Starym

ToS Mythic Race Day 14: World 3rd Avatar, Stats

Sign in to follow this  

19 posts in this topic

30911-tomb-of-sargeras-raid-preview-offi
 

Today was looking to be a slow day, filled with stat comparisons between the current situation in the Tomb versus the same point in Nighthold's progression, but Chinese guild Alpha had other plans.

Alpha had been going at Fallen Avatar for quite a while, having amassed over 750 wipes before this heartbreaking 0.1% wipe happened:

Normally you'd think, well, that's it, they have it and are going to down it very soon, but it wasn't quite that simple. It took them almost 100 more wipes to actually get that World 3rd, Asia first kill - a grand total of 842 tries. But get it they did and now we all get rewarded as we can actually watch Kil'jaeden progress live, as they'll be streaming it on this channel when they resume raiding. And here's the actual victory clip featuring copious nerdscreams:

After the big kill today stats seem a bit less sexy, but let's get into them anyway. We can take two different approaches to comparing ToS and Nighthold at the same stages of progress - wipe counts and actual time it took each guild to down a boss after the previous one fell. Both have issues: the wipe counts don't take into account the length of each try, so for Fallen Avatar the wipes tended to be faster since guilds could get into phase 2 and practice the hard part fairly quickly; the issue with time spent on a boss is that we can't know how much time the guilds spent actually playing in that time frame. In any case, let's take a look at the stats themselves and then everyone can decide for themselves.

Just to get an idea of where we were at this point in Nighthold, the race was basically over, at least for the top spots. We had three guilds done with the raid (Exorsus, Serenity, Method), having downed Gul'dan and another 7 that had gotten past the penultimate boss of the instance, Elisande, compared to three that have gotten to the final boss in Tomb. The actual wipe counts for Fallen Avatar look like this: Method at 453, Exorsus at 527 and, as mentioned above, Alpha at 842. We'll compare them to both Gul'dan and Elisande wipe counts, just to be thorough, but the Elisande comparison is more apt. It took Exorsus 198 wipes for Elisande and 246 for Gul'dan, while Serenity clocked in 229 and 347 and Method needed 205 and 270 for the same two. In terms of time spent from the previous boss, it took Method 5 days and 7 hours for Fallen Avatar and Exorsus needed almost exactly 8 days. In Nighthold Method took 2 days and 4 hours for Elisande and 5 days 22 hours for Gul'dan. Exorsus needed 2 days and 3 hours / 4 days 22 hours for the same.

So, it seems Fallen Avatar doesn't quite have Gul'dan beat for the No.1 guild to down him compared to the same guild's performance in NH, but pretty much beats every other statistic, and almost doubles all of the stats compared to Elisande.

We've already discussed how the top guilds feel about Kil'jaeden compared to Avatar and in general, and it's safe to assume he'll be seeing another reset and will be getting even bigger numbers than Avatar, making him the hardest and longest living boss of Legion so far, and perhaps even further back (Archimonde also lived three resets back in HFC). Some good news, however, as it seems Blizzard are indeed keeping an eye out for Kil'jaeden balance, as Sco recently tweeted this:

So, there may be some progress to be had on big red after all! In any case, the race continues and you can follow it live over on Method.gg.

PpzC29L.png

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

0.1% wipe, good god, that is painful. Anything under 10% is usually depressing but that is just a couple of attacks at best. The collective guilt would have been bad oh if only i applied one more dot, oh if only i refreshed that one ability. Glad they stuck with it and got their kill :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure why Asian guilds are even counted as legitimate - it's well known that due to their 'environment' they're allowed to buy perfect gear sets etc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, MrEdren said:

Not sure why Asian guilds are even counted as legitimate - it's well known that due to their 'environment' they're allowed to buy perfect gear sets etc. 

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on the ever so subtle "environment" comment? The very top guilds are the ones selling the loot runs etc if that's what you meant, not sure what you're referring to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact that such a huge % of their playerbase comes from PC Bangs/Internet Cafes/Whatever you want to call them where they pay by the minute.  There are various vendors etc specific to the Asian client that allows them to skip, for lack of a better word, the actual game and focus just on raids.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Starym said:

And here's the actual victory clip featuring copious nerdscreams:

LMAO!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MrEdren said:

The fact that such a huge % of their playerbase comes from PC Bangs/Internet Cafes/Whatever you want to call them where they pay by the minute.  There are various vendors etc specific to the Asian client that allows them to skip, for lack of a better word, the actual game and focus just on raids.

Uh, I feel stupid here since I still don't understand how anything you mentioned has to do with them having an advantage in the race? Genuinely curious as to what you mean. There are in-game vendors that sell the best loot? Afaik the PC bangs and the whole pay per hour instead of per month thing has nothing to do with, well, anything?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Starym said:

Uh, I feel stupid here since I still don't understand how anything you mentioned has to do with them having an advantage in the race? Genuinely curious as to what you mean. There are in-game vendors that sell the best loot? Afaik the PC bangs and the whole pay per hour instead of per month thing has nothing to do with, well, anything?

In other words, blizzard stands to lose those players if they have to put in the same grind time we do, but at per minute/hour rates. So they don't.  They basically get what the old ptr premade toons did - optimized gear with no work required. 

Edited by MrEdren

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, MrEdren said:

In other words, blizzard stands to lose those players if they have to put in the same grind time we do, but at per minute/hour rates. So they don't.  They basically get what the old ptr premade toons did - optimized gear with no work required. 

Um do you have an actual source on this? And what does that mean that EVERY player on Asia servers get the best gear? That sounds entirely not believable.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Starym said:

Um do you have an actual source on this? And what does that mean that EVERY player on Asia servers get the best gear? That sounds entirely not believable.

Its a pretty easy search. But yes the Asian WoW model is a paid per hour instead of a monthly sub since they generally have to play at a cafe or such. Thats why they have not been included in the race for a very long time. The way they get gear and certain drops is different then on normal servers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Whisla said:

Its a pretty easy search. But yes the Asian WoW model is a paid per hour instead of a monthly sub since they generally have to play at a cafe or such. Thats why they have not been included in the race for a very long time. The way they get gear and certain drops is different then on normal servers.

So are some of you people actually going to SAY what's different about the way they get loot? I know their sub model is different, have known it for a long time, that has LITERALLY nothing to do with anything and it was NEVER a reason for them not to be counted in the race. Can you please just say HOW their loot system is different and how it is easier/they get instant best loot/ they have an unfair advantage over US/EU?

Unless of course you're referring to the outdated instance of them getting double resets or double warforged upgrades from back in WoD and MoP, but AFAIK they have 0 advantages over EU and US servers since Legion. Please correct me if I'm wrong with actual facts and not just random statements with "easy to search for" behind it. Both of you keep bringing up the hourly sub model, yet neither has been able to explain wtf that has to do with this perceived advantage? And easy to get loot?

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Starym said:

So are some of you people actually going to SAY what's different about the way they get loot? I know their sub model is different, have known it for a long time, that has LITERALLY nothing to do with anything and it was NEVER a reason for them not to be counted in the race. Can you please just say HOW their loot system is different and how it is easier/they get instant best loot/ they have an unfair advantage over US/EU?

Unless of course you're referring to the outdated instance of them getting double resets or double warforged upgrades from back in WoD and MoP, but AFAIK they have 0 advantages over EU and US servers since Legion. Please correct me if I'm wrong with actual facts and not just random statements with "easy to search for" behind it. Both of you keep bringing up the hourly sub model, yet neither has been able to explain wtf that has to do with this perceived advantage? And easy to get loot?

Sorry thought it was pretty obvious from what was previously said. But the easy search come up with this quick list.

The way World of Warcraft works in Asia from a raiding standpoint:
Raid lockouts:

  1. 25 man instance bosses have 8% more health and damage; 10 man is the same as in EU/US.
  2. Gear is 8 ilvls higher 
    Even with the 8% scale when compared to the item level and the overall picture the ilvl scale simply gives players a big advantage. 8% increase simply isn't enough of an increase for it to be on the same difficulty level as EU/US WoW.
  3. If that wasn't enough, the "weekly" rest for raids in Asia is only 3 days. Garrosh was killed on the 28th I believe. That's 17 days after the patch went live.
  4. In Asia, there are also different 25 and 10 man lockouts. That's right, you can do both 25 and 10man on heroic in the same "week" or "lockout".
    Putting these 2 together: 17 days on a 3 day raid lockout means 5 resets. Being able (and the guild that got Garrosh down did) to do 25 and 10 man in the same week puts the number to 10 raid resets(2 normal; 8 heroic) while EU/US had 3 (1 normal; 2 heroic).
Edited by Whisla

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Whisla said:

Sorry thought it was pretty obvious from what was previously said. But the easy search come up with this quick list.

The way World of Warcraft works in Asia from a raiding standpoint:
Raid lockouts:

  1. 25 man instance bosses have 8% more health and damage; 10 man is the same as in EU/US.
  2. Gear is 8 ilvls higher 
    Even with the 8% scale when compared to the item level and the overall picture the ilvl scale simply gives players a big advantage. 8% increase simply isn't enough of an increase for it to be on the same difficulty level as EU/US WoW.
  3. If that wasn't enough, the "weekly" rest for raids in Asia is only 3 days. Garrosh was killed on the 28th I believe. That's 17 days after the patch went live.
  4. In Asia, there are also different 25 and 10 man lockouts. That's right, you can do both 25 and 10man on heroic in the same "week" or "lockout".
    Putting these 2 together: 17 days on a 3 day raid lockout means 5 resets. Being able (and the guild that got Garrosh down did) to do 25 and 10 man in the same week puts the number to 10 raid resets(2 normal; 8 heroic) while EU/US had 3 (1 normal; 2 heroic).

Since when was Mythic Raiding in Legion 10 or 25 man?  Got anything more current than 2 expansions outdated.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean it still applies. the Ilvl still applies. THe boss health still applies, the leveling still applies... dont nit pick the information given if its still gives the reason asked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Whisla said:

I mean it still applies. the Ilvl still applies. THe boss health still applies, the leveling still applies... dont nit pick the information given if its still gives the reason asked.

Actually, if you look, Fallen Avatar has 7.159 Billion Health for both Method (EU) and for Alpha (CN), which you can see Method's WF kill video and Alpha's nerd screams twitch VoD.  After that, you can see the Alpha player mouseover one of the loot items in the dungeon journal, guess what it says?  930+ aka the same as it says in the NA/EU dungeon journal.  BOTH of your points are wrong.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/13/2017 at 11:23 PM, Orthios said:

Actually, if you look, Fallen Avatar has 7.159 Billion Health for both Method (EU) and for Alpha (CN), which you can see Method's WF kill video and Alpha's nerd screams twitch VoD.  After that, you can see the Alpha player mouseover one of the loot items in the dungeon journal, guess what it says?  930+ aka the same as it says in the NA/EU dungeon journal.  BOTH of your points are wrong.

No? They still have higher ilvls... look it was asked why they arent included and reasons were given. You can keep nit picking but I am not going to keep giving you google searches for you to argue with. Go look for yourself and see how they get there loot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Whisla said:

No? They still have higher ilvls... look it was asked why they arent included and reasons were given. You can keep nit picking but I am not going to keep giving you google searches for you to argue with. Go look for yourself and see how they get there loot.

Burden of Proof always falls on those who claim otherwise.  You have provided 0 search links and 0 links at all to your sources.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Orthios said:

Burden of Proof always falls on those who claim otherwise.  You have provided 0 search links and 0 links at all to your sources.

And as of right now you are claiming that what I linked through my search as otherwise. Again go search for yourself, I was just trying to answer the guys question and right now i am still the only one that gave any answer that iv seen to be true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Whisla said:

And as of right now you are claiming that what I linked through my search as otherwise. Again go search for yourself, I was just trying to answer the guys question and right now i am still the only one that gave any answer that iv seen to be true.

You haven't given us any actual source for what you "linked" (aka copy/pasted from wherever you got it).  What you linked is also around 3 years outdated, given the change to the raid system away from the 10/25 man normal/heroic system to the flex-sized normal/heroic and 20 man mythic.

 

At any rate, this quarrel has gone on too long, so I suggest both you and I drop it, as it seems to me at least that neither of us is going to get much further in convincing the other that they're wrong.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Starym
      We have some raid fixes today, with Opulence and Rastakhan getting a bit easier, with Jaina getting Chilling Touch nerfed, but also no longer affected by Da Voodo Shuffle. There's also some Druid PvP fixes, mostly focused on Resto and more.
      February 20 (source)
      Dungeons and Raids
      Battle of Dazar’alor Opulence Unleashed Rage (opal gem buff) and Earthen Roots (emerald gem buff) now also increase damage dealt by pets. King Rastakhan Fixed a bug that caused the encounter to unintentionally reset after resurrecting a player who died in the Death Realm. Lady Jaina Proudmoore Chilling Touch duration reduced by 20%. Chilling Touch is no longer affected by Da Voodoo Shuffle. Fixed a bug that caused Freezing Blood to be sometimes applied to players who correctly had allies nearby, on Mythic Difficulty. Items
      Fixed a bug that caused Enveloping Protection to be removed early when a target was hit with an attack that would fully absorb the shield. Player versus Player
      Druid Resolved an issue that caused Thorns to deal damage when the target is struck by unintended spells such as Eye for an Eye, Frost Fever, or Virulent Plague. Restoration Fixed a bug that caused Soul of the Forest to increase the healing of Germination applied by Nourish without being consumed. Fixed a bug that allowed Nourish to apply two copies of Lifebloom to a target. Quests
      Flushed out a bug that prevented players from always being properly credited for objectives on "Flush Them Out". Previous hotfixes.
    • By Stan
      In order to address a bug that caused Open Palm Strikes to stop proccing because the main Fists of Fury target has died, the spell is going to be changed in an upcoming Patch 8.1.5 build to pick a new primary target, similar to how Demon Hunter's Eye Beam works, meaning it will pick the closest thing to you unless you already have a different target.
      Blizzard (Source)
      In the next PTR build*, we’re looking to test this change:
      Now, If your primary target of Fists of Fury is dead or despawns, a new primary target will be picked for the purposes of dealing bonus damage to the primary target. It will pick the closest thing to you, unless you already have something else targeted that’s going to be hit by the damage spell. So this is similar to how Eye Beam picks a target. It should also address Open Palm Strikes (Azerite Trait) sometimes stopping proccing because your main Fists of Fury target has died.
      *This should be soon, but it may be in the public build following the very next one.
    • By Stan
      While this may only affect a very small portion of players, we have some blue posts dealing with faction changing and unlocking the new 8.1.5 Allied Races.
      If you're planning to switch factions and wonder how that's going to affect unlocking Kul Tiran Humans and Zandalari Trolls, keep in mind that:
      Reputations will switch over, meaning if you're Exalted  with Proudmoore Admiralty, your reputation standing with The Zandalari Empire should be Exalted after the transfer as well (needs confirmation). The same goes for 7th Legion/Honorbound. You will be automatically Exalted, although you will have to complete the whole War Campaign on the new faction again. A Nation United an Zandalar Forever! achievements do not transfer and you must complete your faction's entire story to get the achievement. Find out more about the upcoming Allied Races in our Patch 8.1.5 content hub.
      Blizzard (Source)
      I’ve completed all the above on my only 120 character. If I was to faction change to alliance now, would I still be able to unlock Zandalari, or do I need to wait till the unlock quest chain is live before faction changing?
      Sorry for the delay, but I got some details related to characters that swap factions and these requirements! If you do a faction change your reputations will switch over but quest completion does not, so if you want to qualify to unlock the kul tiran/zandalari you will need to do the main storyline for that continent and faction.
      Note that for the War Campaign aspect, if you got to exalted with 7th Legion/Honorbound then you can just do all the chapters without any delays to gain more reputation.
    • By Stan
      The Zandalari Troll racial ability Embrace of the Loa requires the character to make an offering near a shrine within Dazar'alor to gain one of its passive effects. Talking to guards in Dazar'alor will mark the shrine location on the map and the effect can be reset every 5 days.
      One of the Zandalari racials is really unique and requires player interaction. You're going to find 6 shrines in Dazar'alor and making an offering near a shrine will activate one passive effect for your character which can be changed every 5 days.
      Embrace of the Loa - Choose your Loa by making an offering at Loa Shrines around the world. Each Loa offers unique powers. Guards in Dazar'alor will tell you where Shrines can be found.
      Check out our Patch 8.1.5 content hub to learn more about Zandalari Trolls!
      Shrine of Akunda

      Shrine of Bwonsamdi

      Shrine of Gonk

      Shrine of Kimbul

      Shrine of Krag'wa

      Shrine of Paku

    • By Stan
      This week's events include Burning Crusade Timewalking, PvP Brawl: Southshore vs. Tarren Mill, and the Hatching of Hippogryphs micro-holiday.
      Highlights
      It's Burning Crusade Timewalking week and you can clear Black Temple bosses for ilvl 385+ loot. Reins of the Infinite Timereaver has a chance to drop from any Timewalking boss as Personal Loot. Don't forget to complete this week's quest for a cache containing a piece of Normal difficulty Dazar'alor gear. The final Dazar'alor LFR Wing opens next week and Blizzard posted an official preview of Kul Tiran Humans and Zandalari Trolls earlier today. No official release date for Patch 8.1.5 has been announced yet. Mythic Keystone Affixes
      Fortified Sanguine Necrotic Reaping Weekly Quests
      Complete 5 Timewalking dungeons for A Burning Path Through Time to receive a cache with a piece of Normal difficulty Dazar'alor gear. Azerite for the Alliance & Azerite for the Horde: Collect 36,000 Azerite from Island Expeditions to receive 2,500 Azerite and 1,500 reputation with Honorbound/7th Legion. Island Expeditions
      The following islands are on rotation this week:
      Dread Chain Jorundall Verdant Wilds World Boss
      Warbringer Yenajz
      Dark whispers shroud Stormsong Valley, as rumors of eldritch creatures spread throughout the countryside and families mark their doors with runes from the local scribes. Often dismissed as exaggeration, sometimes housewives' tales fall far short of the true horrors that lurk in the realm beyond our sight.

      Overview
      Warbringer Yenajz periodically calls down Reality Tear and draws players in to the center of Endless Abyss.
       Damage Dealers
      Avoid Reality Tear as they impact the ground. Quickly move away from Warbringer Yenajz when he casts Endless Abyss. Void Nova inflicts heavy unavoidable damage.  Healers
      Avoid Reality Tear as they impact the ground. Quickly move away from Warbringer Yenajz when he casts Endless Abyss. Void Nova inflicts heavy unavoidable damage.  Tanks
      Avoid Reality Tear as they impact the ground. Quickly move away from Warbringer Yenajz when he casts Endless Abyss. Void Nova inflicts heavy unavoidable damage. Loot Table
      Amice of the Rending Abyss Spaulders of the Enveloping Maw Wristwraps of Warped Reality Existence-Shattering Gauntlets Shadow-Wreathed Gloves Leggings of the Endless Void Yenajz's Chitinous Stompers Band of Intense Gravitation Prism of Dark Intensity World Events
      Burning Crusade Timewalking (February 19th - February 26th)
      Blizzard (Source)
      ILLIDAN AWAITS
      Head to Outland to face Illidan and his cohorts once more in The Black Temple!
      The Black Temple raid is available throughout the Burning Crusade Timewalking event. The difficulty is set to Normal and, like any Normal-level raid, will not be available through Raid Finder. To take on this challenge, you’ll need to get your guild or a group of friends together, or head to Group Finder > Premade Groups. The raid scales for your group size (between 10 — 30 players) and your level and gear will be scaled back to match the raid’s challenges.
      Want to relive the time you first defeated Teron Gorefiend? Face (face, face) the Reliquary of Souls once more? Witness the showdown between Maiev and Illidan before the final fight? Now’s your chance. Inside you can earn transmog sets, the pets you need for Raiding With Leashes III, a Music Roll: The Burning Legion, and gear drops. And for Demon Hunters, there’s the enticing possibility of obtaining the legendary Warglaives of Azzinoth. Are you, this time, prepared?
      DUNGEONS IN THE BURNING CRUSADE TIMEWALKING
      All week, open Group Finder (default hotkey: i) and then select Dungeon Finder and Timewalking in the Type dropdown. When you hit ‘Find Group’, you’ll be matched up with other players and sent to one of the following Heroic dungeons:
      The Arcatraz The Black Morass Magister’s Terrace Mana-Tombs Shattered Halls The Slave Pens Your character and items will be scaled down to a power level fitting for the challenge at hand, but bosses will yield loot appropriate for your natural level. Timewalking dungeons also have a chance to drop items that usually drop when you run them on Heroic, and you’ll earn reputation with a faction that is interested in the dungeon. For example, when you Timewalk through The Slave Pens, you’ll earn reputation with the Cenarion Expedition, which could open access to purchasing the Cenarion War Hippogryph mount.
      Look for the following all week long:
      Chronicler Shoopa in Zuldazar or Chronicler Toopa in Boralus has a quest for you has a quest for you. Or, if you forget to pick it up there, you can start it from within the Adventure Journal. Quest requirement: Complete 5 Timewalking dungeons. Rewards: Artifact Power and one loot box containing a piece of gear from Normal difficulty Battle of Dazar'alor. EVERY WEEK
      The Bonus Events system consists of a rotating schedule of different activities, currently scheduled to run each week beginning on Tuesdays. Each Bonus Event grants a passive bonus to a particular game activity and offers a once-per-event quest with a noteworthy reward for accomplishing a related goal. The in-game calendar can serve as your one-stop reference for the event schedule. The Adventure Guide also offers a direct link to active Bonus Events, allowing you to easily accept any associated quests.
      PvP Brawl: Southshore vs. Tarren Mill (February 19th - February 26th)
      Two towns clash in this week's PvP Brawl —Southshore vs. Tarren Mill running February 19 - 26.
      Blizzard (Source)
      Originally introduced as a part of the World of Warcraft 10-Year Anniversary event, this Brawl harkens back to the early days of WoW PvP, with an epic battle between the two towns of Tarren Mill and Southshore. In this game of war, you’ll need to work as a team and deplete your foes’ resources to claim victory.
      Hatching of the Hippogryphs (February 23rd)
      Today is the day that the Frayfeather hippogryphs hatch. Head to Frayfeather Highlands in Feralas to witness the spectacle firsthand!
      Love is in the Air (February 12th - February 26th)
      Love is in the Air is here through February 26. You can learn more about 2018 updates in our Love is in the Air guide.