heroes Six Aspects of HotS That Need Improvement

[Valhalen 1,485]

5 minutes ago, Blainie said:

Any time there has been this kind of thing suggested for other games, there has often been hints at the idea that the code just currently doesn't allow it, or that it's old code and so can't be upgraded without being remade.

Yes, pretty much the same reason why we will never get an engine upgrade for WoW.

[Valks 2,387]

4 minutes ago, Valhalen said:

Yes, pretty much the same reason why we will never get an engine upgrade for WoW.

Yep. Time invested etc., they might as well just wait for WoW 2 or Warcraft 4.

[Warper 12]

1 hour ago, Blainie said:

Yep. Time invested etc., they might as well just wait for WoW 2 or Warcraft 4.

WARCRAFT 4!!!

Sorry, just hearing that in my head got too excited.

Yea, for HOTS though I could see them addressing the engine issues... eventually. As Oxygen pointed out Blizzard has always been quite loyal to their games. (Seriously, how is Diablo ll still a thing?)

[Migol 433]

One thing not on the list is Voice chat; a premade group (even of just 2 players) has an enormous advantage if they're on discord/skype/other.    It's a fast paced team game where they've emphasized the team aspect even more than other Mobas.   And yet the only in game way to communicate fast is a very limited pinging system or trying to type stuff out in a hurry.

[Oxygen 446]

8 minutes ago, Migol said:

One thing not on the list is Voice chat; a premade group (even of just 2 players) has an enormous advantage if they're on discord/skype/other.    It's a fast paced team game where they've emphasized the team aspect even more than other Mobas.   And yet the only in game way to communicate fast is a very limited pinging system or trying to type stuff out in a hurry.

Battle.net has new voice chat features, so I'm assuming they'll touch upon it at BlizzCon.

[Brutalis 165]

16 hours ago, Blainie said:

Any time there has been this kind of thing suggested for other games, there has often been hints at the idea that the code just currently doesn't allow it, or that it's old code and so can't be upgraded without being remade.

Quite recently Dota 2 was remade from the ground up in a different engine. If Valve can manage it then so can Blizz. I realise it's tremendous effort to do it but it needs to be done.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Brutalis

[Valks 2,387]

1 hour ago, Brutalis said:

Quite recently Dota 2 was remade from the ground up in a different engine. If Valve can manage it then so can Blizz. I realise it's tremendous effort to do it but it needs to be done.

Wasn't the Source 2 Engine specifically made to allow for VR games to be made and the like? They just tweaked it to allow DOTA to run on it too? Might be less incentive for Blizzard to make a new engine than there was for Valve.

[positiv2 955]

1 hour ago, Blainie said:

Wasn't the Source 2 Engine specifically made to allow for VR games to be made and the like? They just tweaked it to allow DOTA to run on it too? Might be less incentive for Blizzard to make a new engine than there was for Valve.

If I recall correctly, the Source 2 engine was created to make content creation process faster for both Valve and mod creators (resulting in Custom Games). The new engine also improved performance and included a new physics engine. All of these would be great in HotS.

By the way, congratulations for 10k posts!

[Valks 2,387]

20 minutes ago, positiv2 said:

If I recall correctly, the Source 2 engine was created to make content creation process faster for both Valve and mod creators (resulting in Custom Games). The new engine also improved performance and included a new physics engine. All of these would be great in HotS.

I do wonder how much it'd cost to develop a new one - I assume they'd hold off on it until they need it for WoW 2, or something large like that. Maybe even D4.

20 minutes ago, positiv2 said:

By the way, congratulations for 10k posts!

Thanks! Only 90 more to go until 100k :D

[Voltorocks 40]

So, #2-#6 are just straightforward, "this is a feature that everyone agrees needs to be put it you just need to pony up the labor hours and do it." totally agree with them, and I also sympathize with the technical difficulties on some of them (NOT hero trading in draft - no sympathy there. WHY ISN'T THIS IN ALREADY).

 

#1 could be its own whole article. In general I agree with a lot of your small points, but not as much with your proposed solutions.  This seems to be a "fix QM in service of the ideal of preparing all players for ranked," when actual player preferences (i.e.; the number of QM games almost certainly outstrips all other pvp play modes combined many times over) show that the *vast* majority of pvp players prefer this mode above all else.

QM certainly needs fixes, but I think it's better to fix the QM experience in a standalone way that doesn't just turn it into draft lite (tm). Namely, team comp considerations should be weighted *much* more heavily that hey are now when matching teams together. currently, you very frequently get comically mismatched teams where the only possible explanation is that they were balanced for player ELO first and comp second (or not at all). I could go on all day about how they could fix this with new sub-classes and whatnot, but that's been done elsewhere and I won't re-tread.

The REALLY brave solution that I don't think they'd actually ever implement would be to take a tip from the LoL Devs and abandon the idea of "dedicated" healers (and maybe tanks too?). give every support a full rework that either makes them a) some other class entirely (looking at you, tassadar)or b) amps up their power budget on everything else to where healing is a niche trick that can't be relied upon all the time (look at Soraka or Nami's healing in LoL) rather than a way to reliably keep an entire team healed up through infinite poke.

[Valks 2,387]

10 hours ago, Voltorocks said:

The REALLY brave solution that I don't think they'd actually ever implement would be to take a tip from the LoL Devs and abandon the idea of "dedicated" healers (and maybe tanks too?). give every support a full rework that either makes them a) some other class entirely (looking at you, tassadar)or b) amps up their power budget on everything else to where healing is a niche trick that can't be relied upon all the time (look at Soraka or Nami's healing in LoL) rather than a way to reliably keep an entire team healed up through infinite poke.

Surely even LoL does maintain the idea of dedicated healers? Look at Taric, for example. The only reason he can ever be something other than a healer/support is because of item builds, which HoTS just doesn't have the ability to implement. 

[Oxygen 446]

On 10/25/2017 at 6:45 PM, Voltorocks said:

The REALLY brave solution that I don't think they'd actually ever implement would be to take a tip from the LoL Devs and abandon the idea of "dedicated" healers (and maybe tanks too?). give every support a full rework that either makes them a) some other class entirely (looking at you, tassadar)or b) amps up their power budget on everything else to where healing is a niche trick that can't be relied upon all the time (look at Soraka or Nami's healing in LoL) rather than a way to reliably keep an entire team healed up through infinite poke.

The initial draft of the article discussed this solution, but I opted to remove it for something more realistic and less cocky. They'll never rework half the heroes when the entire game is designed to include (and balanced for) healers.

I like DotA's system the most; Heroes bring widely unique things to the table, and it's up to you to make them work. Heroes', uh, heroes are pretty bland and quite homogeneous for the most part, and are generally just played because they're the best at their role, and not because they bring something unique to whatever strategy you're trying to pull off. Of course there are some exceptions, like Abathur and so on.

[VinsX 33]

Great points! And I'm inspired by your discussion about ai picking random talents. I think they could add a feature which allows you to add preset talent plans in your loadouts. And an in-game hotkey would be asigned to activate your plan, say Ctrl+A for example. You can still pick talents with Ctrl+num, or you can use Ctrl+A to autopick. And there could be a golden boarder or something around your preset talents as a reminder. 

So ai will auto pick your preset plan so your game won't be ruined by mis-picked talents by ai if your're unintentionally DCed. Another benefit is that this may also help reduce the chance of mis-picking by players themselves and enables quick pick if you happen to lvl up in the middle of a fight. 

As for draft mode, just add the hero swap feature together with this. Players will be given some time after the draft to swap and select loadouts.

Now the problem will be that there're too few slots. I don't know why Blizzard won't give us more slots, not even an option for them, but if it's due to server capicity or something, at least give more slots to the heroes in your favourite list? I think that's only reasonable.

[Valks 2,387]

2 hours ago, VinsX said:

Great points! And I'm inspired by your discussion about ai picking random talents. I think they could add a feature which allows you to add preset talent plans in your loadouts. And an in-game hotkey would be asigned to activate your plan, say Ctrl+A for example. You can still pick talents with Ctrl+num, or you can use Ctrl+A to autopick. And there could be a golden boarder or something around your preset talents as a reminder. 

So ai will auto pick your preset plan so your game won't be ruined by mis-picked talents by ai if your're unintentionally DCed. Another benefit is that this may also help reduce the chance of mis-picking by players themselves and enables quick pick if you happen to lvl up in the middle of a fight. 

The only problem with this solution is that it only works if your present loadout works for each situation. There are heroes that have very varied talent choices depending on who they face (melee or ranged, stealth or no stealth, etc.), so I think an option to simply reset AI talents would be better IMO.

[Valhalen 1,485]

4 hours ago, Blainie said:

The only problem with this solution is that it only works if your present loadout works for each situation. There are heroes that have very varied talent choices depending on who they face (melee or ranged, stealth or no stealth, etc.), so I think an option to simply reset AI talents would be better IMO.

It would be the best solution, but that would present problems on its own too.

For example, what if when you reconnect the AI just used the Hero's Heroic Ability? Then you go through the process of re-picking all talents while the Heroic is on cooldown? Would you have access to your Heroic Ability straight up? That can be potentially broken:

- Say you're playing Thrall and disconnect.

- The Thrall AI picks Earthquake at level 10.

- You reconnect, but right before that Thrall has used Earthquake, thus triggering its cooldown.

- You re-pick all talents again, but you go for Sundering. Would that allow you to use Sundering straight up or would trigger its cooldown to essentially preventing Thrall from using two Heroics in succession?

[Valks 2,387]

1 hour ago, Valhalen said:

You re-pick all talents again, but you go for Sundering. Would that allow you to use Sundering straight up or would trigger its cooldown to essentially preventing Thrall from using two Heroics in succession?

I would hope they'd implement a %-based cooldown system for it, where the cooldown remaining on Sundering would be the same % as on Earthquake, regardless of the actual time.

[VinsX 33]

1 hour ago, Blainie said:

I would hope they'd implement a %-based cooldown system for it, where the cooldown remaining on Sundering would be the same % as on Earthquake, regardless of the actual time.

I don't think there is any real solution to AI auto-picking. But I genuinely think preset talents & quick pick can work on its own as a convenience feature. The AI thing is more of a compromising solution as an extra.

One problem with talent reset with %based CD would be the ults that can store charges. Valla for example, if AI used Strafe and you return and reset and pick Rain when the CD is half way. Will you get 1 charge and full CD for the second charge, or no charge and halfway to gain 2 charges? And what about the other way around?

Another problem, quest talents.

And also, some people may use it for"cheating"for heroes with considerable CD timer differential between their ults. Kel'Thuzad for example, you use Blast and DC, then reconnect and reset to pick Fissure. And DC and reset again to pick Blast, and it should be almost up. So you'll have Blast on a 20-ish seconds CD. It's not a big impact perhaps, but as long as it's out there, there will be people trying to do it.

[Valhalen 1,485]

3 minutes ago, VinsX said:

I don't think there is any real solution to AI auto-picking. But I genuinely think preset talents & quick pick can work on its own as a convenience feature. The AI thing is more of a compromising solution as an extra.

One problem with talent reset with %based CD would be the ults that can store charges. Valla for example, if AI used Strafe and you return and reset and pick Rain when the CD is half way. Will you get 1 charge and full CD for the second charge, or no charge and halfway to gain 2 charges? And what about the other way around?

Another problem, quest talents.

And also, some people may use it for"cheating"for heroes with considerable CD timer differential between their ults. Kel'Thuzad for example, you use Blast and DC, then reconnect and reset to pick Fissure. And DC and reset again to pick Blast, and it should be almost up. So you'll have Blast on a 20-ish seconds CD. It's not a big impact perhaps, but as long as it's out there, there will be people trying to do it.

Yeah, pretty much like I said. MANY PROBLEMS. Quest Talents would be a pain in the ass too. Imagine getting near your full stacks to complete that one power-spike quest talent, then getting DC'ed and losing it all because of the reset.

[Voltorocks 40]

On 10/26/2017 at 5:30 AM, Blainie said:

Surely even LoL does maintain the idea of dedicated healers? Look at Taric, for example. The only reason he can ever be something other than a healer/support is because of item builds, which HoTS just doesn't have the ability to implement. 

in the sense that these champs' main "trick" is healer, yes. and there are certainly many dedicated support champs. but the fact even on the *most* healing-centric heroes, it's not on the level of Hots healers - heals are for clutch saves or slow, passive lane sustain *only.* there is nothing even in the ballpark of malfurion's mobile top-off station Q or rehgars full-heal R. 

basically their idea design wise is to give healing a very high power budget so that even dedicated healers have very little. the idea is to make poke more meaningful and lead to engages instead of just resulting in passive poke-and-heal cycles.

[Valks 2,387]

On 11/2/2017 at 12:37 AM, Voltorocks said:

Basically their idea design wise is to give healing a very high power budget so that even dedicated healers have very little. the idea is to make poke more meaningful and lead to engages instead of just resulting in passive poke-and-heal cycles.

Would you say quest talents only add to that more, though? Especially ones that are based on not dying (Kael) - there is no reason to engage until your quest is done, so you do nothing but poke.

[Voltorocks 40]

On 11/6/2017 at 6:05 AM, Blainie said:

Would you say quest talents only add to that more, though? Especially ones that are based on not dying (Kael) - there is no reason to engage until your quest is done, so you do nothing but poke.

I actually don't think that these types of quests actually affect this issue - it's not a question of whether or not there's a poke game, it's a question of whether or not poke actually *matters.*

To use your example of Kael: In a healer heavy game like ours, Kael doesn't have to choose (as much) between safe play or aggressive play: if he steps out too far and eats a chromie combo. medic or malf can top him off in a few seconds as long as he can reposition before being finished off. take healers out of the equation, and chromie's well-executed poke will likely force kael to B, giving her team a great window to engage or take an objective.

the disease of the "endless poke-war" is *only* possible with strong healers. Without them, even the most passive poke DPS players will eventually whittle down an opponent and open a window to engage when they either get picked or are forced to B.

TLDR on quests like Kael's: the talents are only interesting if the players has to choose a balance between safe, suboptimal play and risky but aggressive play. Healers make it easier to have you cake and eat it too.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Voltorocks

[Valhalen 1,485]

9 hours ago, Voltorocks said:

the disease of the "endless poke-war" is *only* possible with strong healers. Without them, even the most passive poke DPS players will eventually whittle down an opponent and open a window to engage when they either get picked or are forced to B.

Yes, but without that it would a game of Hearthstoning every 2 minutes.

[ArtVandelay 24]

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 12:00 PM, Godeyes said:

@Oxygen

You are totally on point with this article.

I couldn't agree more - especially with points 2 and 3.
Lack of transparity + reconection issue are so disappointing in this game. Not to mention you are totally punished if you do not manage to reconnect in time - even if it isn't your fault.

I would add 1 other issue that somewhat corresponds to the first issue - current role system is BAD. We get chars like ETC and Zarya in 1 basket called "warriors" when they are so damn different. New players take those chars like Zarya/Sonya/Rexx and don't understand that they are NOT tanks...

This is a HUGE problem to me.  I can't tell you how many drafts I say "we need a tank" and someone says that we have one (when clearly we do not).  They don't understand the hero roles.  It shouldn't be forced (comps should be flexible and encourage bold strategies), heck I have won HL games with triple spec before.  However, a 'bad' comp (one with missing roles) pretty much always results in a toxic game.

Another issue is that several warriors have different builds (not just Varian), and simply picking a hero that CAN be a tank doesn't make him a tank.  I have countless games where we have solo warrior and they skip tanky talents.  Most of the time it is Muridan with all bolt talents, Haymaker, etc.  

On top of that, for some reason in Gold and below, everyone thinks a tank should just infinitely push and soak damage.  Meanwhile a dive assassin takes out your entire backline.  Perhaps if people understood Tank vs Bruiser, they would understand the difference in those mentalities/approaches.

 

[ArtVandelay 24]

On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 12:01 AM, VinsX said:

Great points! And I'm inspired by your discussion about ai picking random talents. I think they could add a feature which allows you to add preset talent plans in your loadouts. And an in-game hotkey would be asigned to activate your plan, say Ctrl+A for example. You can still pick talents with Ctrl+num, or you can use Ctrl+A to autopick. And there could be a golden boarder or something around your preset talents as a reminder. 

So ai will auto pick your preset plan so your game won't be ruined by mis-picked talents by ai if your're unintentionally DCed. Another benefit is that this may also help reduce the chance of mis-picking by players themselves and enables quick pick if you happen to lvl up in the middle of a fight. 

As for draft mode, just add the hero swap feature together with this. Players will be given some time after the draft to swap and select loadouts.

Now the problem will be that there're too few slots. I don't know why Blizzard won't give us more slots, not even an option for them, but if it's due to server capicity or something, at least give more slots to the heroes in your favourite list? I think that's only reasonable.

I would love to preset my talents.  Even when I am IN games I have misclicked at times, or delayed picking to avoid a misclick while in a big battle (where the talent could have helped a lot).  I look at it like a fantasy draft, where you can check your queue your favorite player in case you step away.  I would love to do that in HOTS.  You don't have to pick your entire build, but you could just queue up the next couple talents.  You might change your mind based on what the enemy picks, but then you either need to uncheck the queue or never queue in the first place.  Make it up to the user.

If you had something queued, the talent pick could still pop up, but maybe if you just hit enter or space bar or something, it accepts the pre-selected talent.  Alternatively you pick a different talent (no enter confirmation needed).  I wouldn't want to make the confirmation too lengthy as the point is to not interrupt play (beyond the DC issue).

 

It could also help avoid situations where you end up without a tank because the person builds 'wrong'.  I have been in tons of drafts where you ask for a tank, someone picks Varian, then surprise they are twin blades!  If they had it queued you could maybe head that off and correct it before the rest of the game becomes toxic.

 

Edited November 19, 2018 by ArtVandelay