Damien

New Class Guide Format: Feedback Needed!

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We've recently recruited Furty from the guild Serenity to write a number of our class guides. The first step was to come up with an improved class guide format that would be more fitted to Furty's vast knowledge of the game at the highest level of content. The result of this work was a revamp of our Destruction Warlock guide to showcase the new format and we would like to hear your thoughts on it.

The biggest changes are the addition of a boss by boss walkthrough for Hellfire Citadel and a complete rewrite of the rotation and gearing page.

  • The boss by boss walkthrough includes summed-up strategies, tips and tricks, trinket and talent usage for each boss of Hellfire Citadel.
  • The rotation page is now geared specifically towards Hellfire Citadel progression. With Legion, expect that section to cater to both players who are raiding Mythic content and the more casual crowd. It's just that with Hellfire Citadel having been released almost a year ago, the current focus for most PvE players these days is to finish clearing.
  • The gearing page now features a proper BiS list as well as a lengthy trinket discussion, followed by a simulation chart that we've been working on with Azortharion (our Hunter writer).

The goal is to eventually have all class guides written by players of Furty's caliber (he himself will write Mage, Rogue, Shaman, and Warlock guides). We wanted to start small with just one writer and expand the team after the launch of Legion (delegating class guides is a very new thing for us and we want to make sure we get it right). That said, we've already recruited Azortharion to write our Hunter guides in Legion, using the same format. He's been reviewing our Hunter guides for several years now and since he's also writing his own guides (and has been very successful at it), we felt it would make more sense if he just took over the Hunter guides.

So, any thoughts on the new class guide format?

We're recruiting top players to write our class guides and we're interested in your feedback on the new format we'll be using!

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I have always love your guides, but sometimes it felt outdated, the format was (in some cases) not ideal and some missing info (boss by boss guide). This is what it should look like! Good job! Really nice

Edited by Ardkin
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Just one comment here: The boss by boss walkthrough would imo be even more useful if it had a better overview per boss. All the info given is excellent but when I'm about to venture into my first few Hellfires as a DPS Warlock I will want to quickly check this guide for pointers. Having the strategies as one big block of text everytime makes it harder to quickly find what you need/forgot. For me it would be better if either spaced out more or listed.
 Example:

Quote

5. Kilrogg Deadeye

This encounter can change significantly depending on whether you are sent into the visions phase or not. While you are upstairs, you will want to pay attention to the add spawn and Heartseeker timers to take advantage of early Havoc IconHavoc. Always keep an Ember in reserve when adds are active for execute Ember return. Place a Demonic Gateway IconDemonic Gateway from the ranged pile to the Heartseeker drop location. Leave your Demonic Circle: Summon IconDemonic Circle: Summon in the ranged pile so you can immediately portal back if the Heartseeker targets you. If you are sent downstairs into visions you will want to make sure you are high on Embers as you are sent down. For the first set of three imps, you will want to cast Havoc IconHavoc then Chaos Bolt IconChaos Bolt, then a second Chaos Bolt IconChaos Bolt, and finally a Shadowburn IconShadowburn to finish off an imp and get your Embers back. Once the adds start flowing out en masse, switch over to Fire and Brimstone IconFire and Brimstone, making sure to clean up low adds with Shadowburn IconShadowburn to keep your Embers high. You will want to finish your visions phase with a few Embers ready to go. Fragment of the Dark Star IconFragment of the Dark Star is extremely potent on this fight if you are able to get your full visions buff before the boss dies, as you will essentially have a permanent 20% bonus to chaos bolt damage during this time. This scales up with the buff much better than other trinkets that provide passive intellect or a spell damage proc (For example, Prophecy of Fear IconProphecy of Fear).

vs

Quote

5. Kilrogg Deadeye

This encounter can change significantly depending on whether you are sent into the visions phase or not.

While you are upstairs:
 - You will want to pay attention to the add spawn and Heartseeker timers to take advantage of early Havoc IconHavoc.
 - Always keep an Ember in reserve when adds are active for execute Ember return.
 - Place a Demonic Gateway IconDemonic Gateway from the ranged pile to the Heartseeker drop location. Leave your Demonic Circle: Summon IconDemonic Circle: Summon in the ranged pile so you can immediately portal back if the Heartseeker targets you.

If you are sent downstairs into visions:
 - You will want to make sure you are high on Embers as you are sent down.
 - For the first set of three imps, you will want to cast Havoc IconHavoc then Chaos Bolt IconChaos Bolt, then a second Chaos Bolt IconChaos Bolt, and finally a Shadowburn IconShadowburn to finish off an imp and get your Embers back.
 - Once the adds start flowing out en masse, switch over to Fire and Brimstone IconFire and Brimstone, making sure to clean up low adds with Shadowburn IconShadowburn to keep your Embers high.
 - You will want to finish your visions phase with a few Embers ready to go. Fragment of the Dark Star IconFragment of the Dark Star is extremely potent on this fight if you are able to get your full visions buff before the boss dies, as you will essentially have a permanent 20% bonus to chaos bolt damage during this time. This scales up with the buff much better than other trinkets that provide passive intellect or a spell damage proc (For example, Prophecy of Fear IconProphecy of Fear).

 

Other than that though I think it looks great; very informative and detailed guide. Looking forward to a mage one!

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I have just signed in icy-veins to reply to this thread. I'm a casual Wow player that only do some LFR runs because I can't assign enough time to play more seriously at higher levels. I don't know if this is the type of the majority of icy-veins' visitors. Although I occasionally do raids via LFR, I'm always want to do better damage trying to understand better my class.  

I tried to follow the new warlock guide and became overwhelmed mostly in the rotation section. There is too much information to digest and abandoned soon. For me it will be easier another approach: start with a basic and simple rotation and then, progressively introduce more concepts in it, with some auras code to track things for example.... This will allow to avoid the step learning curve you offer.

Perhaps I'm a minority here, but I needed to say it.

Have fun!

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Stratos said:

I have just signed in icy-veins to reply to this thread. I'm a casual Wow player that only do some LFR runs because I can't assign enough time to play more seriously at higher levels. I don't know if this is the type of the majority of icy-veins' visitors. Although I occasionally do raids via LFR, I'm always want to do better damage trying to understand better my class.  

I tried to follow the new warlock guide and became overwhelmed mostly in the rotation section. There is too much information to digest and abandoned soon. For me it will be easier another approach: start with a basic and simple rotation and then, progressively introduce more concepts in it, with some auras code to track things for example.... This will allow to avoid the step learning curve you offer.

Perhaps I'm a minority here, but I needed to say it.

Have fun!

Regardless of whether or not you are a minority, you are still part of the IV community :) I'm sure we can see what can be done to deal with this. Thanks for the feedback!

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Reading it as someone currently on M progression this read wonderfully to me. While Destro Lock is not the most applicable to me, the style I think really worked. Having the rotation change based on what boxes are ticked is a much more efficient way to learn a new class with the intent of raiding with it, and an in-depth discussion of trinkets is I think a vital aspect of a good gearing site. I could see it being a bit overwhelming for a new player, so maybe having a box indicating the very basic rotation might be nice if you're looking to offer that! I do think that keeping the advice for fights limited to just what that class can focus on is the right approach. My favorite Rshaman site doesn't lay out everything the boss does, just what to focus on specific to your class to maximize performance. No need to write out the boss guide for every class, just the little tips for specific mechanics. But that's just my preference!

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16 hours ago, Stratos said:

I have just signed in icy-veins to reply to this thread. I'm a casual Wow player that only do some LFR runs because I can't assign enough time to play more seriously at higher levels. I don't know if this is the type of the majority of icy-veins' visitors. Although I occasionally do raids via LFR, I'm always want to do better damage trying to understand better my class.  

I tried to follow the new warlock guide and became overwhelmed mostly in the rotation section. There is too much information to digest and abandoned soon. For me it will be easier another approach: start with a basic and simple rotation and then, progressively introduce more concepts in it, with some auras code to track things for example.... This will allow to avoid the step learning curve you offer.

Perhaps I'm a minority here, but I needed to say it.

Have fun!

 

 

We'll include something more basic. Maybe not right now, but for Legion, there definitely will be a basic rotation :)

7 hours ago, Rag said:

Reading it as someone currently on M progression this read wonderfully to me. While Destro Lock is not the most applicable to me, the style I think really worked. Having the rotation change based on what boxes are ticked is a much more efficient way to learn a new class with the intent of raiding with it, and an in-depth discussion of trinkets is I think a vital aspect of a good gearing site. I could see it being a bit overwhelming for a new player, so maybe having a box indicating the very basic rotation might be nice if you're looking to offer that! I do think that keeping the advice for fights limited to just what that class can focus on is the right approach. My favorite Rshaman site doesn't lay out everything the boss does, just what to focus on specific to your class to maximize performance. No need to write out the boss guide for every class, just the little tips for specific mechanics. But that's just my preference!

Thanks for the feedback :) Are you saying that the boss by boss stuff is too detailed?

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On 5/29/2016 at 5:27 AM, Damien said:

Thanks for the feedback :) Are you saying that the boss by boss stuff is too detailed?

Oh no I think it's perfect, the website I'm referring to mainly focuses on mythic rshaman guides so they're even less general, but I think that this is a great balance. Specific spell usage to maximize dps or utility for particular aspects, rather than a full layout of the fight and what to do during every second of it. (Exaggeration of course) I think that it's good for people to look up the fights themselves and understand all of the mechanics, or at least any they can expect to handle, and then have a more specific guide to get at some of the fine tuning; the boss by boss section does a good job of the latter! I think as of right now that aspect is split between specific class sites, you guys message boards, and while I'm a touch on the obsessive side so I don't mind sifting through everything, having that class specific aid for each fight is what can really strengthen a raider's usefulness on a team especially into higher end content. Also you start to notice some of how to really leverage your class and then when things start to go ends up you understand more and more of how you can stay alive, kite, burn a particularly nasty add,or buy the raid those few extra crucial seconds!

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41 minutes ago, Rag said:

Oh no I think it's perfect, the website I'm referring to mainly focuses on mythic rshaman guides so they're even less general, but I think that this is a great balance. Specific spell usage to maximize dps or utility for particular aspects, rather than a full layout of the fight and what to do during every second of it. (Exaggeration of course) I think that it's good for people to look up the fights themselves and understand all of the mechanics, or at least any they can expect to handle, and then have a more specific guide to get at some of the fine tuning; the boss by boss section does a good job of the latter! I think as of right now that aspect is split between specific class sites, you guys message boards, and while I'm a touch on the obsessive side so I don't mind sifting through everything, having that class specific aid for each fight is what can really strengthen a raider's usefulness on a team especially into higher end content. Also you start to notice some of how to really leverage your class and then when things start to go ends up you understand more and more of how you can stay alive, kite, burn a particularly nasty add,or buy the raid those few extra crucial seconds!

Cool, thanks! We also plan on adding a TLDR section at the beginning of the guide, much like we do with Heroes of the Storm guides.

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just glancing at the guide I felt a bit overwhelmed until I looked a bit closer. I have to say I love the whole check box thing that can lead to progressive rotations. Have item X rotation changes this way, have X adds rotation changes this way. Very nice that you can check box your respective situation simply because gear can have such a strong impact on rotation.

That being said I feel that should also be the case for the talents page. Many times a talent is only viable with say a certain stat percentage or certain trinket or set bonus.

Also going into legion at least at the beginning, it almost seems there would need to be an overwhelming about of check boxes. With the various legendary items (we only get one at first) there will be a ton of choices. Now of course we will eventually min max out the best one. However, with the randomness of the drops its very likely RNGesus will be displeased with many of us and we'll be stuck with legendary X for maybe even the entire xpac. 

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What I always find missing, is stat weights.

ANY site out there can assemble a chain of, say, Mastery>=Haste>Crit>>>Versa and so on, but when it comes to actually using this sort of info, you NEED some values, Ideally taken down to primary stat worth 1. Then, If I see Mastery at 0,5 Haste at 0.4 and Crit at 0.2, I can make real decisions, because swapping items around isn't usually simple.

To give an idea, say, I swap item, I get +12 main stat, +12 haste +12 Crit, +12 Versatility, but loose 50 Mastery. Is it worth it, or not?

I know this will change from scenario to scenario, but the same is true for general stat priority, so whatever - as long as it's close, it's usable.

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On 6/1/2016 at 11:00 AM, JanInCognito said:

What I always find missing, is stat weights.

ANY site out there can assemble a chain of, say, Mastery>=Haste>Crit>>>Versa and so on, but when it comes to actually using this sort of info, you NEED some values, Ideally taken down to primary stat worth 1. Then, If I see Mastery at 0,5 Haste at 0.4 and Crit at 0.2, I can make real decisions, because swapping items around isn't usually simple.

To give an idea, say, I swap item, I get +12 main stat, +12 haste +12 Crit, +12 Versatility, but loose 50 Mastery. Is it worth it, or not?

I know this will change from scenario to scenario, but the same is true for general stat priority, so whatever - as long as it's close, it's usable.

This information is all included in the updated guide, along with an equation of how to accurately weigh upgrades relative to each other.

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I appreciate your guides particularly when helping new players or checking on something for a class I don't play.  It would be helpful if you specify for what gear levels you are referring in the guide for picking talents and such.  Sometimes (at least as heals) you pick different talents at lower or highest levels (due to trinkets, tier, spirit,...).  Including all these things would be lengthy at best so just making folks aware that rotation/talents/... may vary above or below xxx-xxx would be helpful.

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Hi, 

I use your guides for all of my WoW toons. 

I recently started a Pandaren Monk for a change of pace and I had a look at the levelling guides you guys have for some research  

I'd never used your levelling guides before and I found the Monk levelling guide to be a great resource as it guides you through levelling from Lvl 1-100 and is very helpful. 

Out of curiosity, I went to check out the other levelling guides and I found out they only cover Lvls 85-100, but the monk one is the only one that covers Lvls 1-100.. Why is this? 

I guess my suggestion for your new format of class guides would be to add in Levelling guides covering Lvls 1-100 for every class. I believe this would be an invaluable resource for new players and for veteran players rolling a new class that they've never used before! 

Anyways, keep up the good work! You're invaluable! :) 

Thanks, 

Kallidus :) 

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