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Starym

Christie Golden Didn't Write Warbringers

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So, while the previous Warbringers cinematic, focusing on Jaina, went over pretty smooth and didn't really have any new events to present, today's ash-flavored Sylvanas one was... controversial to say the least. A lot of people are not happy with the way the Horde's Warchief is portrayed in the video, not to mention her motivations for the burning of Teldrassil, and as you'd expect with a vocal fanbase, things got a little out of hand.

A group of people on twitter started, let's say aggressively voicing their displeasure, over the way the story is going at the moment to Christie Golden, who started working at Blizzard as a senior writer late last year. While she's not really in charge of the full story itself, a lot of people expected her to improve the overall writing and guide the story in WoW, and some were actually pleased with the Sylvanas short, which lead to this twitter exchange:


So, regardless of whether you liked the recent cinematic or not, what it presented may not really be the direction the writing (or at least Golden's influence on it) will be taking. Whether she can (or wants to) change the direction we seem to be heading in remains to be seen, but at least there's some hope for those of us who really, REALLY did not enjoy what was shown today.

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I wasn't sure whether to add this to the article, so here it is, she went off twitter for today, presumably due to the negative comments/harrassment:

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sooo, since i don't play WoW (just WC3 back in the day), what was her motivation again?

She hates life now because... life is pain or what?

please enlighten me 😄

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Well, if she's a good writer hopefully she can figure out a way to redeem Sylvanas.. if she's terrible at it they'll just kill/write off another Horde Warchief.

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I think Blizzard's long term plan with lore at this point is to make the Horde look so painfully evil and incompentent no one wants to play them in order to get better faction balance. No really, that is the generous way of seeing it.

We already had one "dethrone your Warchief expansion", why should we have to play that again?

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Sylvanas has always, and will always, be a villain. It was well done and portrays her fairly well. The issue I have with it is that she's the Warchief and now muh faction are the complete bad guys for BFA despite the fact we were promised that the Alliance would be shown to be just as "morally grey" as us.

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14 minutes ago, Breadd said:

sooo, since i don't play WoW (just WC3 back in the day), what was her motivation again?

She hates life now because... life is pain or what?

please enlighten me 😄

thats the thing, in WC3 she was a good guy. she was ranger general and defender of elves (they were allies of humans and enemies of hordes ESPECIALLY trolls), then arthas killed her and raised her from death to serve him. she got free from arthas and started a new faction of free willed undead. that was untill wow came she became darker each expansion with death gas, worgens and now this.

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1 minute ago, Starym said:

Um, no.

Sorry but her burning the tree as a strategic move etc I could live with, but the cinematic presents it as an act of spite because of a comment from a random sentinel. It makes her look like an emo child, not a villain that knows what she's doing. Also, unless she's completely stupid she HAS to know that killing all those women and children will not go over well with the rest of the Horde, so at the very least this undermines her authority and intelligence. It's presented as if the burning was not planned AT ALL and was a moment of passion action, which is just tragically terrible writing for someone who's supposed to be a cold, calculating and manipulative villain.

 

She's always been depicted as highly emotional. So when the random sentinel makes her take a trip down memory lane she flips her lid which is entirely within her character to do - it just so happens that she commands a huge army so her violent outbursts are much more violent.

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3 minutes ago, Starym said:

Um, no.

Sorry but her burning the tree as a strategic move etc I could live with, but the cinematic presents it as an act of spite because of a comment from a random sentinel. It makes her look like an emo child, not a villain that knows what she's doing. Also, unless she's completely stupid she HAS to know that killing all those women and children will not go over well with the rest of the Horde, so at the very least this undermines her authority and intelligence. It's presented as if the burning was not planned AT ALL and was a moment of passion action, which is just tragically terrible writing for someone who's supposed to be a cold, calculating and manipulative villain.

On the horde side after she burns the tree, she comments to the player about how this wasn't the original plan and she knows instead of demoralizing the alliance  that burning the tree will unite them to come after her and the horde so they must prepare for the next battle (lordaeron)

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34 minutes ago, Starym said:

I wasn't sure whether to add this to the article, so here it is, she went off twitter for today, presumably due to the negative comments/harrassment:

Love Twitter or hate it, this is one of the big reasons why I despise it. Hopefully she takes it in stride and continues the good work.

18 minutes ago, Keioshin said:

Well, if she's a good writer hopefully she can figure out a way to redeem Sylvanas.. if she's terrible at it they'll just kill/write off another Horde Warchief.

Agreed. I like Sylvanas as a character and I truly hope that she isn't headed down that road that has become all too commonplace with Blizzard.

3 minutes ago, Drachar said:

I think Blizzard's long term plan with lore at this point is to make the Horde look so painfully evil and incompentent no one wants to play them in order to get better faction balance. No really, that is the generous way of seeing it.

We already had one "dethrone your Warchief expansion", why should we have to play that again?

I would hope not. Admittedly, I do not PvP all that much but that seems to be a rather careless approach. A good way to alienate a large player base. Not to mention, there are far better ways to achieve balance in the game rather than write full games, with complete lore, to try and force people into a specific aesthetic/belief system.

2 minutes ago, Brutalis said:

Sylvanas has always, and will always, be a villain. It was well done and portrays her fairly well. The issue I have with it is that she's the Warchief and now muh faction are the complete bad guys for BFA despite the fact we were promised that the Alliance would be shown to be just as "morally grey" as us.

This mirrors my concerns as well. On the surface, the Horde is not looking so hot right now.

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20 minutes ago, Dravixus said:

I think Blizzard's long term plan with lore at this point is to make the Horde look so painfully evil and incompentent no one wants to play them in order to get better faction balance. No really, that is the generous way of seeing it.

If so, that would be awefully stupid of them. People still want to play on the Empire's side in a Star Wars game. If anything, being able to play the bad guy is an incentive for many. Hell, who wants to be a whiney alliance dog following that boy-king anyway?

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1 hour ago, Keioshin said:

Well, if she's a good writer hopefully she can figure out a way to redeem Sylvanas.. if she's terrible at it they'll just kill/write off another Horde Warchief.

Sylvanas is beyond redemption.

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50 minutes ago, Brutalis said:

 

She's always been depicted as highly emotional. So when the random sentinel makes her take a trip down memory lane she flips her lid which is entirely within her character to do - it just so happens that she commands a huge army so her violent outbursts are much more violent.

Ah, so she's not JUST utterly evil and a murderer of children, she's an IRRATIONAL emo evil murderer of children who also screwed her own war effort (from the comments of the next poster after you) due to a single comment from an enemy solider. Ok, then she's totally fine as a character, a fine leader for the Horde who won't be Garrosh-ed and the writers aren't horrible.

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7 hours ago, Starym said:

Ah, so she's not JUST utterly evil and a murderer of children, she's an IRRATIONAL emo evil murderer of children who also screwed her own war effort (from the comments of the next poster after you) due to a single comment from an enemy solider. Ok, then she's totally fine as a character, a fine leader for the Horde who won't be Garrosh-ed and the writers aren't horrible.

1. I'm tired of this kind of feedback so I feel obliged to speak up about what you guys are missing when reacting like this. Especially Horde players who are revolted with this should take a look at themselves. Aren't they sounding pretty emotional right now? Sounds like if each of them were put in Sylvanas' shoes, that's how or why THEY would react when someone told them "you're sorry for me, nah I'm sorry for you, take that"... If they weren't this emotional, they would otherwise be able to think differently about the subject. They'd have a more "nuanced" perspective, which, they say, is what's missing from Sylvanas' and the Horde's personality... So this is just to establish that Horde players reactions themselves are full of irony, quick to judge at best, and probably imature.

2. The actual point, which should be plain to see once you all calm down: in cinematics, the plot is driven by key moments that mean more than what they show. They are just devices to show who the character is. That night elf simply represents an opportunity to show who Sylvanas is, has been, and will be. The most amazing line here, and one that nobody is talking about, is that Sylvanas has "made life her enemy". That is the key.

We are also literally taken to the past to show how bitter tears of despair were burned into her being. When she felt she had the upperhand, telling someone not to grieve, she was reminded of the wounds at her core; she's not a true comforter, she has "made life her enemy", and as she's reminded of this, and even when someone assumes what she can or can't do, and what they can always cling onto for hope in life, she decides to take it from them. Sylvanas expects no mercy, and she gives none. She can do all of this authentically since she has lost everything; so much so that she views the past as foolish, forever afirming her present disgrace as her reality. She reacts according to her "worst self" which is her true self. She can be diplomatic but when pushed, this is what comes up. Expect this from Sylvanas. She is not Garrosh, but she's not unpredictable. She is also very far from a child. She's an aged bitter soul with no hope for the living. Her lament is known to players, even enshrined in song, but it seems they need to be reminded of her core identity, so there you go. Hoping this helps...

3. Also, yes Sylvanas doesn't represent the Horde and you need to remind yourselves of that to be comfortable with her storyline. But the Horde is also NOT the Alliance. We don't have 2 Alliances. The Alliance is "together as one", and there was always more harmony in it. The Horde is full of unrest since it's an uneasy coallition of races who banded together out of necessity and convenience. Sylvanas represents this to an extreme since she more than any uses the Horde for her own ends. But you could argue that the Goblins or Blood Elves do so all the time too. The Tauren and Trolls are more amenable to Orcish ideals of honor, but the Orcs themselves are a brutal, fierce race that has always had WAR, not peace, as a way of life, and celebrate it. Remember all this before you try too hard to reject the idea that the Horde is more of the "evil" faction than the Alliance. It allows for that and that's great. It's why people choose the Horde, because it's "good to be bad".

Edited by Nunc
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1 hour ago, Nunc said:

I'm tired of this kind of feedback

The thing is, that almost nobody reads the quests. When Sylvanas takes valkyries from Northrend, she immediately starts the massacre of Gilneas when she sees an opportunity. Entire Gilneas population would be wiped out to boost forsaken ranks if not for worgen curse. She even portrays new forsaken as servants, not free willed. In the midst of this questline one of valkyries mentions a crucial thing: "New master. Same hunger for power", comparing Sylvanas to the Lich King himself. Point is she was going down this path since WotLK, but everyone somehow expects her to play out of her character and be "a true leader of the horde". 

My vote for Saurfang. And your comment is better than initial post.

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As I have stated in a previous post I feel that Sylvanas is a perfect leader for the Forsaken. Her story in Legion is less about fighting the Legion and more about saving the Forsaken. We see her fighting Genn and he is just as self serving as her, but depicted as more altruistic as his goals aling better with what is "good"

 

Christi Goldens book "Before the Storm" is a typical book by her as I understand it. She does not like the Horde, and describe them as self serving and egoistic in the face of trouble. While the Alliance is self sacrificing and good, putting the need of Azeroth before their own people. Its utter tripe, flat and boring. I am 3hrs into "Before the Storm" on audiobook (6ish hrs left) and I have little desire to finish it as its rather boring. I will not delve into the details beause of spoilers, but ALL the Alliance characters are "good", and Sylvanas and Gallywix are "bad" Bain and Saurfang are "tricked" Its predictable, boring and a litte simple.

Jaina and Genn has more than enough reason to want to fight the Horde. Jaina could have manipulated Kul Tiras and Genn could have used Anduins greef over the loss of his father (that easily can be placed at the feet of Sylvanas). these things could have led to a siege of Underciy/Lordaron, where the Horde is burning Teldrasil as a respons. The morally bad move by the Horde then would have been using the Azerithe for their own end, ignoring the pain Azeroth is in. Then we would have had two grey factions.
 

If it turns out that the Old Ones are manipulating Sylvanas I would say its bad writing as she hardly needs manipulating. WHY THE F.. dont they manipulate Jaina? She was on her way to the same end as Sylvanas and more than ripe for picking.

Alliance is a god damn posterboy for Blizzard like Ultramarines are for GamesWorkshop so god forbid they can do anything bad or interesting. No lets stick to "herpaderp" greedy goblins and scheeming undead.

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2 hours ago, Xlodvig said:

When Sylvanas takes valkyries from Northrend, she immediately starts the massacre of Gilneas when she sees an opportunity. Entire Gilneas population would be wiped out to boost forsaken ranks if not for worgen curse.

you know that's cause the Valkyries gave her a vision when she tried to kill herself that without her garrosh was gonna still gonna attack gilneas and that the majority of the forsaken would have died in that fight, her going there was to save her people.

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11 hours ago, Starym said:

Ah, so she's not JUST utterly evil and a murderer of children, she's an IRRATIONAL emo evil murderer of children who also screwed her own war effort (from the comments of the next poster after you) due to a single comment from an enemy solider. Ok, then she's totally fine as a character, a fine leader for the Horde who won't be Garrosh-ed and the writers aren't horrible.

She's ALWAYS been an utterly evil child murderer. Look at what she did to Gilneas. I mean, I don't like the fact she's Warchief at all and the Horde rebelled against Garrosh for far less but that doesn't change the fact that, as I originally said, her burning down Teldrassil is completely in character.

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14 minutes ago, Brutalis said:

She's ALWAYS been an utterly evil child murderer. Look at what she did to Gilneas. I mean, I don't like the fact she's Warchief at all and the Horde rebelled against Garrosh for far less but that doesn't change the fact that, as I originally said, her burning down Teldrassil is completely in character.

I agree. Its totally in character for her. She uses the horde as a means to an end, cares only for her self and the Forsaken. Trade Prince Gallywix is greedy and selfish. Its just that it is sooo boring as a story line. Its minimum effort, a participation badge. Horde is evil, Alliance is good.  Why should any horde druid, priest or shaman participate in this nonesens of a motivation? The earth is bleeding, lets burn down Teldrassil to deny the enemey a staging ground. "Sorry Warchief, are we mixing up YOUR motivation with what is best for the Horde again?" 

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13 hours ago, Keioshin said:

On the horde side after she burns the tree, she comments to the player about how this wasn't the original plan and she knows instead of demoralizing the alliance  that burning the tree will unite them to come after her and the horde so they must prepare for the next battle (lordaeron)

If this wasn't planned from the beginning why the horde war caravan carried catapults and flammable projectiles all the way from Orgrimmar to Teldrassil? This is getting more and more confusing - I'm not sure the cinematic team and the game quest designers have the common Sylvanas character personalities in their mind.

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16 hours ago, Keioshin said:

she comments to the player about how this wasn't the original plan and she knows instead of demoralizing the alliance  that burning the tree will unite them to come after her and the horde

...exactly.

She wanted to 'end the war before it began.'  The war they really began in the first place for all intents and purposes.  Then has the presidential level hissy fit and burns a bunch of kids and anyone not fighting alive in their homes.  

All to 'save the horde'.  Start a war where your people will surely die, kill more of your own people in the process of a peaceful meeting, make command decisions that could do nothing less than galvanize support against you...  

To save your people.

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Lord people would complain about anything they would have released for entertainment purposes. The fans are the problem, every bit of detail ripped apart and analyzed, spoiled people for not having their outrageous demands met, relax lol.

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