Starym

ToS Mythic Race Day 14: World 3rd Avatar, Stats

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30911-tomb-of-sargeras-raid-preview-offi
 

Today was looking to be a slow day, filled with stat comparisons between the current situation in the Tomb versus the same point in Nighthold's progression, but Chinese guild Alpha had other plans.

Alpha had been going at Fallen Avatar for quite a while, having amassed over 750 wipes before this heartbreaking 0.1% wipe happened:

Normally you'd think, well, that's it, they have it and are going to down it very soon, but it wasn't quite that simple. It took them almost 100 more wipes to actually get that World 3rd, Asia first kill - a grand total of 842 tries. But get it they did and now we all get rewarded as we can actually watch Kil'jaeden progress live, as they'll be streaming it on this channel when they resume raiding. And here's the actual victory clip featuring copious nerdscreams:

After the big kill today stats seem a bit less sexy, but let's get into them anyway. We can take two different approaches to comparing ToS and Nighthold at the same stages of progress - wipe counts and actual time it took each guild to down a boss after the previous one fell. Both have issues: the wipe counts don't take into account the length of each try, so for Fallen Avatar the wipes tended to be faster since guilds could get into phase 2 and practice the hard part fairly quickly; the issue with time spent on a boss is that we can't know how much time the guilds spent actually playing in that time frame. In any case, let's take a look at the stats themselves and then everyone can decide for themselves.

Just to get an idea of where we were at this point in Nighthold, the race was basically over, at least for the top spots. We had three guilds done with the raid (Exorsus, Serenity, Method), having downed Gul'dan and another 7 that had gotten past the penultimate boss of the instance, Elisande, compared to three that have gotten to the final boss in Tomb. The actual wipe counts for Fallen Avatar look like this: Method at 453, Exorsus at 527 and, as mentioned above, Alpha at 842. We'll compare them to both Gul'dan and Elisande wipe counts, just to be thorough, but the Elisande comparison is more apt. It took Exorsus 198 wipes for Elisande and 246 for Gul'dan, while Serenity clocked in 229 and 347 and Method needed 205 and 270 for the same two. In terms of time spent from the previous boss, it took Method 5 days and 7 hours for Fallen Avatar and Exorsus needed almost exactly 8 days. In Nighthold Method took 2 days and 4 hours for Elisande and 5 days 22 hours for Gul'dan. Exorsus needed 2 days and 3 hours / 4 days 22 hours for the same.

So, it seems Fallen Avatar doesn't quite have Gul'dan beat for the No.1 guild to down him compared to the same guild's performance in NH, but pretty much beats every other statistic, and almost doubles all of the stats compared to Elisande.

We've already discussed how the top guilds feel about Kil'jaeden compared to Avatar and in general, and it's safe to assume he'll be seeing another reset and will be getting even bigger numbers than Avatar, making him the hardest and longest living boss of Legion so far, and perhaps even further back (Archimonde also lived three resets back in HFC). Some good news, however, as it seems Blizzard are indeed keeping an eye out for Kil'jaeden balance, as Sco recently tweeted this:

So, there may be some progress to be had on big red after all! In any case, the race continues and you can follow it live over on Method.gg.

PpzC29L.png

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0.1% wipe, good god, that is painful. Anything under 10% is usually depressing but that is just a couple of attacks at best. The collective guilt would have been bad oh if only i applied one more dot, oh if only i refreshed that one ability. Glad they stuck with it and got their kill :D

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Not sure why Asian guilds are even counted as legitimate - it's well known that due to their 'environment' they're allowed to buy perfect gear sets etc. 

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50 minutes ago, MrEdren said:

Not sure why Asian guilds are even counted as legitimate - it's well known that due to their 'environment' they're allowed to buy perfect gear sets etc. 

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on the ever so subtle "environment" comment? The very top guilds are the ones selling the loot runs etc if that's what you meant, not sure what you're referring to.

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The fact that such a huge % of their playerbase comes from PC Bangs/Internet Cafes/Whatever you want to call them where they pay by the minute.  There are various vendors etc specific to the Asian client that allows them to skip, for lack of a better word, the actual game and focus just on raids.

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11 hours ago, Starym said:

And here's the actual victory clip featuring copious nerdscreams:

LMAO!

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1 hour ago, MrEdren said:

The fact that such a huge % of their playerbase comes from PC Bangs/Internet Cafes/Whatever you want to call them where they pay by the minute.  There are various vendors etc specific to the Asian client that allows them to skip, for lack of a better word, the actual game and focus just on raids.

Uh, I feel stupid here since I still don't understand how anything you mentioned has to do with them having an advantage in the race? Genuinely curious as to what you mean. There are in-game vendors that sell the best loot? Afaik the PC bangs and the whole pay per hour instead of per month thing has nothing to do with, well, anything?

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13 minutes ago, Starym said:

Uh, I feel stupid here since I still don't understand how anything you mentioned has to do with them having an advantage in the race? Genuinely curious as to what you mean. There are in-game vendors that sell the best loot? Afaik the PC bangs and the whole pay per hour instead of per month thing has nothing to do with, well, anything?

In other words, blizzard stands to lose those players if they have to put in the same grind time we do, but at per minute/hour rates. So they don't.  They basically get what the old ptr premade toons did - optimized gear with no work required. 

Edited by MrEdren

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16 minutes ago, MrEdren said:

In other words, blizzard stands to lose those players if they have to put in the same grind time we do, but at per minute/hour rates. So they don't.  They basically get what the old ptr premade toons did - optimized gear with no work required. 

Um do you have an actual source on this? And what does that mean that EVERY player on Asia servers get the best gear? That sounds entirely not believable.

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3 hours ago, Starym said:

Um do you have an actual source on this? And what does that mean that EVERY player on Asia servers get the best gear? That sounds entirely not believable.

Its a pretty easy search. But yes the Asian WoW model is a paid per hour instead of a monthly sub since they generally have to play at a cafe or such. Thats why they have not been included in the race for a very long time. The way they get gear and certain drops is different then on normal servers.

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1 hour ago, Whisla said:

Its a pretty easy search. But yes the Asian WoW model is a paid per hour instead of a monthly sub since they generally have to play at a cafe or such. Thats why they have not been included in the race for a very long time. The way they get gear and certain drops is different then on normal servers.

So are some of you people actually going to SAY what's different about the way they get loot? I know their sub model is different, have known it for a long time, that has LITERALLY nothing to do with anything and it was NEVER a reason for them not to be counted in the race. Can you please just say HOW their loot system is different and how it is easier/they get instant best loot/ they have an unfair advantage over US/EU?

Unless of course you're referring to the outdated instance of them getting double resets or double warforged upgrades from back in WoD and MoP, but AFAIK they have 0 advantages over EU and US servers since Legion. Please correct me if I'm wrong with actual facts and not just random statements with "easy to search for" behind it. Both of you keep bringing up the hourly sub model, yet neither has been able to explain wtf that has to do with this perceived advantage? And easy to get loot?

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22 hours ago, Starym said:

So are some of you people actually going to SAY what's different about the way they get loot? I know their sub model is different, have known it for a long time, that has LITERALLY nothing to do with anything and it was NEVER a reason for them not to be counted in the race. Can you please just say HOW their loot system is different and how it is easier/they get instant best loot/ they have an unfair advantage over US/EU?

Unless of course you're referring to the outdated instance of them getting double resets or double warforged upgrades from back in WoD and MoP, but AFAIK they have 0 advantages over EU and US servers since Legion. Please correct me if I'm wrong with actual facts and not just random statements with "easy to search for" behind it. Both of you keep bringing up the hourly sub model, yet neither has been able to explain wtf that has to do with this perceived advantage? And easy to get loot?

Sorry thought it was pretty obvious from what was previously said. But the easy search come up with this quick list.

The way World of Warcraft works in Asia from a raiding standpoint:
Raid lockouts:

  1. 25 man instance bosses have 8% more health and damage; 10 man is the same as in EU/US.
  2. Gear is 8 ilvls higher 
    Even with the 8% scale when compared to the item level and the overall picture the ilvl scale simply gives players a big advantage. 8% increase simply isn't enough of an increase for it to be on the same difficulty level as EU/US WoW.
  3. If that wasn't enough, the "weekly" rest for raids in Asia is only 3 days. Garrosh was killed on the 28th I believe. That's 17 days after the patch went live.
  4. In Asia, there are also different 25 and 10 man lockouts. That's right, you can do both 25 and 10man on heroic in the same "week" or "lockout".
    Putting these 2 together: 17 days on a 3 day raid lockout means 5 resets. Being able (and the guild that got Garrosh down did) to do 25 and 10 man in the same week puts the number to 10 raid resets(2 normal; 8 heroic) while EU/US had 3 (1 normal; 2 heroic).
Edited by Whisla

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2 hours ago, Whisla said:

Sorry thought it was pretty obvious from what was previously said. But the easy search come up with this quick list.

The way World of Warcraft works in Asia from a raiding standpoint:
Raid lockouts:

  1. 25 man instance bosses have 8% more health and damage; 10 man is the same as in EU/US.
  2. Gear is 8 ilvls higher 
    Even with the 8% scale when compared to the item level and the overall picture the ilvl scale simply gives players a big advantage. 8% increase simply isn't enough of an increase for it to be on the same difficulty level as EU/US WoW.
  3. If that wasn't enough, the "weekly" rest for raids in Asia is only 3 days. Garrosh was killed on the 28th I believe. That's 17 days after the patch went live.
  4. In Asia, there are also different 25 and 10 man lockouts. That's right, you can do both 25 and 10man on heroic in the same "week" or "lockout".
    Putting these 2 together: 17 days on a 3 day raid lockout means 5 resets. Being able (and the guild that got Garrosh down did) to do 25 and 10 man in the same week puts the number to 10 raid resets(2 normal; 8 heroic) while EU/US had 3 (1 normal; 2 heroic).

Since when was Mythic Raiding in Legion 10 or 25 man?  Got anything more current than 2 expansions outdated.

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I mean it still applies. the Ilvl still applies. THe boss health still applies, the leveling still applies... dont nit pick the information given if its still gives the reason asked.

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2 hours ago, Whisla said:

I mean it still applies. the Ilvl still applies. THe boss health still applies, the leveling still applies... dont nit pick the information given if its still gives the reason asked.

Actually, if you look, Fallen Avatar has 7.159 Billion Health for both Method (EU) and for Alpha (CN), which you can see Method's WF kill video and Alpha's nerd screams twitch VoD.  After that, you can see the Alpha player mouseover one of the loot items in the dungeon journal, guess what it says?  930+ aka the same as it says in the NA/EU dungeon journal.  BOTH of your points are wrong.

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On 7/13/2017 at 11:23 PM, Orthios said:

Actually, if you look, Fallen Avatar has 7.159 Billion Health for both Method (EU) and for Alpha (CN), which you can see Method's WF kill video and Alpha's nerd screams twitch VoD.  After that, you can see the Alpha player mouseover one of the loot items in the dungeon journal, guess what it says?  930+ aka the same as it says in the NA/EU dungeon journal.  BOTH of your points are wrong.

No? They still have higher ilvls... look it was asked why they arent included and reasons were given. You can keep nit picking but I am not going to keep giving you google searches for you to argue with. Go look for yourself and see how they get there loot.

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5 hours ago, Whisla said:

No? They still have higher ilvls... look it was asked why they arent included and reasons were given. You can keep nit picking but I am not going to keep giving you google searches for you to argue with. Go look for yourself and see how they get there loot.

Burden of Proof always falls on those who claim otherwise.  You have provided 0 search links and 0 links at all to your sources.

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2 hours ago, Orthios said:

Burden of Proof always falls on those who claim otherwise.  You have provided 0 search links and 0 links at all to your sources.

And as of right now you are claiming that what I linked through my search as otherwise. Again go search for yourself, I was just trying to answer the guys question and right now i am still the only one that gave any answer that iv seen to be true.

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22 minutes ago, Whisla said:

And as of right now you are claiming that what I linked through my search as otherwise. Again go search for yourself, I was just trying to answer the guys question and right now i am still the only one that gave any answer that iv seen to be true.

You haven't given us any actual source for what you "linked" (aka copy/pasted from wherever you got it).  What you linked is also around 3 years outdated, given the change to the raid system away from the 10/25 man normal/heroic system to the flex-sized normal/heroic and 20 man mythic.

 

At any rate, this quarrel has gone on too long, so I suggest both you and I drop it, as it seems to me at least that neither of us is going to get much further in convincing the other that they're wrong.

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      Sorry for the delay in responding to this; I wanted to make sure I had all my info 100% correct before I said anything, rather than risk giving you incorrect or incomplete info.
      So first off: the threat bonus from using taunts is not being removed. That's a tooltip change that was made entirely for consistency; every taunt increases threat generation while it's active, but it was only mentioned in the tooltip for a few of them for some reason. So that's just basic housekeeping.
      However, separate from the tooltip change, we are going to experiment a little with reducing how big the threat bonus is on the 8.1 PTR. Currently, it's pretty massive, which is a holdover from when it was first added in Mists of Pandaria. Remember, back then active tanks were dealing huge amounts of damage (and thus, threat) due to the Vengeance mechanic, and so the offtank needed a huge threat boost to be able to keep aggro through tank swaps. That mechanic hasn't existed for a few expansions now.
      Nowadays, in BFA, threat is once again something tanks need to keep in mind, and that massive bonus opens us up to all sorts of wacky issues as DPS (both from tanks and from damage dealers) increases. As one example, there's a risk that we end up in a situation where certain tanks need to use their taunt on cooldown as part of their single target rotation. That would be bad for several fairly obvious reasons.
      So, we're going to try it with a lower bonus on the PTR and see what happens. Our expectation is that there is no tangible effect on your gameplay; you still use taunts exactly how you do now, and they have the same result.