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Patch 7.2.5 - M+15 & Higher Award More Loot

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Many changes to Mythic Keystone Dungeons are coming in 7.2.5 and the goal of the latest PTR build was to increase the incentive of running Keystones past level 15.

  • Keystones above level 15 have an increasing chance to contain more loot and the chances scale linearly, even past 100%
  • At level 20, you are guaranteed 4 loot pieces and a 5th should you beat the timer

Blizzard LogoBlizzard (Source)

One additional change we're making that should hit in the next PTR build, with the goal of providing some extra incentive to run difficulties past the item level cap.

For every Keystone level above 15, you'll have an increasing chance for the final chest to contain additional loot. This chance scales linearly, will roll over past 100%, and accumulates pretty quickly: at level 20, you'll be guaranteed 4 pieces of loot, plus a 5th if you beat the timer.
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Well, in my opinion that's the way how blizzard should work with mythic+: making higher keystones more intresting instead nerfing lower keystone rewards. I'm not sure if more loot will have a strong impact, but it's definitly a good approach!

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1 hour ago, Allseye said:

Well, in my opinion that's the way how blizzard should work with mythic+: making higher keystones more intresting instead nerfing lower keystone rewards. I'm not sure if more loot will have a strong impact, but it's definitly a good approach!

The main point was making challenging m+ less punishing in failure(what they did by removing the depleting system).

If you wanted AP, it was way easier to rush people's lower keystones and way more rewarding (3 chests at +3 is better than one at +10).

I think that more loot is good enough so you don't feel you are losing your time by doing the hardest content you can.

Titanforging is still a thing, so it may be not enough, since you stilll can get ilvl cap gear by doing lower level content.

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2 hours ago, Derivan said:

The main point was making challenging m+ less punishing in failure(what they did by removing the depleting system).

If you wanted AP, it was way easier to rush people's lower keystones and way more rewarding (3 chests at +3 is better than one at +10).

I think that more loot is good enough so you don't feel you are losing your time by doing the hardest content you can.

Titanforging is still a thing, so it may be not enough, since you stilll can get ilvl cap gear by doing lower level content.

Yes, i think its okay to make it less punishing. But blizzard has to think like a player: it's basically always a questions of reward/time. So, if they want that players are doing appropriate keystones, then they have to ajust the reward-system. I think they made a big mistake by giving more reward if you clear the dungeon in a specific time. Reward (amount and quality) should be based on keystone-level and not be based on time. Why giving more reward for finishing a dungeon faster? The reward is already there: faster improvement of the keystone, that should be enough. It should be something you want to achiev. Of course, player will still run lower keystones if it is more rewarding for AP due to reward/time ratio. But that's okay if they have to sacrifice better loot (gear).

Blizzard has to find a way that we frequently want to achiev higher keystones. Normally, this is done by giving a better reward (amount and quality).  What blizzard now does is to improve the amount by not changing the quality (they cap it at a certain keystone-level). I'm quite sure: if they also improve the quality (for exemple by giving an appropriate higher chance for warforging/titantforging), we will be absolutely pushing for higher (and appropriate) keystone-level.

Edited by Allseye

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If you think about it, one more item = more chances for warforging.

What they should do would be to increase AP accordngly, since most of people spam mythic+ grinding for AP.

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Actually the only thing with Mythic + is getting into a group while you are gearing as DPS. Healers and Tanks don't have that much trouble to get into a group, but as a DPS you need 910 ilvl to do a mythic 5 (according to people who want to do the dungeon fast and I dont't blame them). The higher + reward need to feel rewarding so overgeared ppl stop farming low lvl keys. And high lvl mythics don't need more item rewards if they can't beat mythic raiding gear, It's just more gold/obliterum. Giving X% x Mythic Key lvl, would do the trick, of course it would need to be appropriately arranged so you better do the 1 x 15lvl than 2 x 10lvl. Balancing this could be very hard.

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12 hours ago, Derivan said:

If you think about it, one more item = more chances for warforging.

What they should do would be to increase AP accordngly, since most of people spam mythic+ grinding for AP.

Yeah, also thought about that fact. But i think just increasing the amount wont solve the problem. People will say: lets do 2x 10 rather than 1x 15 - again the question of reward/time. I dont think blizzard can and will increase the amount that much.

3 hours ago, Dvanom said:

Actually the only thing with Mythic + is getting into a group while you are gearing as DPS. Healers and Tanks don't have that much trouble to get into a group, but as a DPS you need 910 ilvl to do a mythic 5 (according to people who want to do the dungeon fast and I dont't blame them). The higher + reward need to feel rewarding so overgeared ppl stop farming low lvl keys. And high lvl mythics don't need more item rewards if they can't beat mythic raiding gear, It's just more gold/obliterum. Giving X% x Mythic Key lvl, would do the trick, of course it would need to be appropriately arranged so you better do the 1 x 15lvl than 2 x 10lvl. Balancing this could be very hard.

Yes, it's "just" a question of balancing the reward per keystonelvl. It's absolutely not an easy job, but blizzard is going in the right direction.

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18 hours ago, Allseye said:

Yeah, also thought about that fact. But i think just increasing the amount wont solve the problem. People will say: lets do 2x 10 rather than 1x 15 - again the question of reward/time. I dont think blizzard can and will increase the amount that much.

Right now it is better because you get 6 items in a +10 (three chests).

Since you don't get extra chests anymore, you actually need to do literally twice as fast so it may be even worthy to do lv 10 instead of 15. (Keeping the same ilvl, what is still true, but in 7.2.5 will no longer be.)

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On 5/10/2017 at 1:57 AM, Stan said:
  • At level 20, you are guaranteed 4 loot pieces and a 5th should you beat the timer

I'm confused as to how this makes sense. If you can beat the timer on a +20 you probably could do 2 +15's in the same amount of time or darn close. Which would be 8 pieces of max lvl loot. +20 is 336% damage and life where as a +15 is like 200% damage and life. Not to mention if your farming a certain dungeon you could run 2 15's of that dungeon in the time it would take you to do a +20.

 

Unless they are offering a crap ton more AP for a 20 I don't see the point to it.

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12 minutes ago, BIGJAKE said:

I'm confused as to how this makes sense. If you can beat the timer on a +20 you probably could do 2 +15's in the same amount of time or darn close. Which would be 8 pieces of max lvl loot. +20 is 336% damage and life where as a +15 is like 200% damage and life. Not to mention if your farming a certain dungeon you could run 2 15's of that dungeon in the time it would take you to do a +20.

 

Unless they are offering a crap ton more AP for a 20 I don't see the point to it.

Given we're almost at the very end of NH right now, for a lot of groups doing a +15 now is quite easy. By the time people start and then get further into ToS, a +20 will be relatively easy.

As it stands now, my guild and I can do a +15 within the timer and 2-3 chest it. All this requirement for the extra chest has is beating the timer. Given the way AP scales at the moment anyway, you'd be getting a LOT of AP and the rewards would be quite nice. Since the paragon grind this time around is eeeeven longer, I can definitely understand the desire to push that much. But I guess, more than anything it was put in place to really challenge and reward the top end players. If you're able to do a +20 that is a legitimate challenge, you should be justly rewarded. It's not so much there to benefit everyone, but for the top of the top players it's that recognition of the extended effort they put in to get the keys done.

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On 14.5.2017 at 1:25 PM, BIGJAKE said:

I'm confused as to how this makes sense. If you can beat the timer on a +20 you probably could do 2 +15's in the same amount of time or darn close. Which would be 8 pieces of max lvl loot. +20 is 336% damage and life where as a +15 is like 200% damage and life. Not to mention if your farming a certain dungeon you could run 2 15's of that dungeon in the time it would take you to do a +20.

 

Unless they are offering a crap ton more AP for a 20 I don't see the point to it.

Yes, you absolutely got the point. This is why i stated that just increasing the amount of items won't solve the whole problem.Derivan, it doesn't depend if its a 2x10 or a 2x15 after. It's a "systematic" problem which depends on the cap-keystonelevel. If the don't make any further changes, you will mostly be running the cap-keystonelevels due to better reward/time ratio.

On 14.5.2017 at 1:40 PM, Luthixx said:

Given we're almost at the very end of NH right now, for a lot of groups doing a +15 now is quite easy. By the time people start and then get further into ToS, a +20 will be relatively easy.

As it stands now, my guild and I can do a +15 within the timer and 2-3 chest it. All this requirement for the extra chest has is beating the timer. Given the way AP scales at the moment anyway, you'd be getting a LOT of AP and the rewards would be quite nice. Since the paragon grind this time around is eeeeven longer, I can definitely understand the desire to push that much. But I guess, more than anything it was put in place to really challenge and reward the top end players. If you're able to do a +20 that is a legitimate challenge, you should be justly rewarded. It's not so much there to benefit everyone, but for the top of the top players it's that recognition of the extended effort they put in to get the keys done.

I agree, it should be rewarding to end a high keystone in time. But it isnt and it still wont be after the changes will go live. Even if AP scales higher: the benefit of a higher artefact isn't that significant than it was. AP-grinding wont be necessary - and this was also a goal of blizzard (which i absolutely appreciate). So, what is the rewarding part of doing a +20? - There will be none. Because its what BIGJAKE has stated: runing 2x15 instead of 1x20 will give a better reward/time ratio =)

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      Please give us a way to spread Moonfire on multiple targets.
      Twin Moons is a new talent that causes Moonfire to deal additional damage and also hit a second nearby enemy within 20 yds of that target. (a.k.a legendary shoulders) This was useful functionality that helped with ramp in multitarget situations and was also visually satisfying.
      One other change is to Celestial Alignment/Incarnation: Chosen of Elune. Instead of providing +50% Astral Power generation on Lunar Strike/Solar Wrath, they now provide 15% Haste (and their damage bonus has been tuned down slightly for now). The spec’s resource is a bit of a not-super-stable balance of Astral Power and Lunar/Solar Empowerment generation/consumption, and Celestial Alignment/Incarnation: Chosen of Elune sometimes caused resource/Empowerments overflow, a problem that a Haste bonus doesn’t have.
      Thanks for all the well-written and constructive feedback, especially from the original poster.