energy.  So for each Insight gain (10-20-30), that damage gap increases, and you go from losing 20k damage to losing 26k damage.  On an Insight to Insight level, it looks the same (because both numbers are inflated), but a 30% Rupture being cast and pushing off a 30% Evis is a loss compared to Rupturing at 0%, and Evising at 30%.

 

At least, that's my reasoning.

[WaveFunctionP 3]

The problem is that it does less damage, but costs less energy.  So for each Insight gain (10-20-30), that damage gap increases, and you go from losing 20k damage to losing 26k damage.  On an Insight to Insight level, it looks the same (because both numbers are inflated), but a 30% Rupture being cast and pushing off a 30% Evis is a loss compared to Rupturing at 0%, and Evising at 30%.

 

At least, that's my reasoning.

 

The dpe of both abilities scale at the same rate for each insight level, so the opportunity cost remains constant.

[Nastynelbur 1]

Uhh... maybe anecdotal evidence would be best here. Let's say Rupture does three damage, and Eviscerate does four damage at no insight, which is a difference of one damage. At Shallow Insight, Rupture would deal 3.3 damage, and Eviscerate would deal 4.4 damage, which is a difference of 1.1 damage. So, the opportunity cost does indeed increase with the insight level...

[WaveFunctionP 3]

Uhh... maybe anecdotal evidence would be best here. Let's say Rupture does three damage, and Eviscerate does four damage at no insight, which is a difference of one damage. At Shallow Insight, Rupture would deal 3.3 damage, and Eviscerate would deal 4.4 damage, which is a difference of 1.1 damage. So, the opportunity cost does indeed increase with the insight level...

 

I stand corrected. Sometimes I just fail to do the actual math and rely on logic too much.

 

As for your question, I've done some simulations with the follow line changes to the priority.

 

actions.finisher=rupture,if=ticks_remain<2&target.time_to_die>=26&(active_enemies<2|!buff.blade_flurry.up)

 

no insight preference

461289.8 (+/- 0.06%)

 

actions.finisher=rupture,if=ticks_remain<2&target.time_to_die>=26&(active_enemies<2|!buff.blade_flurry.up)&buff.deep_insight.up

 

deep insight required (icy vein's recommendation)

460609.5 (+/- 0.06%)

 

actions.finisher=rupture,if=ticks_remain<2&target.time_to_die>=26&(active_enemies<2|!buff.blade_flurry.up)&(buff.deep_insight.up|buff.moderate_insight.up|buff.shallow_insight.up)

 

any insight required

461331.7 (+/- 0.06%)

 

And for shit and giggles

 

no rupture

459104.1 (+/- 0.06%)

 

And for the analysis,

 

any/no insight vs any insight

 

~0.01% favoring any insight

 

This is below error, which suggests that it is insignificant.

 

any insight vs deep insight:

 

~0.16% favoring any insight over deep insight

 

This is above error, which suggests that it is an improvement.

 

I won't bother with any other comparisons. This was in T16H, which is may not be representative your actual performance.

 

Regardless, the magnitudes here suggest that it's not worth splitting hairs over.

Edited July 1, 2014 by WaveFunctionP

[Hybrys 199]

See. that's the way I was thinking about the math, but I was second guessing it after running some numbers, because their DPE is actually very different and I instead ran the Insight vs their DPE.  Although you can only execute Rupture every ~27 seconds, it was a reasonable gain each time, and Wave's SimC strings prove that.

 

Mind you, I'm the kind of guy that loves my .05%s.