Survival Hunter 7.3

[Guest Cookiedoughjunkie]

I'm not sure your name holds much weight here honestly.

No offense, but you're saying a lot of things that are so far not true.

How is mastery BETTER Than haste? You get more haste, it affects more of your damages AND it actually affects your mongoose regeneration a good deal without much effort.

How is their AoE bad? Have you seen their AoE in legion? I'm going to say no, you have not. They have some of the bigger bursts on AoE, dragonfire grenade is strong, both dragonfire and explosive trap can be preset for AoE and then used with AoE (dragonfire, you attach it to boss, when AoE comes up, it'll still tick damage on them. Explosive, you set the trap away from boss, and let the AoE adds proc it when THEY spawn, and if you do it right can get two rolling)

A full 6 stack of mongoose fury on Fury of the Eagle is ridiculously powerful, not 'meh'. It's probably the highest burst damage. The only difference is trying to time keeping 6 stacks of mongoose fury when you use it. Which isn't that hard if you're this 'elite player' the posts made it seem you were to have you looking at survival hunter. It's also great that using Fury of the eagle ALSO extends the Mongoose fury buff so you can use it with 0 mongoose bite charges and hope during those extra 3 seconds you gain more charges, which I've seen a lot of 2 charges and sometimes 3 during fury of the eagle.

Carve's artifact buff actually makes it a good AoE filler and just AoE on it's own right. 10% extra damage PER enemy? while we may not see a lot of large AoE fights now, that doesn't mean there won't be later.

so, you want to do the biggest AoE and you know AoE adds are coming?

1) Throw down explosive trap just outside boss' hitbox where the AoE adds will come and pop it. Of course, set this down a few seconds before the adds come out.

2) start using mongoose bite to get 3-6 stacks. you may want to use a few before throwing down explosive trap even.

3) the second before adds come out, throw dragonfire grenade.

4) with 3-6 mongoose bites, the SECOND AoE comes out, use a 300% stronger Fury of the Eagle.

boom, you just won AoE.

If somehow there are AoE mobs still up after, carve.

[Azortharion 60]

I am not sure who brought up my "name" in the first place, but I am pretty sure it wasn't me.

I think you need to understand that just because you yell the loudest, it doesn't mean you're right.

 

Problems with your post (as in, things that are simply wrong) include:

1) You cannot "place" Explosive Trap as accurately as your post implies If you have no target, it will be thrown down a bit in front of you. This is not something you "just" drop outside the hitbox of the boss exactly where you want it, it also presumes absolutely no boss movement which is not a realistic scenario for any Emerald Nightmare or Mythic+ fight that I can think of.

2) Fury of the Eagle extends Mongoose Fury by its cast time so that you always get overlap with however many Fury stacks you had before pressing the button. Thus I am not sure exactly what you hope to achieve by casting it at 0 charges of MB, which is something you'd do anyway.

 

" while we may not see a lot of large AoE fights now, that doesn't mean there won't be later. "

Well, we know what the fights in Nighthold are about. Or maybe you didn't, but there are not actually meaningful heavy AoE fights in Nighthold. 

The main thing you'd want AoE for at endgame is Mythic+ content where consistency is Beast Mastery's strength, and the reason that it is so powerful for them. Survival's AoE is frankly terrible when Fury of the Eagle is not available to it,  and even when it is available to it, it's not something you can use immediately since it requires serious buildup to be effective. By the time you have built it up to 6 stacks, there's a good chance that half the mobs in that AoE pack you are fighting will be dead. Survival will always lose in a Mythic+ scenario when we're just talking about damage because it is inconsistent, and because the bulk of its AoE potential is not frontloaded and requires buildup. Basically the complete opposite of Beast Mastery and Marksmanship.

I think these AoE sim timelines are pretty telling. Beast Mastery is very consistent throughout, with peaks whenever Aspect of the Wild is used especially.

Then there is Survival, obviously the peaks are 6-stack Fury of the Eagles, something which you will

1) Not be able to perform all the time in the first place (not enough time to build stacks)

2) Even if you are able to build them, there is a very, very good chance that the lower-health mobs in the Mythic+ pack you're fighting (or raid AoE adds) are dead

Even with perfect Fury of the Eagles all throughout a 4-target AoE fight, Survival still falls short of Beast Mastery.

 

I do not care much for simulations when talking about Mythic+ content and ever-changing raid environments either, but when Beast Mastery wins against Survival even when Survival has everything going for it (perfect Fury of the Eagles throughout, more than anything, and of course no additional targets dying) I think that's quite telling.

Mastery is better than Haste because the value of additional Mongoose Bites is higher than the value of more autoattacks/shorter globals/etc. This may shift when I redo the stat weights for the content that's coming up.

Oh, and by the way, Dragonsfire Grenade can't be preset for AoE either. When you have the audacity to be so arrogant , you better keep your facts neat and tidy, being wrong about how basic mechanics does not reflect very well on you when you are the one asking me if I have "seen their AoE in Legion".

[Azortharion 60]

20 hours ago, Guest VeritasLuxMea said:

My experiences in Mythic dungeons up to this point seem to run contrary to this notion. Fury of the Eagle is available for just about every large trash pull, as are dragonsfire grenade and explosive trap. Though, I suppose this could ring false in Mythic+, where mobs have significantly more health, and there is virtually no downtime between pulls.  

I understand that in a Mythic raiding environment where there is already fierce competition for limited melee spots, Survival is not really an option for most Hunters. However, from what I have experienced so far on live, Survival excels in many areas (including burst AoE) and is a perfectly viable, if not above average spec for both dungeons and raids.  

I would also add that missing from your guide is any information regarding the current implementation of Hunting Companion, namely the fact that Thunderstomp has a chance to proc Hunting Companion once for each target hit, and that Pet Class specific abilities such as the Carrion Bird's Bloody Screech have a chance to proc Hunting Companion as well. Thus making Tenacity Spec Carrion Birds superior pet choices for Survival.

Mythic+ dungeons favour consistency, AoE consistency is Survival's biggest weakness and that was the gist of my post. Even Marksmanship is more consistent. At least Survival is not random. The other reasoning for Survival's AoE being listed as a con is above. I will concede that to say it is "weak" is probably bordering on hyperbolic.

I'll bring up the Tenacity pets.

[Guest VeritasLuxMea]

11 minutes ago, Azortharion said:

Mythic+ dungeons favour consistency, AoE consistency is Survival's biggest weakness and that was the gist of my post. Even Marksmanship is more consistent. At least Survival is not random. The other reasoning for Survival's AoE being listed as a con is above. I will concede that to say it is "weak" is probably bordering on hyperbolic.

I'll bring up the Tenacity pets.

AoE consistency is absolutely and issue for Survival, but I find that the added challenge of timing the 6 Stack Fury of the Eagles (so as not to reach peak stacks only to find most/all of the adds already dead) to be value added to the spec. Spamming Barrage/Sidewinders/Marked shot is consistent, but doesn't allow much room for interesting or satisfying gameplay. I realize this is a non factor when considering viability in Mythic raids, but should certainly count as a point in Survival's favor when considering which class/spec to play for an entire expansion. Also a big thank you for your time and attention on these guides. We are all extremely lucky to have someone so dedicated as a resource.

[Azortharion 60]

Well, there is only so much you can do on a given pull. Almost regardless of what you do, you will need ~8 seconds to generate 6 stacks, and you will need ~4 more seconds to get the most out of that Eagle, and no target may die in this 12 second window. This is ignoring the globals you will want to spend on Dragonsfire and Explosive Trap too. Besides, fun is subjective, it's hard to really say that being fun to play is a "pro".

If I could choose the best spec, but it'd also be Survival, but the facts don't support my personal opinion. Earlier in beta, Dragonsfire Grenade used to do full damage to secondary targets which allowed you to do tens of millions of damage in a single global. Now that was fun (and absolutely broken), but I digress.

[Guest Cookiedoughjunkie]

I have the audacity to be arrogant BECAUSE you post so absolutely yet it can and definitely is arguable.

You complained about it being in mythic +. Well, sorry, I go into as a 705 against others who are 735-740 (fury warrior, arcane mage) on my surv and still out AoE them.

You said you can't accurately throw Explosive trap. Your geometry might be lacking if that is 'your truth' of the matter. It's not.

If you're simming at the not optimal rotation for it as you've described you're doing, then I'm not sure to believe you. If you're also rating consistency and ease of use rather than a complex spec that has the potential to do more if timed well, then say so and not 'it's meh at best' when it's not.

If you're still talking about dungeon and mythic content, you know there's probably a little downtime between pulls to restack up to 3 mongoose or get back that little bit on Fury of the eagle, so I hope your sims weren't on test dummy when you're trying to describe mythic content. Not to mention, layout depending, you can start your build up on the single mob that comes right before the AoE pulls if they're chain pulling, which does happen in these dungeons.

" Fury of the Eagle extends Mongoose Fury by its cast time so that you always get overlap with however many Fury stacks you had before pressing the button. Thus I am not sure exactly what you hope to achieve by casting it at 0 charges of MB, which is something you'd do anyway. "  No duh. What was the point of this, you thought you were disproving a point? You do realize that only reinforced what I said. Because while you're doing FURY OF THE EAGLE, your mongoose bites can come back either via your own recharge time or PET ATTACKS. Therefore, you have 0 mongoose bites? you can extend fury of the mongoose with Fury of the Eagle and hope to finish up with more mongoose bites since you should be getting one or two charges doing fury of the mongoose.


" Mastery is better than Haste because the value of additional Mongoose Bites is higher than the value of more autoattacks/shorter globals/etc. This may shift when I redo the stat weights for the content that's coming up. " Oh goodie, it's like you don't know that haste gives you MORE mongoose bites than mastery does. It's like you don't know that reduction to mongoose recharge time, faster pet auto (to proc what little mastery you start with or that gear forces on you). I'm not even in optimal gear and you know what I've found? It's ridiculously hard for me to use all my abilities in the rotation and NOT keep getting mongoose bites which only makes me think in higher IL with higher potential ratings for haste and mastery that all it's going to do is give us too much, forcing us completely out of mastery and onto stats that hit diminishing returns.

And dragonsfire can't be preset? You do know that it's a DEBUFF onto the main target, it does AoE damage per second to anything around your target, which means, yes, even targets that come within range of your main target that weren't hit by the initial bomb toss.

[Guest Cookiedoughjunkie]

It still does full damage to adds if they are around the initial target thrown at for it's full duration... It's wording is different to make sure you know that if enemies move away, they no longer take that damage, or enemies move in after it's set, they'll start taking that damage. This also prevents it from massively slowing a bunch of enemies and reducing it to just slowing one enemy.

4 hours ago, Azortharion said:

 Earlier in beta, Dragonsfire Grenade used to do full damage to secondary targets which allowed you to do tens of millions of damage in a single global. Now that was fun (and absolutely broken), but I digress.

 

 

[GalloViking 2]

Even if Beastmastery is better for raiding environments, I will keep playing Survival. Why? Because BM is annoying to play, and Survival is a lot of fun.

This is why I switched from BM to Survival in the first place, during pre-Legion. Of course in raids I'll just switch to BM but I can't like this annoying spec anymore.

 

Edit:

I got one question tho. Is the Touch of the Void that strong? Should I equip one and use it at all times times despite if very low ilvl?

Edited September 7, 2016 by GalloViking

[Orthios 271]

1 hour ago, Guest Cookiedoughjunkie said:

It still does full damage to adds if they are around the initial target thrown at for it's full duration... It's wording is different to make sure you know that if enemies move away, they no longer take that damage, or enemies move in after it's set, they'll start taking that damage. This also prevents it from massively slowing a bunch of enemies and reducing it to just slowing one enemy.

 

No, how Dragonsfire Grenade USED to work is as such:

When you use DFG, all targets that were in the range of the initial splash of DFG were affected by the DoT, which, let me remind you, was a Fire Nova every 1s for 8s, with no target cap.  AKA, the damage went up exponentially with the number of targets.

Now, only 1 target gets affected by the DoT portion (the target you used DFG on), which scales linearly with number of targets. 

12 minutes ago, GalloViking said:

I got one question tho. Is the Touch of the Void that strong? Should I equip one and use it at all times times despite if very low ilvl?

Touch of the Void got nerfed recently, and the on-use effect no longer scales past level 100.

[Guest Cookiedoughjunkie]

Then it still does full damage to secondary targets. That's the wording used.

That's multiplying overlapping splash damage.

And shame it still doesn't work like that.

[GalloViking 2]

10 hours ago, Orthios said:

Touch of the Void got nerfed recently, and the on-use effect no longer scales past level 100.

I see, thank you.

[thaplumberry 0]

Loving the guide, just a quick question.

isn't ferocity better as a pet talent because of it's overall increased damage opposed to tenacity? could you please show the two matching up against each other to see if thunderstomp really is better?

[Azortharion 60]

Good question, simple math:

 

Spiked Collar (the Ferocity damage bonus) is a 0.68% total damage increase.

One Mongoose Bite contributes about 0.24% damage on a 6 minute fight, on average.

So you need 3-4 extra Mongoose Bites in 6 minutes from Tenacity to make it work.

This is ignoring the fact that Thunderstomp deals a bit of damage, and that Charge is a small damage increase in itself.

Without Tenacity, you can expect a proc every ~8 Basic Attacks, so a Hunting Companion proc every 24 seconds (15 procs out of 117 Basic Attacks on a 6 minute fight).

Thunderstomp has a 10 second cooldown.

Thunderstomp can thus be used ~36 times in a 6 minute fight.

If we take the ~12.8% proc rate (15 procs out of 117 trials) and apply it to our 36 Thunderstomps, we'll get ~4.6 procs on average.

4.6 > "3-4".

Therefore, the few extra Mongooses that Thunderstomp will give you on a single-target outweighs the damage loss from not having Spiked Collar. On 2 targets, simply double the proc chance of Thunderstomp.

This is with fairly low (1500) Mastery.

[Guest Myrorr-Xavius EU]

I'm currently 845 ilvl and finding Murder or Crows to out damage Snake Hunter time and time again.  

I line it up with Aspect and Fury of the Eagle for maximum benefit but I find the longer cooldown [than crows] adds up to less damage i've alternatively tried lining it up with Aspect every time but this was worse, as expected. 

I think the fact that you will gain a minumum of 4 stacks of Mongoose Bite before it drops off and very often 5 and not uncommonly 6 from pet procs means that having Crows the target whilst at 4-6 stacks + Fury and Aspect of the eagle is more beneficial than 3 hits once per 1min30sec. This does add an extra level of difficulty as you have to line up DoTs to ensure theyre all still up and normally only have a 1second widndow between applying your last Mongoose bite before hitting Fury.

From personal dummy testing without Hero/Lust

a Murder of Crows - 212k DPS over 100million damage. Peak DPS 290k. Poor Execution of rotation at times and hit 1 Stackless FotE         MB: 13.2%                                                                                                                                                                                                                         aMoC: 6%                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  FotE 5.7%                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        DPS @ 25mil damage = 220k

Snake Hunter - 198k DPS over 100million damaged. Peak DPS 315k. Good Execution - 1 wasted mongoose bite cd.                                          MB: 16.5%                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  FotE: 8.9%                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      DPS @ 25mil damage = 200k

It should also be noted that the CD of aMoC resets if a target dies, for bosses with adds this allows you to do 2casts within 15 seconds, thus allowing up to 1.2mil DoT damage in 30 seconds (although more likely around 800k) 6 stacks of MB vs 4 for FotE allows an extra 400k per target. [in my gear level]

My Conclusion. 

Crows for Single Target. Snake Hunter for AoE and 2+ targets

[Valks 2,373]

On 9/20/2016 at 9:49 PM, Guest Myrorr-Xavius EU said:

My Conclusion. 

Hey there,

Just wanted to say, firstly, I'm not well versed enough to comment on your feedback, sorry! Given that raids have just opened, Azor is probably inundated with responsibilities there, so you might get a response much later than normal. We're not ignoring you and just wanted to make sure you knew that!

[Guest tanoy]

can some one tell me why twisting wind is one of the bis trinkets for survival isn't it a ranged trinket? the tool tip say " Equip: Your ranged attacks and spells have a chance to create a Tormenting Cyclone at the target's location for 10 sec that deals 8507 Shadow damage every sec. "

[Orthios 271]

5 minutes ago, Guest tanoy said:

can some one tell me why twisting wind is one of the bis trinkets for survival isn't it a ranged trinket? the tool tip say " Equip: Your ranged attacks and spells have a chance to create a Tormenting Cyclone at the target's location for 10 sec that deals 8507 Shadow damage every sec.

A lot (if not all) trinkets got their melee or ranged specifications removed, so melee spells/abilities will proc trinkets such as that and ranged spells will proc trinkets whose tooltips specify melee attacks.  Tooltips take a full patch to update (can't be done in a hotfix), so they will continue to have the misleading tooltips until 7.1.

[Valks 2,373]

Generic comment being mass posted over the comments threads guys.

We are aware of the changes and our writers are working hard to update the guides to suit what has changed. Currently, there is a lot of work still to be done and it's unlikely that every guide will be up-to-date immediately. Expect a flood of updates over the coming days that will answer all of your questions about what is now best after X change, in time for the reset next week.

Thanks for your understanding and patience.

[Guest Ilovemuffins]

With Flanking Strike buffed by 67%, does this affect the rotation at all? should we be finding time for it or just keeping it at filler?

[Ilovemuffins 0]

At what group size does Serpent Sting win out over DFG? Using DFG, I've had pretty lack luster results in Mythic+ due to the fact that the target often dies before the DoT is finished, or it is not off of cooldown for the current pull, or sometimes mobs just aren't close enough (user error). Even in Normal EN, most adds for bosses weren't getting any DFG damage. Single target, obviously DFG wins out. That's basic math. But no fight is patchwerk except maybe Ursoc and a little bit of Xavius. And obviously Mythic+ is as much about quick trash pulls as it is bursting the bosses down. With Serpent sting, you can apply it to every trash pull, every add, pretty much any time you want for the cost of a carve/raptor. 

All that to say, my gut tells me that Serpent Sting is the obvious choice and it's pretty easy to maintain. Especially when I've been reading that we value the consistency of BM versus the burst of Survival. What's the reasoning for DFG over Serpent sting in a Raid/Mythic+ environment? If Surv's weakness truly is AoE, why not do the best we can to mitigate that weakness?
 

P.S. I'm glad mastery is apparently better than haste. Mastery is on fucking EVERYTHING and it was maddening getting 820 blues that were "better" than 840s

P.P.S. I'm sure you're aware, but if you're not, your Pawn string still has mastery below haste (considerably). Any ETA on that? If no numbers, would it be folly to switch the values of haste and mastery in the mean time?

Edited September 28, 2016 by Ilovemuffins
additional info

[Valks 2,373]

On 9/27/2016 at 7:44 PM, Guest Ilovemuffins said:

With Flanking Strike buffed by 67%, does this affect the rotation at all? should we be finding time for it or just keeping it at filler?

On 9/27/2016 at 8:03 PM, Ilovemuffins said:

All that to say, my gut tells me that Serpent Sting is the obvious choice and it's pretty easy to maintain. Especially when I've been reading that we value the consistency of BM versus the burst of Survival. What's the reasoning for DFG over Serpent sting in a Raid/Mythic+ environment? If Surv's weakness truly is AoE, why not do the best we can to mitigate that weakness?

Just tagging you both to say that, unfortunately, I don't know the answers to either comment. I'm sorry about that. I've let Azor know that the comments are here, but as Mythic progression has just started, he might be slightly slower to reply than normal. 

Once again, my apologies and I hope you get your answers soon! :)

Thanks for your understanding!

[Ilovemuffins 0]

2 minutes ago, Blainie said:

Just tagging you both to say that, unfortunately, I don't know the answers to either comment. I'm sorry about that. I've let Azor know that the comments are here, but as Mythic progression has just started, he might be slightly slower to reply than normal. 

Once again, my apologies and I hope you get your answers soon! :)

Thanks for your understanding!

Not a problem! I'm happy to test a little myself in the mean time

[Valks 2,373]

Just now, Ilovemuffins said:

Not a problem! I'm happy to test a little myself in the mean time

Fantastic. If you do find anything notable or that you feel Azor might feel is worth looking at from your testing, post it here. Feedback is useful, especially when it is constructive :)

[Deswind 0]

I'm wondering how to properly use Fury of the Eagle after the opener. I read that it should only be used when you only have 6 stacks of Mongoose Fury. The problem is that there are times that I can only get around 4-5 on average while FotE is up and the stacks are about to fall off. Do I really not use it until I get 6, or should I use it on CD with whatever stacks I have? What takes more priority here?

Edited September 28, 2016 by Deswind

[Valks 2,373]

11 hours ago, Deswind said:

I'm wondering how to properly use Fury of the Eagle after the opener. I read that it should only be used when you only have 6 stacks of Mongoose Fury. The problem is that there are times that I can only get around 4-5 on average while FotE is up and the stacks are about to fall off. Do I really not use it until I get 6, or should I use it on CD with whatever stacks I have? What takes more priority here?

From what I understand from the guide, using it on CD is important - the priority is essentially saying that, when you have 6 stacks, you should use it. It's not saying only when you have 6 stacks. I think it simply leaps up the priority when you do have 6 stacks. 

Reading the Fury of the Eagle section might help in the "Mastering" section.