wow Top Guilds Frustrated with Split Raid System

[Plergoth 277]

Just now, Calysia said:

In a perfect world it should have. Unfortunately people abused it...that's why we can't have nice things

Indeed. It's not fun watching smaller or less established guilds splinter and collapse due to arguments amongst raiders and officers over who needs what and who deserves something over another, but there's a lot of guilds out there (including my own) who used a DKP system or something similar with Master Loot over the years and was favourable for progression as well as maintaining a certain level of consistency and organisation that made the raids smoother and ultimately more fun. I was under the impression that bonus rolls per week were meant to improvise for the lack of personal loot in those kind of guild or master loot runs, but I suppose the decision made reflected the difference in opinion. 

[Shardi 11]

they put them selves in that position no one else but each individual  on  those raid teams made them do it im sure their sponsors have expectations and things they require to remain getting sponsored  but they chose to accept the deal no one made them  

Edited January 27, 2019 by Shardi
firs time using this system and qouted improperly

[Badadada 184]

1 hour ago, Plergoth said:

Everybody slating these top guilds and players needs to take a step back and realise the bigger picture here; without top end players there is no structure to the end game raiding circuit or hierarchy and less incentive to be a raider for the fun, challenge and the competition. 

We also have the direct impact on the rest of the playerbase, as these top guilds have pushed the limits and needs for things such as DBM (which help the rest of us, the DBM coder is a cutting edge raider himself), WeakAuras and so on so that the encounters that Blizzard create become more fun, more of an accomplishment and indeed, memorable moments in gaming for any raider regardless of their prestige, rather than simple tank and spank (or spend weeks crafting resist gear...) fights that offer nothing long term for the game. 

It also demonstrates the point further that gaming companies *must* listen to their best and most experienced players when they say something is wrong or not working as well as it could do; they are often rationalised, well articulated points that they raise, often with possible solutions. 

1. I somewhat agree, altough being top level is relative. There must always be a roster of elite guilds compared to the average. Objectively the current scene is doing at an all time high level. These people are really committed and without them WoW would be a casuals theme park MMO. For this matter I sympathize with them.
2. However. While their commitment is welcome, I think everyone knows the Titan Residuum isn't supposed to work that way. The system is flawed and they are currently exploiting it for marginal gains (even if it's just a mild exploitation). It's Blizzards fault and I doubt they gonna fix it before 8.1.5, but this scheme is part of the dirty-side of the world first race where it's hard to feel sorry for the raiders, becuase the rules are still the same for everyone - nobody is gaining any advantage over the others as long as they all do their split runs.
(3. I'm also a bit hyped to see who can put in the most work to farming Residuum and whether it will negatively affect their actual Mythic progress. I mean it might be an unintentional bug, but hey - we are getting to see a world first race without any itemization soft cap. This hasn't happened in a long time (never?), this race is exciting!)

Edited January 27, 2019 by Badadada

[Shardi 11]

Just now, Shardi said:

they put them selves in that position no one else but each individual  on  those raid teams made them do it 

 

39 minutes ago, Plergoth said:

I keep seeing this pop up repeatedly. Quite a few of these raiders have jobs, family commitments, are popular streamers etc etc. During races such as this though, they want to be able to play the cutting edge content at the highest possible level they can. To try and say that they don't have to do any of this underestimates the level of dedication these players commit via 

- sponsorship deals
- maintaining an active subscriber and viewer count on their respective channels
- the friendships and loyalty they've established within their guilds 
- the desire to maintain the competition at top level play that encourages and entertains 
- beating the game at a level very few others aim for or achieve

You might as well ask them to uninstall the game. 

 

[Shardi 11]

5 minutes ago, Shardi said:

w

 

Edited January 27, 2019 by Shardi

[Plergoth 277]

It's interesting to note that the line between exploitation and clever use of game mechanics when it comes to something such as world first races has always been a point of contention, going as far back and before Lich King and the infamous Saronite Bombs (regularly used at the time in Rogue's dps rotations), which got people suspended back then but is now an in game rare and somewhat of a joke in BfA. 

Depending on how far this latest development goes in regards to residium, we could see further upsets and hopefully clarification from Blizzard, which is ultimately probably what a lot of these raiders seek; that frustration is rooted in doubts and questions over the ramifications of the EULA and TOS over what they are doing but also within the knowledge that a lot of other guilds are doing the same thing. 

[Rambunxious 1]

BOOHOO top guilds...this game isnt supposed to be designed for the top 1%...if it was  Blizzard would see a drop of 90% of subscriptions...so Top Guilds   get over yourselves

 

[Starym 3,779]

I don't understand. Did you guys not read the final paragraph of the article? This isn't about Blizzard changing the residuum system, or the fact that the game should be designed for the top end raiders, it's about Blizzard paying attention to the race. I mean can you imagine if in the world finals of the Arena championship at BlizzCon players had gear they had to farm for 18 hours weeks before the event and maybe not getting it? Or one of the Arena teams getting higher item level items due to faction switching etc etc etc.?

[Medzilos 0]

ooh olympic athletes had train hard before competing? =D =D 

[Rooach 34]

Blizzard should fix that. Top guilds are the only reason the game is still alive and gets some attention atm

Edit: Some weird typos

Edited January 27, 2019 by Rooach

[GorditoLOL 6]

5 hours ago, Calysia said:

I prefer personal loot over wasting a half hour every raid passing loot out. It hasn't set us back any in progression either.

i'm not saying removal of personal loot all together, you've had the option for years now. my raid also doesn't take half an hour every raid to pass out loot, but different strokes right?

It's not a choice of one or the other, it's a matter of blizzard forcing one system in order to curtail split raids, and pretty much no other reason than that.

 

5 hours ago, Calysia said:

In a perfect world it should have. Unfortunately people abused it...that's why we can't have nice things. ? 

How is people abusing the personal loot prison system different from "abusing" the master loot system? 

How is it a bad thing if my guild likes master loot and yours likes personal loot?

(my guild raids two nights a week, with no attendance policy and is mostly just heroic btw, with small forays into mythic raiding after heroic is on farm)

 

5 hours ago, Plergoth said:

That's fine, but the option for Master Loot should have stayed. Personal loot helps a lot of players and guilds feel like they're getting something out of the game without having to raid for weeks before finally getting a chance to bid on something with DKP for example, and I understand that, but consistent and planned loot distribution has perks as well.  

Exactly my point.  This decision, and many others of this expac have led me to actually give a little thought to the idea that certain streamers talk about skinner box enabling decisions, conspiracy theories about blizzard just playing mind games and making design decisions based on keeping people mindlessly playing the RNG game instead of actually enjoying the game.

 

 

[Resnar 37]

1 hour ago, Medzilos said:

ooh olympic athletes had train hard before competing? =D =D 

Unpaid athletes who use third party program to get money from it (twitch)*

[GorditoLOL 6]

and just to reiterate, blizzard says they don't make design decisions based on the 1% that is the mythic raid guild community, yet justified the personal loot changes by citing the split raiding that is almost exclusive to the 1% mythic raid guild community. 

[Prophet001 543]

4 hours ago, Starym said:

I don't understand. Did you guys not read the final paragraph of the article? This isn't about Blizzard changing the residuum system, or the fact that the game should be designed for the top end raiders, it's about Blizzard paying attention to the race. I mean can you imagine if in the world finals of the Arena championship at BlizzCon players had gear they had to farm for 18 hours weeks before the event and maybe not getting it? Or one of the Arena teams getting higher item level items due to faction switching etc etc etc.?

The game isn't designed to cater to them nor should it be.

It's designed to have repeatable game play that offers minimal gains past a certain point. Things like artifact power aren't really setup to have you grind your face into it for 4 weeks to gain .01% of your DPS.

These people take these systems out of context and blizz lets them because to fix it is to marginalize the other 99% of the players that don't do this.

You want to know how to fix the problem the world first raiders are having? Don't allow gear trading.

 

Done.

Now you have 500 people who don't have to do split runs and 2+ million that get slighted.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Prophet001

[SIlverfall 1]

simple solution.  Open with Mythic difficulty first.  You will have a choice then, you can split push heroics and not participate in mythic or forego heroic for mythic.  

 

Either way, it was the highend players that designed the split system, they can choose to not use it.

[tkioz 229]

8 hours ago, Plergoth said:

I keep seeing this pop up repeatedly. Quite a few of these raiders have jobs, family commitments, are popular streamers etc etc. During races such as this though, they want to be able to play the cutting edge content at the highest possible level they can. To try and say that they don't have to do any of this underestimates the level of dedication these players commit via 

- sponsorship deals
- maintaining an active subscriber and viewer count on their respective channels
- the friendships and loyalty they've established within their guilds 
- the desire to maintain the competition at top level play that encourages and entertains 
- beating the game at a level very few others aim for or achieve

You might as well ask them to uninstall the game. 

It's still a choice. This isn't real life where you need to eat to live and need to work to be able to afford to eat. This is a video game. If you aren't having fun, stop bloody playing. If you think something is too extreme, don't do it. The game should not be designed around the extreme behaviour of people. It should be designed around the average player who doesn't consume content at a break neck pace.

[lIllIl 0]

9 hours ago, Calysia said:

In a perfect world it should have. Unfortunately people abused it...that's why we can't have nice things. ? 

How was master loot exploited? They didn't remove it because of gear funneling they removed it because apparently guilds were not giving trial members gear and if a trial really wants to join a guild won't care about getting loot. This new system is just the same as master looting you just have to get a full group of each armor type which most top guilds have no problem doing. 

[Oxygen 446]

I haven't kept up with how loot works nowadays, but back in my days, you'd do your one weekly raid, gear dropped, and you spent your good boy points to get that piece if it was your turn. If you were in a pub, you'd simply roll. I'm not usually a traditionalist, but that seemed to work just fine.

[Brutalis 165]

The World First race is a fan thing and not something Blizzard endorse or aim content towards. They made this very clear when talking about Seige of Zulduzar when it was announced there would be different experiences depending on your faction. If people want to take part in this race then they should be free to do so, but it’s evidently not how Blizz intend WoW to be played and isn’t a function of the game itself. Being a world first raider takes serious dedication, and time, and effort, but Blizz genuinely don’t care about it and it’s not something they design for. The fact that in order to min-max this expansion you have to grind even harder isn’t something these people should be crying about because what they’re doing is so niche and irrelevant.

Essentially, these people are trying to catch seagulls with fishing rods and complain to the manufacturers that their product isn’t optimized to catch seagulls. Sure, you CAN catch a seagull with a fishing rod but it’s damned hard and the thing isn’t designed to do it.

[cemo 0]

14 hours ago, Calysia said:

In a perfect world it should have. Unfortunately people abused it...that's why we can't have nice things. ? 

Nobody wanted to do it, but it was the most optimal way of gearing towards the first week of a raid, I don't count that as abuse.

I don't see how forced personal loot is something positive? As someone who raids at a fairly "high" level, all this does is reward players who do not put effort in, and punish those who do, and even then. Lack of choice is negative, it does nothing but contribute to frustration and a feeling of lack of control, especially with the imbalance of certain types of items such as azerite and trinkets where some items reward a substantial increase to output, whereas some do not. 

To me it seems like they've gone the wrong way about stopping split raiding.

[KOL2024 1]

7 hours ago, lIllIl said:

How was master loot exploited? They didn't remove it because of gear funneling they removed it because apparently guilds were not giving trial members gear and if a trial really wants to join a guild won't care about getting loot. This new system is just the same as master looting you just have to get a full group of each armor type which most top guilds have no problem doing. 

No they outright stated they removed it because of funneling.

[PatrickHenry 293]

Make residuum a once a week and done thing.  Give it a weekly reset cooldown like mythic lockouts.  One big lump so everyone tries to do it that week, then youre free to do whatever else.

[DaltonIsPanda 18]

Video games aren't supposed to fun you guys. It's serious business.

[Plergoth 277]

20 hours ago, tkioz said:

It's still a choice. This isn't real life where you need to eat to live and need to work to be able to afford to eat. This is a video game. If you aren't having fun, stop bloody playing. If you think something is too extreme, don't do it. The game should not be designed around the extreme behaviour of people. It should be designed around the average player who doesn't consume content at a break neck pace.

The game is designed to at least a certain extent of that "extreme behaviour", otherwise we wouldn't have M+ dungeons or rated and timed challenges such as Artifact ones and achievements in raids. It's not even solely about this latest trend they've adopted, it's that these players get bashed simply for playing at a high level, as soon as they voice criticism or concerns weeks if not months ahead of the rest of the playerbase they're normally dismissed out of hand, even when they normally discuss things that would be beneficial for everyone that plays. 

[lIllIl 0]

15 hours ago, KOL2024 said:

No they outright stated they removed it because of funneling.

No they straight up said it's because guilds were not giving loot out to trials which made killing a boss not as rewarding. It's in one of the Q&A's before BfA. I will try find it for you! Funneling was only part of it.

Here you go