Starym

Top Guilds Frustrated with Split Raid System

Sign in to follow this  

52 posts in this topic

ijl8W1P.jpg
 

Heroic split runs have been a thing ever since Mythic was introduced back in Warlords of Draenor (or, if you want to get technical about it, in Siege of Orgrimmar, but that was after the race was already over). Top guilds form many, many groups throughout which they distribute all of their characters, alts and any additional players willing to help so they can funnel the gear from the raids to their main raiding characters, focusing on the specific classes and specs that they expect will perform the best.

Usually this takes the form of 5-6 groups, huge spreadsheets detailing who goes where so that each type of drop has an already well-geared character there to pick it up. This time around the Titan Residuum disenchant mechanic seems to be making things a lot more complicated and forcing a whole lot more runs and calculations as to where to place whom and what to funnel. Most guilds are even asking fans to come help them fill out as many raids as possible so they can get the most benefit out of it, and even Normal raids are back on the table in a big way.

The residuum system has already caused headaches for the guilds during Uldir farm, and it's obvious this is one of the more irritating aspects of the race for them.

And, as we've already seen what lengths some guilds have already gone to when it comes to gear advantage, there's simply no way they'd ever pass up the amount of advantage gained with the method and no top guilds can afford not to do it, as it would basically mean them giving up any top placement, or at the very least a shot at a World First. The results of the splits are pretty insane as well, in terms of gear, as Method Priest Josh pointed out:

World First raiding already requires an extreme amount of dedication, predominantly in the weeks of the actual race (with guilds raiding up to 16+ hours a day), while the preparation stages weren't exactly a picnic before either (with each player needing to have at least 3 well geared alts), and they are now getting pretty extreme as well. And, as you'd expect, the guilds aren't too happy about it:

Method raider Cayna spoke to us about the issue in a bit more detail:

Quote

This expansion was supposed to be the expansion without split raiding. But residuum managed to screw that one up and made it worse then ever before. Feeding people was extremely powerful because they can make multiple 415 items in Mythic week. The fact the more people you could feed the better made it so splits become endless. Last week we did 9 Mythic Uldir splits, every group had 7-8 pugs in it because we lacked the characters to fill it ourselves.


Now, obviously Blizzard can't really tune the entire system with just the top guilds in mind, as they're a very small percentage of the player base, but this just further emphasizes the need for special tournament-type servers or something similar for the race, or in fact any type of involvement in the race on Blizzard's side. With Battle of Dazar'alor getting streamed by at least two of the top three guilds and Uldir having had over 200,000 viewers on Method's endboss kill alone, the race is getting a lot of attention and traction in the esports scene, so perhaps we could see some potential solutions to the many problems progress raiders face in the near future.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean if thats what they wanna do then its their problem. Blizz shouldnt be trying to fix this, if they want to press every system to lits limit to get an edge in the race then thats just what they want to do. They could just as easily just not do it and not put it on blizz to fix the system theyre asking for. Like its basically saying "hey blizz we want a way to target our gear, but dont let us be able to abuse it or let any other systems be more useful"

 

I get the frustration, but honestly I dont sympathize with forcing yourself to do something you dont have to do to abuse a system in place. and after next week it wont matter anymore because everyone will have a whole season to horde the TR so when the next set of gear comes out they wont need a huge influx of gear to funnel so the problem is only a 1 time occurrence.

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Whisla said:

I mean if thats what they wanna do then its their problem. Blizz shouldnt be trying to fix this, if they want to press every system to lits limit to get an edge in the race then thats just what they want to do. They could just as easily just not do it and not put it on blizz to fix the system theyre asking for. Like its basically saying "hey blizz we want a way to target our gear, but dont let us be able to abuse it or let any other systems be more useful"

 

I get the frustration, but honestly I dont sympathize with forcing yourself to do something you dont have to do to abuse a system in place. and after next week it wont matter anymore because everyone will have a whole season to horde the TR so when the next set of gear comes out they wont need a huge influx of gear to funnel so the problem is only a 1 time occurrence.

Like I mentioned in the article, I don't think it's an issue with the system itself, it's more of an issue of Blizz ignoring the race. The last raid clearly showed a LOT of people are interested in the race so it seems strange there hasn't been any word of changes. I mean a tournament realm is an INSTANT fix for so many of the issues the race has (grinding items, time zone advantages etc etc).

To your point, however, yes they do choose to do these things, but it's because they have to. It's the price to have even a chance at World First, and they're World First raiders. The effort they put in both during farm and the race itself was already just insane, so of course they'll complain when Blizzard add systems to make it even harder on them. I dont think you said anything particularly bad or wrong yourself, but so many people respond to stuff like this with "no one cares, it's their choice, their problem", which is just so shitty it bothers me quite a bit.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Demonpuke said:

IMO this type of behavior shouldn't be tolerated by Blizzard in any way as it sets a bad precedent for the rest of the community.

 

13 minutes ago, Demonpuke said:

Same thing with the group finder tool that, again, a very small amount of people exploited in Legion to farm mats via realm jumping, and now look at the neutered group finder system that we are left with today.

So you're saying they should do something about it and then you complain that they did.

If WF raiders follow the rules and everything works as intented (no bug exploitation etc.) then there is nothing Blizz can do about it other than changing the systems. They can't ban people for simply playing their game, even if it is not the way they intended.

Also, the reason the group finder is neutered is because people have been abusing it not just for server hopping but to finish WQs in mere seconds. It became borderline automation. 

21 minutes ago, Demonpuke said:

No, they don't HAVE to do this.

Yes, they have to. Because if they don't, the others will gain an advantage. That's how mafia competition works. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crying for this lol.. they are not forced to play like this. It's maximum 500 players.. who cares. 

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TLDR: "Waaaaah Waaaah Waaah"?

I mean seriously they do this to themselves, no-one is holding a gun to their head.

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, jinsu2301 said:

So you're saying they should do something about it and then you complain that they did.

No, I'm saying they shouldn't tolerate it and allow it to happen at all in the first place, therefore there would be no reason to nerf a system based on the actions of a couple of hundred people. The first time Blizzard hands out two week bans for exploiting what is CLEARLY not meant to be (trading non-usable azerite to different armor classes) to Method, Limit, etc. and I guarantee that *filtered* will never happen again. 

 

51 minutes ago, jinsu2301 said:

Also, the reason the group finder is neutered is because people have been abusing it not just for server hopping but to finish WQs in mere seconds. It became borderline automation. 

No, you are wrong again. Why do you speak when you are so ridiculously ignorant? Blizzard very CLEARLY stated the reason for the changes to the group finder was cross-realm abuse, which in turn caused major server instability for the entire game, not because people were using it to complete world quests "too quickly." They made that statement several times many, many months ago when people first started seeing those changes, and Blizzard was fast to clarify the actual reasons behind it. 

 

51 minutes ago, jinsu2301 said:

They can't ban people for simply playing their game, even if it is not the way they intended.

Umm, yes they can, and they should. ANY BEHAVIOR that is not INTENDED BEHAVIOR in the game is a ban-worthy offense, again very CLEARLY outlined in the terms of service that every one of us agreed to.

Edited by Demonpuke
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Top guilds will always find ways to prepare for the World First Race ahead of time. First, we had split raiding, now this, but the problem wasn't fixed and it's still a thing. Ideally, there would be a Tournament realm (MDI/Arena Championship all have one) where you copy over your char and everyone starts at the same ilvl, but then again, anyone would be able to compete, which isn't too bad frankly. The race has been in favor of Method for a long time and this would shake things up a bit.

Top guilds wouldn't have to go through the annoying mindless farming before Mythic and skill would matter a lot more. A win-win in both scenarios?

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Hypersonic said:

Crying for this lol.. they are not forced to play like this. It's maximum 500 players.. who cares. 

But But But some stupid stream people watch... /s

Seriously I couldn't give less of a *filtered* about these people if I tried. This is a video game I play for fun, I'm sick to death of these people ruining that game by getting things nerfed by being extremists and pulling stupid *filtered* like the Azerite farming. Oh I can't give my guild mate that needs 5 TR to buy a new piece my useless chest from M0 because he's cloth and I'm leather. Whelp. Thanks Method.

It's always *filtered* like this, the ultra hardcore do something stupid and extreme and everyone else suffers because of their behaviour. Just bloody control yourselves and don't force a company trying to make games for a large audience to play Nanny.

Edited by tkioz
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Starym said:

Like I mentioned in the article, I don't think it's an issue with the system itself, it's more of an issue of Blizz ignoring the race.

Wow, Blizzard is ignoring something the game community actually cares about, how effin unexpected of them lul.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you mean the number of raid runs sky-rocketed, people are playing the game all-day and more and more of them get to experience end-game bosses? What a terrible time to be a subscriber indeed - WoW is clearly dying (lol no, it isn't)! 😂😀
Thank for the guy who brought this up in a developer Q&A by the way - Titan Residuum wasn't meant to be part of this expansion, it was added on player request for those who missed Azerite gear from M+ runs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are they really crying about having to put in effort to be Cutting Edge? LOL What did they think they would have to do for it? Boo hoo you have to actually try to be cutting edge... phhht cry me a river.

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No sympathy whatsoever. Every guild faces the same obstacles so quit your whining just because you all have to work harder.

The game doesn't revolver around a handful of guilds nor should it.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like most of the people posting in this thread saying “*filtered* those guys I couldn’t care less about them” are missing what should be the point. 

 

Everyone keeps making arguments as if personal loot was this perfect unchangavle system, but I feel like the downfalls of personal loot affect normal guilds more than anyone. The top guilds are just a cartoonishly extreme example of issues with loot I’ve had in my own raids. (ie: 5 of the same cloak/ring dropping, not being able to trade an item with bad stats but higher ilvl, general confusion “can I trade this”) 

 

I argue that personal loot is an even more frustrating system (at least for those that raid with a guild), than the entire azerite system. The residuum system is also rng based garbage that was installed as a “bandaid fix” but using the same shady methods of randomization and limitation to force another lottery based reward. Why not just make bosses drop currency instead of cases where people want to keep non upgrades so that they can scrap for a tiny bit of currency 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Demonpuke said:

Frankly I don't give a damn about the frustrations that this very tiny minority of players experience because of "cheesing" the systems. IMO this type of behavior shouldn't be tolerated by Blizzard in any way as it sets a bad precedent for the rest of the community.

No, they don't HAVE to do this. They could choose to play the game the way it is meant to be played, instead of trying to find new ways to exploit the game in hopes of getting a leg up on others EVERY SINGLE RAID TIER!!! Who remembers when these assholes exploited name plates on Star Augur? Because of 500 players, the entire player base has been screwed over indefinitely for nameplates. Same thing with the group finder tool that, again, a very small amount of people exploited in Legion to farm mats via realm jumping, and now look at the neutered group finder system that we are left with today.

Personally, *filtered* every one of you people who screw over the rest of the players by exploiting the systems. It's unbelievably pathetic. 

To use your argument.  The stripped down group finder system is just the way the game is meant to played so play it that way.  Do what Blizz says is fun, not what you think is fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everybody slating these top guilds and players needs to take a step back and realise the bigger picture here; without top end players there is no structure to the end game raiding circuit or hierarchy and less incentive to be a raider for the fun, challenge and the competition. 

We also have the direct impact on the rest of the playerbase, as these top guilds have pushed the limits and needs for things such as DBM (which help the rest of us, the DBM coder is a cutting edge raider himself), WeakAuras and so on so that the encounters that Blizzard create become more fun, more of an accomplishment and indeed, memorable moments in gaming for any raider regardless of their prestige, rather than simple tank and spank (or spend weeks crafting resist gear...) fights that offer nothing long term for the game. 

It also demonstrates the point further that gaming companies *must* listen to their best and most experienced players when they say something is wrong or not working as well as it could do; they are often rationalised, well articulated points that they raise, often with possible solutions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

first world problems.. nobody forces them to do this, so get over it. look back to classic where bosses took months to kill. if they cant do it with their current gear well, than they should farm more 😄 no sympathy from me whatsoever for their whining

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

World First (not even Hall of Fame or Cutting Edge) raiding has always been extreme and should not be considered in any discussion of normal gameplay behaviors or what's good for the health of the game overall. Any system Blizzard designs will be pushed to absurdity by specifically World First raiders, because they need every tiny advantage they can get. This is how they choose to play the game and is how it's worked since 2004. Adding a Tournament Realm removes part of the spirit of the World First race, which is not just clearing the raid but the dedication and preparation that goes into it beforehand. In other words, leave PvEsports to Mythic+ dungeons, where it works a lot better. World First raiders can stream progression if they wish, but Blizzard should make no effort to turn it into an esport. 

Blizzard will never have a solution for split raiding that does not also disproportionately impact the rest of the playerbase negatively. All they can do is disincentivize it as much as possible, but as we all know, World First raiders would rather do something they're disincentivized to do and complain about it than not do it at all. 

Edited by dembro
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GorditoLOL said:

I feel like most of the people posting in this thread saying “*filtered* those guys I couldn’t care less about them” are missing what should be the point. 

 

Everyone keeps making arguments as if personal loot was this perfect unchangavle system, but I feel like the downfalls of personal loot affect normal guilds more than anyone. The top guilds are just a cartoonishly extreme example of issues with loot I’ve had in my own raids. (ie: 5 of the same cloak/ring dropping, not being able to trade an item with bad stats but higher ilvl, general confusion “can I trade this”) 

 

I argue that personal loot is an even more frustrating system (at least for those that raid with a guild), than the entire azerite system. The residuum system is also rng based garbage that was installed as a “bandaid fix” but using the same shady methods of randomization and limitation to force another lottery based reward. Why not just make bosses drop currency instead of cases where people want to keep non upgrades so that they can scrap for a tiny bit of currency 

I prefer personal loot over wasting a half hour every raid passing loot out. It hasn't set us back any in progression either.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, t3ramos said:

nobody forces them to do this

I keep seeing this pop up repeatedly. Quite a few of these raiders have jobs, family commitments, are popular streamers etc etc. During races such as this though, they want to be able to play the cutting edge content at the highest possible level they can. To try and say that they don't have to do any of this underestimates the level of dedication these players commit via 

- sponsorship deals
- maintaining an active subscriber and viewer count on their respective channels
- the friendships and loyalty they've established within their guilds 
- the desire to maintain the competition at top level play that encourages and entertains 
- beating the game at a level very few others aim for or achieve

You might as well ask them to uninstall the game. 

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Plergoth said:

I keep seeing this pop up repeatedly. Quite a few of these raiders have jobs, family commitments, are popular streamers etc etc. During races such as this though, they want to be able to play the cutting edge content at the highest possible level they can. To try and say that they don't have to do any of this underestimates the level of dedication these players commit via 

- sponsorship deals
- maintaining an active subscriber and viewer count on their respective channels
- the friendships and loyalty they've established within their guilds 
- the desire to maintain the competition at top level play that encourages and entertains 
- beating the game at a level very few others aim for or achieve

You might as well ask them to uninstall the game. 

Nothing is stopping them from doing this...it's just likely to take them longer. I see nothing wrong with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Calysia said:

I prefer personal loot over wasting a half hour every raid passing loot out. It hasn't set us back any in progression either.

That's fine, but the option for Master Loot should have stayed. Personal loot helps a lot of players and guilds feel like they're getting something out of the game without having to raid for weeks before finally getting a chance to bid on something with DKP for example, and I understand that, but consistent and planned loot distribution has perks as well.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Plergoth said:

That's fine, but the option for Master Loot should have stayed. Personal loot helps a lot of players and guilds feel like they're getting something out of the game without having to raid for weeks before finally getting a chance to bid on something with DKP for example, and I understand that, but consistent and planned loot distribution has perks as well.  

In a perfect world it should have. Unfortunately people abused it...that's why we can't have nice things. 😞 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Starym
      Limit's Guild Master @maximumwow talked about the guild's potential streaming of the race in the future and went into a pretty in-depth explanation of the potential consequences for the race and how it could impact them specifically, bringing it all back to the Method/Serenity split. It's a very interesting and honest clip that brings into question whether the guild will actually stream (as it was previously generally stated that they would) and absolutely worth a watch.

      He also went on to clarify a tricky/easily misunderstood thing he said in the above clip:
      While we now have a lot of the top guilds streaming their progress, Limit's inclusion would be a big one as they're fairly certain to remain on the top of the US/OC part of the race, and since there's a whole day/16 hours in which no one else has access to the raid it's definitely be a popular addition, but as mentioned above could impact the race.
    • By Stan
      Feathers is a new battle pet that you can get by completing a short questline in Patch 8.1.5 that takes place in Tanaris.
      Mechanical Feather was added in Patch 8.1 and we also datamined a matching Mechanical Parrot mount in Patch 8.1 Build 28294 that's still not available to this day, maybe it's being saved for Mechagon and Patch 8.2?

      Animations

      Feathers Questline
      A new questline was added in Patch 8.1.5 that rewards a battle pet called Feathers. Both factions will be able to get the pet. We completed the questline on the Horde side, where Jastor Gallywix sends you to kill a Goblin located in Tanaris.
      Whatever Happened to Grizzek Fizzwrench?
      Gallywix wants you to locate and kill Grizzek Fizzwrench in Tanaris.
      Gazlowe appears right after you leave the ship and tries to strike another deal with you.
      After investigating Waterspring Field in Tanaris, you come across a Mechanical Parrot that's broken.
      Some Reassembly Required
      Collect 100 Mechanical Parts from Venture Co. scavengers to fix Feathers.
      Re-Parrot
      Now that Feathers is fixed, it's time to debug his recall program to trace Grizzek Fizzwrench.
      When you begin debugging, Feathers will go haywire. You'll gain access to three abilities that need to be pressed in exact order, based on the text that appears on screen.
      The debugging process should finish.
      Return to the Nest
      Activate the recall subroutine to find Fizzwrench.
      He's Dead, Jastor
      Feathers will lead yu to Grizzek Fizzwrench and Saffy. Now, you're asked to tell Jastor Gallywix that he's long dead and you can keep the bird.
      Return to Zandalar Harbor and speak to Gallywix.
      Now talk to Gazlowe to claim your pet!
      Mechanical Feather
      “Thought to be lost in a massive explosion, the smartest of engineers were able to rebuild Feathers into a magnificent mechanical creation.”

      Gameplay Video
    • By Stan
      Wintergrasp is returning as an epic battleground in Patch 8.1.5 and initial testing with the WoW development team is scheduled for February 19.
      If you want to participate in the testing, copy your character over to Broxigar and queue up for Wintergrasp at 2:00 p.m Pacific time on Tuesday.
      Blizzard (Source)
      We’re coming together to test the new Wintergrasp epic battleground experience in the 8.1.5 PTR, and would love for you to join us!
      On Tuesday, February 19, beginning at 2:00 p.m. Pacific time (5:00 p.m. Eastern), we’ll be queueing up for Wintergrasp. Get your PTR character(s) ready at level 120 on the Broxigar server, and then at 2:00 p.m.:
      Open Group Finder (default hotkey: i) Select the Player vs. Player tab Select Quick Match In the dropdown, choose “Specific Battlegrounds” Select “Wintergrasp” and then hit the Join Battle button Thank you very much, and we look forward to bombarding some frozen walls with you!
    • By Starym
      Rextroy is back with some more interesting videos and it seems he's starting a new series where he pits 40 of one class against 40 of another, presumably to go with BfA's conflict theme. Apparently both fights had a third, unforeseen adversary in the form of lag, but they ended up being a lot of fun nonetheless, with the lag actually adding a bit of tension to the proceedings, as abilities just erupt in waves.
      First off we have a Hero class face-off to mirror Arthas and Illidan's fight from Frozen Throne:
       
      And then it's on to Light vs. Death as Paladins take on the Lich King's elite:
       
      There's also an added bonus, as Rextroy also put together a weird expedition to Northrend, composed entirely of low level recruits to see if they could make it through the ghoul and undead infested Bombardment area in Icecrown. Why? Why not!
       
      It's always great to see these kinds of events, reminding us that there's always something to do in Azeroth, even if you're not too fond of the current content. MMOs are usually at their best when players take the reins and find their own fun, so thanks go out to Rextroy for these types of events and we hope to see more like it soon.
      If you know any interesting events like this, post your favorites below!
    • By Starym
      Today's hotfixes are mostly just the PvP mana regen tuning from yesterday, but we also have some more Battle of Dazar'alor changes, this time for Heroic difficulty High Tinker and Rastakhan.
      February 14 (source)
      Dungeons and Raids
      Battle of Dazar’alor High Tinker Mekkatorque Wind Up now grants 10% Haste and Movement Speed in Heroic difficulty (was 20%). Boss health lowered by 5% in Heroic difficulty. King Rastakhan Seal of Purification, Scorching Detonation, and Withering Burst should no longer hit pets. Uldir Taloc Orbs of Harmony will now respawn when the Taloc encounter resets. Player versus Player
      Restoration Druid mana regeneration is now reduced by 55% in PvP. Holy Priest, Holy Paladin, Restoration Shaman, and Mistweaver Monk mana regeneration is now reduced by 50% in PvP. Discipline Priest mana regeneration is now reduced by 45% in PvP. Balance Druid, Feral Druid, and Elemental Shaman mana regeneration is reduced by 35% in PvP. Developers’ notes: We’ve taken a careful look at healer mana during longer PvP engagements in both Arenas and battlegrounds, and the changes above are intended to address several concerns. In PvP, we want mana to feel like a more critical resource, and we want mana efficiency to be an important part of PvP healing. At the beginning of Battle for Azeroth, mana regeneration from all healer specs was reduced by 15-30% (depending on the class), and after reviewing the current state of the game, we feel like further reductions are necessary to both healer specs and a few hybrid specs. Druid
      Restoration Nourish (PvP Talent) mana cost increased by 30% Rogue
      Assassination Neurotoxin now increases the cooldown of affected spells by 1 sec, down from 3 sec. Neurotoxin now has a 45 second cooldown, up from 25 sec. Neurotoxin now has a 3 sec duration, down from 10 sec. Developers note: Unfortunately, we are unable to fix a number of technical issues with this spell at this time. We’re working on a fix for it that we hope to include in 8.1.5. Previous hotfixes.