positiv2

Heroes of the Storm Malthael

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This thread is for comments about our Malthael build guide for Heroes of the Storm.

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Thanks for the quick posting of the guide! I recommend some proof reading of the guide though, Raper's Mark sounds a bit disturbing. 

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A build centered around Reaper's Mark also works very well, if you take Fear the Reaper for level one you get a pretty good escape (except from Naz's zombies, not sure if that is a bug or not), followed by Black Harvest that simply increases your base dmg (which works well enough on its own but also pairs really well with Memento Mori at Lvl 16), then take Mortality so if your target runs you can close the gap so you can get more basic attacks with Reaper's Mark on it. Either ult works well, but if you really want to stick to the Reaper's Mark theme go with Tormented Souls, if used nearby a lot of enemy heroes you can easily get a bunch of seconds for your Black Harvest quest (however, Last Rites can be a good way to finish off heroes and if you finish the quest you can use it every 15 seconds, which is also very good in itself). Lvl 13 you grab Ethereal Existence which gives Malthael some much needed armor because sometimes he does feel a little squishy, as stated you take Memento Mori at Lvl 16 to deal 5% of a hero's max health after second 4 it's applied to them, then either heroic talent is a good choice, Reaper of Souls which allows you to apply Reaper's Mark to more heroes the more you kill, or Angel of Death which allows Malthael to heal a large amount in team fights so he can last much longer. 

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I love the reference to Revelation On a Pale Horse makes, too bad it's not considered a good option :/ Indeed tho, Fear the Reaper helps a lot offensively and defensively (chase/escape) and comes in handy in more situations. OaPH can be useful on large maps however, like the author says.

Tried both builds and the Black Harvest-->Memento Mori direction seems better to me. Didn't notice huge difference in self-sustain with Soul Rip build unless when Tormented Souls is active. That's why I prefer Angel of Death level 20; burst heal is best heal and when vs burst and/or sustained damage, Soul Rip's (even enhanced) may not be enough.

Guide's pretty well done, thumbs up :)

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13 hours ago, Guest Steel Hydra said:

Thanks for the quick posting of the guide! I recommend some proof reading of the guide though, Raper's Mark sounds a bit disturbing. 

I cannot find "Raper's Mark" anywhere. Where did you find it?

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With the 20 talent Angel of Death, should it be a consideration for high health compositions, such as dual tanks, or groups that have relatively good hp heroes? 

It seems a way to be a healing cursed bullet out of greymane, and with the lower re-use count on ensuring kills with it as a finisher, helps you back into a fight without needing to worry about others, and keeps you soaking for your team, or just saves you from ambushers as well. 

Malthael folds to Burst damage relatively quickly, and this seems like a good option to also keep his weakness from being so glaring and denying kills from the enemy team. (And your team losing a player for 70-ish seconds)

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4 hours ago, Guest Angel Of Death as ? said:

With the 20 talent Angel of Death, should it be a consideration for high health compositions, such as dual tanks, or groups that have relatively good hp heroes? 

It seems a way to be a healing cursed bullet out of greymane, and with the lower re-use count on ensuring kills with it as a finisher, helps you back into a fight without needing to worry about others, and keeps you soaking for your team, or just saves you from ambushers as well. 

Malthael folds to Burst damage relatively quickly, and this seems like a good option to also keep his weakness from being so glaring and denying kills from the enemy team. (And your team losing a player for 70-ish seconds)

If the enemy is able to rush you down within 2 seconds, the talent is nearly useless. It can be used against sustain, but most of the times a healer should be able to keep you alive.

Against tanky team, you want Final Curtain in order to keep Reaper's Mark up at almost all times, which is especially useful against the aforementioned tanky compositions.

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This is the build I go with for a sticky and annoying Malthael focused on his passive dealing damage. Experienced great games with Kharazim as lane buddy aswell. Totally destroying big objectives, and dealing heavy team fight damage.

https://www.icy-veins.com/heroes/talent-calculator/malthael#26.0!1311233

 

Also would like to note that I found the Braxis Holdout not as bad as the guide would say it to be. Every time there I deal heavy damage to enemy Zerg wave, and have no problem with mercenaries. As mentioned above, the boss here is being destroyed by Malthael.

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19 hours ago, Guest Killerquo said:

This is the build I go with for a sticky and annoying Malthael focused on his passive dealing damage. Experienced great games with Kharazim as lane buddy aswell. Totally destroying big objectives, and dealing heavy team fight damage.

https://www.icy-veins.com/heroes/talent-calculator/malthael#26.0!1311233

 

Also would like to note that I found the Braxis Holdout not as bad as the guide would say it to be. Every time there I deal heavy damage to enemy Zerg wave, and have no problem with mercenaries. As mentioned above, the boss here is being destroyed by Malthael.

Even if he's not bad on Braxis, it's still his worse map by a pretty large margin. If he can't win the top lane, he'll pretty much be useless, as he offers too little to be on the bottom lane, and doesn't have much potential for ganks.

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On 13/06/2017 at 7:25 PM, Guest Steel Hydra said:

Thanks for the quick posting of the guide! I recommend some proof reading of the guide though, Raper's Mark sounds a bit disturbing. 

Well, he is pretty much the Slim Shady.

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I have a question: does Reaper's Mark stack with other damage-over-time effects? Say, for example, Lunara's poison.

Or a better question: does damage-over-time effects stack with each other? For example Lunara's poison + Chen's Fire Breath + Sonya's Poison Tipped Spear.

This is something I've never stopped to think about.

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5 hours ago, Valhalen said:

I have a question: does Reaper's Mark stack with other damage-over-time effects? Say, for example, Lunara's poison.

Or a better question: does damage-over-time effects stack with each other? For example Lunara's poison + Chen's Fire Breath + Sonya's Poison Tipped Spear.

This is something I've never stopped to think about.

Played Lunara + Nazeebo combo yesterday, and it seems that different DoT effects stack.
Same DoT effects can stack as well, as can be seen with Gul'dan's CorruptionCorruption (which can stack three times with itself), but some DoT effects will not stack with themselves , like the Reaper's MarkReaper's Mark or Cho's Consuming BlazeConsuming Blaze, though these renew the DoT effect.

As for Reaper's MarkReaper's Mark, it seems that it does stack with other DoT effects, based on seeing a game with Xul and Malthael on the same team. 

I do have a question of my own - how does DoT work with effects that change max health. Does the damage stay the same when you pick Colossus SmashColossus Smash/TauntTaunt/Glass CannonGlass Cannon during the DoT duration, or does it change together with the max health? Does Reaper's MarkReaper's Mark work in the same way?

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15 minutes ago, positiv2 said:

I do have a question of my own - how does DoT work with effects that change max health. Does the damage stay the same when you pick Colossus SmashColossus Smash/TauntTaunt/Glass CannonGlass Cannon during the DoT duration, or does it change together with the max health? Does Reaper's MarkReaper's Mark work in the same way?

Or when you level up during the DoT duration. That is indeed a curious question. I wonder if the DoT ticks are compensated retroactively or if they maintain the current value.

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Hi, I was wondering reading this guide why you do not mention the potentiation of Throwing ShadeThrowing Shade with Final CurtainFinal Curtain .

As you mention, Death ShroudDeath Shroud is the best way (and should be used) to put Reaper's MarkReaper's Mark on as many targets as possible. So why should you not spam it ? (cooldown reduction 8 -> 4sec, Mana reduction 50 -> 25) and enlarge it's area of effect (+ 33% range) ; even more with Final CurtainFinal Curtain which leaves a trail of Death ShroudDeath Shroud active for 4 seconds.

So every 4 seconds, you get to spam a spell which leaves a trail that lasts... 4 seconds, greatly improving the number of targets under constant Reaper's MarkReaper's Mark .

This is the template I played with so far with a situational lvl7 and 13 skills.

https://www.icy-veins.com/heroes/talent-calculator/malthael#26.0!3212233

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(Apologies in advance; All the words below are a link to talents because I don't know how to stop the words after you put a talent in from also linking)

I'm wondering if Throwing ShadeThrowing Shade could be an alternate option for Black HarvestBlack Harvest if you're going for a reaper's mark build. A cooldown reduction of 50% is pretty big, and would increase the uptime of his Reaper's MarkReaper's Mark in a different way. It can also allow him to go in a lot more often with Wraith StrikeWraith Strike (it helps if you take Death's ReachDeath's Reach), which helps against ranged opponents. Theoretically, taking Final CurtainFinal Curtain would allow you to keep up a permanent Death ShroudDeath Shroud zone, which can be useful if the team fight stays in roughly the same area (and it'll trigger Memento MoriMemento Mori), and also allowing you to poke more effectively.

Edited by positiv2
Fixed tooltips

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16 hours ago, TwixTrix said:

(Apologies in advance; All the words below are a link to talents because I don't know how to stop the words after you put a talent in from also linking)

After adding a tooltip, you have to press Remove Format button (+PJc5ExPvnR65jaQfeNGCmQQEHJyP3Bo59po1ayg). I am not sure if the button shows on mobile devices though. This issue is on our to-do list.

16 hours ago, TwixTrix said:

I'm wondering if Throwing ShadeThrowing Shade could be an alternate option for Black HarvestBlack Harvest if you're going for a reaper's mark build. A cooldown reduction of 50% is pretty big, and would increase the uptime of his Reaper's MarkReaper's Mark in a different way. It can also allow him to go in a lot more often with Wraith StrikeWraith Strike (it helps if you take Death's ReachDeath's Reach), which helps against ranged opponents. Theoretically, taking Final CurtainFinal Curtain would allow you to keep up a permanent Death ShroudDeath Shroud zone, which can be useful if the team fight stays in roughly the same area (and it'll trigger Memento MoriMemento Mori), and also allowing you to poke more effectively.

Throwing ShadeThrowing Shade is an option if you are good at landing skillshots. However, because Death ShroudDeath Shroud travels slowly, it is easy to dodge, making auto-attacks a more consistent way of applying Reaper's MarkReaper's Mark, which results in Black HarvestBlack Harvest being the superior choice for that build. This changes at level twenty, when you can pick Final CurtainFinal Curtain and get Death ShroudDeath Shroud hits more consistently. However, waiting until level 20 to gain full advantage of Throwing ShadeThrowing Shade is bad, so the synergy is not something that should be considered.

Throwing ShadeThrowing Shade is recommended against compositions with several ranged heroes. This allows you to have a higher uptime of Reaper's MarkReaper's Mark without having to expose yourself too much. Indeed, it does have synergy with Wraith StrikeWraith Strike, but so does Black HarvestBlack Harvest.

Memento MoriMemento Mori has better synergy with Black HarvestBlack Harvest than with Throwing ShadeThrowing Shade simply because of the consistency.

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If you take No One Can Stop DeathNo One Can Stop Death use it once, then you don't die until it comes off cooldown and use it again, will the increased death timers stack or it will be just amplified once? I've been wondering for a while and it's kinda difficult to test (and quite the precarious position haha). I think it should be the latter, though I wouldn't bet on it.

Edited by SteveFrost

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On a Pale Horse gets lots of value in large maps, enough for it to make a contender for best level 1 talent in those maps. Cursed Hollow and Warhead Junction are examples of such maps. Generally, if in doubt, Fear the Reaper is slightly more useful (and is the right choice in small maps anyway), but the ability to move faster while mounted than the average hero shouldn't be underestimated in large maps.

I used to pick Black Harvest at 4, but actually it seems that Die Alone is far better. Black Harvest needs a lot of effort to put into it, and gives no immediate benefits, or even relatively short term benefits like Varian's High King's Quest for example. Die Alone seems worth even if you're going for a "multitarget build" with Tormented Souls -  you'll never know when you have to 1v1 someone, and you simply can't duel alone against a lot of other heroes like Falstad without this talent.

I also think that Angel of Death is very worth it if you already selected Last Rites and don't feel like needing a faster respawn.

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Faster respawn allows you to save a game. Let's say you died in a teamfight near your base. Knowing that you have a respawn and that you're going to die anyways, you've did not use tormenting souls. Instead, you've saved it so you can rejoin a fight. Let's you also have Riding on a Pale Horse. That allows you to get to the fight faster and at full health. This is one of the many examples a respawn could be very powerful. In every other game, consider taking the respawn, especially if you are built to dive real hard.

 

Also, Angel of Death has almost no value, due to Last Rites fairly high minimal cooldown. Tychus' minigun sustain from That's the stuff easily outdoes Angel of Death at several tiers lower, and it's more reliable.

 

However, I do agree that buffing Malthael's percentage damage is worthless. There are many situations where you do want to shutdown a single target hard, especially for chasing.

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On 10/12/2017 at 6:58 PM, Trensicourt said:

Also, Angel of Death has almost no value, due to Last Rites fairly high minimal cooldown.

And that is exactly why Angel of Death is good. It's an instant burst health (unlike Tychus' That's the Stuff) and since Last Rites has fairly low cooldown, you get lots of chances for healing after a fight. If a teamfight overextends, you might even be able to hit Last Rites twice, and getting your health back, twice in the same fight. Although, I agree it's more of a "winmore" talent unlike the instant respawn talent.

Edited by Leadblast

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On 7/21/2017 at 7:14 AM, SteveFrost said:

If you take No One Can Stop DeathNo One Can Stop Death use it once, then you don't die until it comes off cooldown and use it again, will the increased death timers stack or it will be just amplified once? I've been wondering for a while and it's kinda difficult to test (and quite the precarious position haha). I think it should be the latter, though I wouldn't bet on it.

Just once.

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These are the two builds I use based on team composition. Tracer is always the biggest threat for me. Everything else is fair game.

Melee build seeks to put enemies in respawn downtime while lowering his own to create a team number advantage.

Melee Malthael
1 Fear the Reaper
4 Black Harvest
7 Mortality
10 Last Rites
13 Inevitable End
16 Momento Mori
20 No One Can Stop Death

 

Range build seeks to keep pressure up and increase the ability to punish attackers brave enough to advance along with making it easier to finish runners.


Ranged Malthael
1 Fear the Reaper
4 Throwing Shade
7 Cold Hand
10 Last Rites
13 Inevitable End
16 Soul Collector
20 Final Curtain

Having lots of fun with him. Don't usually play the assassins, but this guy's pretty fun. The ability to clear mercs and bosses is a big win for this guy.

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Is now, after Malthaels rework, Tormented Souls still the better ulti or does Last Rites perform better? Also, what level 20 talent is recommended with Last Rites?

ATIsorimentedi Souls

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      We’ve all unintentionally thrown a game on a Boss before. Bosses in Heroes of the Storm are some of the most unforgiving points of contention, and often leave disaster in the wake of their attempted capture. However, capturing the Boss doesn’t have to be unnerving, so long as your team is on the same page and you know what information you’re looking for.
      Have a Reason and Follow Through
      “Bosses aren't typically used for building leads, they're used for finishing games or getting meaningful structure advantages that help you finish the game later,” said HeroesHearth Esports’s Coach Rori "CauthonLuck" Bryant-Raible, who spent the entirety of 2017 competing professionally with the Tempo Storm roster. “Have a reason for taking the Boss and try to get your team on the same page with that reason.”
      Taking a Boss in the early game is generally considered an extremely risky move with very little payoff. The Boss will demand a soft defense but won’t get much done unless your teammates are pushing with it. If you’ve already committed multiple members to taking the Boss and there is no going back now—what do you do next? “A big mistake teams make on Sky Temple is taking the Boss in the midgame and letting it push alone on its own. The best utilization of the Boss is when there is a specific plan you can get your team behind: ‘Take this Boss and push with it’, or ‘take this Boss and go kill top Keep while they defend the Boss on bot Keep’, or ‘take this Boss and then go to the other side of Cursed Hollow and take that Boss and push with it while they defend the first one’. If you take a Boss and let it wander on its own, it's a mistake.”
      Baiting a Fight on Boss
      Yes, the Boss does an excellent job of pushing the lane, creating map pressure, and demanding a response. However, it can be an amazing tool for starting a fight as well. “If you're up—say level 16 to 14—that is usually a good time to start a Boss. If the other team tries to contest you, you're fine taking that fight, so long as everyone on your team gets off the Boss and fights. If they don't contest you, take the Boss and push their Keep with a talent tier advantage. You turn your level lead into getting a Keep down, or if you get a pick while they're defending you might just win the game.”
      Communication is key! When you’re not trying to bait a fight, you should make that as clear as possible to your teammates. “If there are times when you know you're just sneaking the Boss and you can't win a fight if they enemy team finds you, you should try and let your team know that like, 'Hey, we're trying to sneak this, if someone scouts us just back up and give it up unless it's almost dead'.”
      Sneaky, Sneaky, Dead.
      Sneaking Bosses can be good when you have Heroes that have high damage output such as Greymane, Sonya, or Jaina. “A common Boss sneak happens on Tomb of the Spider Queen,” said Cauthonluck. “If you can force the enemy team to clear the bottom Web Weaver last, your team can start Boss on top as soon as the Web Weavers die. It's very easy to kill and capture that Boss before the enemy team can rotate top from the bottom Web Weaver.”
      The Hail Mary Play
      When a game looks all but over, sometimes the only option is to pull a Boss and pray for the best. This fight usually determines the outcome of the game, so make sure your lanes are pushed out enough that catapults or a devious backdoor won’t spell your unfortunate demise before you engage. “The point of this desperation play isn't necessarily to get the Boss. If they don't fight you, you get it for free and it's a little bit of an advantage, but the entire point of that move is to get the enemy team to fight you while they're not quite 20. It's a valid strategy.”
      Should I Try and Solo the Boss? ave a Reason and Follow Through
      Short Answer? No.
      Long Answer: “I would almost never recommend soloing a Boss. Maybe with an Illidan and Abathur combo, it could be worth it—but in general, it takes so long that even if you're capable of doing it, it's far too risky and the map control you give up just isn't worth it. Anytime you have someone capable of soloing a Boss it's generally way more effective to just bring one extra DPS with them and kill the Boss much quicker and make yourself less vulnerable to being invaded. You can still have the same benefit, you're doing the Boss without the enemy team knowing and you can still do that while having three of your Heroes visible on the map instead of four. It's something that really shouldn't be attempted.”
      Thieves in the Night
      It is possible, albeit difficult, for Medivh to steal the Boss with Ley Line Seal. So, you’re casually strolling between mid and bot lane with some of your teammates minding your own business when you catch a glimpse of the enemy Varian wailing away on the Boss. Prepare to invade!
      “Tyrael's Holy Ground is your best friend when it comes to stealing a Boss," said Cauthonluck. "Although, Zarya's Expulsion Zone is also very good. Chen's Wandering Keg can achieve kind of the same thing, although it can be difficult to get all their members off the point long enough to capture it. Falstad's Mighty Gust is another tool, but it can be tricky to setup because it requires hitting the Gust into Barrel Roll from a very specific angle where it sweeps the entire enemy team off and leaves you on the point. Any time you do that you're basically resigning yourself to death. I would be very careful with that one.”
      To Defend or Not to Defend
      What is the best way to go about deciding who needs to defend against a pushing Boss? "Most of the time you're going to want to defend with everybody," said Cauthonluck. "However, if the enemy team isn't pushing with their Boss, it's usually best not to defend with all five but to have your highest DPS Heroes defending while your Warriors and Supports are doing useful things on the map such as soaking, defending other lanes, or doing Mercenary camps."
      As always, do your best to be constantly aware of the variables in play. "If you're one or two creep waves away from getting to 16 or 20, then it can be good to have four people defend and one person on your team go to soak that talent tier before you defend hard."
      Armed with this information, hopefully your next attempt at Boss will be a little more thought out. Check back with us tomorrow for more of Midgame Moves Week when Team Dignitas' Vilhelm "POILK" Flennmark explains how to recover from a lost team fight.