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Starym

Top Guilds Frustrated with Split Raid System

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Heroic split runs have been a thing ever since Mythic was introduced back in Warlords of Draenor (or, if you want to get technical about it, in Siege of Orgrimmar, but that was after the race was already over). Top guilds form many, many groups throughout which they distribute all of their characters, alts and any additional players willing to help so they can funnel the gear from the raids to their main raiding characters, focusing on the specific classes and specs that they expect will perform the best.

Usually this takes the form of 5-6 groups, huge spreadsheets detailing who goes where so that each type of drop has an already well-geared character there to pick it up. This time around the Titan Residuum disenchant mechanic seems to be making things a lot more complicated and forcing a whole lot more runs and calculations as to where to place whom and what to funnel. Most guilds are even asking fans to come help them fill out as many raids as possible so they can get the most benefit out of it, and even Normal raids are back on the table in a big way.

The residuum system has already caused headaches for the guilds during Uldir farm, and it's obvious this is one of the more irritating aspects of the race for them.

And, as we've already seen what lengths some guilds have already gone to when it comes to gear advantage, there's simply no way they'd ever pass up the amount of advantage gained with the method and no top guilds can afford not to do it, as it would basically mean them giving up any top placement, or at the very least a shot at a World First. The results of the splits are pretty insane as well, in terms of gear, as Method Priest Josh pointed out:

World First raiding already requires an extreme amount of dedication, predominantly in the weeks of the actual race (with guilds raiding up to 16+ hours a day), while the preparation stages weren't exactly a picnic before either (with each player needing to have at least 3 well geared alts), and they are now getting pretty extreme as well. And, as you'd expect, the guilds aren't too happy about it:

Method raider Cayna spoke to us about the issue in a bit more detail:

Quote

This expansion was supposed to be the expansion without split raiding. But residuum managed to screw that one up and made it worse then ever before. Feeding people was extremely powerful because they can make multiple 415 items in Mythic week. The fact the more people you could feed the better made it so splits become endless. Last week we did 9 Mythic Uldir splits, every group had 7-8 pugs in it because we lacked the characters to fill it ourselves.


Now, obviously Blizzard can't really tune the entire system with just the top guilds in mind, as they're a very small percentage of the player base, but this just further emphasizes the need for special tournament-type servers or something similar for the race, or in fact any type of involvement in the race on Blizzard's side. With Battle of Dazar'alor getting streamed by at least two of the top three guilds and Uldir having had over 200,000 viewers on Method's endboss kill alone, the race is getting a lot of attention and traction in the esports scene, so perhaps we could see some potential solutions to the many problems progress raiders face in the near future.

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I mean if thats what they wanna do then its their problem. Blizz shouldnt be trying to fix this, if they want to press every system to lits limit to get an edge in the race then thats just what they want to do. They could just as easily just not do it and not put it on blizz to fix the system theyre asking for. Like its basically saying "hey blizz we want a way to target our gear, but dont let us be able to abuse it or let any other systems be more useful"

 

I get the frustration, but honestly I dont sympathize with forcing yourself to do something you dont have to do to abuse a system in place. and after next week it wont matter anymore because everyone will have a whole season to horde the TR so when the next set of gear comes out they wont need a huge influx of gear to funnel so the problem is only a 1 time occurrence.

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4 minutes ago, Whisla said:

I mean if thats what they wanna do then its their problem. Blizz shouldnt be trying to fix this, if they want to press every system to lits limit to get an edge in the race then thats just what they want to do. They could just as easily just not do it and not put it on blizz to fix the system theyre asking for. Like its basically saying "hey blizz we want a way to target our gear, but dont let us be able to abuse it or let any other systems be more useful"

 

I get the frustration, but honestly I dont sympathize with forcing yourself to do something you dont have to do to abuse a system in place. and after next week it wont matter anymore because everyone will have a whole season to horde the TR so when the next set of gear comes out they wont need a huge influx of gear to funnel so the problem is only a 1 time occurrence.

Like I mentioned in the article, I don't think it's an issue with the system itself, it's more of an issue of Blizz ignoring the race. The last raid clearly showed a LOT of people are interested in the race so it seems strange there hasn't been any word of changes. I mean a tournament realm is an INSTANT fix for so many of the issues the race has (grinding items, time zone advantages etc etc).

To your point, however, yes they do choose to do these things, but it's because they have to. It's the price to have even a chance at World First, and they're World First raiders. The effort they put in both during farm and the race itself was already just insane, so of course they'll complain when Blizzard add systems to make it even harder on them. I dont think you said anything particularly bad or wrong yourself, but so many people respond to stuff like this with "no one cares, it's their choice, their problem", which is just so shitty it bothers me quite a bit.

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13 minutes ago, Demonpuke said:

IMO this type of behavior shouldn't be tolerated by Blizzard in any way as it sets a bad precedent for the rest of the community.

 

13 minutes ago, Demonpuke said:

Same thing with the group finder tool that, again, a very small amount of people exploited in Legion to farm mats via realm jumping, and now look at the neutered group finder system that we are left with today.

So you're saying they should do something about it and then you complain that they did.

If WF raiders follow the rules and everything works as intented (no bug exploitation etc.) then there is nothing Blizz can do about it other than changing the systems. They can't ban people for simply playing their game, even if it is not the way they intended.

Also, the reason the group finder is neutered is because people have been abusing it not just for server hopping but to finish WQs in mere seconds. It became borderline automation. 

21 minutes ago, Demonpuke said:

No, they don't HAVE to do this.

Yes, they have to. Because if they don't, the others will gain an advantage. That's how mafia competition works. 

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51 minutes ago, jinsu2301 said:

So you're saying they should do something about it and then you complain that they did.

No, I'm saying they shouldn't tolerate it and allow it to happen at all in the first place, therefore there would be no reason to nerf a system based on the actions of a couple of hundred people. The first time Blizzard hands out two week bans for exploiting what is CLEARLY not meant to be (trading non-usable azerite to different armor classes) to Method, Limit, etc. and I guarantee that *filtered* will never happen again. 

 

51 minutes ago, jinsu2301 said:

Also, the reason the group finder is neutered is because people have been abusing it not just for server hopping but to finish WQs in mere seconds. It became borderline automation. 

No, you are wrong again. Why do you speak when you are so ridiculously ignorant? Blizzard very CLEARLY stated the reason for the changes to the group finder was cross-realm abuse, which in turn caused major server instability for the entire game, not because people were using it to complete world quests "too quickly." They made that statement several times many, many months ago when people first started seeing those changes, and Blizzard was fast to clarify the actual reasons behind it. 

 

51 minutes ago, jinsu2301 said:

They can't ban people for simply playing their game, even if it is not the way they intended.

Umm, yes they can, and they should. ANY BEHAVIOR that is not INTENDED BEHAVIOR in the game is a ban-worthy offense, again very CLEARLY outlined in the terms of service that every one of us agreed to.

Edited by Demonpuke
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Top guilds will always find ways to prepare for the World First Race ahead of time. First, we had split raiding, now this, but the problem wasn't fixed and it's still a thing. Ideally, there would be a Tournament realm (MDI/Arena Championship all have one) where you copy over your char and everyone starts at the same ilvl, but then again, anyone would be able to compete, which isn't too bad frankly. The race has been in favor of Method for a long time and this would shake things up a bit.

Top guilds wouldn't have to go through the annoying mindless farming before Mythic and skill would matter a lot more. A win-win in both scenarios?

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58 minutes ago, Hypersonic said:

Crying for this lol.. they are not forced to play like this. It's maximum 500 players.. who cares. 

But But But some stupid stream people watch... /s

Seriously I couldn't give less of a *filtered* about these people if I tried. This is a video game I play for fun, I'm sick to death of these people ruining that game by getting things nerfed by being extremists and pulling stupid *filtered* like the Azerite farming. Oh I can't give my guild mate that needs 5 TR to buy a new piece my useless chest from M0 because he's cloth and I'm leather. Whelp. Thanks Method.

It's always *filtered* like this, the ultra hardcore do something stupid and extreme and everyone else suffers because of their behaviour. Just bloody control yourselves and don't force a company trying to make games for a large audience to play Nanny.

Edited by tkioz
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4 hours ago, Starym said:

Like I mentioned in the article, I don't think it's an issue with the system itself, it's more of an issue of Blizz ignoring the race.

Wow, Blizzard is ignoring something the game community actually cares about, how effin unexpected of them lul.

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So you mean the number of raid runs sky-rocketed, people are playing the game all-day and more and more of them get to experience end-game bosses? What a terrible time to be a subscriber indeed - WoW is clearly dying (lol no, it isn't)! ??
Thank for the guy who brought this up in a developer Q&A by the way - Titan Residuum wasn't meant to be part of this expansion, it was added on player request for those who missed Azerite gear from M+ runs.

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Are they really crying about having to put in effort to be Cutting Edge? LOL What did they think they would have to do for it? Boo hoo you have to actually try to be cutting edge... phhht cry me a river.

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No sympathy whatsoever. Every guild faces the same obstacles so quit your whining just because you all have to work harder.

The game doesn't revolver around a handful of guilds nor should it.

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I feel like most of the people posting in this thread saying “*filtered* those guys I couldn’t care less about them” are missing what should be the point. 

 

Everyone keeps making arguments as if personal loot was this perfect unchangavle system, but I feel like the downfalls of personal loot affect normal guilds more than anyone. The top guilds are just a cartoonishly extreme example of issues with loot I’ve had in my own raids. (ie: 5 of the same cloak/ring dropping, not being able to trade an item with bad stats but higher ilvl, general confusion “can I trade this”) 

 

I argue that personal loot is an even more frustrating system (at least for those that raid with a guild), than the entire azerite system. The residuum system is also rng based garbage that was installed as a “bandaid fix” but using the same shady methods of randomization and limitation to force another lottery based reward. Why not just make bosses drop currency instead of cases where people want to keep non upgrades so that they can scrap for a tiny bit of currency 

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5 hours ago, Demonpuke said:

Frankly I don't give a damn about the frustrations that this very tiny minority of players experience because of "cheesing" the systems. IMO this type of behavior shouldn't be tolerated by Blizzard in any way as it sets a bad precedent for the rest of the community.

No, they don't HAVE to do this. They could choose to play the game the way it is meant to be played, instead of trying to find new ways to exploit the game in hopes of getting a leg up on others EVERY SINGLE RAID TIER!!! Who remembers when these assholes exploited name plates on Star Augur? Because of 500 players, the entire player base has been screwed over indefinitely for nameplates. Same thing with the group finder tool that, again, a very small amount of people exploited in Legion to farm mats via realm jumping, and now look at the neutered group finder system that we are left with today.

Personally, *filtered* every one of you people who screw over the rest of the players by exploiting the systems. It's unbelievably pathetic. 

To use your argument.  The stripped down group finder system is just the way the game is meant to played so play it that way.  Do what Blizz says is fun, not what you think is fun.

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Everybody slating these top guilds and players needs to take a step back and realise the bigger picture here; without top end players there is no structure to the end game raiding circuit or hierarchy and less incentive to be a raider for the fun, challenge and the competition. 

We also have the direct impact on the rest of the playerbase, as these top guilds have pushed the limits and needs for things such as DBM (which help the rest of us, the DBM coder is a cutting edge raider himself), WeakAuras and so on so that the encounters that Blizzard create become more fun, more of an accomplishment and indeed, memorable moments in gaming for any raider regardless of their prestige, rather than simple tank and spank (or spend weeks crafting resist gear...) fights that offer nothing long term for the game. 

It also demonstrates the point further that gaming companies *must* listen to their best and most experienced players when they say something is wrong or not working as well as it could do; they are often rationalised, well articulated points that they raise, often with possible solutions. 

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first world problems.. nobody forces them to do this, so get over it. look back to classic where bosses took months to kill. if they cant do it with their current gear well, than they should farm more ? no sympathy from me whatsoever for their whining

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World First (not even Hall of Fame or Cutting Edge) raiding has always been extreme and should not be considered in any discussion of normal gameplay behaviors or what's good for the health of the game overall. Any system Blizzard designs will be pushed to absurdity by specifically World First raiders, because they need every tiny advantage they can get. This is how they choose to play the game and is how it's worked since 2004. Adding a Tournament Realm removes part of the spirit of the World First race, which is not just clearing the raid but the dedication and preparation that goes into it beforehand. In other words, leave PvEsports to Mythic+ dungeons, where it works a lot better. World First raiders can stream progression if they wish, but Blizzard should make no effort to turn it into an esport. 

Blizzard will never have a solution for split raiding that does not also disproportionately impact the rest of the playerbase negatively. All they can do is disincentivize it as much as possible, but as we all know, World First raiders would rather do something they're disincentivized to do and complain about it than not do it at all. 

Edited by dembro
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1 hour ago, GorditoLOL said:

I feel like most of the people posting in this thread saying “*filtered* those guys I couldn’t care less about them” are missing what should be the point. 

 

Everyone keeps making arguments as if personal loot was this perfect unchangavle system, but I feel like the downfalls of personal loot affect normal guilds more than anyone. The top guilds are just a cartoonishly extreme example of issues with loot I’ve had in my own raids. (ie: 5 of the same cloak/ring dropping, not being able to trade an item with bad stats but higher ilvl, general confusion “can I trade this”) 

 

I argue that personal loot is an even more frustrating system (at least for those that raid with a guild), than the entire azerite system. The residuum system is also rng based garbage that was installed as a “bandaid fix” but using the same shady methods of randomization and limitation to force another lottery based reward. Why not just make bosses drop currency instead of cases where people want to keep non upgrades so that they can scrap for a tiny bit of currency 

I prefer personal loot over wasting a half hour every raid passing loot out. It hasn't set us back any in progression either.

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9 minutes ago, t3ramos said:

nobody forces them to do this

I keep seeing this pop up repeatedly. Quite a few of these raiders have jobs, family commitments, are popular streamers etc etc. During races such as this though, they want to be able to play the cutting edge content at the highest possible level they can. To try and say that they don't have to do any of this underestimates the level of dedication these players commit via 

- sponsorship deals
- maintaining an active subscriber and viewer count on their respective channels
- the friendships and loyalty they've established within their guilds 
- the desire to maintain the competition at top level play that encourages and entertains 
- beating the game at a level very few others aim for or achieve

You might as well ask them to uninstall the game. 

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4 minutes ago, Plergoth said:

I keep seeing this pop up repeatedly. Quite a few of these raiders have jobs, family commitments, are popular streamers etc etc. During races such as this though, they want to be able to play the cutting edge content at the highest possible level they can. To try and say that they don't have to do any of this underestimates the level of dedication these players commit via 

- sponsorship deals
- maintaining an active subscriber and viewer count on their respective channels
- the friendships and loyalty they've established within their guilds 
- the desire to maintain the competition at top level play that encourages and entertains 
- beating the game at a level very few others aim for or achieve

You might as well ask them to uninstall the game. 

Nothing is stopping them from doing this...it's just likely to take them longer. I see nothing wrong with that.

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2 minutes ago, Calysia said:

I prefer personal loot over wasting a half hour every raid passing loot out. It hasn't set us back any in progression either.

That's fine, but the option for Master Loot should have stayed. Personal loot helps a lot of players and guilds feel like they're getting something out of the game without having to raid for weeks before finally getting a chance to bid on something with DKP for example, and I understand that, but consistent and planned loot distribution has perks as well.  

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2 minutes ago, Plergoth said:

That's fine, but the option for Master Loot should have stayed. Personal loot helps a lot of players and guilds feel like they're getting something out of the game without having to raid for weeks before finally getting a chance to bid on something with DKP for example, and I understand that, but consistent and planned loot distribution has perks as well.  

In a perfect world it should have. Unfortunately people abused it...that's why we can't have nice things. ? 

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      Remorse - Flagellation causes the tormented target to be lashed 2 1 additional times every 1 sec. Spiked Lashes - Flagellation now grants you 1% Haste per stack, up to a maximum of 30% 40% Haste. Covenant Abilities
      Flagellation - Lash the target for [ 100% of Attack Power ] Shadow damage, causing combo points you spend within the next 12 sec to lash them for [ 100% of Attack Power ]. Damage dealt by Flagellation increases your Haste by 0% 10%, lasting 12 sec after their torment fades. Legendary Powers
      Concealed Blunderbuss - When Sinister Strike hits an additional time, there is a 40% chance that your next Pistol Shot will fire 2 3 additional times. Essence of Bloodfang - Your combo point generating abilities have a chance to infect the target with Bloodfang, causing [ 741% 74.1% of Attack Power ] Bleed damage over 6 sec, and healing you for 50% of the damage dealt. Shaman
      Restoration
      Mana Tide Totem - Summons a Mana Tide Totem at the feet of the caster for 8 sec, granting 100% increased mana regeneration to party and raid members allies within 10 yds. Anima Powers
      Deathseer Choker - Each active totem increases your damage and healing by 5% 10%. Legendary Powers
      Echoes of Great Sundering - When you cast Earth Shock, your next Earthquake will deal 100% 120% additional damage. Warlock
      Baseline
      Curse of Tongues - Forces the target to speak in Demonic, increasing the casting time of all spells by 30% for 30 60 sec. Demonology
      Call Dreadstalkers attack power increased by 10%, and Dreadbite and Dreadlash damage increased by 10%. Anima Powers
      Pact of Infernal Intimacy - Your summoned demons gain 100% health and damage immediately, and every time you ascend a floor, up to a maximum of 500%. This bonus is lost when the demon dies or is dismissed. PvP Talents
      Demon Armor - Protects the caster, increasing maximum health by 5% and increases armor by 120% 160%. Warrior
      Anima Powers
      Smoldering Inertia - Charge and Heroic Leap increase your damage done by 200% 100% for 4 6 sec.
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