Damien

Heroes of the Storm Valeera

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This thread is for comments about our Valeera guide for Heroes of the Storm.

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The cooldown for Cloak of Shadows in it's description on the ability page isn't the same as the one in the discussion below it (description says 18seconds and the discussion says 25seconds). Bit of a nitpick but thought I'd highlight it. 

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Hey ,

i have some remarks for your guides.
Why do you use VIGOR as your first talent?

Valeera isn´t a "laner" i think she is one of the worst laner :D 
so i think this talent is useless. SUBLETY (normal Build) or CRIPPLING POISON (with the slow you can use ambush out of stealth) is a better choise ;)

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I agree  Subtlety should be first talent always and not Vigor, it's a free 50 Energy without any quest and the 4 seconds stealth requirement can be ignored since you have to walk towards the victim and you don't use vanish close to them when you engage so you have the 4 seconds requirement always covered and compared to Vigor that offers 10 energy in 5 secs against the 50 of Subtlety the choice is pretty obvious and the quest part can be ignored because you complete it very late in the game since your main focus as Valeera isn't for sure going around to pick globes or break the stealth to kill the minion that give the globe and get deleted by any enemy passing by.

And at lv 7 Fatal Finesse provide 20 energy discount on the combo with a very easy quest on top of 60 damage added, and doesn't need 3 combo points or any specific requirement, Mutilate is also terrible if you use Q to dodge you move barely and is extremely detrimental in most situation (escape , chase , gap close) it should be put as Not recommended for sure.

I can also say that in all the games i played those 2 talents are picked by 90% of the people (Subtlety and Fatal Finesse) regardless of the build that they do and are in my opinion essential to play Valeera.

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Hey all! 

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and feedback on the builds. One of the main reasons why detailed descriptions of each talent haven't yet been posted is because of how diverse Valeera's kit truly is. I have been putting a lot of though into her builds/playstyles and would hate to immediately shut down a potential option because another one "appears" to be the best.

In regards to Vigor vs Subtlety, in the full run down of talents and descriptions (to hopefully be posted later tonight or tomorrow) I actually have changed Subtlety to "recommended" as well. Not because I think it outclasses Vigor as a talent, but because it offers another playstyle to Valeera's kit. The build Sm0kEzZz has linked above is yet another example of this diversity (which I think we can all agree is refreshing!)

Now although Valeera is a terrible laner, which I have already mentioned in her "Role in the Meta" section, she can still VERY quickly accumulate the globes required to finish the quest portion of Vigor. She can gather globes while Stealthed when near an ally who picks one up, this includes Mercenary camps, Minion waves, and objectives. This does not ruin her elusiveness or effectiveness as a Stealthed Hero at all. And although I agree that the Energy regeneration of Subtlety is great, it isn't always awarded. Valeera may sometimes need to Vanish and cast an opener right away mid fight (sometimes two or three times during a teamfight). It ultimately comes down to player preference and how they want to carry Valeera.

Although I tend to take win rates of specific abilities with a grain of salt, at the time of this writing both Subtlety and Vigor are sitting at the exact same win rate on HOTSlogs. Not to mention Mutilate actually has the highest win rate of the Level 7 talents (although fatal finesse appears to be twice as popular). I'm not quoting this information to prove one talent is definitively "better" than the other, just to point out that they each fill different roles and playstyles that one player might prefer over the other.

With that said, keep the feedback coming! I love meaningful discussions about Heroes/builds as it is honestly one of my favorite parts about this game. Have fun hunting down those squishies!

-MK

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A screw subtlety it removes the option of engaging without stealth while still getting decent energy regen. 

Edited by Bjorn

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After trying a few different builds, I've decided that I like something like this:

http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/valeera#kCrj

Level 1:

Vigor: I find this to be situational depending on what map you're playing. If it's something like Infernal Shrines or Garden of Terror then you should be able to complete the quest pretty quickly if your team is cooperative and supportive. Without a supportive team it's really hard to complete the quest, and makes it almost useless late game.

Subtlety: This seems to be best talent for me to maintain energy while bursting a squishy target after opening with Cheap Shot or Garrote. Most of the time the 4 second requirement isn't a problem, and even using Vanish mid fight for a quick Cheap Shot or Ambush is usually just to finish the target.

Combat Readiness: I initially read this talent wrong, and now it seems even worse. Requiring that I cast eviscerate to block basic attacks is way too situational for me. I'd much rather just generate more energy for more burst.

Crippling Poison: This feels almost like a waste of a talent to me, since Cheap Shot and Death From Above are in the kit, along with whatever cc your team has. Again, I'd much rather just generate more energy.

Level 4:

Relentless Strikes: Since Sinister Strike is usually my main combo point generator, this is an easy pick for me. Reducing the energy cost significantly changes your rotation and how well you can burst. If you're curious how, give it a shot in "Try Me" mode.

Hemorrhage: I feel like this is too situational. It can be great for bursting down squishy targets if you don't have to worry about getting focused, but feels too narrow.

Initiative: This is a really easy way to eviscerate your target quickly, but it has to compete with Relentless Strikes. I personally can't pick this over Relentless Strikes.

Would Poison: I can see using this against a two healer comp, but again it has to compete with Relentless Strikes.

Level 7:

Mutilate: Almost always another go-to talent for me. Doubles the damage of my main ability but reduces the range, which usually isn't a problem unless I have issues chasing someone, which would then depend on my team comp.

Fatal Finesse: The energy cost reduction makes this a very attractive talent, but I find it difficult to complete the quest unless the enemy team has enough melee.

Slice and Dice: This feels like a great talent but it's too situational for me. Most of the time, when I pick this talent, I have problems keeping my target in place, and therefore can't capitalize on the attack speed bonus.

Assassinate: This is also somewhat situational, as it would depend on whether or not I want to use Sinister Strike to disengage from fights. I usually don't like using Ambush since enemies can just walk away and I'm not positive if it will actually kill them.

Level 10:

Smoke Bomb: In my experience I find this to be the better of the two in most situations. Being unrevealable and gaining 25% armor for 5 seconds can be significant, and being able to attack while inside it is great.

Cloak of Shadows: Another situational talent that primarily depends on whether or not the enemy team has lots of stuns or casters.

Level 13:

Elusiveness: Not a bad talent and is generally a safe pick.

Death From Above: A gap closer if you're having chasing issues.

Blind: An amazing situational talent I find myself picking more and more for heroes like Kharazim, Tychus, Hammer, Zul'jin or Valeera that become effectively useless without their basic attacks. Two basic attack heroes on the enemy team makes this an easy pick for me.

Strangle: A situational talent similar to blind if the enemy team happens to have too many mages.

Level 16:

Seal Fate: Usually a go-to pick for me to capitalize on Cheap Shot into Sinister Strike. I find this to be the quickest way for me to gank.

Rupture: A bit of a situational talent if you find yourself focusing the same target, like Malfurion or Gul'dan.

Expose Armor: This talent doesn't look bad, but it has to compete with Seal Fate and Thisle Tea, and you need to guarantee capitalizing on the 25% extra damage.

Thistle Tea: I love this, but it's really hard for me personally to use. If you can time it right, you can deal significant burst damage.

Level 20:

Adrenaline Rush: I have yet to actually use this. It seems like it has potential, but most of the time when I use smoke bomb I want to kill and get out of it quickly to avoid the inevitable AoE. Nobody stays in it for very long anyways, and it's often used as an escape by me and other Valeera's that I see.

Enveloping Shadows: Not a terrible talent if the enemy team has good casting range and damage, but a bit situational as it depends solely on entering stealth.

Nightslayer: I love this talent because most of the time I'm trying to get back into stealth. Being able to engage, combo, stealth, re-engage and combo again is really powerful.

Cold Blood: This might be the best way to burst down squishy targets depending on your build, but it's really hard for me to actually use it properly.

 

I wasn't planning on writing so much, but I started with one talent and just kept going.

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Just another voice recommending Vigor.  I find myself using Vanish a significant amount of time in the middle of fights, while chasing, and after initiating from brush (I'm a huge fan of Nightslayer for those reasons as well).  In every one of those situations Subtlety would do absolutely nothing while Vigor gives both passive energy regen and a higher cap.

Even in situations where you do have the time to wait on Subtlety, Vigor isn't useless.  You can still combo from stealth effectively.  I personally prefer a talent that's always useful rather than one that is optimal in a situation I'm already heavily favored in (if I get to stealth walk up and combo someone I'm already doing good) vs situations that I'm not (ie when I'm repeatedly reengaging, skirmishing, or get revealed on the way in).

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Let's just pile onto the vigor train, shall we?

Others have already enumerated the scenarios in which the no-strings attached regen might be better, and those are all true. but let's not sleep on the increased energy cap either; in any fight that starts from full energy (read: almost all of them) this is effectively 20 *instant* energy regen. meaning that even when subtlety actually goes off, you only gain 20 energy over vigor - this means a fight only needs to last 15 seconds before subtlety is outpaced by vigor.

That's *assuming* you always engage from stealth and are never revealed by aoe, scouting drones, oracle or you just want to engage from out of stealth because 8 seconds without vanish is too dangerous. In any of those cases, subtlety offers nothing and is already behind by 20 energy at the very start of the fight.

the main thing going for subtlety is the lack of a quest requirement - for this reason I often pick it up when quick matching, really just because I'm feeling lazy and subtlety is fine. in a competitive situation though, 20 globes is very easy to hustle and complete early on most maps - "not being a laner" having nothing to do with it, of course, as any Zeratul knows that constant rotation is key to maximizing orb collection.

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On 1/28/2017 at 2:11 AM, Bjorn said:

A screw subtlety it removes the option of engaging without stealth while still getting decent energy regen. 

Yeah, the fact that this talent could be completely useless at the vital points of the game does mean it's a bit more of a situational pick, especially depending on the enemy team. If an ETC is sitting there constantly breaking your vanishes, you've just wasted a talent.

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On 2/1/2017 at 1:39 AM, Hrimfisk said:

I wasn't planning on writing so much, but I started with one talent and just kept going.

Feedback like this is great. It's a big wall of text, but it's a wall of text that will help us to further assess our own descriptions/choices and see what you guys think about them. Thanks for helping to contribute :)

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On 2/2/2017 at 11:30 AM, Guest Vigor vs Subtlety said:

I personally prefer a talent that's always useful rather than one that is optimal in a situation I'm already heavily favored in (if I get to stealth walk up and combo someone I'm already doing good) vs situations that I'm not (ie when I'm repeatedly reengaging, skirmishing, or get revealed on the way in).

This is pretty much my thinking when choosing L1 talents too. I take Vigor because I know it will always help me, regardless of who I play against, whether I misplay, whether they get lucky, whatever.

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On 2/3/2017 at 0:30 AM, Voltorocks said:

Others have already enumerated the scenarios in which the no-strings attached regen might be better, and those are all true. but let's not sleep on the increased energy cap either; in any fight that starts from full energy (read: almost all of them) this is effectively 20 *instant* energy regen. meaning that even when subtlety actually goes off, you only gain 20 energy over vigor - this means a fight only needs to last 15 seconds before subtlety is outpaced by vigor.

This is an interesting point too, actually. I suppose depending on whether you are playing QP/Ranked and what level/tier you are at, fights have different lengths and such, so you could also choose based on that. Team comps as well. If you're for some reason playing against double support, triple tank, you're probably going to spend a while sitting in that fight each time. 

On 2/3/2017 at 0:30 AM, Voltorocks said:

the main thing going for subtlety is the lack of a quest requirement - for this reason I often pick it up when quick matching, really just because I'm feeling lazy and subtlety is fine

Laziness is the best motivator!

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4 hours ago, positiv2 said:

Should be 140 +4% per level.

I'm not doubting you, but out of curiosity, where does this come from? I don't see it in game or the release notes.

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I couldn't find it either, so I went ahead and got values for a few levels in the testing room.
The following text is useful only if you want to try it yourself or in case you want to find out values for more skills. If not, you can stop reading here :P
Level 29 has 437 damage without any talents. Level 30 has 455 damage without any talents. The formula is (multiplieryour level * base damage), so to get the multiplier value, you have to divide a level by its preceding level, in this case you divide 455/437 for highest accuracy. 455/437 equals 1.0411..., but since most of skills have 1.04 (4%) multiplier, I rounded the number. Then, you have to get the base value. You get it by dividing a damage on level by the multiplier to the power of the level. In this case, it's 455/(1.04)30, which equals 140.28 (rounded value).
So, the values I gave you are approximations.

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On 2/12/2017 at 2:21 AM, Blainie said:

Feedback like this is great. It's a big wall of text, but it's a wall of text that will help us to further assess our own descriptions/choices and see what you guys think about them. Thanks for helping to contribute :)

Thanks for the response I'm glad you liked my post. I always enjoy helping the community. It's been a few weeks and I've played quite a few more games with Valeera, so I think it's a good time to share my findings. I decided not to edit my original post so that we have a before and after.

Lv1

Vigor: There are a few situations that I would much prefer to use Subtlety, but for the most part Vigor does a lot of work, and completing it by the 8 minute mark can be pretty easy with proper rotations on 3 lane maps.

Subtlety: Really useful on maps like Braxis Holdout and the single lane brawls where you can't get many globes.

Lv4

Relentless Strikes: None of the other talents compare to this one for me. The reduction is so crucial to the way I burst that it's impossible not to take it.

Lv7

Mutilate: Burst enemy squishies, which is so much easier with more cc on the team. Fun day.

Fatal Finesse: Acquire quick combo points with enough melee enemies. Also good for keeping the range of Sinister Strike.

Lv10

Smoke Bomb: Going toe to toe with enemy heroes in choke points and team fights.

Cloak of Shadows: Damage over time is so annoying when you're trying to stealth.

Lv13

Elusiveness: Awesome for getting to team fights, chasing enemy heroes and dodging aoe.

Death From Above: I always hate it when I take this talent because I would rather just engage with cheap shot.

Blind: One of her best talents. 90% of the time I engage with cheap shot, and the only time I don't take this talent is if there aren't enough attack-based heroes on the enemy team.

Lv17

Seal Fate: MORE damage for sinister strike and an extra combo point. Burst damage heaven.

Rupture: ONLY available if blind is not taken. Otherwise garrote competes with cheap shot, and you want your whole rotation buffed, not just half of it.

Expose Armor: For comps with tons of sustain, like double tank and/or double support.

Thistle Tea: I just suck with this.

Lv20

Adrenaline Rush: This gets insane if you can manage to keep the enemy team in your smoke for at least 3 seconds. ETC ult would combo pretty nicely with this.

Enveloping Shadows: This is amazing if the enemy has lots of DoTs from a hero like Lunara.

Nightslayer: Cheap shot more often. Need I say more?

Cold Blood: If you can manage to use this properly, it deletes squishies with the sinister strike build.

 

EDIT: On a side note I looked at my profile and found some surprising stats:

 

Edited by Hrimfisk

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3 hours ago, Guest Terabellum said:

[embed=/hots/talent-calculator/valeera#l2Xz] Try this and give me your feedback. I do quite well with it.

I'd recommend using our talent calculator to create your build and then using the link at the bottom to share it - I can't see what you're trying to show us!

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On 3/2/2017 at 7:41 AM, Hrimfisk said:

Cold Blood: If you can manage to use this properly, it deletes squishies with the sinister strike build.

This especially is HUGE vs. any kind of squishy support or DD. It makes Li-Ming even easier to kill than she already is. I absolutely love using it, I just wish it wasn't on the same level as reduced stealth!

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I feel like Valeera has so many talent options that I never go with boosting one specific ability, this will only hinder your versatility.I generally go this http://www.icy-veins.com/heroes/talent-calculator/valeera#24.0!13.1.3..  At 7 I take fatal finesse if I need more waveclear, Slice and Dice if not, at 13 I take Death from above if I really need a gapcloser, elusiveness if i dont and at 20 I take Cold Blood if they have really squishy champions: Chromie, Kael'Thas, Li-Ming, Nightslayer if they have more tanks and fighters.

Her 16 level talents seem the weakest, I took expose armor because it's simpler to use than the others.

Edited by Fransoa

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10 hours ago, Fransoa said:

I feel like Valeera has so many talent options that I never go with boosting one specific ability, this will only hinder your versatility.I generally go this http://www.icy-veins.com/heroes/talent-calculator/valeera#24.0!13.1.3..  At 7 I take fatal finesse if I need more waveclear, Slice and Dice if not, at 13 I take Death from above if I really need a gapcloser, elusiveness if i dont and at 20 I take Cold Blood if they have really squishy champions: Chromie, Kael'Thas, Li-Ming, Nightslayer if they have more tanks and fighters.

Her 16 level talents seem the weakest, I took expose armor because it's simpler to use than the others.

Most of the time you want to commit to a single ability (or a playstyle), especially if you already can guess what will counter the opponent's team the best. If you are unsure, your approach can be better, but that is rarely the case from my experience.

Luckily level 7 talents are great and any can be chosen. Which one do you choose the most often, from the two you mentioned?

I'd say that Thistle TeaThistle Tea is both easier and more powerful, unless your team has heroes with burst much higher than yours, that you can rely on, which is not that common, sadly. Thistle TeaThistle Tea is also more versatile and does not require you to stack combo points for EviscerateEviscerate in order to take advantage of the talent.

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