Neck choice...what would you do and why...

[Banard 61]

Situation...both sim close to the same, running a simulation multiple times, one can be higher than the other but they are always in the error of each other. Fact/Problem/Issue: Haste has always been over valued in sims...even with softcaps haste is still over valued. 

 

Neck #1: Mastery 82% , Crit 26%, Haste 15%, Versatility 3%  Leech 6%

Neck #2: Mastery 94% , Crit 24%, Haste 12%, Versatility 3%  Leech 6%

Note: end goal change versatility to haste but RNG is RNG and i added leech just to brag (BWAHAHAHAHAH)

 

What would you wear and why? 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Banard

[Khallid 110]

Heh, if they both sim about the same then that hardly counts as a "problem".

My impression is that Haste is good for long fights, which is why it sims high (most sims show you a 7.5 minute fight dps), but tends to have a lower impact on the opener because you don't need the extra focus during Aspect of the Wild or Bloodlust and the cooldown reduction on Kill Command is wasted if you can use Killer Cobra nonstop (which tends to happen in the opener). If you're killing bosses fast then go with the Mastery neck.

That leech does look quite nice indeed...

[Banard 61]

2 hours ago, Khallid said:

Heh, if they both sim about the same then that hardly counts as a "problem".

Did i say it was a problem? Its something i am mulling over.

Length of fight..hmmm...something i'll look into...working on mythic guldan so if that is the factor i'll keep using the haste heavy neck...

waaaaaaaa...i dont want to sim any more...waaaaaa <---not being sarcastic this is me actually crying! 

[Khallid 110]

4 hours ago, Banard said:

waaaaaaaa...i dont want to sim any more...waaaaaa <---not being sarcastic this is me actually crying! 

Of course it's not a problem, you just happen to cry for no reason :P

[Banard 61]

see....this is what gets me mulling over this....from Azortharion message in discord. 

Quote

PSA for everyone doing their own stat weights as Beast Mastery.

There exists (and has existed for a long time) a bit of a problem with SimCraft that is inherent to the tool where the behaviour of the APL can cause Haste to have incredibly high values at certain intervals, or "breakpoints" that will allow an unrealistic amount of extra spellcasts. One of these exist for BM (without Haste trinkets) somewhere between 7000-8000 Hasterating (roughly 20%, that's right, the 20% hastepoint is not a real thing).

The TL;DR is that if you're simming your stat weights and Haste has an incredibly high value, firstly try and enable "Center Scale Delta" in the scaling options. If that doesn't work, turn it off and go to your profile under Simulate, scroll down to the gear section, add ",enchant=100haste" to the end of any item, and increase this Haste number in increments of 100 until the Haste weight goes down to something more normal. This will increase your DPS artifically, but it will not matter much to the stat weight result, and that's what you're after, not accurate DPS numbers.

Unless your Haste is extremely low, it should never really be above Mastery unless there's shenanigans going on.

 

now looking at: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/beast-mastery-hunter-pve-dps-stat-priority

This information is not there. 

How do we define extremely low? This information is also not in the guide. I am getting the impression the mastery heavy neck is the better choice and the sims are artificially producing a similar result. 

 

My current stat weights (which i need to adjust in Pawn) are: 

Mastery

19.79

Crit

16.69

Vers

14.58

Agi

13.87

Haste

13.72

 

So ...once i input this PAWN will be yelling at me to use the mastery heavy neck.....

I think i got me answer...

Edited May 26, 2017 by Banard

[Khallid 110]

I'm pretty noob at using simulations to be honest, but I find it hard to believe that Versatility would ever be higher than Agility or Haste.

There's also the "legendary effects" which fuck it all up. The shoulders improve crit for sure. The belt is supposed to reduce the effect from Haste from what I've read (not tested thoroughly myself) since you need less focus to cast. I'd guess the bracers also reduce the effect of Haste, since they effectively increase the focus regen from additional casts of aspect of the wild. The stats guide here is written assuming you don't have any legendaries equipped.

[Luthixx 138]

I'd honestly say if you have shoulders and belt that you don't need the haste at all. Just stack up that mastery. Haste is only really good to give you that focus gen and when you have the belt that's not really needed. 

I have bracers as well so when I have aspect/BW up I literally can't dump my focus at all, I can start with 0 and end up with almost half focus by the end just because it regens so fast. 

Next patch when aspect gives the 0.2sec gcd reduction I doubt I'm even going to want much haste at all, I'm envisioning haste above 10-12% being almost redundant if you have bracers and belt next patch. 

[Najjic 10]

16 hours ago, Luthixx said:

 

I'd honestly say if you have shoulders and belt that you don't need the haste at all. Just stack up that mastery. Haste is only really good to give you that focus gen and when you have the belt that's not really needed. 

 

Until patch 7.2.5 hits haste is still very powerful for you and you should try and get it somewhere around 17% +. However 12% mastery >>>>>>>>>>>> over 3% haste and 2% crit in whatever situation ( legendary, low on haste etc) you might be in.

 

Regarding pawn it is in my opinion useless for bm hunters currently since haste and mastery is the only stats that you need to have( and agi ofc). So basicly completely ignore whatever it is saying and go for haste mastery on as many pieces as possible ( ie every single slot outside of set piecesand legy's) especially since your current stats are weak.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Najjic

[Luthixx 138]

12 hours ago, Najjic said:

Until patch 7.2.5 hits haste is still very powerful for you and you should try and get it somewhere around 17% +. However 12% mastery >>>>>>>>>>>> over 3% haste and 2% crit in whatever situation ( legendary, low on haste etc) you might be in.

 

Regarding pawn it is in my opinion useless for bm hunters currently since haste and mastery is the only stats that you need to have( and agi ofc). So basicly completely ignore whatever it is saying and go for haste mastery on as many pieces as possible ( ie every single slot outside of set piecesand legy's) especially since your current stats are weak.

Well, that's a change from where you used to stand haha! First I've heard you not suggesting shoulders & boots is still the better combo and suggesting crit.

Realistically, if you've got the shoulders and belt, focus gen is never an issue and the only difference with haste is if it means one more kill command within the BW window. If you have the shoulders there's a lot of ambiguity in what stats you should be going for, some of the top hunters I've seen aren't preferencing anything above mastery. With Banard's ilvl and gear I think high mastery is the way to go.

Having higher haste is only really beneficial if you want to keep up 3 stacks of DF during lust and you can do that really easily with almost no haste when you have shoulders. Plus, higher crit means higher uptime on DF throughout the fight anyway, if my crit is anything above 20% I get so many wasted procs that it's just not even worth it anymore. But with shoulders that's completely fine.

[Najjic 10]

On 2017-05-28 at 9:20 AM, Luthixx said:

Well, that's a change from where you used to stand haha! First I've heard you not suggesting shoulders & boots is still the better combo and suggesting crit.

Realistically, if you've got the shoulders and belt, focus gen is never an issue and the only difference with haste is if it means one more kill command within the BW window. If you have the shoulders there's a lot of ambiguity in what stats you should be going for, some of the top hunters I've seen aren't preferencing anything above mastery. With Banard's ilvl and gear I think high mastery is the way to go.

Having higher haste is only really beneficial if you want to keep up 3 stacks of DF during lust and you can do that really easily with almost no haste when you have shoulders. Plus, higher crit means higher uptime on DF throughout the fight anyway, if my crit is anything above 20% I get so many wasted procs that it's just not even worth it anymore. But with shoulders that's completely fine.

True, with shoulders and boots you should still go for WOTP and stack crit. I'm sry for overlooking that.

Also you are right in that mastery is way above anything else at the moment and should be the what you aim for in every single gear slot( which is exactly what i said but whatever) Gennerally at ilvl 905 and above you should try and stay somewhere around 100% mastery and over 18% haste for ideal performance. 

currently for bm if you had the option to switch all your crit to haste you should do so. With the way Bm currently plays your biggest enemy is GC's since like you said focus isn't really an issue anymore ( Especialy if you are playing with belt).

 

 

 

[Banard 61]

9 hours ago, Najjic said:

True, with shoulders and boots you should still go for WOTP and stack crit. I'm sry for overlooking that.

 

 

 

 

What is WOTP? Is this one with the pack? and crit? Like this information is months old and wrong. It be a huge drop in dps, in SIMS and in practice....%*%* i got to add 10% crit (manual) without reducing any other stats to get to what i SIM with bestial fury...

Also, if your forum name matches the hunter with that name then you are not even practising it. 

 

Or is this you being snarky and I am missing something?

Edited May 29, 2017 by Banard

[Banard 61]

On 2017-5-27 at 3:59 PM, Najjic said:

Until patch 7.2.5 hits haste is still very powerful for you and you should try and get it somewhere around 17% +. However 12% mastery >>>>>>>>>>>> over 3% haste and 2% crit in whatever situation ( legendary, low on haste etc) you might be in.

 

Got some proof to back that statement up?

[Khallid 110]

This went in a weird direction. There's only one guy called Najjic in warcraft logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/10920826/11#metric=dps and he hasn't used the crit build since early April, basically he switched when the new 7.2 artifact traits came out, just as everybody else. I don't understand why he said any of what he said in this thread.

[Banard 61]

7 minutes ago, Khallid said:

This went in a weird direction. There's only one guy called Najjic in warcraft logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/10920826/11#metric=dps and he hasn't used the crit build since early April, basically he switched when the new 7.2 artifact traits came out, just as everybody else. I don't understand why he said any of what he said in this thread.

either (a) he is being a snarky ^&**%& (like i am when i tell people to get a spore bat. 

(b) isn't the same person, maybe a fan boy from his server? 

(c) multiple personality ...toureetes...yup toureetes me beard i on toureetes....

[Najjic 10]

Quick note:

1. Really sorry :) didn't mean to spark so many emotions.

2. clarification. I meant if you have the shoulders and boots legendary's (AND those are your BEST ones) you should go OWTP*( SORRY FOR MISSPELLING ) and stack crit mastery since procs are op. SHoulders + boots isn't best combo (btw luthixx those are 2 months old posts and where in completely different context but ty for pointing it out )

Banard 12% mastery equals 12% gain in your pets dps looking from top logs that's atleast a 5-6% dps increase ( not simmed forgive me if it's not 100% accurate) sorry for not including this explaination in my post.

^^^^^important to thread (it seems)

NOt important to thread:

3. Yes i am indeed Najjic-Kazzak (eu).

4. i switched from crit build because i finally got belt whitch is way better than boots

5.  i did not intend to be snarky, Neither am i a fan boy. soo.... must be tourettes.

y definitly tourettes

 

Once again didn't mean to kill your thread. Sorry sorry <3

Edited May 29, 2017 by Najjic

[Banard 61]

14 hours ago, Najjic said:

Quick note:

1. Really sorry :) didn't mean to spark so many emotions.

2. clarification. I meant if you have the shoulders and boots legendary's (AND those are your BEST ones) you should go OWTP*( SORRY FOR MISSPELLING ) and stack crit mastery since procs are op. SHoulders + boots isn't best combo (btw luthixx those are 2 months old posts and where in completely different context but ty for pointing it out )

 

(1) Its conversation not emotion...stop reading tone in forum post. Your making assumptions. 

(2) This is still wrong...with boots and shoulders you still do not stack crit and go OWTP.  MONTHS AGO...before the dire frenzy fix and the new weapon talents...you went OWTP and STOMP and stacking crit sometimes illustrated better DPS...sometimes....and that was pre-7.2.5. So your statement is wrong.  

[Khallid 110]

17 hours ago, Najjic said:

Banard 12% mastery equals 12% gain in your pets dps looking from top logs that's atleast a 5-6% dps increase ( not simmed forgive me if it's not 100% accurate) sorry for not including this explaination in my post.

That's not how math works.

Increasing Mastery from 82% to 94% is actually a 6.6% increase in pet damage, because the damage increase is relative to the previous amount of mastery. You increase damage from 1.82 times base damage to 1.94 times base damage. None of these numbers are linearly additive, ever (which is why I despise pawn strings). A 12% increase in pet damage only happens when your Mastery is at 0%, which is impossible because your base Mastery doesn't start at 0% even if you have no gear.

Pet damage is somewhere around 80% of a BM Hunter's dps though, so it's still close to a 5% damage increase. However, the Mastery gain comes at a loss of Haste and Crit, which is why the real difference in damage is actually very small.

Just get a higher ilvl neck instead, or a spore bat :P

Edited May 30, 2017 by Khallid

[Najjic 10]

7 hours ago, Khallid said:

Pet damage is somewhere around 80% of a BM Hunter's dps though, so it's still close to a 5% damage increase. However, the Mastery gain comes at a loss of Haste and Crit, which is why the real difference in damage is actually very small.

so.... my statement was correct ? or do you think 3 % haste and 2% crit is equal to 5 % damage increase ? 

 

7 hours ago, Khallid said:

Just get a higher ilvl neck instead

Definitly do not do this. SInce necks don't have agility on them secondary statstick is all that matters. IN this case 12% increase in mastery beats 2% crit and 3% haste whatever your statstick is or whatever situation you might be in. ( difference is not small here)

[Sharknad0 67]

I am a little confused as to why you think haste is over valued. After reaching my max possible sims, by hitting 18% haste, even with a 13% dip in mastery, I am noticing a difference in game. I would roll higher haste. Try to hit the 18% mark, then load mastery as much as possible.

[Khallid 110]

16 hours ago, Najjic said:

so.... my statement was correct ? or do you think 3 % haste and 2% crit is equal to 5 % damage increase ? 

You threw numbers out at random based on fallacies, that does not constitute a correct statement.

Crit and Haste are much harder to calculate mathematically because they have several effects that are not so straightforward. Crit gives Wild Call procs and damage. Haste gives cooldown reduction to Kill Command and Dire Freny, increases focus regeneration, lowers global cooldowns and decreases the cooldown of auto attack which also increases the procs per minute of Wild Call. But the cooldown reduction of Kill Command is offset during Bestial Wrath, so its usefuleness on that regard will depend on the uptime of Bestial Wrath, which depends on the proc rate of Wild Call. Haste does so many things it's really pointless to compare absolute increases of percentages directly. All stat increases are relative to the amount of stats you have at that moment.

For all intents and purposes, sims are the most accurate way to figure out what is best.

[Banard 61]

2 hours ago, Sharknad0 said:

I am a little confused as to why you think haste is over valued. After reaching my max possible sims, by hitting 18% haste, even with a 13% dip in mastery, I am noticing a difference in game. I would roll higher haste. Try to hit the 18% mark, then load mastery as much as possible.

Its been a general rule of thumb for years since femaledwarf.com days. 

It has been reconfirmed in the above post i copy and paste..the original is in the hunter discord...it mentions the "soft cap" you are referring too. 

[Banard 61]

18 hours ago, Najjic said:

so.... my statement was correct ? or do you think 3 % haste and 2% crit is equal to 5 % damage increase ? 

 

Definitly do not do this. SInce necks don't have agility on them secondary statstick is all that matters. IN this case 12% increase in mastery beats 2% crit and 3% haste whatever your statstick is or whatever situation you might be in. ( difference is not small here)

Just don't forget to get a sporebat. I am not discussing old information anymore. As of the last patch you should not stack crit. 

 

[Banard 61]

1 hour ago, Khallid said:

 

For all intents and purposes, sims are the most accurate way to figure out what is best.

Like all statistical tools it depends on the person using them.