Rosario

Arcane Mastery Misevaluation

11 posts in this topic

I think there might be a mistake in how Mastery is being evaluated by the guide. Its evaluated the lowest of the traits, and you can provide an easy mathematical comparison to vers since both give a direct damage boost by percentage.

350 rating points at lvl 110 gives 1 percent to both mastery and to vers, with masterys 1 percent giving 1 percent bonus mana and .5 percent damage boost per arcane charge, meaning while 4 arcane charges are active its a 2 percent boost in damage per 1 percent mastery. 

That would make the damage increase double that of Vers not including the gains made by having the additional mana pool to burn phase ratio.

 

Maybe someone could explain how my calculations are off in this regard or if I am not mistaken Mastery is being dramatically undervalued in the guide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Rosario said:

Maybe someone could explain how my calculations are off in this regard or if I am not mistaken Mastery is being dramatically undervalued in the guide.

This has been argued a HUGE amount in the comments section, as well as in every mage community currently in existence. Going to sum everything up here.

  1. It makes no sense that Mastery is as bad as it is, but it is.
  2. Versatility is the best stat for Arcane.
  3. All of the secondaries are very close to each other in value, but Mastery is still bottom.

This is a simulation that was done checking the stat weights. Haste is slightly above Vers due to the type of sim rotation used, but currently, Vers is better.

6vUOmes.png

 

3Yrbkby.png

This graph shows the weights of the different stats at a higher item level. Vers/Crit/Haste are all very close. Mastery is very clearly bottom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, i see the stat weights put into the simcraft but that doesnt explain the basic math, the literal only way it explains anything is if you take it as the value with only 1 arcane charge instead of 4 since damage values get quadrupled with 4 charges, fact of the matter is you get more percent damage increase on 4 stacks of arcane charges compared with vers, 

Yes, mastery does not apply to mark of aluneth directly, rather indirectly in the final tick to affect the damage portionment which is rather low.

Its also odd that Noxxic's guide - stat weights list Mastery as second in Legion with haste being the lowest stat.

 

If anything it would seem that stacking mastery above anything except int would be the most beneficial since then you get more up time due to a larger mana pool meaning a longer burn phase at 4 stacks, while at lower levels of mastery it would be a sub par stat since you have both the smaller mana pool and smaller damage buff... 

Do you have copies of the statistics formulas used to get this information?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay i had to be in game to see exactly how the game calculated the mastery and vers to understand why the figures werent coming up correctly.

I misevaluated how the mastery functioned as a matter of atacking damage assuming each stqck of arcane power calculated its buff separately stacking instead of additively. IE 4 stacks at 80 percent is 3.2x damage not 1.8x1.8x1.8x1.8

So with a base pool of 1.1 mil mana and arcane familiar mana pool is 1,676,000 mana a difference of 576k or 3.5 casts of arcane blast at 4 stacks. 

Vers does stack better damage wise because its calculates as a multiplicitive buff instead of additive. 

There is also no threshold of base damage that can make up the difference pushing mastery forward since the damage stacks additively and the mana pool is fixed.

So nothing short of increasing base mana regen or increasing the mana pool effect of arcane familiar would improve the other half enough to make mastery more attractive.

 

Sorry for the trouble i just needed to run the numbers physically with the right info.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/22/2016 at 4:07 PM, Rosario said:

Sorry for the trouble i just needed to run the numbers physically with the right info.

That's no problem, thanks for coming back to let me know and I'm sorry for the late reply.

Just wanted to add, Blizzard are buffing Mastery next week due to it being undertuned, so it looks like Mastery might become the best stat now. Will have to see what Furty puts into the guide!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

20% buff means that current mastery weight (.71 according to Furty's investigation) will instantly become .71*1.2=0,852 and it will make mastery the best stat for arcane. I don't know almost anything about simulations but if it uses only +damage component of mastery and ignores mana pull increase the result value will go even further.

In my humble opinion, mastery "must be" the best stat for arcane because of game design. This is the only +dps stat that interacts directly with general idea of arcane spec. And it obliquely confirmed by numerous changes of mastery through all addons. In accordance with that feeling haste "must be" the worst stat for arcane. Not only because mastery will jump from the very bottom to 1-2 position but cause haste "contradicts" with general arcane idea. I'm almost sure that if ongoing buff will not make mastery the best Blizzard will continue buffing it.

It looks like every arcane mage has to become a friend with simcraft because while flames dominates the scene there will no accurate and in-time updates for arcane. Oh I just dreamed of casual gaming... :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Santrid said:

20% buff means that current mastery weight (.71 according to Furty's investigation) will instantly become .71*1.2=0,852 and it will make mastery the best stat for arcane. I don't know almost anything about simulations but if it uses only +damage component of mastery and ignores mana pull increase the result value will go even further.

In my humble opinion, mastery "must be" the best stat for arcane because of game design. This is the only +dps stat that interacts directly with general idea of arcane spec. And it obliquely confirmed by numerous changes of mastery through all addons. In accordance with that feeling haste "must be" the worst stat for arcane. Not only because mastery will jump from the very bottom to 1-2 position but cause haste "contradicts" with general arcane idea. I'm almost sure that if ongoing buff will not make mastery the best Blizzard will continue buffing it.

It looks like every arcane mage has to become a friend with simcraft because while flames dominates the scene there will no accurate and in-time updates for arcane. Oh I just dreamed of casual gaming... :)

The problem with assuming this is that Furty's weight is not correct for every item level. It is a general weight that people can use if they are too lazy to find their own weights, basically.

At different gear levels, Vers had a higher/lower lead on Mastery, so it might be that Mastery is only better at certain gear levels. We'll see when they release the latest findings. Also note that, just because Mastery got a 20% buff, doesn't mean the weight is a simple 1.2* current weight. There are many others things to consider too.

I agree that Mastery SHOULD be top by game design, but it seems they messed up. We'll see if this corrects it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Blainie said:

 Also note that, just because Mastery got a 20% buff, doesn't mean the weight is a simple 1.2* current weight. There are many others things to consider too.

I tried to prove myself wrong when wrote this but I wasn't able to. It looks like all these "things to consider" are already calculated to the moment when we have been taken the final stat weights (for a certain gear and rotation, ofc). This particular buff is cumulative so we probably are allowed to multiply the current value and 1.2.

Maybe I'm still wrong.

Edited by Santrid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

youthe way mastery was a function before based on the additive nature of the stacks at the ratio  you got mastery compared with vers you would never at any gear level, int level be able to make mastery the optimal stat. 

the 20% boost depending on how its implemented should drastically improve the stats to the point of putting it ahead of vers, with vers being the number 2 stat since it actually becomes better the higher the mastery you have

currently at 41% mastery, base mastery is 8% so assuming base mastery remains unchanged then then 33% mastery would get 1.2'd then 8 percent added on, 

which is a throughput increase of 14% increase on mana increase and regen and 7% on damage 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like all of this is now void, Mastery is indeed the top stat after the buffs.

On 9/27/2016 at 4:21 AM, Santrid said:

Maybe I'm still wrong.

Further to what we discussed:

  • Weight was previously 9.43.
  • Same profile now shows Mastery (when extrapolated to fit the same scale as the first sim, with intellect at 17.03) at 15.3-ish.

As I said, you can't just do 1.2*stat weight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where is the source of these 9.43, 15.3, 17.03 weights? Understand me correctly, I do not argue that simple 1.2* is a bad manner to calculate almost anything but in the guide a mastery's weight was 0.71 before hotfix and became 0.85 (0.71*1.2=0.852) after the latest Furty's update :D

 And I'm still looking for additional source of stats weights so your link will be very helpful for me.

Edited by Santrid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Violentravi
      Hello,
      The Sworn is recruiting DPS. We are a Horde guild on Arthas and our current progression is 5/11 Mythic Antorus. We only raid two nights a week, Tuesday and Wednesday from 9:15 PM until 12:15 AM Eastern. Currently, our main goal is to push Mythic progression & finish out the raid before next patch, please keep this in mind if you wish to join us, because we will not be doing Heroic or anything like that.
      From you, we would expect 100% attendance during your trial period; after that if you cannot make a raid or will be late it is mandatory to keep the raid leader updated. In order to continue making good progression while raiding only two nights a week, we expect that you know your class inside-out and will research any bosses you are unfamiliar with prior to raids.
      As far as classes are concerned, at this time, we do not have ANY rogues, DPS warriors, havoc DH, or wind walkers.
      If you are interested, add me to battle tag and we will talk (violentravi#1826), I will accept mostly anyone who wants to be a bench or casual, but for raiding purposes, you must be able to provide logs.
      Thank you for your consideration
      Xoxo
      Violentnacho
    • By Casdon
      [US] Stormreaver — Skunkworks
      Tuesdays & Thursdays: 7:00 P.M. to 11:00 P.M. (pst) || 9-1 (cst) || 10-2 (est)
       
      Progression
      8/11M Antorus
      9/9M ToS
      10/10M Nighthold
      3/3M Trial of Valor
      7/7M Emerald Nightmare
       
      Website
      skunkworksguild.com
       
      About Us
      Skunkworks is a guild for players who can not or do not want to commit to the time-intensive raid schedules of traditional "hardcore" guilds.
      However, we still maintain a high caliber player environment and make an efficient use of our raiding time.
      We raid Tuesdays and Thursdays from 7:00 - 11:00 PST, just 8 hours a week and never more.
       
      We are very protective of our guild environment and selective in recruitment. We are looking for solid players mechanically as well as intellectually.
      We all get paid to deal with idiots, why should we pay to spend our leisure time with them as well?
       
      Skunkworks has been around for multiple expansions and has historically always been at the top of the 2-night raiding guild scene.
       
      Past Raiding Achievements
       
      #US 199 Mythic KJ #US 186 Mythic Archimonde #131 US Heroic Garrosh #68 US Heroic Ra-den #77 US Heroic Lei Shen #86 US Heroic Sha of Fear #106 US Heroic Madness of Deathwing #99 US Heroic Ragnaros #147 US Sinestra #91 US Heroic The Twilight Destroyer (Halion) #71 US Heroic Fall of the Lich King #247 US Tribute to Insanity #160 US Alone in the Darkness Current Guild Needs
      Amazing Range DPS ---Exceptional Candidates always considered regardless of recruiting needs.
       
      How to Apply
      Apply with Google Forms
      https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeL-LW1-7rRK28Z3Nswg4xD3-jjQWrIsCh77rYOdxKwY0oPPQ/viewform.
      All applications are kept private.
      Please include at least the following.
          Prominent links to relevant armory pages ]A guild history with reasons for departure
          The reason(s) you have chosen to apply to this guild
          Warcraft Logs
          UI screenshots or fraps/Stream footage
       
      Contact Information
      Shadaka (GM)
      Real ID:Shadak#1881
       
      Aerivore (Recruitment Officers)
      Real ID:  Aerivore#1581
       
      Sovm
      Real ID: Sov#1192
    • By molodirazz
      All applications will be reviewed and considered however if you are playing a class/spec combination we need then your chances of joining will be higher.
      A little bit of info about us:
      We are a group of friends and serious raiders on EU Twisting Nether looking to recruit skilled like-minded players into our roster for Mythic Legion raids and onwards. We will offer a sociable and fun raiding environment while maintaining a strong desire for progression. Our Discord is very active and we encourage all members to chat and play together not only for raids. The guild formed late March 2016 and fully cleared 13/13 Mythic Hellfire Citadel pre nerf shortly after. We've since been improving our world ranking every tier.
      We currently raid 3 days per week on Mythic: Wednesday, Sunday and Tuesday 19:15-22:15 server time. While it is not a lot we try to make the most out of our time. We run optional heroic/normal/alt/previous tier raids during off days in which raiders are welcome to come to. Our members also play other games outside raid times together where anyone is welcome to join(LoL, PUBG, HotS, Overwatch etc.).
      Our loot system for Mythic is RC Loot Council.
      What we expect from you:
      - We are a raiding guild with only a 9 hour per week schedule so you are expected to attend and be ON TIME! However we understand things can come up sometimes but please let us know.
      - Be able to speak and understand the English language and not be afraid to communicate with other members during raids.
      - Actively doing dungeons/world quests to improve your gear and artifact weapon.
      - Have a strong understanding of the current raid tier and be able to play your class to it's potential.
      - Always come to raids prepared(i.e. bringing food and potions, etc).
      - Come fully gemmed and enchanted with the correct stats for your class and spec.
      - Access to Discord and a working microphone.
      - Have a computer that can handle 20 man raiding and a good, stable internet connection.
      - Exorsus Raid Tools, Weakauras2 and RC Loot Council addons installed. We may ask you to install others.
      If you have any further questions please contact us at battletag: Vims#21684

      To apply please visit our guild website: http://asylum-tn.enjin.com/recruitment
      __________________________________________________________________________
      Requirements to be considered into current main raids:
      - 930~ ilvl
      - 72+ traits.
      - 8/9 in ToS.
      - Exceptions to the requirements may be made.
      _____________________________________________________________________________
      We're currently looking for the classes below but may consider other classes as well.
      Priest: Shadow.
      Druid: Balance.
      Warlock: Affliction.
      Hunter: MM.
      Mage:Frost/fire
      Rogue: Assa/sub
      Any and all applications will be considered.
    • By Xaundi
      https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/malganis/xaundi
      https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/NJv1mDaQ4BxHP9dR
      https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/cLBJ8N26GP9HD73t
      https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/qBdxM7jkKyQ8CgLW
      https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dPF7HvXCjgQNrk14
      https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/24606555
       
      I am following the rotation given in the class page on here. My parses are terrible for my ilvl and I don't understand what i am doing wrong and why my dps isn't higher. i havent been using firestarter because i feel like the boss is only above 90% for 5 seconds. Been using RoP for most fights because i have T21 4p.