Riesen

[DPS question] Unholy or Frost ?

Sign in to follow this  

12 posts in this topic

How in mind that this is a discussion post. I really want to see your oppinions.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I start with sharing my experience with playing a Death Knight. (don't worry, it won't be long).

 

My first Death Knight was during the end of wotlk. I used it mainly for PVP since my main character was a Restoration Shaman (PvE). I did however play some encounters in ICC and Cata as an Unholy. (Since it was the only talent spec I knew how to play).

During the end of MoP (SoO) I started to use it as my main character, still playing Unholy.

 

Also during MoP I joined a "progress guild". We managed to down all the bosses in Heroic before the change to Mythic. Back then, we had 3-4 Death Knights. 1 tank and 3 dps. I was the only one with the Unholy spec. With the right rotations, I managed to win against them all the time.

 

 

Let's start the Topic..

Since we're a progress guild, the leaders change players all the time. Simply because it's a new expansion and players are quite lazy when it comes to "gearing up". I find it rather easy to grind gear so I managed to keep my spot. We're not a hardcore guld, but we've done 8/8 Normal and 4/8 Heroic and I do decent DPS all the time. Only issue I see is the Single Target bosses but still manage to maintain a good DPS.

 

I can't say that I follow Noxxic DPS rankings, but a player in my guild mentioned that Frost DPS do a higher DPS than Unholy. I personally have a ilvl 652 and never seen a Frost DPS in any pug (or guild run) I've done.

Do you have any sort of experience how big the difference is?

 

Back in MoP players said that Frost 1h was OP as a Death Knight but I still managed to reck them with a good rotation. Is it still the same or do they have any advantage?

 

I rather not re-roll to a Frost Death Knight since I enjoy Unholy a lot!

But would it be worth it in this expansion?

Surely you should use the spec you enjoy playing but I dont want to be a "pain in the arse" for my guild. I know some friends saying that Frost is quite fun to play.

 

 

I guess the questions will be:

 

Which talent spec do you prefer ?

Which talent spec do you consider the best in WoD ?

Which talent spec will you use and why ?

 

 

And these questions are for DPS players. I'm terribly sorry if a similar thread already exist. [ In WoD ]

 

I personally enjoy Unholy a lot. I find it hard to burst with an Unholy Death Knight but maintaining my DPS is no issue at all.

I guess I made this thread because I've seen the Noxxic rankings my friend mentioned and wanted to know if it was legit or not.

I can also mention that I'm always top 3 in the DPS list in my guild and in pugs I'm always first! ( I change my talents for each fight).

The only boss I struggle with is Ko'ragh.

 

Hope you read it and understand my point. Anyway, let's start the discussion!

I really hope this community are understandable and can see my point..

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unholy seems to be the best for me so far at all ilvls (i'm up to 650) and the talents I use are blood tap and blood tap all other ones are depending on fight imo, also use plague bearer is almost all cases. I use them cause they're statistically highest and from the tests I've done it seems to be correct.

 

 

(sorry if this is a short reply I didn't have a bunch of time to write this)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First off, anything I post is purely a personal observation and is backed by very little(if any) real data:

 

Right now, due to my familiarity with the 2H Frost rotation I pull at least 10% more DPS (multiple 5+ minute parses on dummies, and a few heroic runs) than I do with Unholy. Unholy I find to be clunky and less intuitive than Frost. This is due to two factors: One is that I've been playing a Frost DK since the WoTLK beta, and the other is that 2H Frost is flagrantly easy to play. 

 

Currently both Simulationcraft and Noxxic(dubious, but it is secondary confirmation) show 2H Frost as either really close to or overshadowing UH on some fight types and this has been born out for myself in testing. Results will vary per player skill and styles. 

 

My take is thus: 2H Frost will win out for the majority of average skilled players at most gear levels due to the simplicity of the play style(It's a game of whack-a-mole at the most basic). UH will, in the hands of attentive players, come ahead in the majority of fights. 

 

I look forward to the DPS race with our guilds 2 Unholy DK's on the next raid night, just to see how it goes. 

 

-Fimbul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I prefer Frost, but unholy is better in most of the fights in high maul. I'm consistently doing 90th+ percentile frost dps now, and I'm typically in the 21-24k dps range. but that's as high as my frost dps is going to get until I start getting mythic gear. I haven't done unholy in the last week since I got a lot of gear, but 2 weeks and 10 ilvl ago I was doing 20k dps in unholy and was in the 40th percentile. even if I were to assume that with new gear my dps would be similar to my 21-24k frost dps, that would still only be about 75th percentile for unholy, meaning there's still a lot more room for improvement.

 

Frost is easier to play at a high level, but good unholy dps is equal to the best frost dps. and the best unholy dps are unbeatable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quick question Storm,

 

Does your comparison of the two specs take into count the buffs done to Frost in the week? This tweak should actually make your DPS, stat optimization not withstanding, quite close. 

 

  • Death Knight
    • Frost
      • Frost Strike's damage has increased by 7%.
      • Howling Blast's damage has increased by 7%.
      • Obliterate's damage has increased by 7%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ya, I switched back to frost this week after the buffs. I've been top dps as frost in almost every raid I've done this week, and I'm doing 21-24k single target, and even pulled a #26 rank on heroic Twins last night with 25.6k dps as frost. I'm putting up big numbers with frost, but the problem is I'm seeing logs of Unholy dk's doing even more.

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#class=DeathKnight&difficulty=4&dataset=90&aggregate=amount

 

That graph shows the 90th percentile for each DK spec, across all bosses in heroic highmaul. a 90th percentile Unholy DK is 2.5k dps higher than a 90th percentil Frost DK. You can adjust the settings at the top and look at specific fights, and change difficulties, and what percentile you want to look at also.

 

Unholy has 36k parses to Frosts 10k, so there could be some skewing based on the difference in sample sizes, but the way I'm reading the data, If I'm a decent 70-80th percentile unholy DK I should do about the same dps as I do as a 90th+ percentile frost DK's. And with unholy I'll still have room to improve and get better. with Frost I'm already pretty much at the top so my dps won't get any better until my gear gets better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see what you're on to here. There's going to be a really small skew on that, 10k parses is more than a large enough sample size, and any differences aren't statistically significant. 

 

From what I'm seeing, on single target fights the two specs are within ~900 DPS of each other at the 90th percentile, less so at 95 and 99. Honestly, that's a minuscule difference. I think for - I hate to say this - less skilled or less invested(ie. Invested in learning or playing at the top of their game) players, Frost 2H will be the better spec in most cases. 

 

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to bounce between UH and Frost in raids due to the huge disparity in DPS in AoE situations for me. I cannot seem to get UH to pull anywhere near the single target DPS of Frost.

 

Time for more practice it seems. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To tell yall the truth even for PvE UH is simplier for most fights.  Your opening Garg>Defile>Festering strikex2.  Then all you do is BB > SS > RS and use your DT, Defile, Garg, Reaper (sub 45%) on CD. The only real fight  you will want to go frost on is Butcher or Karg if you are not going up top.

Edited by k9k922

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My perspective is that 2H Frost is whack-a-mole. It is extremely easy. Hit the buttons that flash, use an unholy rune for blood plague, macro PoI with Oblit and you're pretty much playing at a decent level. 

 

With UH, in order to optimize, death coil needs to be used only when your pet isn't transformed, blood and UH runes need to be used appropriately, frost runes can be left orphaned, and it is really easy to back yourself into a corner where you have no runes and diseases are falling off. 

 

Even when I can get a solid 5 minute parse with everything going well, a high multistrike and mastery, and almost all 630 gear, I find UH is under performing for me by 10-12% on single targets. I blame this on me however, not the build, as I've played frost since the Wrath beta. 

 

I fully admit that at higher levels of skill UH pulls ahead. I'm just not practiced enough with UH, while I pulled 23k average in heroic Slagmines this afternoon after swapping to frost. 

 

TL;DR: The spec that's best will depend on individual play style preferences at this point. Discomfort or a lack of familiarity with a rotation can lose you a large % of DPS. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really appreciate all the posts!

 

I have to admit that I've already made a decision after managed to test some Highmaul (normal) bosses with my frost DK friend. And decided to stick with Unholy.

Like most of you mentioned, an Unholy player that know's what he's doing can be equal and sometimes even pull a higher DPS.

Which I did in this case.

 

The bloody annoying part though... is Kor'agh. I personally feel useless until the adds spawn. (or he's close to 45%)

But besides that, I manage to retain a good dps through the other fights. And even pull a higher dps than my friend. (we had simillar ilvl). 

 

Though, it was like a "friend-run". Which mean we had a good tank and healer. So I was able to go "All-in" without waiting for a good situation to e.g use defile (some cases the tank moves like an idiot).

 

Unfortunately I cannot really remember what dps me and him pulled. And it was never a huge difference between us.

I guess the point is that Unholy still got a chance in the "race" if you know how to handle them. 

Which was the main question of this thread. I really appreciate all your thoughts, and I'll stick with Unholy untill a see a huuuuge change.

 

 

Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love playing Unholy; I've played it in every exp except for MOP where Unholy was underperforming sad.png, so I elected to be the tank during that time.. If I can and raiding progression permits it I will stay in Unholy as the dps is comparable to frost and at times even better than frost. The one weakness that I’m finding with Unholy is its ability to lose track of your "rotation" as its more a priority system than anything, but if you start making the wrong moves your DPS will start to dirt dive and trying to recover is a long steady process up were dirt diving takes nothing to drop down 1k to 2k worth of dps. In my raiding guild there is two of us that raid, myself as Unholy and the other DK who is frost, we normally go back on forth on boss fights only being separated with less than 1k DPS outside of the multi trash mob fights where BB is just stronger than anything that 2H frost can deal with.

 

I'm also playing around with some of the less used talents, such as breath of Syndy on certain fights. For Butcher our normal kill time is 4m20s so I figured I can get at least 2 off and being a BE I can keep it running for a little longer. I ended up taking TOP dps on the fight with the Frost dk taking a close second, me being just over 21k and him right on my heals above 20.5k and honestly he was above me for most of the fight till I was able to pull of the second BOS. I also used it for ko'ragh and saved BOS for recharge phases but unfortunately I tunneled a little too hard at 10% I accidently stepped in a suppression field with fire rune active and boom dead DK.

 

BOS feels fun to use but it will wreck your "rotation" if you’re not properly setup for it. I tried only using it after my pet was DT and even then I can keep BOS running for a good portion of time since BE racial also on a 2min timer but I'll find myself after BOS is done my pet has already reverted back to normal leaving me with 0RP. So it takes much longer to get my bet back in DT. I honestly need to play with it more, I don't think it’s a good replacement of Defile for certain fights but it certainly gives you options.

Edited by Deathdoc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been using frost before and it worked pretty well for me, but after a couple years I thought it started to get dull, so I am gonna switch to unholy today!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Chumani
      Aka'magosh my raider friends! Chumani here from Corrupted Destiny guild (Horde) on Skywall/Drak'thul realms. We are currently recruiting for our core team for mythic raiding. We are 8/9 H ToS....  Consistant and Dependable members! (Who can handle cutting up and getting yelled at.... by a certain mage in our guild.... who cuts up too.... and won't admit it..... and puts down fake portals.... every week..... and people still take them.... to their death..... really......week..... after week.... to their death...... seriously)
      As always we are recruiting raiders and non raiders.
      *****GIRLS***** We have a large number of female gamers who do not have to worry about harrasment of any kind...we just will not tolerate this... and our group is like family. Come see for yourself!
      Tired of the ridiculous harassment from the opposite sex? You will be safe with us! Mature gamers who do not condone this behaviour!
      Our raid schedule is Tuesday/Thursday/Sunday 6:30pm to 9:00pm server time(pst)
      We use MUMBLE voice server, it is required and no exceptions!
      We currently have an "Alt" raid for alts and non-progression raiders on Mondays at the same time! MEGA amounts of fun there, alot of us use our mains to carry this raid and help gear these raiders up!
      Other guild events include: Herb Drives, Fishing Expo, Mog off! (Best transmog wins), Old Raids for Transmog gear & Mythic Plus runs. We do random guild events with prizes up to and including a FREE MONTH OF WOW! (Mog-Off is going on NOW!!)
      We have quite a bit of fun when we get together, as we always have over the years! Come join us and get corrupted (Disclaimer: Infections have been found to be the leading cause of corruption in many raiders) We've always been here and will continue to be here! Of course you will be required to sacrifice a goat or an alliance player once a week to the Horde gods..... You will also be required to laugh and have fun as well! We do have fun!
      So.......COME.......GET.......CORRUPTED!
      Chu@12466 - Deni#1743 - Cykopathyk#1366
      ***Newest video highlighting some of our girls!****
      (We are just huge nerds who see ourselves as badass warriors!... ok!)
      ******We also have one of our members who has published some 'how to' videos for certain in game mounts!!*** Keep eye out for Barcat, one of our casual members and professional mount hoarder and his youtube channel for these vids! Will post one in comment below*******
      http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=247413
    • By bowsersfury
      Hello, 
      I am concerned that I am severely under performing as a fury warrior. I can manage to parse typically in the 80s for almost every fight in heroic ToS with a few exceptions: Mistress, Host, Avatar. I'm currently 933 equipped and I'm not at all concerned about my stats... I know I should and could be parsing in the 90s. But I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. 
       
      My opener looks something like this: Charge, Pop Moonglaives trinket, Pop all CDS, Raging Blow, Oden's Fury, Rampage, then start normal priority rotation: Enraged RB>100 rage Rampage>RB>BT>FS. 
       
      I have recently discovered that I have been doing my execute phase entirely wrong. I just went and tried first two bosses of heroic ToS again. Parses went up slightly... Goroth: 83->89, Inquis:84->90 but still not where I need to be. 
      Another think I'd like to mention is that I try to prioritize Enraged RB @100 rage before hitting rampage. According to Kelade (one of top fury warriors in US), this is 100k dps difference. Although at times I find myself in an awkward situation where I'm at 100 rage with RB on CD and I literally have to wait a whole global to hit it... I'd like to know how to make that stop lol. 
       
      Last issue I'd like to bring up is this: Most of the time not all my CDs will line up perfectly together... BC, glaives, OF will be up but Avatar will be down. I'm slightly confused about when to use All/some of my cds... especially on fights like heroic KJ. Fights like Harj and Miss I'm confused about if I should hold all my cds for adds or blow them in the beginning along with prepot... I feel like prepot is a total waste without cds...
       
      Below you will find the link to my armory and logs. Please Help me. I need to be parsing much higher than I am. My guild is doing mythic and I don't want to be the one holding us back.  
       
      https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/stormrage/bòwser
      https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/26903184
    • By Nobbykinz
      Autumn Mist is a raiding & social guild looking for players like you.
      http://www.autumn-mist.net

      We are mostly searching to increase our DPS raid team so we can advance onto Mythic.
      We are a very active guild with events on most days:

      Wed: TOS Heroic
      Thurs: TOS Heroic  
      Fri: Mythic + night  
      Sat: Day of Alcohol
      Sun: TOS Mythic  
      Mon: TOS Normal  
      Tues: Transmog Tuesday  

      All starting at 8pm Server time other then the whole day events and posted in the calender.
      Feel free to apply via the website, or add me on bnet if you want a chat, Nobbykinz#2994 all questions welcome.
    • By Nerenahlil
      I had some great help with my Fury build from this forum, and have recently attempted to try Arms. 
       
      My guild did a full normal ToS run today, and i captured the logs. I seem to be parsing OK, but it felt clunky.
       
      Here are the logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/mfLjRTWXrkb4ZxQY/#boss=-2&difficulty=0&source=20
      Armory:  https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/nagrand/çleâvâgé
       
      Any pointers would be appreciated.
       
    • By Mezasu
      I've been playing a hunter for as long as I've been playing this game.  And for the first time in raiding, I feel like I am not doing my best and I cannot figure out why. I look at second by second rotations of top parsing hunters. In the past I was the one helping others out and writing small guides on forums...now I'm the one asking for help. 
      Here is a link to Goroth Mythic (my hunter's name is Mezäsu):
      https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/KjRvcMqbYGrp16Bt#fight=3
      I am very open to criticism and any help anyone has to offer.
      I tried going into the Discord to ask for help there but was not able to get a word in (as the helpers were busy with other people). Hoping I may have better luck here.