Protection Warrior 7.3

[Valks 2,373]

9 hours ago, shaiken21 said:

I actually have a question about the updated guide.Pertaining to netherlight crucible it goes into the priority of the t2 paths but t3 it says "The Tier 3 upgrades priority has been discussed at the top of this page." but when you look at the top of the page there's nothing but the intro.Is there an updated priority or are we to just wing it as is?

It is discussed above the Tier 2 traits.

Quote

Defensively, you should mostly use the highest item level relic you have and simply make the best of the traits it provides you with. The exception to this is  Bastion of the Aspects, which is a trait you should try to get in all 3 of your relics, if at all possible. If you can combine this trait with  Vrykul Shield Training or  Dragon Skin, then that is a very solid defensive relic.

Offensively (especially for Mythic+), you can sacrifice item levels to make sure all 3 relics have both  Rage of the Fallen and  Thunder Crash.

Hope this helps.

[Allseye 96]

I'm pretty unsure if 4P T20 & 2P T21 is the way to go, i'm really sceptical . This is again based on (too) theoritical calulations as it was with the swing-timer for devestator. The one who did the calucations does some statements i can't subscribe. If someone likes to read up, here is the link:

https://bastionofdefense.com/tier21/

He's doing some calulactions based on "tanking-uptime". It's true, the 4P T21 does just help while we're tanking. But, is that much rage necessary while not tanking? And is it worth dropping ilvl (this also means less stamina)? There is also a good post on mmo-champion, where the 4P T20 & 2P T21 setup gets challenged:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2333666-Protection-Gearing-for-Antorus

Personally, i'm aiming for 4P T21 and will be playing bracers/gloves in raids, i really like the interaction so much.

[Valks 2,373]

On 11/30/2017 at 12:29 PM, Allseye said:

He's doing some calulactions based on "tanking-uptime". It's true, the 4P T21 does just help while we're tanking. But, is that much rage necessary while not tanking? And is it worth dropping ilvl (this also means less stamina)?

I think the main use of the rage when not tanking is essentially a setup build - you are using AM and the insane amount of rage you generate to prepare yourself to essentially have as many defensive abilities ready before you start tanking again. While that extra rage is "wasted" on DPS while you aren't tanking, it's still lowering the CD of defensives so that they are up for your next tanking stint. I think a higher emphasis on AM in the guide while running the 4-20 and 2-21 would be worth mentioning, rather than putting HR first.

On dropping item level, that drop in stamina will be off-set by the increased amount of rage generated, as well as the increased uptime on CDs.

[Allseye 96]

I see the point, but i'm not convinced at all. Do i need that much CD-lowering outside tanking? - I think i dont. CD will already be much lowered with AM, even i dont wear 4-20/2-21.

Futhermore, I already do have enough rage to prepare and stack IP while not tanking. With that much rage, i really think i would overcap IP just to lower rage. Additonally, I would feel forced to use demoshout/shieldwall on CD, otherwise it's wasted rage because there is no CD lowering. Do i like this behaviour in case of survivability? - No, i dont. I like to smooth my inc.-dmg in special situations, there it is where i need my shieldwall to be ready. 

Next point: If i really have to focus on survivability i will run HR*. Or do you think we will be able to use demoshout/IP that much more to smooth our inc. dmg better than with higher SB-Uptime? And even when, does this overule the 4P T21 bonus?

So you see, even the math and numbers are correct, i think its too theoritical and not worth droping ilvl and 4P T21. But i'm really interested in your view, what do you think about my statements?

 

*There is one exception: if a fight is very magic-based. Then yes, this combination will be really interesting because i will run AM and rage-gain is very essential in our survivability. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Allseye

[Arkanigth 0]

anyone know the weight for warrior protection why i have used raidbots.com and simulationcraft and do not hit the stats

I thank the attention!!!
 

[Valks 2,373]

On 12/2/2017 at 2:48 PM, Allseye said:

Next point: If i really have to focus on survivability i will run HR*. Or do you think we will be able to use demoshout/IP that much more to smooth our inc. dmg better than with higher SB-Uptime? And even when, does this overule the 4P T21 bonus?

So you see, even the math and numbers are correct, i think its too theoritical and not worth droping ilvl and 4P T21. But i'm really interested in your view, what do you think about my statements?

Revisiting this - I think the ability to put out ~14-second cooldown Demo Shouts is huge, even when you aren't tanking. It's a debuff that helps your OT as well. This can free up cooldowns from healers etc., should you need it or anyone else in the raid. You can also look at giving yourself 1, even 2, complete uses of Shield Wall, should you have a fight that is long enough. On a ~3 minute fight, you can probably grab an extra use.

From what I've seen from our Warrior tank (has 4-20/2-21), he's loving it and has had no difficulty at all staying alive while using things on CD (he delays occasionally based on whether it will impact the number of casts in the fight).

Have you had a chance to play with it?

[Valks 2,373]

On 12/6/2017 at 2:08 AM, Arkanigth said:

anyone know the weight for warrior protection why i have used raidbots.com and simulationcraft and do not hit the stats

I thank the attention!!!
 

You can't really generate stat weights for Prot, sorry. Only for their DPS output, not survivability. 

You'll basically just prioritise item level outside of set pieces, then look for Haste > Mastery >= Vers > Crit.

[Allseye 96]

4 hours ago, Blainie said:

Revisiting this - I think the ability to put out ~14-second cooldown Demo Shouts is huge, even when you aren't tanking. It's a debuff that helps your OT as well. This can free up cooldowns from healers etc., should you need it or anyone else in the raid. You can also look at giving yourself 1, even 2, complete uses of Shield Wall, should you have a fight that is long enough. On a ~3 minute fight, you can probably grab an extra use.

From what I've seen from our Warrior tank (has 4-20/2-21), he's loving it and has had no difficulty at all staying alive while using things on CD (he delays occasionally based on whether it will impact the number of casts in the fight).

Have you had a chance to play with it?

Unfortunetly not, loot was not friendly to me. But even when, my T20setpieces are pretty low (because my guild is not raiding mythic). I would have to sacrifice up to +40ilvl - and thats too much. If your warrior is running with t20 mythic gear, it is not that a big loss. Well then it is much more interesting than it is in my case.

Oh, i  understand that it must be really fun to play with that much BC/Demoshout :-). But i dont think it's a real improvement in survivability. 

You say demoshout helps my OT as well...in what kind does it? As i know it just reduces MY dmg taken, it was in earlier versions where it reduced dmg in general. But yeah, maybe i'm wrong :-). 

[Arkanigth 0]

so basically how much higher is the better ilevel? more if you have 2 items of ilevel equal what would win would be the one that has followed mastery by?
 

[Valks 2,373]

18 hours ago, Allseye said:

Unfortunetly not, loot was not friendly to me. But even when, my T20setpieces are pretty low (because my guild is not raiding mythic). I would have to sacrifice up to +40ilvl - and thats too much. If your warrior is running with t20 mythic gear, it is not that a big loss. Well then it is much more interesting than it is in my case.

Oh, i  understand that it must be really fun to play with that much BC/Demoshout :-). But i dont think it's a real improvement in survivability. 

I think it also depends on the boss you're tanking. It's a major improvement on Hounds (you're always tanking something), High Command (can be on boss or adds), Eonar kind of, Hasabel (always tanking something), Imonar kind of (tanking for 1 minute intervals between side swaps), and so on.

On most Antorus bosses, you spend enough time tanking something that I do think it ends up being worth it. On some of them, it's just due to long tanking periods meaning you have a long time to spend those CDs, but on others, like Hounds/Command, you can literally spam things on CD.

18 hours ago, Allseye said:

You say demoshout helps my OT as well...in what kind does it? As i know it just reduces MY dmg taken, it was in earlier versions where it reduced dmg in general. But yeah, maybe i'm wrong :-). 

Forgot they turned it into an Honor Talent, sorry!

[Arkanigth 0]

I'm with 19k of hast 51% Will not that be much or will I keep looking for more? Do not have a cap to hast? Someone can help me D:
 

[Valks 2,373]

On 12/29/2017 at 4:59 PM, Arkanigth said:

I'm with 19k of hast 51% Will not that be much or will I keep looking for more? Do not have a cap to hast? Someone can help me D:
 

If you're hitting a point of 100% uptime on Shield Block, you can start to ignore Haste, but don't drop below 100% uptime. Also, do it as you feel comfortable. If you like playing with more Haste, you can keep taking it. It's still a very good stat.

[Allseye 96]

Thanks 4 this work and give a overview. I just got some remarks where i think it has to reviewed:

• Abilitly changes of Ignore Pain is incomplete. Its not that its reduced dmg has changed from 90% to 50%. Its rage-cost has been adjusted, it always costs 40 rage and its absorbed dmg so is consistent (doesn't scale with rage invested). As far is i heard, the maximum of absorbed dmg has also been adjusted (but this i'm not sure and i can't provide a source).
• In my calculation, Vengeance is not really helpful in kind of survivability. In chapter 7.3 it's recommended to cast Revenge before IP. But is this really true? We should mean it is, then otherwise vengeance doesn't make sense. But here is my problem, just with a bit of math: Cost of IP and Revenge is reduced by 33% if you wave it. This means: IP cost is 26.8 and Revenge costs 20.1. In case of survivability, to cast one IP we have to invest 26.8 + 20.1 rage, which leads to 46.9 rage. This is more, than we just cast IP without weaving Revenge. This means, Vengeance just helps, if Revenge is a freeproc, then you will save 13.2 rage (33% of 40 rage). Now you can say: well, revenge can reset Shield Slam (SS), so there is a suvivability benefit for weaving it (and get more rage due to SS resets). And I say no, it's not. Because when we pick Vengeance, we can't pick Devestator. We can cast Devestate instead of Revenge and have the same chance to reset SS.
  
  So here is my conclusion for Vengeance: the recommendation to cast Revenge infront of every IP is wrong (for suvivablilty - but for DPS we won't even pick it). We should cast Revenge just to dump rage or we have a free-procc. There is no rotation-adjustment we play with Vengeance. Survivabilitywise (and DPS-wise too) Booming Voice is the go to talent. Devestator can be usefull if our rotation gets CD-looked due to too much rage (so we can "spam" Revenge and get more SS resets). Vengeance is something in between and i'm not even sure if its even better than Devestator survivabilitywise.

What do you think? Did i forget a mecanic that will justify your chapter 7.3?

[Valks 2,373]

On 6/29/2018 at 11:09 AM, Allseye said:

What do you think? Did i forget a mecanic that will justify your chapter 7.3?

So, I ran this by Marok and this is a quote of what he responded with:

Quote

He's correct about IP in that I didn't mention the cost adjustment or the new cap, which is my mistake. I'll get that fixed ASAP.

So, first point, you're right. That'll be updated. On the Vengeance point, he said this:

Quote

He's not correct about Vengeance. His basis is correct, but the conclusion he came to is not. It's worth forcing Revenge where you normally wouldn't cast it because when Free Revenges and Shield Slam resets are taken into account, the average cost of a "Vengeance rotation" (Rev + IP), is less than 40. The rage savings Vengeance provides is vastly better than BV. From a pure survivability standpoint Vengeance is better. I actually just finished up a spreadsheet and part of it is looking at exactly that.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nWJbJFR-a2hjG5C3p_Oi8aumGxQx9PD2sdoMFViJyck/edit#gid=0 

Hopefully this clears some stuff up for you!

[Allseye 96]

15 hours ago, Blainie said:

So, I ran this by Marok and this is a quote of what he responded with:

So, first point, you're right. That'll be updated. On the Vengeance point, he said this:

Hopefully this clears some stuff up for you!

Thx a lot for your and maroks response. I really appreciate it, this is a cool work he did! I just had a short look into the spreadsheet. In my opinion, there are some errors which leads to to high rage-savings with vengeance. I could not take a deeper look yet, but as far as i can see, these points are wrong:

- avg. cost of cast. As he mentioned, the cost arent adjusted. It will lead to lower number due to cost of IP are reduced from 60 to 40. This means lower effectiv rage-savings due to %-based reduction. 

- there are considered rage savings due to SS-proccs. This is no longer true (already stated this in my post before). We can't use devestator with vengeance, there is no gain in SS-proccs when using Revenge because its not an addiotional cast. You just cast it instead of Devestate. 

- if you like to compare vegeance with demo shout in term of survivabilty, you have to take into account that demoshout reduces the inc. dmg. You would have to calculate the needed amount of rage to absorb this dmg with IP. This gets even worse when thinking about hardhitter and multitarget tanking. I wouldn't take this into account in the spreadsheet, but keep this in mind. 

- calc. of rage-saving. There is a 70 rage to compare with in the spreadsheet (cell L31). In term if survivavilty, there should be a 40.

If i find some time i will adjust the spreadsheet in this direction and see, how numbers gonna look alike :-). Evtl. I'm wrong, but it seems to me vengeance will not nearly perform that good.

I'm looking forward to yours and maroks thougths ?

Update:
Shit, wrote a whole Story and then lost my text. To Keep it short, here is my spreadsheet how it should look in my opinion:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MEVNVcYxxqWYot0bzN8Gwx89WdMHJoX9PI4i-pQFd3E/edit#gid=0

Vengeance has by far the worst RPS.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Allseye

[Marok 1]

On 7/3/2018 at 7:25 AM, Allseye said:

snip

Thank you for the feedback. You are correct in that I was incorrectly valuing Rage savings with Vengeance. That's been fixed and the suggested talent on that tier is now Booming Voice. You should see those changes reflected on the BfA page soon.

[Valks 2,373]

This guide will be updated for the release of the pre-patch of Battle for Azeroth in the next few days. We are aiming to have every guide deployed prior to the patch going live.

Please note that a new feedback thread will be created for the new guide, meaning that this one will be archived. Any feedback you have for the new guide should be placed in the new comment thread.

Thank you all for your patience and we are working to get the new guides up as soon as possible.

[Guest Azzabaza]

Seems the Prot war talents are out of date?

[Valks 2,373]

1 hour ago, Guest Azzabaza said:

Seems the Prot war talents are out of date?

What do you mean? These are the pre-patch talents.