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DPS Paladin 1.12 (Classic)

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This thread is for comments and feedback concerning our guide to DPS as a Paladin in WoW Classic.

 

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3 hours ago, Powermetalhank said:

Hi, Would it be possible for the Icy-Veins crew to take a look at the Spelladin stuff going around?

https://classicwow.live/guides/314/spelladin-raid-dps-pre-bis-phase-1-new-meta

Im not expecting ret to do competetive DPS, but i am wondering about an alternative to regular melee dps.

Thanks

Letting Impakt know 🙂

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Yeah, I've been following it.

 

From what I've seen and heard about it, I'm excited to see how it does. However, I've also made the choice to only include it as a small footnote in the guide for now. Historically this has not been a heavily played spec, and I have yet to see real results for what this could do. Most of the work is purely theorycrafting at this point. As soon as we get some Molten Core logs on WoW Classic where we can see how it performs, I'll absolutely immediately revamp the guide to include it if it ends up being viable.

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29 minutes ago, Impakt said:

Yeah, I've been following it.

 

From what I've seen and heard about it, I'm excited to see how it does. However, I've also made the choice to only include it as a small footnote in the guide for now. Historically this has not been a heavily played spec, and I have yet to see real results for what this could do. Most of the work is purely theorycrafting at this point. As soon as we get some Molten Core logs on WoW Classic where we can see how it performs, I'll absolutely immediately revamp the guide to include it if it ends up being viable.

The spelladin meta has been reproduced on pserver with positive results. If I am remember correctly, if we assume the ABSOLUTE worst case scenario spelladin  averages at 34 more dps over normal stuff. Best case scenario is the paladin Mog who regularly outdamaged regular paladins by +175dps! To say a spelladin is not viable is hilariously undervaluing it. 

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I actually did Ret Dps back in Vanilla, late 2004 up to BC, literally only played Ret Pally until 2012 when I stopped on Burning Blade. I mainly was a PvPer but I did raid the 40 man raids regularly as dps. I can provide witnesses if necessary, however I’m not here to brag or anything, I mainly here because I did it because I loved the spec, and because people told me I couldn’t. Anyway just validating that the spec if you think outside the box does work as a unconventional meta dps.  I guess that’s how I would term at the time being it’s not considered one.   

I’m just going off how it was for me back then so if things changed or I missed something in your guide then feel free to discount my information from your theory. I found it to fall into a multi-role spec, basically focused on dps, but depending on the situation, I would support healers if needed, either keep them alive or backup heal to allow them to recover, or I remember on a few accounts emergency tank, but that usually was a last resort to prevent wiping right before the boss was killed.  If it was earlier in a fight generally it would wipe.  

At equal epic Gear lvl matched with other dps classes, I found Ret while clearing trash generally places top 1-5 dps because you can go all out, best case on boss fights was top 5, but generally I fell somewhere in the top 10 because if I couldn’t stay on the boss in some phases, or had to support, It obviously dropped down.  I do remember being in top 3 in some cases and maybe top like once but that could of been a fluke lol. 

But if I was not, I can or would be somewhere in the middle on healing usually as a trade off.  Not only dps, you’re expected to Never let a healer die first and keep a tank alive at the last minute with LOH.  

From my results, I found a lot of factors that also happen when dealing with 40 other people.  So I always felt results can improve if everything happened the way it was supposed to.  But either case you have to have the ability to recognize changing situations and adapt.  The only complete gear set I personally eventually obtained was the AQ gear, but that was closer to BC time, so I don’t have much information from that unfortunately.  

Otherwise discounting that, before that point I basically geared like a warrior would and carried a ton of supplies and extra gear.  You’re mana pool is going to take a huge hit if you’re trying to be competitive dps. If you’re not good at mana management with gear outside tier gear you won’t be.

So again, I missed something in your guide, I would say the majority it is correct and should work.  Unfortunately I don’t have informational resources to provide from back then.  It was a lot of trial and error for me, so I can’t say rather or not your approach is better.  However my mental approach is pretty similar to yours so again it should work. The only difference in option, and correct me if I’m off, is this is only optimal conditions if you’re able to obtain gear.  

If you roll Ret you’re going to work for it and invest a lot of time to make it work. You’ll work even harder to prove people wrong, you’ll probably won’t be full on doing dps in every situation.  So you’ll have realize when that happens and adapt, and you’re definitely going to deal with a lot of people’s stigma that it doesn’t work because you’re not conventional meta dps.  I was stubborn and was lucky to have a guild that rolled with it which is why it worked.  If you don’t not have support from your guild no matter what you do it won’t work.

Anyway hopefully my information and testimony makes since or helps in proving the theory Ret is viable even if it’s unique. I’m playing Ret again in classic, however I could be past my prime to do what I did all those years ago, I’m still going to try but I’m going to leave it to someone else to provide results.  I’ve already done it and know where Ret dps fall into. 

Edited by Missionman
Updating information

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18 hours ago, Missionman said:

 

Sorry if my post is a bit long, also I’m mentioning Ret because that’s what I played and I saw spelladin mentioned some where, it wasn’t a term I remember being used back then, so I’m assuming it’s based on both Ret and the Shockadin which were the two types back then.  

Also I don’t recall limited mobility being a weakness I thought I got around fine. But I would say limited range was more of one if I didn’t missed that in your guide. 

Edited by Missionman

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Thanks Mission, that's helpful. I think I agree with what you're saying pretty well, Ret is viable, but it takes lots of time and effort to make it work, more so than other "meta" classes like Warrior and Rogue.

 

For Reference, Spelladin refers to the newer Ret Paladin build where you stack spell power, use a fast weapon, and use Seal of Righteousness + Judgement for the holy damage. Consumables are incredibly important for this build, specifically Shadow Oil. The idea is that you attack quickly, frequently proccing SoR and Shadow oil, with spell power affecting both of those.

 

And thanks for the post Caperfin - I do agree that spelladin has seen some awesome results on private servers. For off-meta builds like that though I'm hesitant to revamp my guide until I see actual results on WoW Classic. As we've already seen, lots of things have changed between private servers and WoW Classic, and I think it'd be premature to switch. Remember, WoW Classic is probably going to be active for the next 2 years as the phases roll out; I'm just saying that I'm going to wait 1-2 weeks to get some MC logs with spelladin parses before adding it as an official guide. I truly hope you're right and it ends up being great, I love the build. 

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52 minutes ago, Impakt said:

Thanks Mission, that's helpful. I think I agree with what you're saying pretty well, Ret is viable, but it takes lots of time and effort to make it work, more so than other "meta" classes like Warrior and Rogue.

 

For Reference, Spelladin refers to the newer Ret Paladin build where you stack spell power, use a fast weapon, and use Seal of Righteousness + Judgement for the holy damage. Consumables are incredibly important for this build, specifically Shadow Oil. The idea is that you attack quickly, frequently proccing SoR and Shadow oil, with spell power affecting both of those.

 

And thanks for the post Caperfin - I do agree that spelladin has seen some awesome results on private servers. For off-meta builds like that though I'm hesitant to revamp my guide until I see actual results on WoW Classic. As we've already seen, lots of things have changed between private servers and WoW Classic, and I think it'd be premature to switch. Remember, WoW Classic is probably going to be active for the next 2 years as the phases roll out; I'm just saying that I'm going to wait 1-2 weeks to get some MC logs with spelladin parses before adding it as an official guide. I truly hope you're right and it ends up being great, I love the build. 

Thanks for explaining what the spelladin is, it actually sounds like a interesting concept that makes sense actually. Anyway I hope your guide gets more attention, I think it’s a great approach to get people’s foot in the door, makes it easier with some sort of evidence to back it. I’ll definitely refer it anyone that I find that have the dedication I once had to Pally dps to hopefully get the results you’re looking for. 

Edited by Missionman

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