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Season 17: An Ancient & Primal Guide

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With the Season of Nightmares in full swing, Blizzard posted a guide on Ancient and Primal items, where they highlight the difference between them and talk about the ongoing Seasonal bonus, which increases your damage dealt and reduces damage taken by a percentage for each Ancient you equip.

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Ancient items truly shine in Season 17: so long as you have no Set bonuses equipped, each Ancient you equip will provide you with a massive 750% boost to damage dealt and 4% reduction in damage taken. For those of you who may have taken a break from gathering loot recently, we thought a quick refresher was in order to clear up any confusion about the differences between Legendary, Ancient, and Primal Ancient items.

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In general, Ancient and Primal Ancient items are more powerful versions of Legendary items. They are identical to Legendary items except that their base attributes (damage or armor) and all non-percentile affixes roll higher values for both minimum and maximum possible rolls.

Ancient & Primal Ancient Items

  • The stats on these items will (generally) be tailored to the character class you are playing when the item drops
  • Set items are also able to roll as both Ancient and Primal Ancient
  • You can’t equip more than one item with the same name, even if one is Ancient and the other isn’t
  • Any percentage-based affix will not be boosted (such as Attack Speed, bonus % to skills or % Critical Hit Chance/Damage)

Ancient Items

  • Only drop for characters who have reached level 70, and only on Torment level difficulties
  • When dropped, Ancient items share the same orange glow as regular Legendaries
    • You must identify the item to see if it’s an Ancient
    • Once identified, Ancient items have an orange border (or green for Set items) around the item tooltip and say "Ancient" in the item description.
  • They drop from all sources including monsters, chests, Kadala, Horadric Caches, Kanai's Cube, and even crafting at the Blacksmith or Jeweler

Primal Ancient Items

  • When dropped, Primal Ancient items have a red beam and glow
  • Drops from any source of Legendary item in the game, including Horadric Caches, Kadala, and Kanai's Cube, but only after having successfully completed at least a level 70 Greater Rift solo
  • These items are much rarer than Ancient items and have perfect Ancient-level stats on all affixes, including the item’s Legendary Power

Primal Ancients & Developer Philosophy

Primal Ancients are for players who have largely completed gearing for their build or finished their Season Journey but want to continue playing. They’re also for non-Seasonal players who have great gear and spend most of their time gaining Paragon Levels and upgrading Legendary Gems. We wanted to extend the excitement of seeing gear drop or spending Blood Shards at Kadala beyond obtaining Ancients in every slot. Primals provide an avenue for dedicated players to complete a build, without feeling like required upgrades.

We hope that answers any questions you may have about Ancients and Primal Ancients. Now go get ‘em!

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Primal ancients don't really have any use beyond looking cool. The problem is that even if u get a useful primal, it's likely to be worse than the regular ancient u have, because of a wrong stat. They should make primal always reforge to primal. Or come up with another way to make them relevant but not required. Instead they made them not required by making them irrelevant. Fail.

Edited by pwnz0r

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8 hours ago, pwnz0r said:

Primal ancients don't really have any use beyond looking cool. The problem is that even if u get a useful primal, it's likely to be worse than the regular ancient u have, because of a wrong stat. They should make primal always reforge to primal. Or come up with another way to make them relevant but not required. Instead they made them not required by making them irrelevant. Fail.

I disagree with this. Even with imperfect stats, a primal weapon is still amazing because of max main stat, max damage range and max legendary affix. Especially on items that have massive ranges, things like Deathwish, for example.

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You can disagree all you want, but i'm telling you, by the time you get such a primal, you'll already have a very close to primal rolled ancient with the right stats. Also, read better my previous post 'cos i clearly stated my point there already, which you clearly missed.

Which is like super lame 'cos, if you think about it, a regular ancient can be an upgrade to a primal.

Although, primal were meant to be more powerful (rolling higher min-max values, like with ancients vs normal legs), but because botters and ppl playing 18h/day would have had an unfair advantage vs casuals, 'cos of the low drop rate, blizz backtracked after community backlash, and did some cheapo damage control by making them useless.

Edited by pwnz0r

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16 hours ago, pwnz0r said:

You can disagree all you want, but i'm telling you, by the time you get such a primal, you'll already have a very close to primal rolled ancient with the right stats. Also, read better my previous post 'cos i clearly stated my point there already, which you clearly missed.

 

Maybe you have some problems with the English language (like I have myself), but your post said: Primals are likely to be worse then ancient items.

And Blainie is correct: With weapons that is definitly not the case.

Primal weapons are almost always better then ancient ones. Because they have perfect weapon range, perfect main attribute and perfect affix (if the weapon has such a thing).

Since those are in most cases the most important stuff for a weapon, you automatically fullfill most of what a weapon needs to have.

Then you can switch one attribute you do not like and you have:

1 perfect weapon range

1 perfect attribute of your choice

1 perfect main attribute

1 perfect affix (if avaiable)

Chances of this being better then any ancient item you have are huge.

 

However, with other equipment it is different - there is a high chance you have 2 (or even 3) attributes you do not want. Even with changing one it you still miss at least one important attribute. -> making it worse then a well rolled ancient item.

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That's not true, you guys don't play the game, that's evident by your faulty reasoning. Especially for weapons, you lose a lot more dps by having a wrong stat (eg. missing area damage, cdr, rcr, attack speed etc.), than having the min-max ranges a little lower than primal. Just run any build on d3planner and you'll see.

I don't have much of a problem with english, read better:

On 5/27/2019 at 9:53 AM, pwnz0r said:

The problem is that even if u get a useful primal, it's likely to be worse than the regular ancient u have, because of a wrong stat.

On 5/27/2019 at 6:26 PM, pwnz0r said:

by the time you get such a primal, you'll already have a very close to primal rolled ancient with the right stats.

Maybe i failed to point out that i meant having a wrong stat after you already rolled one on the primal. Which means it originally drops with more than one wrong stat, but that is pretty much implied, if one knows the game.

EDIT: Also, almost everyone sees a legendary affix roll of 400% vs 300% as giving double, 100% more, increased damage. When in fact it's just 25% effective damage boost. Even less % if you have equipped more than one item that are adding to the same affix.

Edited by pwnz0r

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Let's take a look at the necessary stats.

IK Hammer of the Ancients Barb:

  •  
  1. Socket (preferably from Ramaladni's GiftRamaladni's Gift)
  2. Weapon Damage
  3. Strength
  4. Area Damage
  5. Increased Attack Speed
  6. Damage %

Your primal will give you:

1, check

2, check

3, check

4 in doubt

5 in doubt

6 in doubt

even if you are extremly unlucky, you can reroll one into are damage.

Giving you the first 4 stats.

 

Wizard, ARchon, Vyr

  •  
  1. High Base Weapon Damage
  2. Intelligence
  3. Socket (preferably from Ramaladni's GiftRamaladni's Gift)
  4. Cooldown Reduction
  5. % Weapon Damage
  6. Life per Hit

 

1. check

2. check

3. check

4 in doubt

5. in doubt

6. in doubt

 

again, by even if you are unlucky with the stats you have at least the 4 most important stats

 

Deamon Hunter, Nataliya Marauder Sentry:

  •  
  1. Socket (preferably from Ramaladni's GiftRamaladni's Gift)
  2. Weapon Damage
  3. Dexterity
  4. % Weapon Damage
  5. Vitality
  6. Resource Cost Reduction

 

1. check

2. check

3. check

4. in doubt

5. in doubt

6. in doubt

 

and - what a huge surprise - we have again the first 4 stats guaranteed.

 

All 3 examples are some of the strongest builds avaiable at the moment.

 

But hey, why am I waisting my time? Obviously you are not interested in facts.

What you say is true for non-weapon items.

For weapons, an ancient one is almost always better then a non-ancient one.

 

23 hours ago, pwnz0r said:

 

EDIT: Also, almost everyone sees a legendary affix roll of 400% vs 300% as giving double, 100% more, increased damage. When in fact it's just 25% effective damage boost. Even less % if you have equipped more than one item that are adding to the same affix.

 

 

Thank you for stating something obvious.

And yeah, 15-25% damage increase is absolutly nothing, yeah sure.

 

Edited by Guest

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You just confirmed what i was saying, having an ancient with perfect attributes and above average mi-max values, will always beat a primal that does not have perfect attributes. Just run it on d3planner and the numbers will show.

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On 5/29/2019 at 12:07 PM, pwnz0r said:

You just confirmed what i was saying, having an ancient with perfect attributes and above average mi-max values, will always beat a primal that does not have perfect attributes. Just run it on d3planner and the numbers will show.

Well yeah.

If you comapre it to a (close to) perfectly rolled ancient: Perfect stats, near perfect values, high min-max range.

Sure, Primal can't be better then.

But: What are your chances of a "perfect" ancient? I played quite a lot (several hundred hours) of D3 and I have decent ancient weapons. (3 chars)

But not perfect ones. After several hundred hours.

Maybe your chance of getting a perfect ancient is higher then getting a primal weapon.

But how many players have a "perfect" ancient? I have no idea, but it won't be that many.

 

And for every other player (which will be how many? 95%?) a primal weapon will be better and a great find.

Are primals absolutly awesome? Are they as game-changing as ancient have been when they were implemented?

No, absolutly not. Not enough impact, way too rare and in most cases worse then ancients.

Are they completly useless?

Not as a weapon, as a weapon they will benefit most players.

For other gear-slots: Yeah, they are useless.

 

However, I totally agree with one thing: Reforging a primal should definitly result in a primal again.

 

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As someone who plays seasons almost exclusively, averaging around 100 hours per season (casual player category obviously), if a primal weapon of a top tier spec drops, it get's used.  I switch to that spec if needed - it makes that much of a difference given my level of play.  100 hours is just not enough time, on average, to get the high quality ancient that would be required to replace it.  Regardless, given enough time a primal that was better than a perfect ancient would eventually drop. 

I think the strongest evidence against your argument are the leaderboards.  I just went and checked the seasonal boards for the top players among DH, WD, Crusader and Barbs (I'm not going to check them all) and I see a lot of primals being used.  When I check the normal boards, I see even more primals in use on average.

 

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Sure, but you can't draw conclusions from some data that's circumstantial at best. So, it happens that, this season, some meta builds benefit from those weapons' guaranteed (to drop with) attributes. So every primal is basically (almost) guaranteed to be better (vs ancients) for some meta builds, for the current season. Next season, patch, who knows.

Still, even without counting the cost to benefit of primals, it feels lame that a 'perfect attributes' ancient can easily beat a 'crappy attributes' primal.

Edited by pwnz0r

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Hey guys, i read the topic and some comments here, you are all telling right about ancients and primals, but there is something that we are not paying attention, the primals are the ancients with max stats,

so if you are comparing a primal with an "ideal" ancient item, ofc that ancient item is better.

But if we compare casual drops for primals vs normal ancients that we get, primals are better. Unless the stats you want has some priority. Sometimes i do not change my normal legendary item with ancients with bad rolls, its a huge damage drop. Unless i get the stats that i want.

And i do not compare the case that both are "ideal" so we know the answer already.

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      Firebird's Finery 2-Piece Set: When you die, a meteor falls from the sky and revives you. Disintegrate Ignites enemies, causing them to take 3000% weapon damage per second until they die. Firebird's Finery 4-Piece Set: You gain 80% damage reduction and 4000% increased damage while Ignite is applied to a target. Casting Disintegrate adds Combustion stacks that reduce the cooldown of Teleport by 2% per stack. Stacks up to 50 times. Firebird's Finery 6-Piece Set: Hitting an Ignited enemy with a fire spell other than Disintegrate deals Ignite damage multiplied by Combustion stacks. Developer's Note: Firebird’s Finery is due for a rebirth. We have overhauled the set to breathe new life into it while still allowing the player to incinerate the forces of Hell.
      Gears of Dreadlands 6-Piece Set: Hungering Arrow pierces a maximum of 2 times while wearing the Gears of Dreadlands Developer's Note: We toned down the number of pierces Hungering Arrow can perform while Gears of Dreadlands is equipped to address concerns when interacting with Missile Dampening.
      Gazing Demise: The damage of Spirit Barrage is increased by 100% to 150%. Spirit Barrage gains the Phantasm rune that lasts twice as long, and the attack rate from Manitou spectres is increased. Developer's Note: Mundunugu’s Regalia is overperforming compared to other sets. This change to Gazing Demise should simplify the gameplay mechanic while reducing its damage output.
      Blackthorn's Jousting Mail: Replaced one primary property with a random elemental damage affix. Class Set Dungeon Update
      To account for the Necromancer redesign of the Bones of Rathma set, we have updated the objective to "Revive 100 Corpses" from the current "Raise 100 Skeletal Mages". Return to Top
      Bug Fixes
      Return to Top
      How to Participate
      To participate in the public test, you must have a Diablo III game license attached to a Battle.net account in good standing (i.e. one that hasn't been suspended or banned). In addition, you will also need to download and install the Blizzard Battle.net desktop app if you have not already done so.
      Step 1: Restart the Battle.net desktop app.
      Step 2: Navigate to the Diablo III tab on the left-hand menu.
      Step 3: On the Diablo III screen, there is a drop-down menu right above the "Play" button (note that this may say "Install" if you do not have Diablo III currently installed). Select "PTR: Diablo III" from this drop-down menu before proceeding.
      Step 4: Click Install to begin the installation process.
      Your PTR account will be created automatically if you do not already have one. The PTR is available in all supported languages, and accounts from all regions are eligible to participate. For additional assistance with installing and launching the PTR, click here.
      Return to Top
      PTR Character Copy
      The option to copy your existing Diablo III characters from your live account to the PTR will be available and can be done directly through the PTR client. However, only one region per account can be copied at a time. So, if you choose to copy characters from your account in a different region, any previously copied PTR characters will be lost.
      Step 1: Log into the live game and then log out.
      Step 2: Log into PTR client and create a level 1 character. After you're done, return to the main character screen.
      Step 3: Click on the "PTR Copy" button located in the upper right-hand corner. (The PTR Copy button will not appear in-game until you have created a new level 1 character.)
      Step 4: Select your region.
      Step 5: Click "Copy." This will copy all characters on your account from the selected region.
      Step 6: You will be disconnected from the PTR client.
      Step 7: Log back in. Your copied characters will be available for play.
      Please note that you can only copy characters from one gameplay region at a time. If you choose to copy characters from a different region, any previously copied PTR characters will be lost. In addition, you can only copy characters over to your PTR account once every 24 hours. Attempting to copy characters before this cooldown is up will result in an error.
      Return to Top
      As this is a test server, please anticipate uneven game performance, and note that restarts and downtime may occur without warning. Thank you, and we look forward to your feedback!
    • By Staff
      There's more loot to be had in Season 22, as Blizzard have just doubled (most of) trasure goblin spawns for the remainder of the season!
      Goblins (source)
      For the rest of Season 22, all Treasure Goblin spawns will be doubled. This means that each time you encounter a Treasure Goblin in the wild, they’ll be accompanied by an exact duplicate of themselves for two times the loot, chaos, and fun!
      There are a few important details to keep in mind with this effect:
      This does not affect goblins encountered via Bandit Shrines, Goblin “Rift” packs, or in the Realm of Greed. Duplicate Whimsydale portals created by the Rainbow Goblin will enter the same instance of Whimsydale. The Insufferable Miscreant is not affected by this buff; this is intended. Need a refresher on the various types of Treasure Goblins and what they do? Be sure to check out our Game Guide 43 for more information. We’ll otherwise see you in Sanctuary!
    • By Staff
      Diablo's anniversary event, the Darkening of Tristram ends January 31.
      (Source)
      Whether you’re a series veteran craving nostalgia, or a newcomer hungry for your first taste of the franchise’s past, this annual loving homage to the earliest days of Diablo is for you.
      Read on for more, including a closer look at the anniversary dungeon and its unique rewards.

      Stop the Cultists
      Your journey begins on the trail of a group of mysterious cultists causing trouble in Sanctuary. As you hunt them down in Adventure Mode, you’ll uncover clues leading to a portal into Tristram’s past, and the terrifying darkness that took hold of the town so many years ago. . . .

      Explore the Cathedral
      Follow the clues and you’ll soon find yourself in a realm of glorious RetroVision™, where an all-too-familiar cathedral looms. Explore the depths and you’ll discover familiar enemies and iconic items, all brought to life in the Diablo III engine. Meanwhile, deep beneath the catacombs, the Dark Lord himself awaits any intrepid adventurer who dares to challenge him. . . .

      Discover Precious Loot
      What is a Diablo game without shiny new loot to call your own? Completing activities in the anniversary event yields unique transmogrification effects, achievements, portraits, pets, and more.
      While some rewards are easy to find, others may have you scouring every nook or unlocking every achievement before you can get your hands on them. Can you earn them all? There’s only one way to find out!

      Your Journey Begins…
      Exclusive rewards and challenging enemies await you, but they won’t last forever! The cultists will appear on December 31 at 4 p.m. PST, and the portal opens January 3 at the same hour. Both parts of the event end January 31 at 4 p.m. PST.
      Enter the dungeon, reap your rewards, and survive the evils within—or die in the process, never to be heard from again. . . .
    • By Staff
      Diablo's anniversary is almost here and the Darkening of Tristam event returns January 3.
      (Source)
      Diablo’s anniversary is right around the corner, along with the Darkening of Tristram event! Whether you’re a series veteran craving nostalgia, or a newcomer hungry for your first taste of the franchise’s past, this annual loving homage to the earliest days of Diablo is for you.
      Read on for more, including a closer look at the anniversary dungeon and its unique rewards.

      Stop the Cultists
      Your journey begins on the trail of a group of mysterious cultists causing trouble in Sanctuary. As you hunt them down in Adventure Mode, you’ll uncover clues leading to a portal into Tristram’s past, and the terrifying darkness that took hold of the town so many years ago. . . .

      Explore the Cathedral
      Follow the clues and you’ll soon find yourself in a realm of glorious RetroVision™, where an all-too-familiar cathedral looms. Explore the depths and you’ll discover familiar enemies and iconic items, all brought to life in the Diablo III engine. Meanwhile, deep beneath the catacombs, the Dark Lord himself awaits any intrepid adventurer who dares to challenge him. . . .

      Discover Precious Loot
      What is a Diablo game without shiny new loot to call your own? Completing activities in the anniversary event yields unique transmogrification effects, achievements, portraits, pets, and more.
      While some rewards are easy to find, others may have you scouring every nook or unlocking every achievement before you can get your hands on them. Can you earn them all? There’s only one way to find out!

      Your Journey Begins…
      Exclusive rewards and challenging enemies await you, but they won’t last forever! The cultists will appear on December 31 at 4 p.m. PST, and the portal opens January 3 at the same hour. Both parts of the event end January 31 at 4 p.m. PST.
      Enter the dungeon, reap your rewards, and survive the evils within—or die in the process, never to be heard from again. . . .
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