T16 Warlock Style - Heroic & Mythic

[Omaric 246]

Mastery gives a flat DPS gain in caster form and a flat DPS gain in meta form, the meta form is x3 the caster form, so PBI giving you a 5-9% mastery gain = a flat HUGE amount of DPS gain in both meta and caster forms. This is strong enough to make demo not only viable but Really strong, when played right.

They changed Dark Soul: Knowledge at the beginning of this patch so that it gives you an unmodifiable 30% mastery, making it so that it can't be affected by PBI.

[Lockybalboa 618]

They changed Dark Soul: Knowledge at the beginning of this patch so that it gives you an unmodifiable 30% mastery, making it so that it can't be affected by PBI.

 

Never said it did

[Omaric 246]

Never said it did

 

Can you help me to understand why it's so key for Demonology then?  I mean I know it's awesome, but it doesn't seem like Demo needs it more than any other caster.

[Lockybalboa 618]

No, demo doesn't gain a fuckton more out of PBI than the other two do (well, kind of) but demo DOES need PBI to be viable in a end raid setting, like heroic Thok. Otherwise the DPS from falls far enough behind the other two specs that it really can only be justified if your raid is massively out gearing the fight or you're a top .001% demo lock.

 

Mastery gives a flat DPS gain in caster form and a flat DPS gain in meta form, the meta form is x3 the caster form, so PBI giving you a 5-9% mastery gain = a flat HUGE amount of DPS gain in both meta and caster forms. This is strong enough to make demo not only viable but Really strong, when played right.

 

You have to forget ToT demo and treat it almost like Aff, meaning that your top goal is to keep a doom rolling on the target(s) that is powerful as can be (like Affs dots but with just one) and then the rest of the time is a give and take flow building DF and spending DF. SS becomes more used to proc your 2pc then it is anything else, it's still good damage, but the 2pc proc and keeping the best up time on that proc is far more important.

 

That said, keep in mind that this is only what I have heard from the demos that HAVE a PBI. I still haven't gotten one nor has Zag, so both of us are still 90% in the theoretical realm when it comes to this. Fairly sure there is one or two demos on IV that have PBI and are making good use of the spec, one of them might be able to weigh in with confirmed information.

 

 

Again, I don't HAVE a PBI so I haven't seen the massive increase that I've heard about. Trying demo without a PBI was crap though Vs. aff/destro.

[Omaric 246]

Wow, yeah you did say that in the very first paragraph.  F'in A, haha.

 

It looked like you were saying the 5-9% in the part I previously quoted, and you have now bolded ( ), was much bigger for Demonology than for other specs.  I had to assume it was because you thought Dark Soul still netted 18,000 mastery.  I still don't think the 5-9% is huge in relation to other specs because it's all based on your current rating.  Maybe I'm confusing myself.

[Liquidsteel 279]

I picked up demonology earlier again to test it out, but didn't manage to get into a flex and the LFR queue's were beyond ridiculous so I gave up. Spent an hour or so hitting dummies though to get a feel for it. Anyway...

 

With close to 11k haste and 16k mastery, Simcraft tells me it's on par with affliction (299k dps with AD talent), but the way it plays just feels extremely clunky. You have no fury on the pull so you spend half of it outside of meta, and during the fight the Molten Core procs aren't exactly frequent. Well snapshotted dots probably allow affliction to pull ahead in actual play, but demo is a lot more mobile and can pretty much always take AD whereas sometimes you might feel you really need the KJC talent for afflic. Regardless, it's very difficult to really react to procs when you aren't generating much fury, and don't have many MC procs coming in.

 

According to Zinnin and a few others over on mmochamp, the spec really picks up if you can hit the 15k (14873) haste breakpoint, as you get a lot more fury to react to procs with, and your molten core procs are more frequent due to the extra imps and shadowflame ticks.

 

I'll give demo a shot in flex after tomorrow's reset and perhaps even on a few heroics when we clear farm on thursday, but for anyone wanting to try it out, I believe the high haste build is the one you want to go for, as otherwise you find yourself fury and molten core starved when you need it.

[Omaric 246]

I picked up demonology earlier again to test it out, but didn't manage to get into a flex and the LFR queue's were beyond ridiculous so I gave up. Spent an hour or so hitting dummies though to get a feel for it. Anyway...

 

With close to 11k haste and 16k mastery, Simcraft tells me it's on par with affliction (299k dps with AD talent), but the way it plays just feels extremely clunky. You have no fury on the pull so you spend half of it outside of meta, and during the fight the Molten Core procs aren't exactly frequent. Well snapshotted dots probably allow affliction to pull ahead in actual play, but demo is a lot more mobile and can pretty much always take AD whereas sometimes you might feel you really need the KJC talent for afflic. Regardless, it's very difficult to really react to procs when you aren't generating much fury, and don't have many MC procs coming in.

 

According to Zinnin and a few others over on mmochamp, the spec really picks up if you can hit the 15k (14873) haste breakpoint, as you get a lot more fury to react to procs with, and your molten core procs are more frequent due to the extra imps and shadowflame ticks.

 

I'll give demo a shot in flex after tomorrow's reset and perhaps even on a few heroics when we clear farm on thursday, but for anyone wanting to try it out, I believe the high haste build is the one you want to go for, as otherwise you find yourself fury and molten core starved when you need it.

 

Being DF starved is exactly the reason I *don't* go haste.  I feel that spread out, multi-target fights are where Demo shines.  More targets = more Doom ticks.  The more crit you have the better Wild Imp output you'll see over the course of the fight.  This leads not only to more Imps, but more DF *and* more MC procs.

 

Yes, the start is still shaky and it sucks having to spend about half of DS in caster form, but Demo picks up speed over time if you can correctly maintain your rotation and use the T16 2-piece bonus to its full potential.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Being DF starved is exactly the reason I *don't* go haste.  I feel that spread out, multi-target fights are where Demo shines.  More targets = more Doom ticks.  The more crit you have the better Wild Imp output you'll see over the course of the fight.  This leads not only to more Imps, but more DF *and* more MC procs.

 

Yes, the start is still shaky and it sucks having to spend about half of DS in caster form, but Demo picks up speed over time if you can correctly maintain your rotation and use the T16 2-piece bonus to its full potential.

 

I see your point, though I should really have said I was talking about single target demo. 

 

But let's discuss multi target then (I'm talking theoretically here still).

 

From more doom crits yes you get more imps, but to be fair the damage of imps has been slashed so I don't see that as being as beneficial as it used to be. With more haste you get an extra doom tick per cast as well as an extra tick of shadowflame so I think it could balance it out. Your main stat will be mastery so crit chance isn't going to be sky high, in my current gear if I go Mastery > Crit I still only end up at 8k crit maximum.

 

Haste also allows you to get off casts much faster, allowing you to squeeze in more before you have to move from stuff, which is a quality of life change considering how most fights have some degree of movement.

 

In any case, my first post was about demo single target, but I still believe haste can work in multi target encounters, especially something like Protectors or Paragons where you generally have at least 2 targets to drop HoG on if not more.

[Nyanchan 2]

I also dont think crit is good for demo, bursting meta damage with enough fury should provide a higher dps gain, so going mastery haste seems ideal to me. Still I think demo has to factor the procs a lot more in order to work correctly, mr robot recomends a crit build but i dunno why...

 

Really wish I could spec correctly to at least match the other 2 specs max dps (i hate affli so much). 

[Zagam 1,983]

I'm doing 8097 Haste > Mastery > Crit > Haste for my Demo/Destro build.  8097 is awesome because it hits an extra tick of Doom with Bloodlust/Tempus Repit.  It makes knowing when TR is up worthwhile.

[Nyanchan 2]

I'm doing 8097 Haste > Mastery > Crit > Haste for my Demo/Destro build.  8097 is awesome because it hits an extra tick of Doom with Bloodlust/Tempus Repit.  It makes knowing when TR is up worthwhile.

 

You are the genius lock, so im going to try that too, lol

 

Oh god it feels so slow... how crazy is the idea previously said here to go to the 14k ish haste brakpoint?

Edited October 23, 2013 by Nyanchan

[Zagam 1,983]

Personal preference.  I like faster paced things as well, but I also love seeing 120% increased damage in Metamorphosis form and 30% combat crit.

[Soulzar 42]

I'm doing 8097 Haste > Mastery > Crit > Haste for my Demo/Destro build.  8097 is awesome because it hits an extra tick of Doom with Bloodlust/Tempus Repit.  It makes knowing when TR is up worthwhile.

 

This is currently what I am forged too as well.

[Omaric 246]

I'm doing 8097 Haste > Mastery > Crit > Haste for my Demo/Destro build.  8097 is awesome because it hits an extra tick of Doom with Bloodlust/Tempus Repit.  It makes knowing when TR is up worthwhile.

 

You're still a Troll, yeah?  Why don't you reforge your haste to the point where you get an extra tick of Doom with Berserking thrown in there as well and get more crit?  How often are BL and TR up simultaneously anyway?  Generally Berserking is available whenever BL is available.

[Zagam 1,983]

It would only help in the opener and it would only get me another tick.  I picked that value because I was using 8094 for the Shadowflame and 8097 seemed pretty reasonable as an overall value.  What I meant by this value is I get the extra tick with EITHER Tempus Repit OR Bloodlust, not the combination of the two.  So it should happen far more often.  I would NEVER reforge for Bloodlust alone.

[Omaric 246]

Crouching Zagam, hidden information.

[Liquidsteel 279]

You are the genius lock, so im going to try that too, lol

 

Oh god it feels so slow... how crazy is the idea previously said here to go to the 14k ish haste brakpoint?

It's not crazy at all, it's a case of trading crit and most likely some mastery (so you lose some burst and damage whilst in meta) for a much smoother rate of fury generation thanks to faster casts and more molten core procs.

 

I've always preferred haste demo as two second shadowbolts drive me insane, and with AD talent and RPPM trinkets it can be difficult to react to procs when you don't have any fury/can't soulfire.

[Kazistrasz 216]

AKA, be in a 25 man.  This is simply not a viable strategy for 10 mans.

I've seen 10-man guilds with 3 paladins before. They suck, but they do end up clearing things eventually.

[Orei 2]

Haven't visited this forum in a while but, after viewing the last few pages, I have a couple tips/tricks(open for criticism).

In regards to the immolate spreading discussion: I always use havoc on CD to spread it. Immo off target havoc second off target then proceed with normal rotation on main target.(only done for opener on pandas for faster initial ember build.)

I've also had more success with Destro on normal mode thok. Just make sure I've burnt through all my embers during DS and lower stacks. Once you can no longer fit a cb in between interupts you should still be able to fit on immo and incin casts and just alternate with fb. Glyphed unending resolve timed around devo when you get procs to avoid ember capping.

Just my thoughts :)

[Omaric 246]

I don't know if I agree with the Protector opening.  For Klaxxi hell yes, because the damage done to off-targets doesn't matter.  On Protectors though, and especially in your opening, a Havoc'd Chaos Bolt will give you more damage throughout the fight.

 

Agree on Thok though, Destruction is an amazing spec this tier.

[Zagam 1,983]

Two comments:

 

Opener on Protectors MUST include Chaos Bolt.  Your Chaos Bolt will NEVER be more powerful than it is in the first 10-20 seconds of any fight.  You should always try to duplicate that effect by using Havoc. 

 

Normal Thok Destruction is quite viable much in the manner described.  His HP pool does not require a strategy involving 25 Acceleration stacks in Phase 1, so there's never a need to spell dance.  When you get to about 15-17 Acceleration stacks, his interrupts come every 1.7 seconds.  With latency, player human latency, and other factors, squeezing in anything is a chore.  In my attempts on Heroic Thok (of which Locky will vouch for as he has killed it), Destruction just isn't going to cut it over the other specs.  You also can't ask for Devotion Aura when you get a proc...same with Hand of Protection.  These effects should be used for healers to keep the raid alive, and asking for these CDs so you can use Chaos Bolt is both selfish and counterproductive.  As said before, it's perfectly reasonable to do on normal mode, but you might as well start practicing Demo or Affliction on normal mode now if you care to maximize your performance in Heroic.

[Omaric 246]

Zags, when are you using Unending Resolve for Thok?  Do you not use it for the interrupt protection?  Get super procs during high interrupt phase, pop Unending, go to town.

[Zagam 1,983]

I glyph it so I can use it every 2 minutes.  I try to line it up when I know Devo Aura is coming (it's like 7th in our cooldown rotation), but as Demo, I use it to unload Meta Soul Fires.  I've found just staying in Meta and spamming ToC and using Soul Fire during Fixate phase is easiest because ToC costs less leaving you in Metamorphosis longer thus reducing your need to cast.  I use UR typically to try to fish out a 2pc proc.

[Omaric 246]

Word.  I meant Destruction based on what Orie was asking though since you said it doesn't cut it against the others for you, but with proper CD's it isn't an issue.  Raid size must also be considered.  In 25 man you can stack more paladins.  We have a very nice window of interrupt protection in our raid due to all the Devo Auras, then throw in UR and you're golden.  :D

[Zagam 1,983]

I have no sympathy for 25 man raid comps.  You can bring 8 healers with 3 or 4 of them being Paladins and not worry about anything and have blanket interrupt protection for half of a bloody minute.  We have one Paladin, so that 6 seconds is rather lame.  Coupled with UR, wooo, 14 seconds. 

 

Thok 25 man has a CLEAR advantage over 10 man, just the same as I'm sure a fight like Galakras is easier with 10.  Then again, I haven't seen a hard enrage boss this tier yet, so I can't imagine any 25 mans dropping down to 4 healers to beat a hard enrage.  Maybe Garrosh?