Survival Hunter 7.3

[Kovert 0]

WoTM is too hard to actually keep up, and requires sacrificing uptime on Lacerate, Explosive Trap and Mongoose Strike. The duration of WoTM needs to be increased by at least twice as much. Animal Instincts to me may or not be better than WoTM, but its 100% better in situations where WoTM cannot be kept up 100% of the time. WoTM adds another layer of ramp-up time to the already existing ramp-up that exists in Mongoose Fury, and for that reason alone I believe WoTM is inferior in terms of realistic DPS output. For Sims it may be better, but realistically I think everyone can agree that WoTM is TOO invasive/disruptive to the already bloated rotation that exists in SV. Ideally, I think Raptor Strike should be pruned completely and Flanking Strike should have its CD removed and make it the primary focus dump, however we can still get by with almost never using Raptor Strike if enough stats exist on the player that they get a constant inflow of Mongoose Bite procs, which seems pretty realizable with enough haste. I tested my rotation on the boss dummy and have had more DPS with Animal Instincts because of a much simpler, easy to manage rotation. So now, we are presented with two choices really as SV, the more difficult Raptor-Strike WoTM rotation or the simpler Animal Instincts Flanking-Strike rotation. It is up to your discretion, but I suggest the simpler Animal Instincts/Flanking-Strike rotation. Now we know that Mastery is not our best stat, but it does help that it is working better than before. The real problem I have is determining our stat weights, but since SimC is slacking on that department, we will just have to wait. I am liking the overall attention Survival has received, but they really need to just prune Raptor-Strike. 

[Azortharion 60]

There will be guide updates in the coming days with regards to some talent choices including, probably, the first tier.

[Radius112 0]

2 hours ago, Kovert said:

WoTM is too hard to actually keep up, and requires sacrificing uptime on Lacerate, Explosive Trap and Mongoose Strike. The duration of WoTM needs to be increased by at least twice as much. Animal Instincts to me may or not be better than WoTM, but its 100% better in situations where WoTM cannot be kept up 100% of the time. WoTM adds another layer of ramp-up time to the already existing ramp-up that exists in Mongoose Fury, and for that reason alone I believe WoTM is inferior in terms of realistic DPS output. For Sims it may be better, but realistically I think everyone can agree that WoTM is TOO invasive/disruptive to the already bloated rotation that exists in SV. Ideally, I think Raptor Strike should be pruned completely and Flanking Strike should have its CD removed and make it the primary focus dump, however we can still get by with almost never using Raptor Strike if enough stats exist on the player that they get a constant inflow of Mongoose Bite procs, which seems pretty realizable with enough haste. I tested my rotation on the boss dummy and have had more DPS with Animal Instincts because of a much simpler, easy to manage rotation. So now, we are presented with two choices really as SV, the more difficult Raptor-Strike WoTM rotation or the simpler Animal Instincts Flanking-Strike rotation. It is up to your discretion, but I suggest the simpler Animal Instincts/Flanking-Strike rotation. Now we know that Mastery is not our best stat, but it does help that it is working better than before. The real problem I have is determining our stat weights, but since SimC is slacking on that department, we will just have to wait. I am liking the overall attention Survival has received, but they really need to just prune Raptor-Strike. 

While I agree that you sacrifice a lot for the WotM, but I actually gained DPS (without any new gear) since I started using the WotM spec. I think this may be due to playstyle preference, since I like keeping buffs up and always planning ahead with multiple things. After playing the last week exclusively WotM as my tier 1 choice I've tried to summarize my experience with it;

Direct prosequences:

• You gain AoE DPS, especially in cleave situations. While in a full AoE pack you may not want to build the stacks, but if you've already got the stacks from another pull (like in a M+) or a ST boss, then just mashing RS every once in a while to keep the buff is worth it for the gain.
• The playstyle is much more fluent, if you like it that way. The non-WotM playstyle is much more about just mashing whats not on CD and sometimes you just get in these wierd gaps.

Direct consequences:

• You don't get as much out from your AotE. Since you have to spend atleast 2 GCDs on RS you are losing out on potential MB attacks (which I'm bathing in during AotE right now with my haste levels).  As a result of this, FotE gets affected aswell.
• Building up the stacks delays your other stuff. You get more ramp-up time.

 

Comments on the pros/cons:

Since you don't get as much from your AotE, then Snake Hunter becomes less relevant as a talent. When simming the talents in t2 against eachother then Snake Hunter will (always) come out on top. However that requires perfect planning of both your AotE, WotM AND MF buffs, which is super tough. Since Mortal Wounds does almost the same thing as SH I've tried AmoC. AmoC also helps in AoE situations, and it work much better in realistic scenarios. While it might do somewhat lower DPS on pure-ST, it's much more manageable. However AmoC is also another button that gets delayed when trying to keep the WotM buff up which isn't as good. Which binrgs me onto another button; DfG.

DfG is, like every other ability we use on CD, very clunky to use. Therefor I've tried Serpent Sting. Since Serpent Sting is automatically kept up on ST thanks to WotM then you won't be delaying a DfG. Serpent Sting only sims slightly behind.

 

Since this is probably a very biased post. I "want to like" WotM because I dislike the other two choices in tier 1; I dislike the extra button in the clunky spec of SV with Throwing Axes and I dislike Animal Instincts due to how it offputs my AotE with SH. 

 

I'm currently running 2021121 as talents and I've had no other combinations (with WotM selected) that I've been doing higher DPS with in realistic situations (Several M+, EN N and EN HC). But it may be because of my non-elite skill level since I'm not raiding Mythic EN.

[Kovert 0]

2 hours ago, Radius112 said:

While I agree that you sacrifice a lot for the WotM, but I actually gained DPS (without any new gear) since I started using the WotM spec. I think this may be due to playstyle preference, since I like keeping buffs up and always planning ahead with multiple things. After playing the last week exclusively WotM as my tier 1 choice I've tried to summarize my experience with it;

Direct prosequences:

• You gain AoE DPS, especially in cleave situations. While in a full AoE pack you may not want to build the stacks, but if you've already got the stacks from another pull (like in a M+) or a ST boss, then just mashing RS every once in a while to keep the buff is worth it for the gain.
• The playstyle is much more fluent, if you like it that way. The non-WotM playstyle is much more about just mashing whats not on CD and sometimes you just get in these wierd gaps.

Direct consequences:

• You don't get as much out from your AotE. Since you have to spend atleast 2 GCDs on RS you are losing out on potential MB attacks (which I'm bathing in during AotE right now with my haste levels).  As a result of this, FotE gets affected aswell.
• Building up the stacks delays your other stuff. You get more ramp-up time.

 

Comments on the pros/cons:

Since you don't get as much from your AotE, then Snake Hunter becomes less relevant as a talent. When simming the talents in t2 against eachother then Snake Hunter will (always) come out on top. However that requires perfect planning of both your AotE, WotM AND MF buffs, which is super tough. Since Mortal Wounds does almost the same thing as SH I've tried AmoC. AmoC also helps in AoE situations, and it work much better in realistic scenarios. While it might do somewhat lower DPS on pure-ST, it's much more manageable. However AmoC is also another button that gets delayed when trying to keep the WotM buff up which isn't as good. Which binrgs me onto another button; DfG.

DfG is, like every other ability we use on CD, very clunky to use. Therefor I've tried Serpent Sting. Since Serpent Sting is automatically kept up on ST thanks to WotM then you won't be delaying a DfG. Serpent Sting only sims slightly behind.

 

Since this is probably a very biased post. I "want to like" WotM because I dislike the other two choices in tier 1; I dislike the extra button in the clunky spec of SV with Throwing Axes and I dislike Animal Instincts due to how it offputs my AotE with SH. 

 

I'm currently running 2021121 as talents and I've had no other combinations (with WotM selected) that I've been doing higher DPS with in realistic situations (Several M+, EN N and EN HC). But it may be because of my non-elite skill level since I'm not raiding Mythic EN.

This is what I am using. I am choosing not to use MoC because it takes away from the focus needed to use Flanking Strike on cooldown. Survival is a very "focus neutral" build. I also found that Mortal Wounds generates for me more procs of Mongoose Bite, but Snake Hunter is more convenient for those 3 Mongoose procs to ensure a 6stack AotE, however when testing between the two, I found that my damage was overall higher with Mortal Wounds because I was just getting overall more procs of Mongoose Bite, maybe because I have a lot of haste, therefore more ticks, but also because since they sorta fixed the mastery, I am seeing overall more Mongoose procs. The "weird gaps" you mentioned is what I would refer to as "downtime". It is something I personally welcome. Having downtime is a good thing in my opinion because I am able to fully convert most of my focus into damage, and it is easier to manage than a GCD-capped rotation. I do not disagree with the points you made, they in fact reinforce points I made in the post you responded to, but I think WoTM build would be a lot better if it's duration was at the very least doubled. 

Edited November 2, 2016 by Kovert

[Radius112 0]

8 hours ago, Kovert said:

This is what I am using. I am choosing not to use MoC because it takes away from the focus needed to use Flanking Strike on cooldown. Survival is a very "focus neutral" build. I also found that Mortal Wounds generates for me more procs of Mongoose Bite, but Snake Hunter is more convenient for those 3 Mongoose procs to ensure a 6stack AotE, however when testing between the two, I found that my damage was overall higher with Mortal Wounds because I was just getting overall more procs of Mongoose Bite, maybe because I have a lot of haste, therefore more ticks, but also because since they sorta fixed the mastery, I am seeing overall more Mongoose procs. The "weird gaps" you mentioned is what I would refer to as "downtime". It is something I personally welcome. Having downtime is a good thing in my opinion because I am able to fully convert most of my focus into damage, and it is easier to manage than a GCD-capped rotation. I do not disagree with the points you made, they in fact reinforce points I made in the post you responded to, but I think WoTM build would be a lot better if it's duration was at the very least doubled. 

Where do you put FS in your priority list? Using it on CD seems hard when we've got so much other stuff to do, not to mention when we get multiple MB procs that neds to be used. I'm interested because when I'm playing your talent setup (but with SH) the priority of FS is the lowest of all for me. And with all these MB procs since the fix I'm finding myself spaming MB a lot more which doesn't give me the time to use FS. This week I'll try this build instead of WotM to compare these specs to see what I really prefer.

With both our argumentations I think we can conclude that it boils down to a matter of preference between a WotM build or AI build, and that SH shouldnt be an auto-pick with the amount of procs were having right now since the fix (especially with AotE up, I'm at 20 % haste and 7% mastery as of now and can barely use up all MB procs if I disregard the uptime on WotM).

I'm intrested to see what changes Azor will make as it seems like many talent (and some rotation wise) related questions are still in the air even tho the build were presented with as of now seems like an ever-ruling cookie-cutter build.

[NocsT 0]

BM main spec but have been dumping AP in my SV weap after reaching 30 traits.

 

I'm sitting at 881 ilvl with SV (29 traits, just missing the last golden since 10% MB damage and 10% crit on FS were netting higher DPS gains)

BM legendary ring equipped, Have 16% mastery. 1-1-1-2-2-2-2 has been yielding highest DPS for my gear.

Unbuffed stats are: 37.5% Crit, 9.5% Haste, 9% Vers, 16.5% mast.

Opener is Harpoon, trap, grenade, lacerate, crows, bitex2 then pop eagle.

 

You're basically free to spam bite as you're approaching two stacks and fill in with flanking with only 1 charge.  WotM and Axes are innately clunky and this setup offers a much more fluid playstyle.  ST damage is surprisingly competitive with BM (even running 2% 1flat KillCommand glyphs).

Once I hit this last golden for SV I'm just going to sit on my AP until either the BM belt or bracers drop to let that determine my main spec.

 

TL;DR: if you're playing BM or marks don't let having high roll mastery gear deter you from trying out sv.

 

[Reinhilde 1]

I posted this on the main SV theorycrafting thread on the wow forums. After testing for over an hour, I found that the trinket "Unstable Horrorslime" could proc on something we previously did not know: (Previously, to my knowledge, we believed it only procced from Explosive Trap/DoT, Harpoon/DoT, Dragonsfire/DoT, and Throwing Axes/Axe Toss).

However, it can proc from Serpent Sting AND the application of Serpent Sting. (As in, just from using Raptor Strike and Carve). After doing quite a few mythic dungeons, this trinket accounted for 8% of my dps.

I feel like with this knowledge, the trinket is MUCH more valuable than we previously believed. Especially for more than 1 target, but even on single target. I'd like to see some updated trinket sims with this knowledge to see what is good.

Also, if I might ask: Why don't you include Raid Finder quality trinkets in your list? Some players only have access to that, so it's a bit weird to exclude those.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Reinhilde

[Azortharion 60]

 

2 hours ago, NocsT said:

BM main spec but have been dumping AP in my SV weap after reaching 30 traits.

 

I'm sitting at 881 ilvl with SV (29 traits, just missing the last golden since 10% MB damage and 10% crit on FS were netting higher DPS gains)

BM legendary ring equipped, Have 16% mastery. 1-1-1-2-2-2-2 has been yielding highest DPS for my gear.

Unbuffed stats are: 37.5% Crit, 9.5% Haste, 9% Vers, 16.5% mast.

Opener is Harpoon, trap, grenade, lacerate, crows, bitex2 then pop eagle.

 

You're basically free to spam bite as you're approaching two stacks and fill in with flanking with only 1 charge.  WotM and Axes are innately clunky and this setup offers a much more fluid playstyle.  ST damage is surprisingly competitive with BM (even running 2% 1flat KillCommand glyphs).

Once I hit this last golden for SV I'm just going to sit on my AP until either the BM belt or bracers drop to let that determine my main spec.

 

TL;DR: if you're playing BM or marks don't let having high roll mastery gear deter you from trying out sv.

 

Is this based on anything but anecdote..?

[Azortharion 60]

44 minutes ago, Reinhilde said:

I posted this on the main SV theorycrafting thread on the wow forums. After testing for over an hour, I found that the trinket "Unstable Horrorslime" could proc on something we previously did not know: (Previously, to my knowledge, we believed it only procced from Explosive Trap/DoT, Harpoon/DoT, Dragonsfire/DoT, and Throwing Axes/Axe Toss).

However, it can proc from Serpent Sting AND the application of Serpent Sting. (As in, just from using Raptor Strike and Carve). After doing quite a few mythic dungeons, this trinket accounted for 8% of my dps.

I feel like with this knowledge, the trinket is MUCH more valuable than we previously believed. Especially for more than 1 target, but even on single target. I'd like to see some updated trinket sims with this knowledge to see what is good.

Also, if I might ask: Why don't you include Raid Finder quality trinkets in your list? Some players only have access to that, so it's a bit weird to exclude those.

Unstable Horrorslime is RPPM, it either procs or doesn't proc for a spec, it makes no difference if additional abilities introduce more chances because of how RPPM works.

Adding Raid Finder trinkets is kind of bloaty because only very few players are limited to just those - and you can pretty easily infer how good they are based on the gaps between Normal, HC and Mythic versions.

[Ilovemuffins 0]

Been doing some testing with butchery in M+. I like it a lot better than DFG. It does more burst and is more reliably available than DFG.

Anyone have thoughts on DFG vs Butchery? obviously Butchery is a focus dump and DFG doesn't care about. Maybe DFG with carves is actually better? Or serpent sting?

[Kovert 0]

On 11/3/2016 at 3:36 AM, Radius112 said:

Where do you put FS in your priority list? Using it on CD seems hard when we've got so much other stuff to do, not to mention when we get multiple MB procs that neds to be used. I'm interested because when I'm playing your talent setup (but with SH) the priority of FS is the lowest of all for me. And with all these MB procs since the fix I'm finding myself spaming MB a lot more which doesn't give me the time to use FS. This week I'll try this build instead of WotM to compare these specs to see what I really prefer.

With both our argumentations I think we can conclude that it boils down to a matter of preference between a WotM build or AI build, and that SH shouldnt be an auto-pick with the amount of procs were having right now since the fix (especially with AotE up, I'm at 20 % haste and 7% mastery as of now and can barely use up all MB procs if I disregard the uptime on WotM).

I'm intrested to see what changes Azor will make as it seems like many talent (and some rotation wise) related questions are still in the air even tho the build were presented with as of now seems like an ever-ruling cookie-cutter build.

Well, you know the priority. If you're in Mongoose Fury, you might want to prioritize FS to milk out more procs depending on whether you're at 6 stacks or not. Look at this parse from a high ranking SV Hunter. FS represents his second most damage done ability. I also want to add that currently, the T19 bonus pretty much means you won't be using WoTM. 

Edited November 6, 2016 by Kovert

[Azortharion 60]

23 hours ago, Ilovemuffins said:

Been doing some testing with butchery in M+. I like it a lot better than DFG. It does more burst and is more reliably available than DFG.

Anyone have thoughts on DFG vs Butchery? obviously Butchery is a focus dump and DFG doesn't care about. Maybe DFG with carves is actually better? Or serpent sting?

This is what the guide is for, I feel like. :s

[Guest Survival Noob 101]

On 10/28/2016 at 10:09 PM, Azortharion said:

1) Likely make Survival a pretty solid spec. Maybe even the strongest single-target performer. Yeah, really.
2) Almost definitely make Mastery a half-decent stat. Probably still the worst.

Do we have anymore information on these two points?  I would be curious/excited to see the data reflecting 1, and I always felt like mastery was good on paper, but it's application has always been lackluster.  It would be nice to see it as substantial as the other stats.

[Ziggers 0]

just my two cents but all this mastery haste stacking reduces damage of all our cooldowns...

[Azortharion 60]

1 hour ago, Ziggers said:

just my two cents but all this mastery haste stacking reduces damage of all our cooldowns...

What's your point exactly?

[Azortharion 60]

2 hours ago, Guest Survival Noob 101 said:

Do we have anymore information on these two points?  I would be curious/excited to see the data reflecting 1, and I always felt like mastery was good on paper, but it's application has always been lackluster.  It would be nice to see it as substantial as the other stats.

1) is hard to prove as no one really plays Survival, because Marksmanship is still the better spec.

2) is well covered in the guide.

[Guest Hello]

20 minutes ago, Azortharion said:

1) is hard to prove as no one really plays Survival, because Marksmanship is still the better spec.

2) is well covered in the guide.

1) If it's potentially the best single target performer, how is MM just better?

2) Well now it is.

[Azortharion 60]

Marksmanship is a medium-tier pure single-target performer as a general statement, yet it is one of the best raiding specs in the entire game, if not the best. Single-target output has little to no say in progression raiding performance. 

It was covered before you wrote your post.
https://puu.sh/s8J7o/3abbc8ee4a.png

[NocsT 0]

On 11/5/2016 at 1:25 PM, Ilovemuffins said:

Been doing some testing with butchery in M+. I like it a lot better than DFG. It does more burst and is more reliably available than DFG.

Anyone have thoughts on DFG vs Butchery? obviously Butchery is a focus dump and DFG doesn't care about. Maybe DFG with carves is actually better? Or serpent sting?

Depends on the instance but it's pretty easy to gauge. Butchery wins easily if you're able to utilize it.  Nelth's is probably the only thing you don't want it in.

[Blazenar 0]

Why Primary stat change to versatility?

Why murder of crows is better option than snake hunter 

And why moknathal talents is still enable man? lol this build is terrible..

[Azortharion 60]

1) Crows prefers Vers. So does non-Way builds which are very viable and will be used by many.

2) Read the appropriate section for an explanation on Crows > Snake.

3) Because it's still the best talent.

[Ilovemuffins 0]

On 11/6/2016 at 0:21 PM, Azortharion said:

This is what the guide is for, I feel like. :s

Oh, sorry, I thought it haddn't been updated yet. Didn't you say you were working on getting 7.1 update into there? I guess that didn't get updated in the patch, but was still curious what the differences were in Mythic+ specifically.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Ilovemuffins

[Chidora 0]

On 11/5/2016 at 10:32 PM, Kovert said:

Well, you know the priority. If you're in Mongoose Fury, you might want to prioritize FS to milk out more procs depending on whether you're at 6 stacks or not. Look at this parse from a high ranking SV Hunter. FS represents his second most damage done ability. I also want to add that currently, the T19 bonus pretty much means you won't be using WoTM. 

FS does pretty ridiculous amounts of Damage, in PvE and PvP. On average it crits for 500k-650k (that's you and your pet's dmg). https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hkgbFwYxJ1mNVTQG#fight=20&type=damage-done&source=21 That's a parse from a H Ursoc kill yesterday with my guild. 

Edited November 9, 2016 by Chidora

[Guest Yooi]

unstable horrorslime at 880 is pretty decent for mythic plus content as survival depending on the difficulty.

can you shed some light on the process of getting that particular opener with mok? for me personally depending on bl or no this does not really work out.

[Guest Shammikaze]

What happened to Twisting Wind in the trinket simulations?  Previously it was listed as one of the top trinkets for Survival.  (It does trigger for us still, right?)