Heroes of the Storm Deckard

[positiv2 950]

This thread is for comments about our Deckard build guide for Heroes of the Storm.

[Erathis 53]

Hmmm, so did a little testing of Deckard today and here are my thoughts on the talents as they stand:

Level 1: I don't really see the point in the Scroll talents.  Scroll itself seems difficult to hit without using it as a follow up from another CC/slow/displacement (it's easier now because people aren't used to playing against him) and even if you did that, if you're chaining CCs you don't need the Scroll talents at that point, your team is doing great.  They also just seem a bit pointless to me.  Why do I care to reveal an enemy if I chain rooted him?  Admittedly reducing armor is nice but I only get that after completing the quest...  And again, if I can do that I don't think I need the extra help.  Same with Spell Power.  Sapphire though does make the Cube slow much more noticeable and since I don't like the scroll talents I tend to default to that.  I'll be very interested to hear anyone's thoughts on why the two scroll talents are better here though.

Level 4: Honestly everything on this tier seems worthwhile to me.  Shield and Ruby are a bit more situational while Rejuv is just a solid easy buff to your potions.  Shield and Ruby have their place though and I'm glad they are there.  I think this is a good well balanced talent tier all around.

Level 7: Again, my lack of faith in the Scroll related talents makes Cube Mastery a bit less appealing to me.  Lowering cooldowns (potentially by quite a bit) isn't bad though so I don't hate it and with a comp based around chaining CC I would pick it highly.  Likewise Emerald certainly has a place and again, I'm glad it's an option.  That said, I find myself defaulting to Kanai's Cube most of the time.  It's simple and easy.

Level 10: Both of Deckard's Heroics are useful and both have shockingly low cooldowns.  He frankly can spam them at the drop of a hat and have them back up again for the next fight every time.  Stay a while and listen is my personal favorite both because it's a great piece of CC and because it's level 20 upgrade makes it crippling even after broken.  Either way, can't go wrong here.

Level 13: Much like level 4 all of these are great.  Both Super Potion and Revival are great, it just depends on if you need big burst heals or AoE healing.  Meanwhile, Ancients Blessing is nice in an AA focused comp but seems a touch too specialized?  Again, nice when the teams match up in such a way as to let it work though.

Level 17: I'm sure it comes as no surprise by now that I don't see the point to Stone Curse.  Never mind the difficulty in landing it, why would you really want to?  Seems like Safety letting you get more Scroll casts off would be more valuable and far more consistent.  Safety in numbers seems like a fine enough generic pick.  Stick near your back line friends and throw out those potions like a machine gun.  Honestly I've really been liking Horadric Staff at this level.  Not that Deckard really wants to be in melee (no escape and low health is a downer) but being able to deliver a stun on demand to backline divers or to chain CCs/abilities has been great for me.  I had a wonderful game with a Kel'Thuzad where we chained CCs like crazy and Staff (and to a lesser extent Scroll and Cube) was great for setting up chain/freeze combos and keeping them in decay.

Level 20:  If you pick Stay a While then Respect the Elderly is a no brainer here to me.  Morenadoes seems a bit like overkill as it has a super short cooldown to begin with.  If you really want to try to get two off in one fight then by all means try but that doesn't seem necessary.  Bottomless Flask is cool but at the same time on many maps I find myself moving around too much and resetting potions to think I'd get all that much use out of it.  You can cast the potions fast enough that it doesn't seem necessary as well.  Only on really small maps would I consider it.  Finally, if you're not getting Respect the Elderly then Perfect Gems seems like a fine generic pick.  If nothing else getting 5 seconds off the cube nice, getting to spam whatever gems you might have picked up is the cherry on top.

Anyhow, I look forward to hearing other ideas and to see the rational behind the guide's choices.  Obviously the writer has a very different view on the scroll talents than I do so I look forward to seeing that.  Maybe I'll hear something that makes me see them in a better light.  Till then.

Edited April 25, 2018 by KSDT

[Unpronounceable 4]

For Field Study at level 1, it boosts spell power, not spell damage, so it'll boost your healing.  I can't do more than play around in try mode, so I really can't tell how big a difference it'll make in practice, but I'd take more healing for a support.

[Morcalivan 86]

Scroll is quite easy to dodge unless both team are smashing into each other and you want the enemy to try and evade it. More useful as a distraction than a root so far. Just to slow to set off. Might need a Garrosh or Artanis to make use out of it.

Horadric Cube is quick but even its slow is not enough to really land a Scroll hit. The multiple effects that it can have make it pretty unpredictable to deal with though.

Potions are where I enjoy teaming with a Cain. Potion lines to retreat to as you use someone like Guld'dan on Q build is pretty nice. Leoric and Fenix can also fight and retreat into Potion patches. And as you get reuseable Potions at lvl 20 you can create a wide area of scattered Potions in a lane for team fights to 'push/retreat and repeat', or you can land a renewable Potion in multiple lanes to split push. Kinda reaches into Abathur's lvl 1+4 healing shields healing ppl in all lanes quickly. The giant sized potion works best with renewable potions that have distance between them to conveet travel time into health. The area heals obviously are better with team fights, turning everyone into a mini-support healer, similar to Stukov.

The stun staff lets Medivh play a bit like Uther. That said, while the staff uses no mana, it does not give a speed boost. So it's less of a dive stun than Uther's can be, limiting it's number of uses.

D.va = funnies

Kel'Thuzad and Jaina do pretty well with Cain.

Anyone with a timed heroic attack that is typically dodged, really.

Mages in general do well with a healer who can drop heals to retreat to. The difference is they aren't time sensitive like Alex's. Horadric Cube and Scroll are really best used to let teammates escape to Potions. Scroll doesn't need to land in this scenario to be of use.

Not sure why I added caps to Potions throughout this post. :p

On a side note. A bad Cain is way worse than another bad healer. Too reliant on planning things out.

[Erathis 53]

2 hours ago, Morcalivan said:

On a side note. A bad Cain is way worse than another bad healer. Too reliant on planning things out.

I agree with almost all of your post, the only thing I disagree on is this part.  I think Ana still holds this title.  At least Cain's potions can be thrown on the ground and his two abilities, while easy to dodge, are large AoEs with fairly generous hit boxes.  I've seen plenty of Ana's who can't hit the broad side of a barn with her heals or her dart.  I guess her auto attacks being ranged gives her something over Cain but overall I'd take a bad Cain over a bad Ana any day.

Edited April 25, 2018 by KSDT

[Morcalivan 86]

I would say even a good Ana can do poorly though based on the recipient. I've dodged plenty of heals as I'm sure we all have. They really should let allies see her line of sight.

Alex is in much the same boat as Cain though. At least she can deal ranged damage. And her heroic heal is pretty easy to use.

Has anyone gotten the lvl 1 quest to lower armour with lvl 13's fortitude's team lifeateal yet? Did it work well as a push tool? Combo with Ruby Gem and Armour Buff?

Edited April 25, 2018 by Morcalivan

[Valhalen 1,484]

From testing, I noticed that the radius of Potion of Revival is really low. You have to pratically hug the other team member to get the AoE healing. I hope they buff this talent, because even though you put as recommended, I feel it fails to deliver the AoE heal it's supposed to. A bonus is that the AoE healing from this talent also heals minions.

Also, I noticed you put the Sapphire talent as not recommended, but I think it's a really strong talent to shutdown the mobility of some Heroes that already lack it; it is also a great way to negate movement speed buffs such as Lucio's and Tyrael's.

[Oxygen 446]

38 minutes ago, Valhalen said:

From testing, I noticed that the radius of Potion of Revival is really low. You have to pratically hug the other team member to get the AoE healing. I hope they buff this talent, because even though you put as recommended, I feel it fails to deliver the AoE heal it's supposed to. A bonus is that the AoE healing from this talent also heals minions.

Also, I noticed you put the Sapphire talent as not recommended, but I think it's a really strong talent to shutdown the mobility of some Heroes that already lack it; it is also a great way to negate movement speed buffs such as Lucio's and Tyrael's.

Indeed, the radius certainly felt lower after a bit more testing. I'll probably look into recommending Blessing instead.

I still feel iffy about Sapphire; I don't know if a 25% added slow for 1.75s every 30s (at best) which overlaps with Ruby is worth it.

 

I'm going to wait for a bit more data to make more calls.

[Morcalivan 86]

Sapphire lands more than the Scrolls though. So while the seconds are low for the slow vs the root, they are more guaranteed. And you can still use Ruby when on offense. Can't really use Ruby on retreat though. And if you have two, you might as well pick up Emerald for further offense when your team is kiting. Can't use Ruby in that situation either unless your team is about to dive.

Edit: Is Lorenado used to guide targets into Scroll effectively? Haven't really used or seen that Heroic much.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Morcalivan

[Oxygen 446]

20 minutes ago, Morcalivan said:

Sapphire lands more than the Scrolls though. So while the seconds are low for the slow vs the root, they are more guaranteed. And you can still use Ruby when on offense. Can't really use Ruby on retreat though. And if you have two, you might as well pick up Emerald for further offense when your team is kiting. Can't use Ruby in that situation either unless your team is about to dive.

Edit: Is Lorenado used to guide targets into Scroll effectively? Haven't really used or seen that Heroic much.

Tier 1 is definitely weird as every talent does something pretty wildly different; hard to evaluate on math alone, and so definitely depends on comp/enemy comp.

Lorenado does that very well, yes. Its vector targeting lets it pull things to you(r team) as well; pretty versatile.

[Guest Biggles]

I'm about to get to level 10 with Decard and here's the build that offers me the most team benefits and fun. Possibly not maxing out healing, but with things like a .75 second stun every 5 seconds you can pull some wicked plays. Hope this helps someone. 

Bigglesworth#1648

 

https://www.icy-veins.com/heroes/talent-calculator/deckard-cain#32.0!1221333

[Morcalivan 86]

The Lorenado into Scroll is making me think of an Alarak teamup now. Pulling then rooting multiple players into a near complete Scroll to then get his quests done right off the start maybe? Or is that too ambitious? Sounds fun to try. Might need a wall to smack them up against or a narrow passage to push them into though. Otherwise the TK might push/pull them all the way to the other side of Scroll. Sounds a bit tricky. Maybe Stay a While could line up quest completes at lvl 10. Should be easy enough. Push a stray into their team just before Cain pops his Heroic and then set up your Discord/Lightning position.

[PrivateJoker 27]

Honestly, Scroll of Identify at level 1 is incredibly good, yall are trippin. I played a bunch of games yesterday, and I never had any trouble landing Scroll of Sealing. I think the absolute latest I completed the quest was by level 10. The reveal is not to be underestimated, it reveals for 16 seconds once it's completed. That's an insane amount of time. It might not seem like a big deal, since "they just got rooted so why would I need to see where they are", but keep in mind that if they just got rooted they are going to RUN AWAY when the root wears off. And you are going to know exactly where they ran, while they are likely at low health. Your Genji/Zeratul/Tracer/Samuro probably very much appreciates that information. It reduces armor by 15 for everyone inside, which is great, since a rooted target is likely to become a focused target. That armor debuff also works on minions and structures, by the way. That's a big deal, you can increase the value of practically every objective with that. Or just generally increase your team's damage output, since Cain's own damage is rather lacking.

Edited April 26, 2018 by PrivateJoker

[SleepySheepy 41]

Any reason why Bottomless Flasks talent is not recommended? It's perfect when you push enemy side and it makes it so much easier to heal of front if you took super healing potions at 13 and occasionally drop potion to backline.

[PrivateJoker 27]

2 hours ago, SleepySheepy said:

Any reason why Bottomless Flasks talent is not recommended? It's perfect when you push enemy side and it makes it so much easier to heal of front if you took super healing potions at 13 and occasionally drop potion to backline.

They have it as situational. They also recommend Ruby, so I can see how Perfect Gems could be extremely potent if your team has a lot of frontline.

Personally, I'm with you. Rejuvination Potion + Bottomless Flask nets a ton of healing, and it doesn't require your teammates to be diving on your Horadric Cube targets to get the benefit. It should probably be the other way around, with Ruby + Perfect Gems being situational, and Rejuvination Potion + Bottomless Flask being more universally good. Super Potion would also be really potent with that, but I still like Potion of Revival better. The splash is kinda small, but people are dumb, and they manage to not pick up the potions unless you throw them EXACTLY in their path. The splash effect lets you run up to them, Alt+Q, and they're guaranteed to at least get the splash, which is often enough to save them in a pinch, and has the nice side effect of making sure you're topped off as well.

Honestly, the gem talents are a really cool mechanic, but none of them universally outclass other talents in their tiers. Ruby is probably the best one, but unless you specifically draft Cain to heal a frontline heavy team, it's not the best. If Quick Match gives you even 2 other backline heroes like mages, you now have 3/5 of your team hanging out in the back where they'll never pick up those minor healing potions. Even if you save Ruby to hit a hero who is diving you, it would require you to run TOWARD the hero who is diving you, and you just slowed with Horadric Cube, to get the potions. Which is basically the worst thing you could do, you should be using that slow effect to self-peel.

[Erathis 53]

19 hours ago, PrivateJoker said:

Honestly, Scroll of Identify at level 1 is incredibly good, yall are trippin. I played a bunch of games yesterday, and I never had any trouble landing Scroll of Sealing. I think the absolute latest I completed the quest was by level 10. The reveal is not to be underestimated, it reveals for 16 seconds once it's completed. That's an insane amount of time. It might not seem like a big deal, since "they just got rooted so why would I need to see where they are", but keep in mind that if they just got rooted they are going to RUN AWAY when the root wears off. And you are going to know exactly where they ran, while they are likely at low health. Your Genji/Zeratul/Tracer/Samuro probably very much appreciates that information. It reduces armor by 15 for everyone inside, which is great, since a rooted target is likely to become a focused target. That armor debuff also works on minions and structures, by the way. That's a big deal, you can increase the value of practically every objective with that. Or just generally increase your team's damage output, since Cain's own damage is rather lacking.

Sure, they will appreciate the reveal (and reduced armor), then again they'll appreciate your Cube slowing the target more effectively with Sapphire so they can't run as easily quite a bit as well.  Are you sure it reduces armor on structures and minions/objectives?  That's not usually how this type of thing works (plus the tool tip specifies Heroes hit, not enemies/structures) and Grubby wasn't seeing this damage increase when he was trying it out on his stream.  I would test it in Try Mode myself but I'm at work atm.  If someone can confirm or deny that the armor debuff works on Structures/objectives, I'd appreciate it otherwise I'll test it when I get home.

Edit: I did the testing myself.  No, Scroll of Identify does not increase your damage vs anything but Heroes.  Buildings, Minions, Camps, Bosses, ect... are not affected.

14 hours ago, SleepySheepy said:

Any reason why Bottomless Flasks talent is not recommended? It's perfect when you push enemy side and it makes it so much easier to heal of front if you took super healing potions at 13 and occasionally drop potion to backline.

The general issue I had with Endless was simply not having the fight stay in the same location long enough to get value out of the refill, plus constantly spamming the potions into better/closer locations is both easy and quick.  Makes the refill less necessary and harder to get much value from.  Even if you have zero gems, Perfect Gems at least gives you a 5 second cooldown reduction on your Cube and if you do have any gem (Sapphire or Ruby especially) then being able to spam them is quite nice.

Edited April 26, 2018 by KSDT

[PrivateJoker 27]

6 hours ago, KSDT said:

Sure, they will appreciate the reveal (and reduced armor), then again they'll appreciate your Cube slowing the target more effectively with Sapphire so they can't run as easily quite a bit as well.  Are you sure it reduces armor on structures and minions/objectives?  That's not usually how this type of thing works (plus the tool tip specifies Heroes hit, not enemies/structures) and Grubby wasn't seeing this damage increase when he was trying it out on his stream.  I would test it in Try Mode myself but I'm at work atm.  If someone can confirm or deny that the armor debuff works on Structures/objectives, I'd appreciate it otherwise I'll test it when I get home.

Edit: I did the testing myself.  No, Scroll of Identify does not increase your damage vs anything but Heroes.  Buildings, Minions, Camps, Bosses, ect... are not affected.

The general issue I had with Endless was simply not having the fight stay in the same location long enough to get value out of the refill, plus constantly spamming the potions into better/closer locations is both easy and quick.  Makes the refill less necessary and harder to get much value from.  Even if you have zero gems, Perfect Gems at least gives you a 5 second cooldown reduction on your Cube and if you do have any gem (Sapphire or Ruby especially) then being able to spam them is quite nice.

The tooltip doesn't specify heroes though, it just says "After hitting 20 Heroes, Scroll of Sealing also reduces armor by 15 for 4 seconds, and the reveal duration is doubled". Things are usually written very specifically to mention if they only effect Heroes, or only Minions, Mercenaries, etc. It could be that the wording is bad because it's new, but as written it should work on everything.

[Erathis 53]

16 minutes ago, PrivateJoker said:

The tooltip doesn't specify heroes though, it just says "After hitting 20 Heroes, Scroll of Sealing also reduces armor by 15 for 4 seconds, and the reveal duration is doubled". Things are usually written very specifically to mention if they only effect Heroes, or only Minions, Mercenaries, etc. It could be that the wording is bad because it's new, but as written it should work on everything.

In the reward section when it says "also" I believe it means "in addition to revealing" which is only done on Heroes, not on everything.

That said, I did test it and can confirm it's Heroes only.

[PrivateJoker 27]

25 minutes ago, PrivateJoker said:

The tooltip doesn't specify heroes though, it just says "After hitting 20 Heroes, Scroll of Sealing also reduces armor by 15 for 4 seconds, and the reveal duration is doubled". Things are usually written very specifically to mention if they only effect Heroes, or only Minions, Mercenaries, etc. It could be that the wording is bad because it's new, but as written it should work on everything.

 

6 minutes ago, KSDT said:

In the reward section when it says "also" I believe it means "in addition to revealing" which is only done on Heroes, not on everything.

That said, I did test it and can confirm it's Heroes only.

Yea I just tested that too, the tooltip should be more specific. I still think the reveal is really valuable for chasing targets. Sapphire is useful for ganking, but it won't help your diving heroes chase down weak targets in a teamfight, because Cain shouldn't be anywhere near the enemy backline. I specifically said heroes like Genji, Tracer, Zeratul and Samuro, because they're really quick heroes who can safely dive way past the enemies frontline, and pick off a retreating weak hero. Cain is not someone who can, or should, follow them back there. Even still, the bonus damage is really useful, even if it only works on heroes.

Edited April 26, 2018 by PrivateJoker

[Erathis 53]

38 minutes ago, PrivateJoker said:

Yea I just tested that too, the tooltip should be more specific. I still think the reveal is really valuable for chasing targets. Sapphire is useful for ganking, but it won't help your diving heroes chase down weak targets in a teamfight, because Cain shouldn't be anywhere near the enemy backline. I specifically said heroes like Genji, Tracer, Zeratul and Samuro, because they're really quick heroes who can safely dive way past the enemies frontline, and pick off a retreating weak hero. Cain is not someone who can, or should, follow them back there. Even still, the bonus damage is really useful, even if it only works on heroes.

If Cain isn't close enough to get his Cube on the back line, how is he going to have hit their back line with his scroll?  Even if you cast it at max range and manage to get them inside the area, they barely have to take a step back to dodge it (not that it's hard to dodge in any case which is still my biggest problem with any Scroll talent).  If it's a retreating front liner you're talking about then the Cube is easily close enough to hit them and stop them from retreating in the first place.

As for Cain's positioning, I tend to advance with my front line (though I make sure to stay behind at least one tank/melee) so that I'm close enough to keep my trait up and land my cubes in a chase or get my potions on/in front of my chasing allies.  If they try and turn on me then I have my ally right there to help and can drop my cube right on top of them (maybe getting my scroll to land if the melee I'm following has CC as well) while I step away.  Post 16 I can also stun them on hit which hopefully buys time for my allies to turn back.  Obviously I'm not following a full diver but then again I don't see how scroll helps a diver anyway.

[PrivateJoker 27]

12 hours ago, KSDT said:

If Cain isn't close enough to get his Cube on the back line, how is he going to have hit their back line with his scroll?  Even if you cast it at max range and manage to get them inside the area, they barely have to take a step back to dodge it (not that it's hard to dodge in any case which is still my biggest problem with any Scroll talent).  If it's a retreating front liner you're talking about then the Cube is easily close enough to hit them and stop them from retreating in the first place.

As for Cain's positioning, I tend to advance with my front line (though I make sure to stay behind at least one tank/melee) so that I'm close enough to keep my trait up and land my cubes in a chase or get my potions on/in front of my chasing allies.  If they try and turn on me then I have my ally right there to help and can drop my cube right on top of them (maybe getting my scroll to land if the melee I'm following has CC as well) while I step away.  Post 16 I can also stun them on hit which hopefully buys time for my allies to turn back.  Obviously I'm not following a full diver but then again I don't see how scroll helps a diver anyway.

If someone is retreating from a fight entirely, they aren't exactly "in the back line". They're trying to leave the fight, hiding in a bush to hearth, or retreating to one of their forts to tap the healing fountain. That's why the reveal is useful, they're someplace where you can't normally see them. Also, if you're implying that just because you rooted someone, and then slowed them, that means they're definitely not going to get away, you're kind of living in a dream world. They'll get healed, or have some kind of movement ability, or maybe even just a ton of health or armor, that allows them to get away with a few hit points. That's the guy who isn't gonna stand around waiting for the healer to get their health back up. That guy is going to leave the fight, and that's why it can be useful to have them revealed.

[Orshova 31]

We need the talent choice discussions added to the guide. The selections mean little without explanations backing them up.

[positiv2 950]

4 hours ago, Orshova said:

We need the talent choice discussions added to the guide. The selections mean little without explanations backing them up.

They are coming soon, together with Ability usage info. 

[Oxygen 446]

On 28/04/2018 at 11:13 AM, Orshova said:

We need the talent choice discussions added to the guide. The selections mean little without explanations backing them up.

Aye, I'm working on it as I type this. Well, not quite, because I had to stop to type this, but you get my meaning.

Will be published tomorrow.

Talent choices will also be updated now that we have a bit of data.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Oxygen

[Guest Is everything OK?]

On 4/29/2018 at 5:58 PM, Oxygen said:

Aye, I'm working on it as I type this. Well, not quite, because I had to stop to type this, but you get my meaning.

Will be published tomorrow.

Talent choices will also be updated now that we have a bit of data.