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Am i the only one?

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So i'v read a metric ****tonne of posts saying people aren't enjoying playing rogue at the moment for one reason or another, and just to clarify i think rogues as a whole do need a buff, the figures speak for themselves really


But, personally im pretty happy. just finished 5/7hc with my guild (ill post the logs once the RL has put them on WoL) and to be perfectly honest, my dps wasn't that bad, i'm 650 ilvl. Around the same as the majority of the other DPS in the group, and on most fights i was around 3rd on DPS and in the event of wipes i usually survived.


God i love my Vanish biggrin.png


I'm currently playing assassination, and have 2 630 ilvl daggers, pretty useless tbh, but even so my damage is competitive, I'll just have to wait until we get Ko'ragh down and pray that by some freak of RNG he drops 2 daggers.......


Is there anybody else out there who is pulling decent damage? or is it just me?



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I have fun playing my rogue, and it is possible to do decent damage as a rogue, but when you compare ilvl for ilvl and damage for damage, that is where we find complaint.  Should a 650 mage or shadow priest be able to compete dps wise with a 660 rogue?  Or should a poorly played 665 warrior do more damage than a highly skilled 665 rogue?


When we look at Combat instead, the situation is even more abysmal, single target the damage cannot keep up with the other rogue classes, let alone most other dps classes, it is only AOE or trash where Combat can really shine.   So Blizz buffed combat's AOE which was in a decent place and did nothing for single target.  Well, they also fixed Death from Above because it was not working as intended with Combo Points, so really they reduced the viability of that talent choice as well.


The subtlety buffs really only affected single target (buffing backstab and hemo), and only by about 2-3% at most, same with Assassination, although the buff to Venemous Wounds also buffed our strong 2-4 target cleave since it procs from rupture.  A better, more effective buff would have been to empower Envenom's effect on Mutilate and Dispatch a bit further to encourage better timing and energy pooling along with Envenom uptime.  This way your active playstyle would affect how much damage you are doing rather than merely keeping rupture uptime high.


Scaling is often brought up, but let's look at simcraft's results, Combat and Assassination sim fairly closely, even if real life proves differently.  Here's what we see from simulations:


iLvL Rogue Arcane Frost

630 19k 22k 20k

665 26k 32k 29k

695 37k 46k 43k


So we see that rogues do not really scale quite as well as mages.


Most are not saying rogues have to be the best, I know some are, but really most people just want to be competitive on the charts so that it doesn't require an extra 10 or more iLvls to have similar dps to an equally well-played alternate class.


I'm not perfect, so please feel free to correct me, always willing to learn.

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There's a few reasons that the 'pro-gression' Rogues were mostly (not all) playing Combat:


  1. More access to weapons - there's only 1 dagger drop in the ENTIRETY of Highmaul, and that's off the second last boss.
  2. Out of Assassination and Combat, which are the two specs not hindered by positioning requirements, Combat gives better performance
  3. The style of real progression raiding is extremely different compared to normal. Everything revolves around coordinated bursts of damage that are often on multiple targets - "clear these adds quick then continue to stay alive and take the boss slow and steady"


That last reason is also the reason that Rogues are still a top choice for many of the top guilds. Just using Method as an example, they ran:

  • 3 Rogues for Kargath, Twins, and Tectus
  • 2 Rogues for Brakenspore, Butcher, and Imperator
  • 1 Rogue for Ko'ragh, although the reasoning behind this was, I believe, a need for more magic damage to dump the shield faster

Rogues have very strong cooldowns, some good raid utility, and all specs have great on-demand burst. 


The biggest reason that a lot of Rogues aren't seeing very good results right now is that Itemization sucks HORRIBLY. The only dagger drop in the entire zone is Haste + Vers; the two worst stats for Sub and Assassination. Neither the fist weapon nor the axe have Haste for Combat, either; they're Crit + Vers and Mastery + Multi respectively. Those are just a couple examples, too - the rest of the gear is "meh" at best with very few exceptions. 


TL;DR - Rogues are really quite good at the Mythic progression level of raiding. Even below the top guilds, teams that are making early Mythic progress don't shy away from taking Rogues. There are other problems though, mostly related to gearing, which prevent Rogues from being where they could be - but none of those make Rogues bad


That's taken from the other thread on the State of Rogues. I expand on my thoughts below, but the first paragraph is kind of a TL;DR


I tell you right now, at 3/7 Mythic and doing relatively well, I'm satisfied with my damage. I'm not on top, but I perform well and I almost never die. That's the reliability and consistency that a Rogue provides.



I don't think that we're in a bad spot at all. Rogues still feel great and are fun to play, but there's an awkward point in the spectrum of "skill level" (for lack of a better term) where a lot of people only believe in what sims and meters say, and start to ignore what actually happens in a raid. Any class that isn't at the top right now is 'broken and needs work', while ignoring the fact that the difference in DPS might only be a few percent different. 


This difference is blown up out of proportion when certain classes are able to effectively cheese encounters by doing ridiculous amounts of damage on specific fights and not doing a whole lot on others, and therefor look amazingly overpowered. Charts barely mean anything at all, and real raid performance is a very different thing from fight to fight and even guild to guild or player to player. Look at the current top logs if you don't believe me - Boomkins and Enhance Shamans are at the top with 50.5 and 48.5k dps. That's absurd. 


What people who only look at positions on the charts don't see, is the difference in Min and Max dps. Boomkins bottom out at 15k, where Sub is sitting at 21.3k at the lowest. Granted, we only top out at 36.7k, but think about it - that's only 5.2k dps behind the next class that isn't abusing specific mechanics, and it's nearly 10k up on the minimum of some of the classes which are "better than them" 


What I'm trying to say is that Rogues aren't on top, nor on the bottom. We're solid, reliable dps who can avoid like 90% of damage or boss effects. We can play roles in strategies, make up for somebody else's mistakes by taking over their job, or anything else that you and your raid leader can come up with.

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I appreciate reading the opinions of other sensible minded rogues tbh. theres only 1 other rogue in my guild atm, and hes not a raider so i have no point of comparison. i miss raiding with other rogues, it was always fun.


I probably should try combat out, my mind isnt made up yet. i think it will be when/if a suitable weapon drops in a raid. For the time being though, 

i do see you point about the scaling thing too, and i agree something needs to be done about that. And while i would love to obliterate every fight and be top of all the meters. I think honestly that would make it kinda boring, All i say to people who dont like rogues is, dont play one then 

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A silly idea: let's make a Rogue-only raid! Put some DKs to tank, few healers and full Rogue DPS lol


I'd love to see that. ahahaha


"Smoke Bomb now!"

-15 Smoke Bombs on screen-

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Yknow, I might actually like to try that.  Everyone would have to download a threat meter, and when Evasion wears off pop Vanish and let the next guy take over. Fuck the DKs

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