Starym

Mobs Scaling with Item Level Explained

Sign in to follow this  

25 posts in this topic

JFEEaB3.jpg

Watcher explains the logic behind the mechanic, how it will be tweaked and why it wasn't in the patch notes.

Update: there was a followup post that explained the three major changes that have gone live for the mechanic.

___________________________________________________________

As players have noticed, 7.2 brought with it a huge change that wasn't quite mentioned in the patch notes, namely that creatures now scaled not only with your level, but with item level as well. Game Director Ion "Watcher" Hazzikostas steeped in and confirmed this was indeed intended, but also took some time to explain why the mechanic was implemented, why it wasn't mentioned in the patch notes and clarified that it may be a little too steep at the moment. It's a lot to read, but well worth it, as it seems the devs are paving the way for what WoW will look like in many future expansions, going for a very open-world scaled to your power level environment, that is so very popular in the single player RPG genre.

Blizzard LogoWatcher (source)

Apologies for the delay in getting information out on this - our initial focus was on putting out other patch-day fires.

Yes, this reflects a deliberate change, but it's also not working exactly as we intended. The scaling may be too steep, and the fact that unequipping a piece of gear can ever be helpful is a bug in the system. We'll be looking into making changes to correct this in the very near future.

Power progression is an essential part of the WoW endgame, and the last thing we want is to undermine that. We stressed the importance of that progression when discussing how the level-scaling system worked in Legion around the time of the expansion's launch, and explained why we then had no plans to scale foes' power based on gear. But as we've watched Legion unfold, we've come to observe some side-effects of our endgame content plan and the associated rewards structure that made us reconsider.

We've never had the initial outdoor world content stay relevant for this long in an expansion before. By the end of Mists of Pandaria, for example, the mantid of Dread Wastes that had once been reasonable foes were completely trivial. They'd basically evaporate if a raid-geared player looked in their general direction. But there wasn't much reason besides achievements or completionism to revisit the Klaxxi dailies once Isle of Thunder was out or, later on, Timeless Isle. And the enemies in those later zones could be tuned to a proportionally more challenging baseline difficulty.

But in Legion, while the new content in Broken Shore is the focus of 7.2, and we've made sure that the core outdoor rewards (both dropped and from Nethershards) are superior to the rep-related rewards from the original factions, the intent is not for the Broken Shore to completely replace the rest of the game. You'll still go back to the other Broken Isles zones for emissaries, Legion Assaults (coming next week!), Order campaign quests, improved world quest rewards, and more. And as 7.1 and 7.1.5 progressed, we could see that even with Nighthold gear the pacing of combat was getting a bit silly - what would happen once new content made that level of gear more common, and once the Tomb raid pushed limits even higher?

To reiterate, power progression is an essential part of the WoW endgame. We absolutely want you to feel overpowered as you return to steamroll content that once was challenging. But there's a threshold beyond which the game's core mechanics start to break down. When someone trying to wind up a 2.5sec cast can't get a nuke off against a quest target before another player charges in and one-shots it, that feels broken. And even for the Mythic-geared bringer of death and destruction, when everything dies nearly instantly, you spend more time looting corpses than you do making them. You spend an order of magnitude longer traveling to a quest location than you do killing the quest target. You stop using your core class abilities and instead focus on spamming instants to tap mobs as quickly as possible before they die.

Our goal is basically to safeguard against that degenerate extreme. We tune outdoor combat for a fresh 110 around a 12-15sec duration against a standard non-elite, non-boss enemy. It's great for gear, over the course of an expansion to cut that time in half, or even by two-thirds. But once you get down to a duration of one or two global cooldowns, the game just wasn't built to support that as the norm. (Note that this is an current-content endgame concern; running legacy content for completion/transmog/etc. purposes is a totally different story.)

The intent of our change in 7.2 was to smooth out that progression curve a bit, not flatten it out, and certainly never to invert it. If you get a great set of item upgrades that make you 5% stronger, maybe the world gets 1-2% tougher. Perhaps instead of getting 400% stronger over the course of the expansion relative to the outdoor world, you only get 250% stronger. But you should always be getting more powerful in relative terms, and upgrades should always matter. From some reactions so far, it sounds like we may be off on that tuning. And as noted above, the fact that unequipping items can ever be helpful is a bug that we'll be investigating and fixing.

Finally, there's the natural question of why we didn't patch-note this. It was not to be deceptive; we know it's impossible to hide a change from millions of players. But the system was meant to feel largely transparent and subtle, just like level-scaling does if you don't stop and really think about it, and so we did want players to first experience the change organically. Your feedback and reactions and first impressions of the system are more useful in this particular case when they are not skewed by the experience of logging in and actively trying to spot the differences. Thank you for that, and I look forward to continued discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eh. Not sure I agree. It does seem badly tuned at the moment... I had weird moments on on the Broken Shore where I was traipsing along killing without a care in the world, then targeting something else and getting roflstomped.

Then again I considered it badly tuned at 110 anyway. You're 109, got a pace going, working your way through a quest, then you ding... and suddenly you're fighting for dear life. And likely losing. The difficulty jump is pretty nasty.

It seems kind of rude to just throw it in without warning us... and moreover, without testing. This should have been on the PTR and patch notes, and feedback considered before deciding to take it live.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, solitha said:

Eh. Not sure I agree. It does seem badly tuned at the moment... I had weird moments on on the Broken Shore where I was traipsing along killing without a care in the world, then targeting something else and getting roflstomped.

Then again I considered it badly tuned at 110 anyway. You're 109, got a pace going, working your way through a quest, then you ding... and suddenly you're fighting for dear life. And likely losing. The difficulty jump is pretty nasty.

It seems kind of rude to just throw it in without warning us... and moreover, without testing. This should have been on the PTR and patch notes, and feedback considered before deciding to take it live.

I agree, but they did acknowledge it isn't well tuned atm, so hopefully it'll improve soon.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A person in my raid group noted that it's not just at max level either. He can see the changes on his 100s as he equips and unequips gear. I rather dislike that.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You implemented it - Fine. You failed at balancing this thing at the start - also Fine. The One thing that is not explained why people who do not play in DPS specks must Suffer? Why restoration Druid or Holy priest must suffer for that decision? 12 - 15 second - i doubt that there were included Tanks and Healers... If this is a 12 second fight for a current DMG dealer with average ilvl 880. Then Resto/Holy will spend one minute to kill a single useless mob. 1 min to kill a flower that spawned from herbalism...

That change forces you to spend double or triple time on your world quests, just because someone failed to correctly generate item levels and scaling. I personally believe that there is more ways to increase difficulty at the end game, than this.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, this is bullshit. Why should i progress with my item-level if i get no benefit against enemies from it?

WoW lives (and dies) with farming items/ressources. Removing the advantage from high-end-equipment will ruin all other releated components of the game...

Completely! Fail! Blizzard!

Edited by Floristix
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure how i feel about this. Yes i like a challenge, but this doesn't seem like a great change imho, it defeats the whole purpose of an mmo and gearing up, which is to be more powerful and feel stronger. 

For those who don't raid or mythic+, whether mains or alts, there is now zero point in gearing up toons. Gearing up is to make it easier to kill stuff, to make your toon more powerful, and this totally negates that. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's the point in getting good gear then? For example i invested 1000h into a character (gearing) and i need the same time to complete a World Quest as fast as a fresh 110 newbie?

First i could take 1-2 mobs with my boomkin on low gear, then at better gear i can pull a lot of mobs and down them. Now its the same b%&@!$it

Blizzard STAHP PLZ!

 

Edited by Dvanom
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People are losing their heads over this but what do you expect in the type of content that we have in Legion? World Quests are meant to be relevant throughout the expansion and we're not in a strict Timeless Isle or Tanaan Jungle type scenario where they can just increase the HP/Dmg of that subset of mobs.


His argument stands and the reasons for doing this stand as well.

What would you have them do while still keeping the base Legion zones and World Quests relevant?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your better gear lets you do better in dungeons and raids.

It made no sense for world content to be completely trivialized mere hours after hitting Lv. 110 (considering Mythic dungeons give 865 along with LFR giving 855-865 gear, with ToS LFR giving -even- higher level gear, you could hit the point where world content was completely trivialized very quickly.)

There is a difference between "progressing your character so you can feel stronger" and "removing all difficulty by completely overgearing world content."

What I don't agree with is scaling applying to Lvs. 98-109, it should only apply at max level. I also think something should be done for healers so they don't have to go dps or take forever to kill world content. They took the time to try and increase healer dps in Legion so they could do world content properly, this change seems counter-productive in that regard.

Edited by Ammako
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't object to the change accept for exactly this.  Drops need to increase with Ilvl accordingly then as well, be it gathering nodes, skinned reward, loot dropped, etc..   Otherwise, mats will become scarce. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do the rewards and loot scale, too? Or is this yet another way to make the already awefull daily grinds even more anoying?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't get some of these comments tbh, did you not read the whole post? Increasing your ilvl aka getting better gear WILL make it easier to kill stuff outdoors, it just won't make it as easy as it does now. You'll still get the same benefit in dungeons and raids (the REAL reason people gear up) and you'll (more slowly) improve on killing things outdoors as well. Am I missing something?

A real good point is the healer perspective though, as I don't think tanks will have any issues with this since their DPS is pretty good already. But on the other hand I'm not sure how many healer players don't have decent DPS offspec gear already, and if that gear is lower ilev then it all works out anyway.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Starym said:

A real good point is the healer perspective though, as I don't think tanks will have any issues with this since their DPS is pretty good already. But on the other hand I'm not sure how many healer players don't have decent DPS offspec gear already, and if that gear is lower ilev then it all works out anyway.

As a Healer, why should I be forced to go into DPS, which I hate, to take down mobs? I realize healers will always kill at a slower rate than DPS, but it shouldn't be 10 times as long. On top of that, my DPS spec has a high item level just because it shares so much in common with my healing spec. But I don't DPS, I heal. So now, in order to play content I have to learn an entire new spec that I've neglected on purpose in order to progress. I imagine many people would be upset if they were forced to take a specific spec in order to do content. As a beastmaster hunter, how would you feel if you now have to go survival in order to quest? As a Resto Shaman, I now have to essentially go Enh because Ele isn't nearly as good. But I don't want to be a melee DPS. It's just forcing us into specific things that aren't exactly even.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Stitches said:

As a Healer, why should I be forced to go into DPS, which I hate, to take down mobs? I realize healers will always kill at a slower rate than DPS, but it shouldn't be 10 times as long. On top of that, my DPS spec has a high item level just because it shares so much in common with my healing spec. But I don't DPS, I heal. So now, in order to play content I have to learn an entire new spec that I've neglected on purpose in order to progress. I imagine many people would be upset if they were forced to take a specific spec in order to do content. As a beastmaster hunter, how would you feel if you now have to go survival in order to quest? As a Resto Shaman, I now have to essentially go Enh because Ele isn't nearly as good. But I don't want to be a melee DPS. It's just forcing us into specific things that aren't exactly even.

 

I'm mainly a tank(demon hunter tank to be specific, with a brewmaster monk and blood DK alts) But I have a holy paladin that's 10 item levels lower than my main which is at 894-896 ilvl depending on spec as I write this.

 

On my paladin, I ONLY like holy. I don't like ret, I don't like prot. Which is why I agree with you and feel super bad for all main healers out there. When I go on my paladin do world stuff, I feel incredibly weak. Because killing stuff takes forever. And now it will take even longer. I don't want to have to play ret on a HOLY paladin just to do world quests.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to mirror the sentiments/concerns of the previous few posts, regarding tanks and healers having a much more difficult time with this ilvl scaling.  I have a DPS main, and it always felt very satisfying and positive to have world quests become easier to kill.  It made the game much more enjoyable to run "murder train" through a section that used to be difficult, when I was a lower ilvl.  World quests are only meant to be progression content to a newly minted 110; it isn't supposed to remain progression content throughout the expansion.  Part of me wants to like this change, and I understand the reason for this initiative, but the end result is that the daily grind that the vast majority of players were already complaining about just became much more of a time-sink than it already was (which, in turn, equates to much more stress on actual progression players, who are trying to remain competitive).

 

Now multiply that for tanks and healers...  Trying to complete world quests as a Holy Priest/Paladin or a Prot Warrior/Paladin took about 2-3x a long as a DPS class before this patch.  With this change, tanks and healers will fall behind or be forced to play specs that they have no interest in playing (that aren't fun for them).  Perhaps if there were more alternative WQs that focused around objectives, rather than killing mobs, this concern would be alleviated.

Edited by Ancalagon
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dunno I usually stay Holy on my pala when wquesting and have no issues, all i have to do i swap 1 talent for crusader strike and I'm all good with world quests. Sure it's slower than ret, but not by that much and I don't even have a particularly high ilev either. I can understand that it can be annoying with other classes healer specs tho, but it's ALWAYS been like that, just ask someone that played healer in vanilla and they will laugh at you and your complaints today :D

But yea I didn't mean to diminish healer issues with this change, I just think people in general are taking it waaaay out of proportion. After today's fixes it should get better for everyone tho.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Stitches said:

As a Healer, why should I be forced to go into DPS, which I hate, to take down mobs? I realize healers will always kill at a slower rate than DPS, but it shouldn't be 10 times as long. On top of that, my DPS spec has a high item level just because it shares so much in common with my healing spec. But I don't DPS, I heal. So now, in order to play content I have to learn an entire new spec that I've neglected on purpose in order to progress. I imagine many people would be upset if they were forced to take a specific spec in order to do content. As a beastmaster hunter, how would you feel if you now have to go survival in order to quest? As a Resto Shaman, I now have to essentially go Enh because Ele isn't nearly as good. But I don't want to be a melee DPS. It's just forcing us into specific things that aren't exactly even.

Healers were never meant to be damage dealers. I could understand if you had to swap an entire set of int gear because you need strength for you DPS spec, but you dont. Simply change specs and go. If you decide to quest as a healer, you have decided to take the decreased ability to do damage and have to deal with slower kill times. I would be pissed if healers could simply go out into the world, kill things as quickly as my hunter, and never die because they can simply spam heal themselves. My opinion, you quest as a healer, you deal with the time, so no sympathy there. All of my healers have a few points in there DPS weapon and I quest with them as DPS just fine. Nice change of pace, in fact, from when I am healing dungeons, raids, and PVP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do agree with the 98-109 level issue however. Especially for all of the investment made for twinks by some. That 101 gear at ilvl 830+ is insanely expensive, and now worthless.

Edited by Sharknad0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry but i must say that I don't understand all this problem over doing open world content as healer, you want to kill stuff switch to dps, it's easy and free of charge, you you want to heal stuff, go pvp or do dungeons or raids, unless you want to pvp on open world, but in that case i don't think the mobs scaling will be the issue there, if it is, you're doing pvp wrong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 29/03/2017 at 5:00 AM, Dantalian said:

You implemented it - Fine. You failed at balancing this thing at the start - also Fine. The One thing that is not explained why people who do not play in DPS specks must Suffer? Why restoration Druid or Holy priest must suffer for that decision? 12 - 15 second - i doubt that there were included Tanks and Healers... If this is a 12 second fight for a current DMG dealer with average ilvl 880. Then Resto/Holy will spend one minute to kill a single useless mob. 1 min to kill a flower that spawned from herbalism...

That change forces you to spend double or triple time on your world quests, just because someone failed to correctly generate item levels and scaling. I personally believe that there is more ways to increase difficulty at the end game, than this.

Actually what you're saying is basically this: I'm a DPSer but i can't tank those strong mobs and can't heal neither, damn it blizard. I'm a tanker, i can tank very well, but i take forever to kill those mobs, damn it blizzard. I'm a healer, i can heal very well but i can't tank neither do DPS, damn it blizzard. Before you say a thing like this, you should look all the options there is like actually changing to a DPS spec if you wish to do DPS. It would've been actually pretty nonsense a healer do as much DPS as a DPS does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Starym
      While we may already have seen some Uldir solo kills, the final boss of the last expansion is still quite a challenge for just one player and there have been a couple of kills recently. As you'd imagine, the Paladin one is by none other than Rextroy in his Protection form, but the first kill was done by FallingDarkness/Shoot:
      As usual, Rextroy has a long explanation accompanying his kill, including the tidbit he was doing 12k DPS during the fight:
       
      You can also check out our recent interview with Rextroy about his specific tactics, done just before he was unbanned.
    • By Stan
      The latest blue posts roundup includes Ion's stance on World Firsts as some members of the community thought he was contradicting himself after the latest Q&A, the use of third-party platforms for community outreach, and WoW subscriptions.
      Ion's Stance on World Firsts
      Some players misconstrued Ion's statement about World Firsts after the Q&A and Community Manager Ythisens provided details about what he actually meant.
      The World First Race is a community-created thing that became popular. It only affects less than a 0.1% of players and they design encounters to provide best experience, not with the World First Race in mind.
      Blizzard (Source)
      So apparently today Ion said the team loves watching the World First race. 

      But yesterday in the Q&A, Ion said that the dev team doesn't care about the World First race, so if the Battle of Dazar'alor ends up with different final bosses for each faction, it doesn't matter, and it'll be up to players to decide what "World First" actually matters. (And yes, I'm also aware he said that they may end up making it so all the bosses will end up the same order regardless of faction, but they aren't sure yet)

      I don't even care about World First, but isn't that like, seriously contradictory? You either care or you don't care about World First, but apparently Ion both cares and doesn't care about it in a 12 hour time frame of one another???
      We love that the community rallies around World Firsts as this is a community created thing that became so popular, but when he says that we don't care about it he's just saying that we don't design with it in mind. It's a very niche thing as well as a niche type of player. We're talking about a less than .1% of players that even set foot inside the current raid tier at Mythic level that would even be competing for these World Firsts. 

      Like Ion said in the Q&A we design encounters in the way that we feel would be the best experience. We might be wrong sometimes but that's the goal and we try to hit that.
      World of Warcraft Forums
      Blizzard uses third-party platforms to reach out to as many players as possible. Not everybody uses the official forums, some players prefer to use Twitter, Reddit, and other platforms.
      Blizzard (Source)
      Live QnA on Reddit, the Live QnA on twitch. Most the questions being taken from Twitter.
      Can you please stop using these third party platforms for your community outreach? They are failing you. Why? Because they aren't actually the issues players seem to actually care about.
      There is no guarantee on these third parties that the people actually play the game. The forums they need to have an active sub. I have noticed everytime you have one of these QnAs or Live Streams they are never actually the issues people are talking about on the forums.
      And seeing that most people don't seem happy with your communication as of late why not cut out the middle man third party and go straight to your player base?
      There's literally a sticky at the top of the forums where we asked you to submit questions for the Q&A.
      https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769766993
      I saw that but why take any questions from Twitter then?
      Not everyone uses the forums. Forums are a very small percentage of any user base, even WoW. 

      There are some folks that use say Twitter for instance that refuse to come here, but still play the game. There are even folks submitting questions on Facebook that don't like either Twitter or the forums. Just like some players on the forums dislike Twitter, there are folks who have the opposite opinion.
      My job is partly in customer service, so similar to Ythisens.
      I'm not in Customer Service. 

      I think there are valid things to criticize us for and in fact I support and encourage that, however it's pretty silly when someone makes a post about something that is stickied on the same page they had to visit to make their post. The same sticky that is there before every single Q&A since we've had a Q&A.

      I wasn't being snarky at all. It was more of a "come on now -.-".
      The difference Yth is that the people who make the effort to come to the forums to submit questions/complaints/etc. are the ones who feel strongly enough to make that effort in the first place.
      Then that implies that you're saying the questions on say Twitter should be less valued when they're just as much of a player as you are. They could go through the same effort to write a tweet. I get the sentiment that on the forums you're able to articulate your statement/question better, however if you can't boil it down to a simpler question then your question is gonna have a hard time getting into the Q&A. Question cards can only be so long unfortunately >.>
      Back in the day we had wowgmfeedback-us@blizzard.com to provide feedback about GM/CMs or even being able to email to a supervisor directly to its personal blizzard e-mail.
      That still exists and is right here in the thread titled "Welcome - Please Read!":
      What if I would like to submit feedback on posts from Blizzard employees but not post on the forums as call outs are against the rules?
      If you have any sort of issue or feedback about a Blizzard employee's posts then you can submit that via email at wowcmfeedback@blizzard.com.
      Did the OP consider that maybe they got an even higher number of questions from Twitter or other social media platforms?
      We actually do get more questions on sites like Twitter than on the forums as in pure volume. I wouldn't say the quality is better, but there is quite a bit more there. 
      No one should have to put up with that under any circumstance, it is enough to drive a person to the brink of insanity.
      I cope by not letting the turtles make it to the water.
      There's a sticky that also has Twitter updates pasted in it as well lol.
      What's funny is that post exists because we're aware folks on the forums dislike Twitter. 

      For those that haven't seen it yet, I try to maintain a thread where I post updates on the forums that are said from Warcraftdevs on Twitter. You can check that out here:
      https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20767587764?page=1

      Also if you have suggestions on how to improve that please let me know. I try to grab them when I can but sometimes I do miss them (speaking of which I just noticed I need to repost some things there). I've been throwing up hotfixes as well in there since folks requested that.
      Ohh quit with the regurgitated "Not everyone uses the Forums" line.
      People play the game and "refuse" to use the official forums? Sounds like a personal problem "They" need to get over. Twitter is not even third party, they are their own party. You by far are the worst at understanding best business practices. You sound like a newly hired TSR.
      You may not like it but I'm being honest with you. Forums are not the most popular destination when it comes to where the game is discussed. I think forums are the best place given that a poster's ability to craft better posts is vastly superior here, but If your customers are largely in another place is it a good business practice to be where they are as well or ignore that they're in another place too? There is only one right answer to that question if you're looking at it from a business perspective.

      Why do you think we also read other fan sites and third party sites like Reddit, Twitter, and Discord? Players are there. It's a simple fact and reasoning.
      World of Warcraft Subscribers
      The final blue post deals with sub numbers. Players have been canceling their subs for various reasons since the dawn of WoW and Battle for Azeroth is nothing exceptional. A similar thing happened during Legion, the reason being Legendaries. The team is interally discussing player concerns and proposing ways of fixing them.
      Blizzard (Source)
      Is it just me or have there been far, far more threads claiming to not continue their sub/cancel completely compared to all throughout Legion? Like, it's getting to a point where I'm wondering if Blizzard is worried or not. I don't want to go through another WoD debacle but I'm just personally noticing the increase in people who seemingly are done with my favorite game of all time.

      This is troubling, no? Blizzard do you even care?
      ...Yeah, it was. Before this it was about flying and gated allied races.
      Then before that it was Legendaries in Legion, etc. The list goes on for each expansion. I remember seeing people on the forums claiming that the 1.6 patch was going to kill the game because it allowed players to queue for BGs at the Battlemasters in capital cities and thus they were unsubbing, this was 13 years ago.

      I don't want to diminish or invalidate anyone's criticism with this post but yes, GD has always been like this and always will.
      I'm actually kind of sad to see this reply as it just feels inline with everything going on lately. shrug of the shoulders and oh well, btw we are making azurite more complicated, have a nice day!!. in this answer all I see is more of the same our way or the highway attitude from blizz. its disappointing.
      ...Just gotta say, despite saying you don't want to diminish or invalidate criticism, you do just that.
      Sorry if that was the feeling at all as like I said I don't aim to do that by any means.

      Even though we all know how GD can get, we by no means use that to dismiss any present feelings or overall concerns. We recognize everyone is coming from a good place when they raise a concern and every forum post does have a point. Sometimes the point is a little silly or we disagree with it, but that doesn't make it any less valid from that perspective of that player (even if they use McNuggets to explain it). Internally though we share a lot of the concerns you guys have, and conversations happen daily around them as well. We discuss what actually causes this problem and how to solve it. That includes fixing something if we feel it does need to be fixed.
       
    • By Stan
      Varok Saurfang's story continues in Patch 8.1. Check out what awaits the High Overlord in Tides of Vengeance! This article contains spoilers.
      Foreword
      Blizzard released a cinematic titled "Old Soldier", where the High Overlord reacts to the Burning of Teldrassil. He's not content with Sylvanas' decisions and does not like where the Horde is heading.
      Saurfang becomes fed up with the events of the Battle for Lordaeron and is taken to the Stockades by Anduin. Later in the Stormwind Extraction Scenario, you find him locked up in a cell, but he does not want to return to Orgrimmar.
      If you missed our first installment of Saurfang's story in Battle for Azeroth, you can check it out here.
      Saurfang's Story in Patch 8.1
      Blizzard added a new NPC called Varok Saurfang in Tides of Vengeance and the Orc received a new skin as well. He's no longer referred to as "High Overlord" and does not wear his usual armor.

      Saurfang escaped the Stockades and Horde players are sent to investigate what happened to him. Sylvanas does not want him to fall into the hands of the Alliance and demands you to take him back to Orgrimmar. Our favorite Zappyboi makes an appearance at the end of the questline, joining him in battle.
      Varok Saurfang Questline in Patch 8.1
      The 8.1 questline starts with Dark Ranger Alina and "The Dark Lady Calls" quest aboard the Bahsee Wall and Sylvanas requests your audience in Orgrimmar.
      The Dark Lady Calls
      Champion, the Dark Lady has need of you. We cannot speak more of this here. Make haste to Orgrimmar at once. Best not to keep her waiting.
      An Abomination Guard is guarding the door in Grommash Hold to ensure that your meeting with Sylvanas stays private.
      The High Overlord
      I have asked you here to discuss a matter of great improtance to the Horde. Varok Saurfang is no longer present in Stormwind. Let us discuss this turn of events.
      Sylvanas wants you to locate Saurfang, because the Alliance would surely kill him on sight. Some members of the Horde question his loyalty and consider him a traitor for his willing surrender at the Battle for Lordaeron.
      A Way Out
      My spies report that our High Overlord did not leave the way he entered, not any other way we know of. No signs were seen at any of the known exits to the Stockades or sewers. He simply was in his cell one moment, and not the next. Begin your investigation around the city of Stormwind. There must be another way out that we do not know of. Dark Ranger Lyana will meet you there, her tracking skills are second to none. Do not fail me, my champion.
      Now, you must reach Elwynn Forest to continue the questline. The easiest way was to teleport to Dalaran, use the portal to Karazhan and fly there.
      On Track
      Keep your head down, we don't want to be seen out here. Our spies keep watching over Stormwind day and night, and saw no signs of Saurfang. Not did we notice any oddly-oversized carts or strange ships in the night, if that was what you were thinking. How then, did he make his escape? Let's look around.
      You're going to find a sewer exit outside the city.
      Clicking the Old Lock will make the following text appear:
      Now that you've found Saurfang's escape route, the search continues...
      You will be attacked by SI:7 Agents and the quest is complete when you defeat all three.
      You need to keep moving, because SI:7 Agents are probably looking for Saurfang as well.
      Eastern Escape
      It's not unusual to see SI:7 spies lurking around the city, but still, something about this doesn't feel right. We need to find where Saurfang's trail picks up. The last tracks were heading east, towards Redridge. At the entrance to Redridge is Three Corners, one of the more well-defended towers the Alliance has. I have an idea, meet me there.
      The search for Saurfang continues in Redridge Mountains.
      Corner Crossing
      If Saurfang was headed in this direction, it would have been difficult for him to avoid the Three Corners watchpost. We could simply walk in there and demand information, but I have a feeling that they would not part with it willingly. So we will take another approach. I have procured this potion from our alchemists. It will turn us into--ugh-- humans for a while. We can then question the guards, perhaps someone saw something.
      Use the Humanizing Potion to turn yourself into a Human for 10 minutes and ask guards for information. After you taken on the appearance of a Human, Lyana tells you:
      You're going to approach guards and tell them you've lost a puppy. Dark Ranger Lyana goes by the name "Marion Sutton" when transformed.
      The guards were super drunk last night and they do not recall anything. It must have been fairly easy for Saurfang to pass by the Three Corner watchpost unnoticed. Now you question Darcy Parker about what happened last night.
      The search continues in Lakeshire at Inkeeper Brianna. She informs you that guards are staying upstairs at the Lakeshire Inn. After searching the room for clues, you find an Official-Looking Note from Shaw:
      Signs of Saurfang
      With the guards drunk at their posts, Saurfang would have had little trouble passing Three Corners undetected. The path splits up ahead. The back roads of Redridge are poorly-patrolled and infested with gnolls and spiders. In other words, a perfect path for an orc trying to not to be noticed. His most likely path is Lakeridge Highway, we should continue our investigation there.
      You'll find ripped webbing, ichor, and plenty of killed spiders in Lakeridge Highway.
      Defeat the Injured Bristlequeen to complete the quest.
      Ever Eastward
      All signs point to our quarry heading farther east. To what end, Im an not sure, but I have my suspicions. I am going to scout the area from the air, let's meet up at Redridge Pass.
      Tracking Tipoff
      Look there, down the hill, one of the Alliance hunters that roams the area. No one knows these pathways like them. If our quarry passed through this area, they would certainly have seen the tracks. Their dogs may even have noticed. Here is another dose of the potion. Let us question this one while he is alone.
      It's time to drink  Humanizing Potion again and question Hunter McAlister who is later killed, because his dogs notice you're not actual humans.
      Killing Hunter McAlister and his dogs makes Zappyboi appear! Zekhan offers the next quest while Lyana informs you she must return to the Warchief.
      Zekhan tells you that Saurfang's hiding at a nearby farm.
      Grim Tidings
      Ey mon, dat dark ranger, she lied to ya'! Saurfang knew they'd be comin' for him. He sent me to watch the pass, see who his assassins were, try to warn him if I could. She's not reportin' back nothin', she's goin' to kill him. Probably got a whole group of deathguards just waiting for her to give the signal. We gotta stop dem! You with me?
      Dark Ranger Lyana lied to you and she wants to kill him. Better hurry and inform Saurfang who's located in the Swamp of Sorrows.
      A Warrior's Death
      She gonna try an' take him in, and then no one ever gonna see Varok Saurfang again. Dis was never a rescue mission, dis was about power, an' control, an' Sylvanas think she be holdin' all the cards. But she didn't count on us! Let's go.
      Turns out Sylvanas actually tricked you and wants Saurfang dead.
      Completing the quest rewards a fun cloak toy - Worn Cloak. A scripted event will begin as soon as you accept the quest and you must defend Saurfang.
      Dark Ranger Lyana and her crew die, but now you must come up with something to fool Sylvanas.
      Queen's Favor
      I have two things to ask of you, and I do not ask them lightly. First, I need you to retain the favor of the warchief. She will undoubtedly have questions, and seeds of distrust may begin to grow, but she cannot lose you as an ally, not now. She would not so willingly part with one of her greatest champions. In order to do so, it will have to look like you faced me in combat, and lost. I trust you can take a hit. Second, I ask you not to follow me further. I must make this journey alone.
      Talk to Saurfang and tell him to punch you. The screen turns black for a second and you will be afflicted with the "Convincing Blow" debuff for 10 minutes.
      Finally, go to Orgrimmar and talk to Sylvanas in Grommash Hold to complete the Queen's Favor quest that rewards Artifact Power.
      The story ends here. Sylvanas doesn't know you defeated the dark ranger and her forces along with Saurfang and Zekhan. Let's see what the future holds for Varok. Let us know what you think about his story so far and Sylvanas wanting him dead.
      Characters Involved in the Questline
      Dark Ranger Lyana
      Veteran Dark Ranger appointed by Sylvanas to help you track down Saurfang. In the beginning, it all looks like a rescue mission, but further down the questline you learn that she was deceiving you all along. She's later killed by the player, Saurfang, and Zekhan.
      Varok Saurfang
      Saurfang escaped the Stockades and you find him hiding at a farm in the swamps with simple armor and without the "High Overlord" title, indicating his discontent with Sylvanas' Horde. You confront Dark Ranger Lyana and her forces as you uncover her vile intentions and learn that the rescue mission was actually a lie and Sylvanas wants him dead. He doesn't want you or Zekhan to follow him, because he clearly states that he must travel the path alone. The character of Saurfang remains the embodiment of the Horde's long-lost honor.
      Zekhan
      Zappyboi makes an appearance during the questline and fights alongside Saurfang. Blizzard did a really great job at portraying him loyal to Varok at times of need as we saw in the Old Soldier cinematic.
      Lady Sylvanas Windrunner
      Another lie has been told by the Warchief. First, she makes you believe it's of utmost importance to track down Saurfang, who recently escaped the Stockades, so that the Alliance does not kill him. Later, she accuses Varok of treason against the Horde and she wants him dead. After you kill Lyana and her forces, you fool her into believing that Saurfang did all that. Blizzard confirmed in an interview that Sylvanas will not be Garrosh 2.0 in Battle for Azeroth.
      Gameplay Video
      Saurfang-Sylvanas relations hit an all-time low in Tides of Vegeance.
    • By Jovovich
      World of Warcraft - [Horde][US-Arthas]Unhuman - Francais - Uldir 3/8M  -  www.unhuman.ca
       
      Unhuman est à la recherche de nouveaux visages qui seraient intéressés à joindre ses rangs!
      Forum: http://forum.unhuman.ca/forum/7-recrutement/
       
      Raiding:
      - [Raid] Hex Uldir: 3/8M, 2soir, Mercredi et Jeudi 8pm à 11pm  (EST)
         Leader: Fangpriest / Assistant: Pandov et Starbender
      - [Raid] Unknown (Heroic only) Uldir: 4/8H, 1soir, Mercredi 7pm a 10pm (EST)
         Leader: Felfâllen / Assistant: Flos,  Falmortis 
      - [Raid] Casual Uldir: 0/8N, 1soir, En formation
         Leader: Legitdh 
      - Raid ouvert a tout les membres de la guilde (normal only) uldir: 8/8N, samedi matin 10am a 1pm (EST)
         Leader: Jovovich
       
      PvP:
      - [PvP] Unhuman RBG: 1200 rating, 1soir Dimanche des 9hpm (EST)
       
      Communauté:
      - Plus de  445 accounts
       
      Unhuman est plus qu'une guilde de raiding performante, c'est aussi la plus grosse communauté Francophone sur World of Warcraft US. Depuis sa création en 2006, Unhuman cherche à offrir à ses raiders un environnement de jeu qui favorise la progression et ce avec des joueurs d'excellent calibre. Nous sommes constamment à la recherche de nouveaux joueurs que ce soit PVE ou PVP, mais aussi des masters du Pet Battles, des champions de l'Archéologie ou peu importe ce qui vous branche ingame. Vous êtes donc assuré de trouver ce que vous cherchez chez nous peu importe votre style de jeu.
       
      Pour toutes questions...
       
      - http://unhuman.ca/
       
      - Jovovich-Arthas, Guild Master
      - Falmortis-Arthas, Officier
    • By Jovovich
      World of Warcraft - [Horde][US-Arthas]Unhuman - French - Uldir: 3/8M - www.unhuman.ca
       
      Unhuman is RECRUITING!
      Forum: http://forum.unhuman.ca/forum/7-recrutement/
       
      Raiding:
      - [Raid] Hex Uldir: 3/8M, 2day, Wednesday and Thursday 8pm to 11pm  (EAST)
         Leader: Fangpriest / Assistant: Pandov et Starbender
      - [Raid] Unknown (Heroic only) Uldir: 4/8H, 1day, Wednesday 7pm to 10pm (EAST)
         Leader: Felfâllen / Assistant: Flos , Florih et Falmortis 
      - [Raid] Casual Uldir: 0/8N, 1day, in formation
         Leader: Legitdh 
      - 1 more raid in formation...
       
      PvP:
      - [PvP] Unhuman RBG: 1200 rating, 1day Sunday starting at 9hpm (EAST)
       
      Community:
      - More than 445 account
       
      Unhuman is a performing raiding guild with multiple raid groups, it's one of the biggest, for not saying the biggest one, french community on World of Warcraft US. Unhuman has been created in December 2006 and will continue to live for a long time, Unhuman is trying to give to our raiders everything they need to be focus only on good progression!. Unhuman is always looking for new players of all kind, PvE or PvP, even with Battle pets or Archeologists or anything else you can do in the game....You will be sure to find your way with Unhuman!
       
      For any question...
      - http://unhuman.ca/
      - Jovovich-Arthas, Guild Master
      - Falmortis-Arthas, Officier