Loot distribution / loot systems etc in WoD

[Peelyon 416]

So as a casual raiding guild we have always utilised some form of loot system.

 

Previously we have used EPGP (but have known a lot of people who have used DKP etc as well).

 

With the new personal loot available I was curious what peoples thoughts are?

 

We haven't raided much towards the end of Mists and SoO in particular, so for us its the first real stage of using the new system.

 

What are peoples current preferences?

 

Is personal loot > group loot in terms of overall loot drops?

 

We have had a little discussion that as the tier moves onwards, if we had a group of 10 players and 5 of the group don't need any loot from the boss then surely group loot would be better?

 

If so I'm unsure how to try and distribute loot fairly among the group and reward players for their efforts.

 

Anyone else had muc of a debate with their guild / raid teams?

[Pinkis 12]

Hello. 

 

I'd like this thread to become a discussion, as I'm having the same dilemma - whether to use personal or group loot. By dungeon experience I think personal loot is way better as overall it gives you more items per kill. I'd like to know if someone has numbers for this. If PL gives more loot - it's simply worth it for overall ilvl upgrade, as any item will be good.

 

However if PL doesnt have more drop than group loot, then loot distribution comes to play. As far as we've discussed in our raid team, the best option would probably be to use BiS list. What I mean by BiS list is that people make a list which items from a raid are best for them. Then, when distributing gear certain item goes by priority to those, who has it as a BiS. If it's not a BiS for anyone, or everyone who needs it has it - then it's a free to get for those who do not have it as a BiS. This means that the person who gets an item will not change it. Let's say, there are two weapons that are suitable for me, and another guy. Weapon A is BiS for me, and weapon B is BiS for another guy. Weapon A drops and using need/greed, dkp or any other system another guy wins weapon A. Next day we kill few more bosses and weapon B drops. I win that as it is an upgrade for me. In the end me and another guy want to switch weapons. So in order to prevent such situations BiS is best loot distribution system imho.

It has one major flaw - it's good for fixed raid group (we pretty much did this for SoO 10 man heroic (pre 6.0 patch) which we raided with 10 members, no spare people). But if the raid group is not fixed (which will be the case for 20 man mythic) the problem arises as we want to reward those who contribute to raiding, and give disadvantage for slackers. 

 

So I'd like to hear what you guys think about Personal Loot VS Group Loot, and about whole BiS idea (I know it's not new, some are using it in practice).

[Brewmonksta 157]

IMO it all revolves around the stability of your roster.

 

If you have the exact same raiders each week or a set roster then EPGP can be good as it will then reward the people that show up and will mostly ensure that the loot os evenly distributed.

We do EPGP for Main spec and /roll for o/s with priority on healer and tank gear going to the designated backups.

 

If you are more casual or where there are 5 people that come every week and 10 - 20 that cycle then personal may work better given that the EP ratios will have such a large disparity from the casuals to the ones that come every week.

 

The best way to ensure that EP hoarding and EP ratios getting too high is to implement an decay. We do a 10% decay per week. This means that people cant pass on gear waiting for a certain trinket/weapon to drop and ensure they have the highest ratio(hoard EP) because if it takes a few weeks to drop then the reciever of the previous item will have had the decays and the ratios wont get too far apart.

[Peelyon 416]

I think at the moment its more a numbers game.

 

If we have 15 people in group will the boss drop 3 items if it is group loot? Or just the "default" 2 items like in 10 man?

 

Obviously 15 people with a chance at personal loot is probably going to give more drops than the default 2 but if it is a guaranteed 3 drops then it may change our decision.

 

I haven't really researched it and was wondering if anyone else knows really.

 

Like I said we've used EPGP in the past but can't see it working in any useable way if we bring personal loot into play (or does it).

 

I'm not sure about the whole BiS list if I'm honest Pinkis.

 

I think theres only really two options.

 

1. Use EPGP as normal and if you receive loot via personal loot or group loot you take a GP hit.  THat way when you do shift to group loot (for bosses where only a few need gear) then PR still stands.

 

2. Don't use anything and hope by the time you switch to personal loot a /roll will be all you need.

 

From a personal point of view (my own gear) I've never been that fussed, it's always about making the group stronger.  But I DO want the right players to be rewarded for their efforts rather than a casual / slack raider

[Ther0 0]

Hi there, great discussion.

 

I guess that every casual raid guild struggle around this problem. I try to give you my insight, maybe it well helps.

 

 

As far as i know, since now it's Flex, the drop chance for a group of 10 is 2 100% drop.

Once you add people to that 10 people it will be something like :

 

11 = 2 x 100% 1 x 20%

12 = 2 x 100% 1 x 40%

13 = 2 x 100% 1 x 60%

14 = 2 x 100% 1 x 80%

15 = 3 x 100%

 

 

THIS should work for both personal and group\master loot.

 

Problem is that when i looked for this problem i read several thread stating that PL gives % more loots. On a random number from 2 to 5 per boss in groups between 10 and 20. So THIS should be verified. Because even if you can't decide who gets what, if the loots COULD be twice as Group\Master Loot it would be a huge (statistical) advantage anyway.

 

Now, you two talked about loot distribution, wich is a solid concern that would point to Group\Master Loot. On the other hand you have the randomness of the loot, making it possible to drop ONLY Plate armor in the whole raid (quite rare, but i saw 8+ SoO boss drops only caster stuff not too long ago).

 

On the other hand, BiS or not BiS with ML you can avoid that the same person will get more than 1 item if more people needs it.

 

PL than it would be a "guild problem solver" (if the guild sometimes fight for loot) since it will avoid the ML to get the calls.

 

I personally would like a PL that considers few factors, instead of being utterly random. For instance, since is a software "roll" thing, it could be set to avoid dropping the same loot 2 times (or at least if YOU dropped that item, the chance to drop it again will be utterly lower), it could be set to avoid that the same person could take more item than anothers, etc etc... Making it equal for everyone and leaving the joy of raiding by itself, withoud being troubled by your unluck or the luck of anyone else.

 

 

But i'm going off topic.

 

Personally i think i will push to get ML with something like the BiS method stated above Or maybe a simple "you dropped already, it goes for the 2° one). Since the simple /roll (our it's a small guild, no need for DKP, expecially considering the bonus rolls and such) could lead, because of luck, to an uneven loot distribution. After few weeks of raiding it could be set as usual, MS, OS, DE.

[Scaver 1]

In your thoughts u make one mistake... a boss can not only have more loot per kill... he also can hevae less or nothing.

So u kill 2 Bosses with 15 people and use group loot.U have 6 items (2x 3).

With personal Loot u can be happy if booth have 3 or more in it, but when boss 1 drops 4 items and boss 2 only 1? Than U have only 5 items.

 

With a good rooster... at the beginning every item will be useful for one of the raid no matter what loot distribution u will use.

 

We will see if we really will get more items with personal loot. But in Blizzard interviews they said, that the personal system will work in dungeons and raids the same way... and I had a lot of runs with personal loot where no one has become an item form a boss... but sometimes 3 players will get one.

 

The Worst run was with 4 bosses... only one boss gave loot for 3 people... the other three bosses gave nothing, except gold.

 

 

In our old raid (10man SoO) we talked about items and gave it to the player how most benefit from it and also the group (like a light loot council).

In WoD with a rooster of 25 playes for 20 myth we will use a combined system of EPGP and LootCouncil. EPGP will used normaly as it should be but the LootCouncil always has the last word!

This decission was made bei the whole raid rooster.... so I think it would be the best idea.

 

Ok... the BiS list is also a good idea but we want to reward players efforts. This will help to get a higher attendance for all... whatever they are activ in raid or on the substitutes' bench.

[Peelyon 416]

This is where I'm not convinced with personal loot.

 

The "feeling" that a progress boss or even a farmable boss early in an expac has a chance to drop NOTHING is pretty grim.  At early stages of raiding even if you are hugely unlucky and can't use an item at least you can disenchant and get a shard that can go towards guild enchants for players.

 

#casualguildproblems

[Dalwyn 0]

Hello 

 

I raided in a Semi- Casual guild  through Cataclysm, abit more seriously towrds the end. And we used a lot of different loot systems, EPGP, ML but also somewhat like the BiS system. 

 

Our BiS system was more of who needed it more, and not only if it was BiS for that one person more who it was the biggest upgrade for, and i personally belive that this would be the best system if you would like to Progress in a somewhat fast but still casual manner. 

 

So if for example plate shoulders drop that can be used for both dps and tank, you give it to the tank since he is the balls. (unless he already got them or better). Since the tank need good gear rather fast to be able to tank the harder bosses and such.

 

Ofc as everyone has stated in this thread all system has their uppsides and downsides, but i just personally think this is the best, specially in the start on a new raid and/or x-pac.

[Storm 426]

Group Loot Pro's:

-Consistent amount of loot (~1 drop per 5 people in raid)

-Guild can decide who to give an upgrade to

-Can give pieces for offspec if nobody needs it

 

Group Loot Con's:

-Either leave everything to rolls, or have to implement EPGP or a loot council

-Chance of dropping gear nobody needs (less likely with changing stats, but maybe you don't have any mail wearers in your raid at all)

 

Personal Loot Pro's:

- Every raid member could potentially get loot on the same boss

- No need for EPGP or loot council, and no fighting over gear

- No chance of drops for a class/spec that isn't in your raid

 

Personal Loot Con's:

- could get 0 loot from a first progression kill after spending hours/days on a boss

- If you get personal loot you don't need you can't give it to someone else

 

 

In my opinion it comes down to two main comparisons. Which is more important to you, the consistency of drops and control over handing out loot, or rng loot that may help or hurt you, but not having to deal with handing out loot. 

[Gwenymph 414]

replaced

Edited November 21, 2014 by Gwenymph

[Peelyon 416]

Anyone know the actual % chance of receiving gear via personal loot?

[Storm 426]

I can't find the exact % anywhere, but it's definitely somewhere between 10-20%. at best it's equal to the drop rate of group loot, and at worst it's about half.

[Peelyon 416]

Cheers for the info Storm.

 

Will have a discussion and see how it comes about.

 

May stick to what we know with group loot and EPGP and go from there.

[Tnuk 0]

Last Saturday my guild ran with 19 people and, with quite a few pugs. We downed all the way to Ko'ragh, but in the end, he only dropped 1 piece of loot for 19. I don't know about any of you, but this was extremely infuriating after we had already had 6-7 wipes.

 

Regardless, we have decided that from now on, we will always run with Master Looter. At least it gives loot, so if does drop a piece that no one can use, it can be disenchanted for still good loot.

[Orthios 271]

Last Saturday my guild ran with 19 people and, with quite a few pugs. We downed all the way to Ko'ragh, but in the end, he only dropped 1 piece of loot for 19. I don't know about any of you, but this was extremely infuriating after we had already had 6-7 wipes.

 

Regardless, we have decided that from now on, we will always run with Master Looter. At least it gives loot, so if does drop a piece that no one can use, it can be disenchanted for still good loot.

This may have been that some of your PuGs had already killed the boss on that difficulty, thus lowering the amount of drops in total.  

[Uranu5 0]

I have no love or remorse for Personal Loot.
There are more Pro's then Con's -with- Personal Loot on as I am surprised Storm did not put in.
Cons being that:

- Get the same loot from the boss over and over again, it is possible and sadly could be a waste. 

- Zero Loot is possible from -any- boss and that in itself is a detriment to the raid as already said

- Raid members will continue to 'whine and dine' over their RNG, luckily not another raid member but a discouraged raider becomes a quitting raider none the less. 

- No Trading Personal Loot as already said

With all those things in mind, and now the nerf to personal loot... It only belongs in Dungeons where everyone gets loot from the last boss -at least- (I have been in several runs to see most people get no loot from anyone but the last boss, which is frustrating but -WAY- better than no loot at all)

Also the PuG's that do personal loot I have seen with fresh lockouts, get no loot as well... The system is a win for only people who know they have good RNG with it, if you know you don't via dungeoning... Don't do it if you are in it for the gear.